Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

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Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 23 Oct 2008 - 21:36

I understand that most of us view the manga and the two animated series as being "canon".

I accept this and follow this, except where the anime contradicts the manga since I feel the author's own "words" must have precedence. And while Yu did write the screenplays for Il Teatro, he didn't write them for the first series.

As such, I have a question about manga Chapters 08 and 33 and Episode 12 of the first animated series.

Episode 12 is "based on" Chapter 08. Since Chapter 8 is too short to make into a 22-minute animated show, they had to come up with more, which is the "kidnapping" of Claes and the attack on the terrorist hideout in the mountains to the north of the Province of Rome.

Normally, no problem. However, in manga Chapter 33, Yu notes (on Page 33) "And so she (Claes) was able to go out of the entrapment of the organization for the first time" when she goes to Piedmont on Lake Maggiore.

Now I have always interpreted that line to mean it was the first time Claes left the compound since Raballo's death. And we have neither seen Claes outside of the compound since manga Chapter 6 nor has it ever been implied she had left.

Which means, effectively, Episode 12 never happened (IMO) because it contradicts the manga's continuity (as defined in Chapter 08). Yes, we could just assume Chapter 12 happened in December of the same year as chapter 8 and not the previous (as the manga timeline sets), but that would also require us to assume the events of the previous December happened again the following December, and nobody took notice. sweat

I wonder if we could not interpret Yu's words to mean that it was the first time Claes could leave the compound while not on a mission. So Episode 12 would be an example of a time of her being "entrapped by the organization" and doing their bidding. That way, Episode 12 could have happened (at the same time as Chapter 08) by allowing Claes out on a mission while not contradicting the words of Chapter 33.
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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 23 Oct 2008 - 22:15

Kiskaloo wrote:I wonder if we could not interpret Yu's words to mean that it was the first time Claes could leave the compound while not on a mission. So Episode 12 would be an example of a time of her being "entrapped by the organization" and doing their bidding. That way, Episode 12 could have happened (at the same time as Chapter 08) by allowing Claes out on a mission while not contradicting the words of Chapter 33.
I'm going with this. The events of Episode 12 are too awesome to pass up.

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 23 Oct 2008 - 22:31

If you are going by the scandelations version of the Manga, it is not perfect.
Furthermore, the American Version of the Manga says something different from the scandelation version of Chapter 8. Volumes past 6 (which includes Chapter 33) has yet to come out in the offical English version. So we cant say that was exactly said.

The scandelations, though great in their work are slightly flawed. The Chapter 33 scandelation says that this is her first time, I find that to be a mistake in that she was not taken out for a mission until after the fact. Claes was taken out as a test originally, and perhaps this was what was meant by her first time (outside of a mission)

Since before Chapter 33, Jean and others has been hinting about getting her things like clothes and stuff. It would be very hard to buy her stuff and give it to her to see if it fits or if she even likes it. I believe that they take her out to buy the things she needs. Then there is Episode 12.

Everything has an order. Chapter 8 and Episodes 12 & 13 are tied. That is how I see it, and rationalize that part of reality.

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Danjo3 on Fri 24 Oct 2008 - 1:19

Iíve always considered episode 12 as being nothing more then filler. I find it hard to believe it was Yuís idea, not only because it doesnít jive with the manga, but also for the simple fact that Claes is so very OOC. I think the production company just wanted to add some finale action so they came up with that crap. In other words, I donít consider it canon.

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 24 Oct 2008 - 10:02

Danjo3 wrote:Iíve always considered episode 12 as being nothing more then filler. I find it hard to believe it was Yuís idea, not only because it doesnít jive with the manga, but also for the simple fact that Claes is so very OOC. I think the production company just wanted to add some finale action so they came up with that crap. In other words, I donít consider it canon.

I don't believe Yu had any real input into the first anime series stories. On the flip side, they really had little to work with. Yu had only completed 12 chapters of the manga by the time the anime went to production and the last two chapters were about Angelica's background. So I can understand why they kind of wanted to "go out with a bang" with all the girls. I just wish they'd spent a bit more time on realism and not kept the girls all dressed in their "day to day outfits" which were totally ridiculous for such a mission - heck, they even acknowledged their own stupidity by having Angelica, in her ballerina flats, slip on the icy roof. And Marco has the gall to look upset with her. bang head


Personally, I don't really see Claes as being OOC in the episode. I have to believe she has at least basic Close-Quarters-Combat training and that is what she used to disable to the guard. At that point, she could have taken his weapon, but she didn't, instead choosing to use the fireplace iron as a non-lethal weapon. And I believe she was trying to extricate herself from the building at that point, and not go around trying to hunt the kidnappers.

