Martial Arts Training

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Martial Arts Training

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 16:56

I brought this subject up last night in chat and today I decided to do a bit more research on it.

It appears that certain members of the Italian Army, Carabinieri and Poliza de Stato are all taught Nippon Kempo (the military since 1985 and the Poliza de Stato since 2001) according to this link, which also notes that Nippon Kempo is exceptionally popular in Italy. So I think it is possible this is what Triela was learning in manga chapter 22 (and I swear one of the -Il Teatro- episodes, but I can't find the scene) since she was training at a Carabinieri facility.

Also, this year the Italian Army hired a 77-year old martial arts expert, Keiko Wakabayshi to train recruits in hand-to-hand combat. "Samurai Granny" is trained in jujitsu, jojitso, kenjitso, judo, kendo and karate.

Nachtsider was of the opinion that Rico knew Judo and it looks like Claes in Season 1 animated Episode 12 knew karate. Claes also knew some attack and defensive moves based on her "shower scene" with Petra and the boat on Lake Maggiore in Chapter 34.
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Re: Martial Arts Training

Post by Awinnell on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 19:34

the biggest trouble with the idea that the girls are martial arts experts is time,it takes years to learn enough to be an expert and the girls only have about 5 years of life left once they get cyborged !
i guess it wouldn't take long to learn enough to be dangerous to most people,but as was shown in the manga a properly trained fighter can overcome the girls strength and speed !

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Re: Martial Arts Training

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 19:48

I think you ought to consider the possibility that the girls could be superhumanly fast learners, Awinnell.

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Re: Martial Arts Training

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 20:14

While it is stated that the Generation 2 girls come pre-programmed with a good deal of things the Generation 1 girls did not, I still don't think it's as simple as just "jacking in" ala Neo in The Matrix to learn something. And frankly, even if it as simple as programming the Gen 2 girls with an encyclopedia of movements, I can't see how that would suddenly make them a Bruce Lee or Jet Li or Jackie Chan. And since the Gen1's can't be "directly programmed", it's kind of a moot point for most of the girls, anyway. So Triela and Claes and Rico all had to have learned their skills in a more traditional sense.

Triela is depending on her speed and power to defeat the GIS rookies in Chapter 22. When she faces the Major, an opponent with skill, he kicks her arse. Now, he does note that he can have her skills to a level sufficient to defeat Pinnochio in two weeks, but I tend to think that is because Pinnochio is only at a basic skill-set, himself.

Now I admit I don't participate in martial arts, but I know many friends and colleagues who do and they all know the moves, but they still need to practice a shed-load to be effective - and that is just in friendly competition, not life-and-death combat on the battlefield.

But then again, it's not like these girls need to be blackbelts. A basic set of offensive and defensive skills taught over a period of a few weeks seems to me to be sufficient, as the goal would be to assist when they find themselves in CQB.

After all, these are Gunslinger Girls. They kill by shooting people (the Tosca mission notwithstanding - and even then, Henrietta used a gun to kill the other guy in the bathroom in Episode 9 of -Il Teatro-).

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Re: Martial Arts Training

Post by LoC978 on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 20:40

...so essentially, they don't have to be experts. Superhuman strength and reflexes combined with a few weeks of intensive martial arts training makes for one incredibly dangerous opponent. Even to an actual expert.

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Re: Martial Arts Training

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 20:50

@LoC978 wrote:...so essentially, they don't have to be experts. Superhuman strength and reflexes combined with a few weeks of intensive martial arts training makes for one incredibly dangerous opponent. Even to an actual expert.

I imagine an actual expert would be able to hold their own, at least for a short while, thanks to their greater skills and experience. The GIS Major said their moves were "predictable" which is why he could keep Triela off-balance in melee-combat.

Again, I see it more as something the girls would use to acquire the advantage (Claes in Episode 12 and Rico on a few occasions) or to protect themselves if their opponent got in to close (Claes in Chapter 34, Triela and Pinocchio) and not as an active part of their normal repertoire.
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Re: Martial Arts Training

Post by Tommygunner70 on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 21:03

As per my expert (I still Consider myself to be a novice in comparison to my wife though.), there is no question of speed and strength, but I am wondering at the level of skill they have.

Sure, you can teach a guy how to throw a punch, but teaching him how to maximize the damage he puts out per punch is a different matter. I mean, learning or teaching someone how to but actual kinetics into the punch is a different manner. it is discovered, not taught.

I am sure that if the girls learned how to use Kinetics in their punches, they would do alot more damage per punch as currently their super human strength makes up for the lack of Kinetics.



