Something for Petra and the older girls...

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 8 Dec 2008 - 21:52

djmaca wrote:Wait! One arm, leg and eye? Where did that info came from?

In the ADV manga, it is Volume 1, Page 25 middle right frame.

Her left leg is amputated at the knee and her right arm is amputated at the elbow. Her left eye is also covered with a cotton gauze patch. She also appears to have had arthroscopic surgery on her right knee and her left hand is bandaged from the wrist down.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 8 Dec 2008 - 22:23

@Kiskaloo wrote:My personal belief is she was repeatedly sexually violated during the night and the trauma was such that during augmentation the surgical team decided her uterus should be removed.

After all, she was missing one arm, one leg and perhaps/probably one eye. That's enough trophies from one victim, I should hope...

@Danjo3 wrote:Henrietta said her uterus was taken during conditioning. I think it was due to injuries suffered during the assault on her. Probably knife wounds meant to finish her off.

A uterus being removed by the medical staff just because she was a rape victim is in and of itself inhumane.
I can see though if Henrietta was stabbed and they tried to disembowel her, where such an injury would serioulsy injure her uterus and introduce various infectious agents to it to be a reason why it was removed, and this could have been done by the emergency room staff as an emergency hystertomy and not by the SWA medical team itself. To keep her mind at ease, she was conditioned and programmed to think that her uterus was removed as part of her cyborg building process.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Ghostfriendly on Tue 17 Feb 2009 - 17:52

Internal injuries caused by rape would give continuing pain and medical complications. They had the chance to remove it, so they did.
Anyone remember Man Plus? The cyborg design team decide their boy's male organ is a useless and unecessary vulnerability, and react with suprise when it's removal traumatises him more than anything he went through before.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Secchan on Sun 1 Mar 2009 - 1:21

I'd need a real' big one, were I a cyborg.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by MadHatChemist on Sun 1 Mar 2009 - 1:38

what Petra really need even if she denies it is birth control pills or condoms

Wouldn't they just cut their tubes to prevent something like that, or otherwise stopped ovulation to avoid any possibility of pregnancy, partiularly for the second generation? If for no other reason then to keep the hormones under control, they might end up doing that.

Of course it raises the question: if they didn't inhibit it and one of the girls became pregnant, what would the agency do? From a purely utilitarian standpoint they could either abort (easy enough to due since the girls go into surgery for upgrades), or they could let the pregnancy go forward and observe how it affects the conditioning.

Internal injuries caused by rape would give
continuing pain and medical complications. They had the chance to
remove it, so they did.

I had always assumed that it was because her injuries were so severe, since there were girls with uterus intact. The injury to the uterus may not have been caused by a knifing, as clearly her attackers were sicko and could have done some very, very nightmarish things to her.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 1 Mar 2009 - 11:44

@Secchan wrote:I'd need a real' big one, were I a cyborg.

No, sir. Not going to go there. NO Smile


@MadHatChemist wrote:
what Petra really need even if she denies it is birth control pills or condoms

Wouldn't they just cut their tubes to prevent something like that, or otherwise stopped ovulation to avoid any possibility of pregnancy, particularly for the second generation? If for no other reason then to keep the hormones under control, they might end up doing that.

Of course it raises the question: if they didn't inhibit it and one of the girls became pregnant, what would the agency do? From a purely utilitarian standpoint they could either abort (easy enough to due since the girls go into surgery for upgrades), or they could let the pregnancy go forward and observe how it affects the conditioning.

That is a good question. My OC, Kara, was sexually active prior to her conversion and they left everything there so I expect she could become pregnant if it was that time of the month and neither used contraceptives.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Secchan on Sun 1 Mar 2009 - 14:48

Hehe, I was just joking around. A large medium would do Razz

As for them being allowed to have a baby...I'd doubt it would be allowed. And wouldn't everyone else be "WTF HOW'D YOU GET KNOCKED UP?".
It makes me wonder whether handlers would get away with having sex with cyborgs, i.e if they got caught Wink

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 1 Mar 2009 - 16:21

@Secchan wrote:It makes me wonder whether handlers would get away with having sex with cyborgs, i.e if they got caught. Wink

Honestly, if it was thought it would strengthen the bond the cyborg felt for the handler (or vice-versa), and therefore would make them more effective, such relationships might very well be encouraged... Embarassed

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by boomer_gonz on Sun 1 Mar 2009 - 18:16

@MadHatChemist wrote:
Of course it raises the question: if they didn't inhibit it and one of the girls became pregnant, what would the agency do? From a purely utilitarian standpoint they could either abort (easy enough to due since the girls go into surgery for upgrades), or they could let the pregnancy go forward and observe how it affects the conditioning.

