Something for Petra and the older girls...

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Awinnell on Tue 31 Mar 2009 - 18:42

@ElfenMagix wrote:I would say that this would only apply to Petra because she is not amoured, as Dr. Gulliani stated, 1)"For the Second Gneration, we left the upper torso untouched." and 2)"She will have a long life, as long as she does not get shot."

i believe he was only talking about her skeleton,thats why petra hurt herself stretching,her super strong muscles put to much strain on her pelvis,which does strike me as daft,especially as her arms must be cyborged as well

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 31 Mar 2009 - 19:42

@GP wrote:Maybe the 2nd gen need it more compared to the 1st, but why say that it only applies to the 2nd gen?

If you want the 1st gen to last long and need less conditioning then why not use something like the jacket posted a bit ago? Less damage also keeps costs down for the agency as well. It just seems like a win-win for me. And I find it silly that nothing like that is used for the 1st gen girls.

As assassins, the girls would be more effective having freedom of movement. Wearing heavy and thick bullet-resistant jackets would impede their movement. It would also look out of place in some situations - "why is that girl wearing a rain coast when it is 30 and sunny out?"

They appear to be armored to at least FMJ 7.62x39mm Russian, which means that pistol rounds already have minimal effect on them, so clothing rated for such rounds is probably superfluous.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Robert Frazer on Tue 31 Mar 2009 - 19:59

"why is that girl wearing a rain coast when it is 30 and sunny out?"

Maybe it's a double bluff? "No, there's no chance that that shady bloke in sunglasses, trenchcoat with a bulge at the waist, loose-fitting jacket, fedora and who keeps speaking into his wrist is a spy - it's just too obvious!" Wink


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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Awinnell on Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 6:47

but we know that they aren't well armoured, a standard 7.62 soviet round "shaved off part of her skin and artificial muscle" leading to the replacement of said muscle and skin in chapter 2 resulting in Henrietta having a large dose of the conditioning drug and all its side affects,we do know that an antipersonnel mine will cause damage and a truck bombs damage can be physically repaired, it was Angies poor neurological state that killed her,the biggest advantage the girls have with their injuries is that they seem insensitive to pain, to quote Henrietta "I feel pain but it fades quickly"

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 7:21

Can we at least agree that they're impervious to pistol ammo?

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 13:18

@Awinnell wrote:but we know that they aren't well armoured, a standard 7.62 soviet round "shaved off part of her skin and artificial muscle"...

Well you have to admit a 7.72x39mmR round impacting a human shoulder will inflict a good deal more damage then that. Wink

That being said, it is hard to determine just how tough they are. In Chapter 37, when the hit on Prosecutor Guellfi happens, the assassins are using silenced pistols and assault rifles. One would therefore assume they are using sub-sonic ammunition so that means much slower rounds and much lower impact energies.

A sub-sonic 9mm round would impact with less then 400J of energy which even Level 1 ballistic armor can stop with a backface deformation under 40mm.

I cannot find direct data on sub-sonic 5.56. One guy said it hit with about 1/7th the energy, which would be around 250J. Another guy said it was like .22LR which is under 100J when traveling subsonic. Those kinds of energies are downright laughable and I cannot see them knocking Triela flat on her ass and creating a huge blood-spray as we see on Page 156. So assuming they're firing M193 ammo through a suppressor (which makes the suppressor effectively useless - not that it's great to begin with - even the best only knock about 40dB off the noise) then it would hit with a force in the area of 1700J which Level 4 armor will stop with no more then 44mm of backface deformation. However that level of armor either requires ceramic plates or hard fiber-based laminate systems.


As an aside, I noticed on one site noted that H&K firearms cannot use subsonic ammunition because they use a fluted chamber which prevents cartridge case obturation and allowing propellant gasses to escape out the breech, and possibly sticking a projectile in the bore. So Michele actually couldn't fire subsonic ammunition from the PSG1 as I wrote in Under the Radar. sweat So I suppose I'll need to modify that story and give him something else.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by boomer_gonz on Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 13:23

How about to certain 'types' of pistol ammo.