So even there, she was acting within the character limits Yu sets in Chapter 34 almost three years later. Angelica was likely the better match for the girl then Claes, so I expect the original plan was to use Angelica, but then she twisted her ankle (which is interesting - how do you twist artificial muscles and ligaments with such a minor slip?).
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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Danjo3 on Fri 24 Oct 2008 - 10:55

Iím sorry, but I canít see Jean using canon Claes in such a key position. There would be far too much danger of her fucking up and getting everyone killed. Angie yes. Claes, noooo.
Kiskaloo wrote:Personally, I don't really see Claes as being OOC in the episode. I have to believe she has at least basic Close-Quarters-Combat training and that is what she used to disable to the guard.
At one time yes, she did have basic CQB training, but not anymore. That was all lost when they dry cleaned her noodle. Again, look at her performance in chap.34 (canon Claes). Now compare it to ep.12 (filler Claes). Theyíre definitely not the same girl.

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 24 Oct 2008 - 12:05

Danjo3 wrote:Iím sorry, but I canít see Jean using canon Claes in such a key position. There would be far too much danger of her fucking up and getting everyone killed. Angie yes. Claes, noooo.

But "canon Claes" in 2003 (when the anime was scripted) was different then "canon Claes" in 2006 (when Chapter 34 was published in Dengeki Daioh). And heck, the anime made Angelica look more...incompetent...then it did Claes, though in the manga we knew precious little about either of them. I mean if you want to go with "dangerous", sending in Henrietta was the risk since she shoots first and asks questions a week later - behavior she showed in that episode...


At one time yes, she did have basic CQB training, but not anymore. That was all lost when they dry cleaned her noodle. Again, look at her performance in chap.34 (canon Claes). Now compare it to ep.12 (filler Claes). Theyíre definitely not the same girl.


I would argue that they didn't wipe her CQB training. And I believe that Chapter 34 backs that up. She defended herself against the terrorist's gun and knife attack in CQB. She even successfully executed an attack position, though she did not follow through and pull the trigger.

And again, in Chapter 12, Claes was not a "bad ass". She disabled her opponent. She could have killed him (snapped his neck), but she didn't. She could have taken his submachine gun, but she didn't. Instead, she took a weapon that was effectively non-lethal and used it accordingly. And she used it to support her escape. She did not start hunting terrorists. She only attacked that second one because he blocked her exit and she had Angelica trapped at gunpoint. Angelica, who ran off on her own initiative and put herself in position to be wounded.


One simple rule: In situations where the anime doesnít agree with the manga, always go with the manga.

Agreed. But if we can...rationalize...the two without too much convolution, I support doing so.

And I don't really see how Claes acted in Episode 12 being that OOC. If she'd grabbed the submachine gun and gone "Rambo" on the terrorists, then yes, I'd say "no sale" and dismiss Episode 12 because it was clearly against how Claes has been portrayed - even if she hasn't been a central character of the manga, to say nothing of the anime.

Again, I don't believe that Claes is incapable of hurting anyone. Even if she believes that her promise compels her to "be nice" at all times (whether she has the glasses on or off), it seems clear that she at least has enough sense to realize that it doesn't mean she should just stand there and do nothing. That much of Raballo's training seems to have survived. Otherwise she should have done nothing on the boat.

And remember, she was wearing her glasses on the boat when she defended herself and when she pulled the gun. If the promise made her totally passive, she should not have been able to pull the gun and put it to her head in the first place, especially if it is defined by the glasses (which I don't believe it is).
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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 24 Oct 2008 - 21:51

Kiskaloo wrote:And again, in Chapter 12, Claes was not a "bad ass". She disabled her opponent. She could have killed him (snapped his neck), but she didn't. She could have taken his submachine gun, but she didn't. Instead, she took a weapon that was effectively non-lethal and used it accordingly. And she used it to support her escape. She did not start hunting terrorists. She only attacked that second one because he blocked her exit and she had Angelica trapped at gunpoint. Angelica, who ran off on her own initiative and put herself in position to be wounded.
Though premature in posting, I do it for this one bit.
Claes did kill her guard.