That sounds like something Bianchi would say. That guy has a serious case of "Let's see what happens" syndrome.

@Secchan wrote:
It makes me wonder whether handlers would get away with having sex with cyborgs, i.e if they got caught Wink

Actually I'm working on something like that myself, and in that case someone does find out and they don't do a damn thing. Muh-m-muhahahaha!

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 1 Mar 2009 - 19:34

@boomer_gonz wrote:That sounds like something Bianchi would say. That guy has a serious case of "Let's see what happens" syndrome.

I see Doctor Belesario fitting that role, myself.


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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 1 Mar 2009 - 19:57

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@Secchan wrote:It makes me wonder whether handlers would get away with having sex with cyborgs, i.e if they got caught. Wink

Honestly, if it was thought it would strengthen the bond the cyborg felt for the handler (or vice-versa), and therefore would make them more effective, such relationships might very well be encouraged... Embarassed

@boomer_gonz wrote:
@MadHatChemist wrote:
Of course it raises the question: if they didn't inhibit it and one of the girls became pregnant, what would the agency do? From a purely utilitarian standpoint they could either abort (easy enough to due since the girls go into surgery for upgrades), or they could let the pregnancy go forward and observe how it affects the conditioning.

That sounds like something Bianchi would say. That guy has a serious case of "Let's see what happens" syndrome.

@Secchan wrote:
It makes me wonder whether handlers would get away with having sex with cyborgs, i.e if they got caught Wink

Actually I'm working on something like that myself, and in that case someone does find out and they don't do a damn thing. Muh-m-muhahahaha!
As sickening as it may sound, it would be more true than not.
In real cases of where children are used and handled as weapons, where they are conditioned to do a such a job that would end their lives, sex is used as a tool to get them to work better for the handler and it is always the handler who is giving it.


@Kiskaloo wrote:
@MadHatChemist wrote:
what Petra really need even if she denies it is birth control pills or condoms

Wouldn't they just cut their tubes to prevent something like that, or otherwise stopped ovulation to avoid any possibility of pregnancy, particularly for the second generation? If for no other reason then to keep the hormones under control, they might end up doing that.

Of course it raises the question: if they didn't inhibit it and one of the girls became pregnant, what would the agency do? From a purely utilitarian standpoint they could either abort (easy enough to due since the girls go into surgery for upgrades), or they could let the pregnancy go forward and observe how it affects the conditioning.

That is a good question. My OC, Kara, was sexually active prior to her conversion and they left everything there so I expect she could become pregnant if it was that time of the month and neither used contraceptives.
My OC, Rachel, was sexaully active prior to her conversion and she seems to be sexually intact as well, leaving the possibility that she can get pregnant if that one egg in her gets fertilized. But in fulfilling the question above, Rachel only eyes her handler as her partner in all things, including sex. Ths issue is, it is not the cyborg that controls the relationship, but it is the handler that controls it and between Fernando and Rachel, certain lines will never be crossed.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Secchan on Sun 1 Mar 2009 - 23:05

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@Secchan wrote:It makes me wonder whether handlers would get away with having sex with cyborgs, i.e if they got caught. Wink

Honestly, if it was thought it would strengthen the bond the cyborg felt for the handler (or vice-versa), and therefore would make them more effective, such relationships might very well be encouraged... Embarassed

Well that's more than a little bit disturbing.
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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 1 Mar 2009 - 23:05

@Secchan wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:
@Secchan wrote:It makes me wonder whether handlers would get away with having sex with cyborgs, i.e if they got caught. Wink

Honestly, if it was thought it would strengthen the bond the cyborg felt for the handler (or vice-versa), and therefore would make them more effective, such relationships might very well be encouraged... Embarassed

Well that's more than a little bit disturbing.

Everything about the SWA is more then a little bit disturbing.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 1 Mar 2009 - 23:23

What the SWA do has this antiseptic feel to it, however terrible it may be to turn kids into cyborgs and use them as soldiers. Adding an element of pedophilia turns the game in a whole new, less-than-antiseptic direction.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 1 Mar 2009 - 23:35

We should remember that while Triela may look 13, she could be upwards of 19 or even 20 if you take each of those eight bears as representing a year at the compound as Hillshire's handler (which I don't, but I still feel she's past the age of consent in Italy, which is 14).