For example, they may be impervious to standard military jacket 9mm - .45 rounds, but hollow-points will slow down an EJO.

And the only actual pistol ammo that will have any severe detrimental effect will be AP rounds and incendiary rounds.

Personally if I knew I was going to engage a EJO, I'm going to pack SJ-ESC in a 9x19 full-auto.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 18:27

This is why I have my OC(s) wear ballistic resistant body armour from Miguel Caballero, and at times layers of such amour. Yu stated that "She will have a long life as long as she is not shot." says to me that the type 2s are not amoured at all. Thus Fernando has given his girls external armour to wear, esp. on missions.

With his cothing and armour designs, my OCs can appear to look like they are not wearing amour when they are. Of course, Fernando and Miguel have been friends since he joined his American Agency, since his early days, Miguel handled all his customers personally himself and Fernando was one of his earlier ones.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 21:21

@ElfenMagix wrote:Yu stated that "She will have a long life as long as she is not shot." says to me that the type 2s are not amoured at all. Thus Fernando has given his girls external armour to wear, esp. on missions.

Which makes absolutely no sense, frankly.

I mean it's pretty stupid to create a new series designed to live twice as long and then make them defenseless.

Plus shot where? If I am shot in the arm or leg, it won't kill me. Why would it kill a cyborg?

I think the docs were referring to the same "kill shot" that would take out a Series 1 - head/eye or (artificial) heart and not making a general declaration that any wound that would kill a human (lung, kidney, liver, gut) would kill a Series 2 because they are as naturally unprotected as a human is.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by GP on Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 7:46

I think what the docs mean is just what we've all come to understand. That is, if they're not shot/hurt they'll live longer. The more damage, the more replacements and thus the more conditioning. Though now they have a newer form that doesn't do harm it sounded like?

Either way, if Petra doesn't get hurt she should do the 5years and more easy imo.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 21:41

Its a case of interpretation. As stated here in V6/CH31/P129...


I interpret this as- if any parts were cyborg'd, it was a 1 for 1 parts exchange. if 1 shoulder joint was removed, 1 cyborg shoulder joint was put in. They did not add anything else, which includes internal bobdy armour. This means, to me, that the 2nd gen cyborgs are not protected internally, for what ever reasons they chose to do this, it was done.

Thus, if a 2nd gen cyborg was shot in a vital area on the chest, that cyborg can die. Same applies if that cyborg was shot in the back in a vital area, it can become paralysed or die because these things are not protected as they are in a 1st gen cyborg.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 21:45

Fair enough, but such a move makes no sense to me, so I choose to interpret as I have already outlined above and therefore I believe Petra and the other S2 girls (including Kara) do have armor. *shrug*

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 22:01

I admit it is a bad move on their part to do it this way.
But what differentiates a 1st gen from a 2nd gen, outside of the obvious? Why would one (esp. the SWA) would would a cyborg and have her to be unprotected in this way? What gains are there?

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 22:07

@ElfenMagix wrote:I admit it is a bad move on their part to do it this way.
But what differentiates a 1st gen from a 2nd gen, outside of the obvious? Why would one (esp. the SWA) would would a cyborg and have her to be unprotected in this way? What gains are there?

There are none that I can see. Which is why I am convinced they did armor them.

It's like saying "We're going to develop a new car, but steel is too expensive and heavy so we're going to build it out of plywood and cardboard."

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by LoC978 on Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 22:32

*takes a stance in the middle*
I'm gonna go with one of the points that you made earlier, kisk... one which agrees with some ideas that formed during one of our many debates on the old forum.