First she disabled with the angled side kick to his knees, which in my former training tells me that with the torn ligament and cartilidge damge done, even with state of the art surgeons, he will never walk right again.

Second blow was a kidney punch, which in Martial Arts & Boxing, is an illegal blow because it does cripple and can kill; especially if there is no immediate medical attention given.

Third blow to the back of the neck to dislocate the vertibres, pinch the spinal discs against the spinal cord, Lights out for the mofo- no getting up for the quadraplegelic at this point.

And this is with the strength of a normal human. Claes is a cyborg, 10X stronger than a human.

For the guard, that means- compund fractures added to the knees dual dislocation; Killer Blow to the Kidney, broken Vertibres (ugly snapping wood sound in the anime verifies it) in the neck which few survive from. In short, Episode 12 Claes was a killer.

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 24 Oct 2008 - 22:37

Nothing requires Claes to have used all her available strength.

I choose to believe she didn't go for the kill, but YMMV.
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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 24 Oct 2008 - 22:40

Is there any reason why she wouldn't have gone for the kill?

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 24 Oct 2008 - 22:44

Nachtsider wrote:Is there any reason why she wouldn't have gone for the kill?

Lack of need? Disabling him was sufficient to let her escape.

Plus even though it was created three years before Yu decided she can't kill, the fact is Yu has said she can't kill so I take that into account when watching Episode 12.

I suppose one could operate under the clause that the mission was to kill everyone, so it is possible Claes was instructed to kill, but then why not take the submachine gun?
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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 24 Oct 2008 - 22:46

Spur-of-the-moment ineptitude.

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 24 Oct 2008 - 22:48

Why send her on the mission then? Angelica could have easily been captured. Hell, why is a Senator's daughter walking the streets of Rome alone?
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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 24 Oct 2008 - 22:54

Claes was chosen for her resemblance to Catherine. And as for why Catherine was walking the streets of Rome alone, perhaps she and her family were never in any kind of danger prior to this incident.

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 24 Oct 2008 - 22:56

Angelica could have carried it off.

And I still think with the political instability of Italy as portrayed in GSG, no government official not in support of the PRF was going to just "whistle past the graveyard".
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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 1:11

Kiskaloo wrote:But "canon Claes" in 2003 (when the anime was scripted) was different then "canon Claes" in 2006 (when Chapter 34 was published in Dengeki Daioh).
Exactly. And thatís why I really believe that Yu had nothing to do with Ep.12.

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 10:55

Danjo3 wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:But "canon Claes" in 2003 (when the anime was scripted) was different then "canon Claes" in 2006 (when Chapter 34 was published in Dengeki Daioh).
Exactly. And thatís why I really believe that Yu had nothing to do with Ep.12.

Agreed. But I imagine he had little to do with any of the first animated series. So in your opinion, the whole first animated series (other then where it directly mimics the manga) should not be considered "canon" because he didn't have any thing to do with it?
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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by LoC978 on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 20:35

two quick points on ep.12 Claes... which I agree was a stunt to make the series end with a bang... though I do think Yu had input into the details of it; I just don't think he was the one who thought up the basic premise of the episode.

1. I really don't think reconditioning would wipe reflexes developed in close quarters combat training. Once you've trained in that for long enough, it's muscle memory and your subconscious that carries it off... not conscious action. Hence, I really don't think Claes was OOC for that episode.

2. I doubt she picked up the fire poker with the intention of using it against a person. She used it to knock out power in the building and then tried to escape. I got the impression that running into the guy that perforated Angelica was a (conveniently scripted) coincidence.

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 22:32

Kiskaloo wrote:Why send her on the mission then? Angelica could have easily been captured. Hell, why is a Senator's daughter walking the streets of Rome alone?
Angie was still recovering from her injury and begged Marco to get her into the mission. Claes was choosen (besides the obvious statement of her resembling Catherine) because Angie was still recovering.