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 1 Mar 2009 - 23:46

@Nachtsider wrote:What the SWA do has this antiseptic feel to it, however terrible it may be to turn kids into cyborgs and use them as soldiers. Adding an element of pedophilia turns the game in a whole new, less-than-antiseptic direction.
I would not think so. These girls are conditioned and programmed to die for their handlers, sex with them would be on a much lower on the rung of the command ladder. Also remember, the girls are programmed to be in love with them, but how that love is interpreted depends on the girl and their relationship.

In the least, the handlers have seen their girls naked at least one- whether on mission or in the dorms. The girls dont care, and some might even like putting on a show.

OK, there are respectable handlers who treat their girls well, but no agency is truly clean of freaks. At minimum, 'Sandro is doing Petra and has been snce the beginning. If she had not waken up when he was inspecting her, who knows how far he would have went?

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Guest on Tue 17 Mar 2009 - 9:31

@ElfenMagix wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:What the SWA do has this antiseptic feel to it, however terrible it may be to turn kids into cyborgs and use them as soldiers. Adding an element of pedophilia turns the game in a whole new, less-than-antiseptic direction.
I would not think so. These girls are conditioned and programmed to die for their handlers, sex with them would be on a much lower on the rung of the command ladder. Also remember, the girls are programmed to be in love with them, but how that love is interpreted depends on the girl and their relationship.
They already have problems with ethics, should the handlers go out of their ways, the psychologists will know it first hand and a report would be written, i guess?

In the least, the handlers have seen their girls naked at least one- whether on mission or in the dorms. The girls dont care, and some might even like putting on a show.

OK, there are respectable handlers who treat their girls well, but no agency is truly clean of freaks. At minimum, 'Sandro is doing Petra and has been snce the beginning. If she had not waken up when he was inspecting her, who knows how far he would have went?
Sandro's gotta be fired for abusing petra Muh-m-muhahahaha!

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 17 Mar 2009 - 10:38

Rehael wrote:Sandro's gotta be fired for abusing petra Muh-m-muhahahaha!

The reality is that all we have seen is Alessandro kissing Petrushka. Everything else is either pure speculation with no supporting evidence or just wishful thinking.

If people want to write or draw frictional stories about the canon cyborgs doing their handlers that is their decision, but it is just that - fiction.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by boomer_gonz on Tue 17 Mar 2009 - 12:49

Which is why I went the OC route with mine. LOLZ

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 17 Mar 2009 - 22:40

Same here... almost... but not quite Very Happy

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Secchan on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 6:32

@Kiskaloo wrote:

The reality is that all we have seen is Alessandro kissing Petrushka. Everything else is either pure speculation with no supporting evidence or just wishful thinking.

Why people would want to think about Petra and Sandro 'together' is beyond me *shudder*
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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by GP on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 9:02

I don't see why not? Why think of one of the other girls with someone? And I'm sure others have. I don't think it's a coincidence that the 2nd gen girls are a bit older. And if we get to a 3rd gen they could very well be even older (18-21). In fact I'm willing to bet on it happening that way with each new generation up to a certain age.

At that point, any sorta relationships between the girls and the handlers become even more possible. It also seems that less conditioning will come into play with each new generation, so then the emotions of "love" that could showup like in Petra would be natural and not a mix/effect of conditioning.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 16:03

@Secchan wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:

The reality is that all we have seen is Alessandro kissing Petrushka. Everything else is either pure speculation with no supporting evidence or just wishful thinking.

Why people would want to think about Petra and Sandro 'together' is beyond me *shudder*
As stated in my FF work, if a cyborg is willing to die for their handler, bending over and dropping panties is something very low on the 'list of dangerous things I must do for my handler'. In fact, its pretty high on the 'If it make my handler happy...' list.