I'm thinking that the armor of generation 2 cyborgs is much more minimalist than the gen1s. densely packed, super-strong artificial muscle tissue would make a pretty damned decent handgun bullet stopper (within reason, of course... how many Italians have a .50AE+ anyway?)
that being said, I'm inclined to think that second gens could be much more easily perforated by high-energy rifle rounds (even, say, a 5.56mm NATO) than the original girls. Also, she'd probably require somewhat more extensive surgery if one of her organs wound up with a tunnel through it, Since her torso is relatively 'untouched'.

so... not unarmored, but not as heavily armored as our original killer cyber-tots.

**edit**
oh yeah.. also, I'd think the second gen's skulls and the left side of their ribcages (or perhaps the entire ribcage... not that big a leap) would be as well armored as the first gens... if not better armored... but that still leaves the possibility of a gut wound flooring one of 'em quicker than Angelica in Ep.12.


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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 22:36

That sounds reasonable to me.

In "Under the Radar", Kara took a few steel-core 9mm's through her gut at point-blank range because her armor there, while normally good enough to absorb a brass 9mm round from a handgun at a bit of range, failed when hit at point blank range from a submachine gun with a Russian round designed to defeat such body armor.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 22:37

"For this series, we tried not to touch her upper torso." means just that.
Taking it to the extreme- this could mean the upper torso and everything in it was not even cyborg'dand thus left alone. In the minimum, it was a 1:1 parts replacement with nothing else added.

Who knows- this only applies to Petra, and not necessarily to our OCs. But as such, I play my OCs in this direction, you may not and do your own thing.

Besides, just because ther torsos may not be bullet proof, their arms seem to be and they can do the arm-lifting thing to cover a much larger area than their faces.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 22:46

He said "tried" - not "didn't". That means at least some level of work was done.

This makes sense in that she has artificial arms. The muscles of the arms alone do not do lifting, so they would have likely had to do some modification to the muscles of her shoulder and back, as well.

They also noted the skeleton is stronger. So that implies her ribs are stronger. Well if they went in and strengthened her ribs, why not do a bit of armoring, as well?

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 22:52

Look. I understand Human Anatomy. In changing the arms, they have to change the supporting structures of the shoulders and vertibres of the back and neck and the muscles that support them in place. This is a given.

For structural support of the legs, hips and pelvis, the entire spinal column should be replaced as well, along with the muscles that support them. This is also a given.

But as for Armouring? It does not exist as far as I see it.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by LoC978 on Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 23:04

If there was work done to the skeletal structure of their upper torso, not lining the back of the ribcage with at least a little Kevlar (say... at least level II ballistic protection)... leaving the cyborg susceptible to a kill shot from a 9mm para (ball) round to the upper left chest... that would be, as kisk has stated, downright idiotic... and I daresay the docs, engineers, and combat planning folks at SWA section two are not idiots, by and large.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 23:19

Lets see if and when Petra gets shot and see if 'Sandro gets put through an emotional windmill for it....

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Robert Frazer on Fri 3 Apr 2009 - 9:30

Elfin, you're working from a fan-translation there, though. The official authorised version in the print manga has the same general gist but with several important distinctions:

PANEL ONE:

-It'd be nice to get a cyborg that will last a while.

-We'll just have to see.

PANEL TWO:

-It would also be nice not have her be killed by terrorists.

PANEL THREE:

-But with this series, we're trying to do as few alterations to the torso as possible.

-Of course, her internal organs will be replaced with artificial versions, as will her muscles and skin.

PANEL FOUR:

-But assuming that we reinforce her frame without replacing all the bones...

-Her shoulder and hip joints will be weakened, and she'll have limited muscular strength.

PANEL FIVE:

-She'll still be strong enough to kill people, though.

-We have to think about how to use her.

PANEL SIX:

-In any case...

-Let's hope she can put up a good fight.

-------------------
-------------------

Of course, when in Volume Eight we saw Petrushka leap two and a half stories, we understand that "limited muscular strength" is entirely relative! Guh?