As for Catherine roaming the streets of Rome, maybe she is that kind of girl...
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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by West Nile on Sun 26 Oct 2008 - 11:14

Or there could be a simpler explanation

Kiskaloo wrote:Normally, no problem. However, in manga Chapter 33, Yu notes (on Page 33) "And so she (Claes) was able to go out of the entrapment of the organization for the first time" when she goes to Piedmont on Lake Maggiore.

when they said "entrapment" they did not just mean the compound but the strict monitoring of the agency. We see Henrietta, Rico and Triela "get out of this entrapment" when they go on a vacation where they can do ANYTHING THEY WANT THAT IS SANE.

episode 12 was a mission, Claes couldn't interact with her surroundings because it would have been to risky, so she was still "entrapped" figuratively.

in chapter 33 they just left Claes on the doc to do what she sees fit. if she fealt like fishing she would have went to Jean and said "can i go fishing?" and Jean would have given her a rod. in short she was free to do what she sees fit, which was also probably what the agency wanted her to do, just to see if she can restore her own memories. so at that moment she was not only phsically freed but also she was alowed to exercise some free will.

LoC978 wrote:
2. I doubt she picked up the fire poker with the intention of using it against a person. She used it to knock out power in the building and then tried to escape. I got the impression that running into the guy that perforated Angelica was a (conveniently scripted) coincidence.


well taking a fire poker and intentionally taking the power out by it self does not seem to be something the SWA will tell her to do, unless they don't know that metal can conduct electricity. I think that was just something Claes saw as something she had to do... obviously her knoledge on how electricity works is not well versed

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Wileama on Sun 26 Oct 2008 - 11:28

I've personally always thought of the anime, and manga as parallel, but separate universe. In that way neither is wrong should they actually directly conflict. They are separate works with different considerations, and limitations. So the story is naturally going to be a bit different. So I leave it in a kind of quantum state. The answer changes depends on your measurement.

As to why Angelica should be sent on this anime mission. Simple, lets assume that things go tits up, tango foxtrot, the pooch gets fucked, things go wrong. What cyborg would you rather lose? Angelica who is still combat trained, or Claes who can't even pull the trigger in self defense? That's why Claes was sent, she was less useful, and thus more disposable.

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 26 Oct 2008 - 12:00

Wileama wrote: What cyborg would you rather lose? Angelica who is still combat trained, or Claes who can't even pull the trigger in self defense? That's why Claes was sent, she was less useful, and thus more disposable.
Thatís a wonderful theory Wileama, and it would have worked perfectly if it had played out this way - the attack starts and Claes hitís the floor and crawls under the nearest table and waits till itís all over. But as we all know it didnít happen that way. She became super Claes. To this day Iím still trying to figure out where that girl came from and where the hell she went.

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Wileama on Sun 26 Oct 2008 - 13:16

Well yes, and no. If you where to assume that they where the same character, yes one of them would seem out of character. I don't. You know it's quite the coincidence, I just got done watching a NOVA episode on parallel worlds. That's how I treat the anime, and the manga. They are two different characters. One was willing, and able to take action when placed in a similar situation that the other couldn't. So they are similar people, but yes they are not the same.

That doesn't bother me, I understand the anime producers didn't think they where going to have a second season. The anime was also more interested in having a wider appeal through more action scenes. That's just how it is.

Anyway I still say the theory holds up. You'll notice that Claes did pass up the submachine gun laying on the floor. Something I toss up to that promise she made. That, and until that mission actually occurred there was no guarantee that Claes would actually be able to act. Even if she where able to act it would pretty much be in that one instance, or ones very similar. While Angelica could still go on missions with her handler, murdering who ever the agency wants.

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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 26 Oct 2008 - 13:55

As to the poker, she might very well have been instructed to kill the power. The girls employed flash-bangs assaulting the compound and they would be most-effective in a darkened environment. Also, the girls are trained to fight with the advantage and I imagine they have superior low-light acuity so darkness would favor them and hinder the terrorists.

Did she risk electrocution when she slammed it into the fusebox? Maybe, maybe not. CFRP (at least the kind I am familiar with) doesn't conduct electricity all that well, so at worse she might have just burned her hands from the discharge. And breaking the fuses would have killed much of the current potential, so perhaps it wasn't much of a risk.
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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

Post by LoC978 on Sun 26 Oct 2008 - 21:55

also, those fuse boxes (like most modern ones) seemed to be encased in plastic. Moving that plastic to sever or short out the wires behind them put Claes at little risk of being shocked. I'd say the flashy electricity arcs that came out of the box as she disabled it are a symptom of the animators not knowing how electricity works. In reality you might get one or two arcs with a loud cracking sound and very little light, followed by melting plastic and an electrical fire.
But that's not as exciting or easily recognizable as multiple electricity arcs and a buzzing noise.
:lol!: @ Hollywood influenced media

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LoC978
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Re: Chapter 08+33 and First Season Episode 12

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