Whether you want to think its either programming or conditioning, the girls mind have been artifically warped to accept unnormal relationship patterns as their norm. Of the handlers we have seen:
Lauro was an abuser on the mental and emtional level, and look what Elsa did to him for it.
Jose is willing to take his relationship with Henrietta to a certain extent.
Jean uses Rico as if she were a power tool, and only on a few rare occassions has he owned up to caring about her.
Marco had a perfect union with Angie until the med techs screwed with her brains and made her forget everything he had taught her, and has distanced himself from her, though she has tried everything to win his heart back. In the end, she did, but The End is a bit to late to win anything.
Hillshire is in constant struggle with Triela on many issues about their relationship. At times I think he should throw her across his lap and spank that rubber and titanium rear end of her... who know, he'll hurt his hand doing so and she would probably like it. Evil
Ernesto and Pia (According to those I have talked to about the video game), were too close with each other. From what I am told (if you read my Solution's Resolution story), Ernesto & Pia in the video game were closer that Rachel and Fernando, and that there is a relationship that dances on the line that separates expressed love and sex by just a few hairs!
Raballo was probably the one closest to a professional relationship with his cyborg Claes. But Claes, like all the other cyborgs stated above, fell in love (which level, that remains to be discussed into further details) with him.

Conditioning is doing something to these girls, and its not right to put them through this. But at the same time, if you want an individual that will be willingly to walk to the face of death and poke it in its eye, this would be the only way to get it done. How the handlers deal with it, its in them. We know that 'Sandro dropped a load of that male happy juice in Petra a long time ago, whether the anime/manga shows it or not. It is not in wishful thinking that I ssay this, it is something that I say as per the reactions Petra gives when certain situations happen or questions are asked about 'Sandro and other women comes up. Her reactions are that of a very involved girlfriend, and a jealous one at that.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 16:45

In last night's episode of Dollhouse, one of the Handlers was having sex with his Active. When asked why, he responded "You parade these beautiful people around half-naked and hire them out as sexual fantasies. You actually are surprised?"

When asked if an Active's natural docile state made it more fun to have sex with them, he replied "No, but it did make it easier."

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by LoC978 on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 17:15

yay for abuse of power?
*is reminded of some slavery stories he's heard*


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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by GP on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 19:35

Level of conditioning or just conditioning in itself does play a major part in the girls emotions and the first gen feel love as a part of it. But what I got from Petra's bit in the manga when asked about her love, it wasn't due to the conditioning (which surprised the techs) and it does look like the 2nd gen gets less conditioning done to them (or maybe it's just a better form of it that keeps more of their human traits in tact while still making them loyal to their handlers.)

Either way, in Petras case her love came more natural in a sense, imo, compared to say Triela who admits early on that she doesn't know if it's really love or just due to the conditioning. Now that Petras love isn't one sided might seem like like a bad thing to some due to her age and the overall fact that, yes, they did/have/are messing with her thoughts, but on the other side, these girls aren't going to live long lives. It's kinda a nice/happy thing to actually be loved in their situation, and not just be used like brainless tools till they break.

Age is the key factor that probably turns most people here off to the idea of this kind of relationship, and to an extent I agree. But Petra is what again? 16? I forget the current ages of the girls actually. I never cared much for age gaps either, so that doesn't bother me.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 20:15

@GP wrote:Level of conditioning or just conditioning in itself does play a major part in the girls emotions and the first gen feel love as a part of it. But what I got from Petra's bit in the manga when asked about her love, it wasn't due to the conditioning (which surprised the techs) and it does look like the 2nd gen gets less conditioning done to them (or maybe it's just a better form of it that keeps more of their human traits in tact while still making them loyal to their handlers.)

Either way, in Petras case her love came more natural in a sense, imo, compared to say Triela who admits early on that she doesn't know if it's really love or just due to the conditioning. Now that Petras love isn't one sided might seem like like a bad thing to some due to her age and the overall fact that, yes, they did/have/are messing with her thoughts, but on the other side, these girls aren't going to live long lives. It's kinda a nice/happy thing to actually be loved in their situation, and not just be used like brainless tools till they break.

Age is the key factor that probably turns most people here off to the idea of this kind of relationship, and to an extent I agree. But Petra is what again? 16? I forget the current ages of the girls actually. I never cared much for age gaps either, so that doesn't bother me.
This is where its going to get complicated, and where I disagree.
First off, go work at a couple of schools with girls varying in age from Elemetary to High School and study them. I have over 25 years of working with school age and even college aged girls, which is more than kmost people have been alive. I have seen them go through crushes and actual love. The there is the incideous infatuation where many people think its love but is not. But back to the comment above.

Your statements would be true IF there was ZERO conditioning drug in Petra's system. Any amount of any substance that is found on someone's system used to alter their behavior in any direction creates false emotions the person thinks it to be true.