I think that Petrushka has a good deal of survivability. "As few alterations as possible" doesn't mean "untouched"; her skeleton, even if it's not the highest level of protection available, is still "reinforced"; the artificial muscles are toughened and resistant to fire (notice how readily the younger cyborgs shield themselves with their arms, for instance, without it seeming to affect their performance); damaged organs can be readily swapped out with fresh ones. I'd say that she could endure any wound other than an immediately fatal one - a square shot to the head would probably do for her, but she could recover from being raked across the chest as long as they miss the heart.


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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by LoC978 on Fri 3 Apr 2009 - 14:26

I'm thinking a single shot to one of their artificial hearts wouldn't do 'em in (unless it was a .50BMG or somethin')... I envision artificial organs to be made out of something similar to this. and now that we've cleared up Petra's torso (I was wondering if her organs were natural...), I think it's safe to say she's fairly survivable.
and she wouldn't need as much strength as the younger girls to jump two stories, since she's supposed to be much lighter.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 3 Apr 2009 - 20:36

Robert Frazer... I should throw the book at them... Grey's Anatomy to be precise!
Very few bones in the body can take being pushed to the limits. The American translation makes her sound weaker for several reasons. None of them I will point out now.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by MadHatChemist on Sat 4 Apr 2009 - 21:47

The fact that the 2nd gen still have artificial and replacable parts is probably good enough since the artificial parts are in and of themselves stronger.

Clearly with the 2nd gen they are sacrificing toughness for a longer life (with the benefits of training and experience).
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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 4 Apr 2009 - 22:55

If the shoulders and hips are not touched, then there will be problems in less than a couple of years due towear and tear.

Lets say this- the leg that they amputated for the cancer got the cyborg leg from the point where the original leg begins. This may give some added strength to the new limb but it also adds pressure to the Femur/Hip Socket and it will most likely to fail at that point through breakage or cartlidge failure. Now Petra is going to need that whole section to be replaced with an articial hip joint, and while they are at it, why not replace the whole leg.

The same applies to the arms and shoulders.

You might as well give them public domain prosthetics if you want to go cheap on your cyborg designs.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Awinnell on Sun 5 Apr 2009 - 6:34

they did say that the skeleton had been reinforced,so the may have scrwed on plates of whatever they build them out of onto the bones,so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to fit artificial hip and shoulder joints,after all those are fairly common,they also didn't say that they hadn't replaced the arms and legs only that the torso skeleton had been reinforced,especially as she is taller now than she was as Elizabeta and her legs are slightly heavier than normal

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 5 Apr 2009 - 20:29

Elizabetta was a 1-legged ballerina who decided to jump out a window (or roof, I still say 'Sandro pushed her Evil ), so that leg was replaced. Since she was made taller, both legs had to be replaced and adjusted to the new height. Now to further balance the body, her arms had to be lengthened, this they too may have been replaced. A strange but simple trick is: The hieght from head to toes is the same length (give or take a couple of centimeters) as the arms stretched out across. Try it out if you like, but this measurement must be correct. This balances the swaying of the arms with the opposite step of the legs. There are other strange mechanical things like this that we human have. Yeah- between god and mother nature, shortcuts were taken when man was made.

Another is from shoulder hip (or lap) is the same length of the upper from from shoulder to elbow plus 1 width of a hand (or a closed fist). This with her arms lenthened, so was her body to properly match the proportions and balance out the body.

In classic (basic) knee/hip/shoulder/elbow/finger joints replacement surgeries, the bones are precisely cut and then Titanium joint fit into place. In Hip and shoulder, the cup where the joint is in is cut away and replaced with a titanium/teflon/gortex socket.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 6 Apr 2009 - 3:28

Not to jump off the subject (even though its a Cyborg Central tradition) but is it just me, or does anyone else think that Sandro is a blatant rip-off of Glenn Quagmire?



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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 6 Apr 2009 - 7:08

In before Sandro tries to play 'got your nose' with the girls and makes them scream, and in before we discover that Sandro has his phone number tattooed on his butt...