Also, Extensive training in martial arts will definitely aid a Cyborg to have better control over their bodies. I bet that with long enough Training, 'Etta might just be able to learn Patience and not turn on her 'Berserker mode' that fast.

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Re: Martial Arts Training

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 21:06

@Tommygunner70 wrote:Also, Extensive training in martial arts will definitely aid a Cyborg to have better control over their bodies.

I agree. I could see them doing something like the modern wushu form of Tai chi chuan, where the emphasis is on the aesthetics of the moves. Learning the fine motor control skills necessary to do that and then continuously practicing them would likely be of great benefit to the girls learning their bodies.
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Re: Martial Arts Training

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 21:47

I was the one that said Claes was into Karate in the chat last night! Razz

The girls can be conditioned/programmed with that knowledge. But the problem still is taking whats in the brain and making it into mucsle action, and that requires training. The thing with marital arts is a lot more than just hitting and kicking while yelling your head off. It is being in control of one's actions and movements. It is being able to take a hit as well as giving it. What good will the girls be if in a fight and they get knocked out by the first blow they get hit by?

*Triela glares at Fernando sternly and mean.*

Oh. Yeah... I forgot... Sorry... RACHEL GET YOUR BUTT IN HERE AND SAVE YOUR DADDY!

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Re: Martial Arts Training

Post by Tommygunner70 on Sat 25 Oct 2008 - 23:19

@ElfenMagix wrote:I was the one that said Claes was into Karate in the chat last night! Razz

Little did you know Elfen, that I mentioned it to Kiskaloo a night earlier. seeing as I was plotting to get OC Thomas as Claes' Temporary handler, and where to take it. Martial arts were one of the main thing covered in that conversation.

But I believe that Nacht mentioned it too me as well prior to that.

@ElfenMagix wrote:The girls can be conditioned/programmed with that knowledge. But the problem still is taking whats in the brain and making it into mucsle action, and that requires training. The thing with marital arts is a lot more than just hitting and kicking while yelling your head off. It is being in control of one's actions and movements. It is being able to take a hit as well as giving it. What good will the girls be if in a fight and they get knocked out by the first blow they get hit by?

That's the point I was trying to make, but I couldn't really put it to words.

BTW: Triela is an example of that, as she got knocked out during her first encounter with Pino.

*Triela glares at Fernando sternly and mean.*

@ElfenMagix wrote:Oh. Yeah... I forgot... Sorry... RACHEL GET YOUR BUTT IN HERE AND SAVE YOUR DADDY!

Oh lolz...
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Re: Martial Arts Training

Post by Guest on Sun 26 Oct 2008 - 9:52

Speaking of martial arts, I was just thinking...

I think some of the moves the girls performed also shows evidence of Aikido--I think. The use of the enemy's strength into their advantage by diverting their attacks and use them to the user's advantage. To add, Aikido is a defensive type of martial arts--not offensive unlike Karate or Judo. I think it'll be legible to have them use that.

I train in Aikido once every Saturday. Once you reach blue belt I have to say damn it is tiring!

Oh, and don't underestimate us. I've seen a graduated senior school student last year knocked out a Karate practitioner during a school fight. I'm impressed at how he locked the guy in the ground Laughing :p

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Re: Martial Arts Training

Post by West Nile on Sun 26 Oct 2008 - 11:04

@ElfenMagix wrote:I was the one that said Claes was into Karate in the chat last night! Razz

The girls can be conditioned/programmed with that knowledge. But the problem still is taking whats in the brain and making it into mucsle action, and that requires training. The thing with marital arts is a lot more than just hitting and kicking while yelling your head off. It is being in control of one's actions and movements. It is being able to take a hit as well as giving it. What good will the girls be if in a fight and they get knocked out by the first blow they get hit by?

*Triela glares at Fernando sternly and mean.*

Oh. Yeah... I forgot... Sorry... RACHEL GET YOUR BUTT IN HERE AND SAVE YOUR DADDY!

Well in the case of martial arts for the girls, the same way that it does not take them very long to use a gun very effectively is the same way they can probably learn martial arts quickly as well.

but since most man vs cyborg girl confrontation starts and ends this way

man: hey arn't you just a gir------

i don't think martial arts would be necessary, unless we're talking about Pino who never really thought about that.

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Re: Martial Arts Training

Post by TTIO on Mon 27 Oct 2008 - 5:11

Panzer IV wrote:I think it'll be legible to have them use that.

Legible?

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