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Awinnell on Mon 6 Apr 2009 - 7:45

more likely he has his name and address and the words ' Property of ' written on Petras butt !

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 6 Apr 2009 - 11:05

@Danjo3 wrote:Not to jump off the subject (even though its a Cyborg Central tradition) but is it just me, or does anyone else think that Sandro is a blatant rip-off of Glenn Quagmire?

But Sandro only has one girl and she's not Asian, either. Wink

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 6 Apr 2009 - 12:26

I think you're not getting the reference, Awinnell...

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 6 Apr 2009 - 21:29

@Danjo3 wrote:Not to jump off the subject (even though its a Cyborg Central tradition) but is it just me, or does anyone else think that Sandro is a blatant rip-off of Glenn Quagmire?


Glenn has more class than 'Sandro and has a clean and rocking place to take the girls too. What does Sandro has? A warehouse of an apartment, and would have sex with a chicken of the agency told him he had to for the sake of the mission...

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Awinnell on Fri 17 Apr 2009 - 11:00

heres something that might explain the way the girls could be armoured, Liquid body armour,specially treated Kevlar that turns rigid on impact but remains flexible under normal use ,they plan to make uniforms out of it to protect more of the body than current body armour !

http://science.howstuffworks.com/liquid-body-armor.htm

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 17 Apr 2009 - 11:17

Sorbothane has the same properties. In fact, if it were not for the accident discovery of Sorbothane in the mid 1970's, none of thie research would be going on now. It is a very strange substance, and I'm glad you can order it...

At least one of my OCs has a Kevlar/Sorbothane body amour, custom built to the wearer's specifications.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Awinnell on Fri 17 Apr 2009 - 11:33

thixotropic fluids are cool,the usual stunt with them is to fill a tank or pool with custard and walk over it ,stand still you sink, walk and you are fine

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Five_X on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 19:04

Body armour would be good, but it would make the girls (namely Henrietta, Rico) less cute! And we can't have that at all. You have to draw the line somewhere, y'know. The girls can't be all practical, no style. And that is why they won't wear armour. Just imagine Henrietta in full BDU.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 21:08

@Five_X wrote:Just imagine Henrietta in full BDU.

It bugged me to no end in Episode 12 of the first anime series that the handlers (who did wear ballistic vests) and the cyborgs attacked in their street clothes and shoes. Guh?

They even made a point of how stupid an idea it was by having Angelica - in ballerina flats - slip on an icy roof. bang head

Which is why in my stories the girls do indeed wear BDUs when they attacked fortified locations. To dispel suspicion, they travel via shuttle bus with "Rome Airsoft Club" temporary graphics on the sides.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Five_X on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 21:17

I'm going to make a photoshop now that you've said that, y'know. Go GI Rico!

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 21:43


Modeled by Asami Oda

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Five_X on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 22:20

Oh, no. I've got something better in mind...

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 17:22

@Kiskaloo wrote:
Modeled by Asami Oda
UmI think that girls Japanese.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 17:23

@Danjo3 wrote:UmI think that girls Japanese.

Surprisingly enough, so is Kara. Wink

Though admittedly that is the wrong camo pattern for the Italian Armed Forces and Kara wouldn't be caught dead with that t-shirt. Laughing

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 19:04

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:UmI think that girls Japanese.

Surprisingly enough, so is Kara. Wink

Though admittedly that is the wrong camo pattern for the Italian Armed Forces and Kara wouldn't be caught dead with that t-shirt. Laughing


Maybe...

On the way to the training grounds/shooting range, she and Michele stopped for a quick coffee and somebody bumped into her spilling her half-caf double vanilla latte on her D&G blouse. Luckily(or perhaps not so) there was a corner market next door and that is where Kara got that shirt. Which she quickly attempted to cover up with a camo vest at the training grounds.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 19:27

But before she could, Henrietta saw it, thought it was adorable, and pointed it out to everyone, at which point Kara decided "heck with it" and left the BDU jacket unbuttoned since it was hot out.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

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