Remember the following:
1: Petra's memories have been erased.
2: Petra's been programmed to respect and admire her handler, 'Sandro.
3: Petra's been given heavy doses of the conditioning drug during her programming stage and during her intial wake up stage and is being weened off them.
4: Because of 3- any negative comment she makes of Sandro, she becomes violently ill. For her its become easier to accept 'Sandro of something more than just a handler, just like the other girls.
5: Because of 2, then 3, and then 4, she has fallen into an emtional state where she is in love with her handler, whether this emotion is true or not, she believes it is.

Now, twist this about, the med techs are not psychaitrists (except for Dr. Bianchi, who was not there). They do not who what love is, and most of them being geeks and nerds, dont have a social feeling in their bodies since they lock themselves in labd for days and nights on end. At least Dr. Bianchi has a social life outside the SWA, the others seem not to have much of anything, outside of how many degrees they have or awards that they can get.

In my view, Elsa would have given the same results to the same questions for the same reasons. There is no way out of this because, there is this one thing, the conditioning drug that alters their state of mind. Once you alter their state of mind, their emotions and psyche soon follow. Your points are only valid only if the cyborgs were drug free.

As Kisk said (and twisting his words about), "...It made it easier..."


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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 20:19

@Kiskaloo wrote:When asked if an Active's natural docile state made it more fun to have sex with them, he replied "No, but it did make it easier."
Docile can be fun, though.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 20:34

Chapter 42 makes it clear on no less then three occasions that Petrushka has not been conditioned to love or have romantic feelings towards Alessandro.

As part of her identification procedure she swears fealty to the SWA. Dr. Belesario then asks Petrushka what Alessandro means to her. She responds "he's a person I cherish".

Belesario then asks her if that is how she expresses her loyalty to him as her handler and she replies no, that is how she expresses her love for her handler. Belesario proceeds to ask her if she is confusing her loyalty for Alessandro for love and Petrushka replies no.

When the medical staff are reviewing the video tape of her session, one of them notes "What a surprise! The cyborg is actually in love." That seems pretty clear to me that Petrushka was not conditioned to love or have romantic feelings towards Alessandro.

The aide then goes on to ask if the medical staff should intervene to stop it because he is afraid Petrushka might turn psycho like Elsa did. Belesario replies that Elsa went psychotic because her love was imposed on her, which again is a clear statement that Petrushka does not have love imposed on her. He then adds that "if she has fallen in love, we have nothing to do with it".

Now that doesn't mean Alessandro is totally innocent. He's trained to seduce women and he is at least partially turning his charms and persuasive abilities on Petrushka (possibly out of habit) and she seems to be responding to them.

But she is responding to them as any normal teenage girl would. Her conditioning has little, and likely nothing, to do with it.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by LoC978 on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 20:42

@Nachtsider wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:When asked if an Active's natural docile state made it more fun to have sex with them, he replied "No, but it did make it easier."
Docile can be fun, though.
not if they're practically limp...

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 20:43

I don't mean THAT docile. Razz

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Robert Frazer on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 20:56

Now that doesn't mean Alessandro is totally innocent. He's trained to seduce women and he is at least partially turning his charms and persuasive abilities on Petrushka (possibly out of habit) and she seems to be responding to them.

Does he even do that? He needles Petrushka on a few occasions (for instance, saying "I don't like redheads" straight to her face, which visibly offends her), and when Petrushka has to strip and change into a captured terrorist's outfit (I can't recall precisely which chapter, sorry), Alessandro's mind is solely on the job, keeping his pistol readied against intruders and growling at her to hurry up and get on with it while she's very artfully fretting about her modesty. Even when we reach the crisis point at the end of Volume 8, Alessandro believes that it's just the conditioning (and not anything on his part) making Petrushka say that she loves him. He's not been making any concerted effort to seduce her at all - Petrushka does genuinely love him just for who he is.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:16

Maybe, maybe not.

In Chapter 37 when they are on stakeout in his fortwo, Alessandro has her undo her top to expose her bra and he kisses her to make it look like they are two lovers making out when one of the PRF guys walks by the car.

At the end of Chapter 38 he says she really is captivating and she smiles in response.

In Chapter 39, she's playing his girlfriend when he is cosplaying as "Niccolo Baggio" and he's all over her as part of that persona.

At the end of Chapter 44, he invites to her his apartment, after previously rejecting her request in Chapter 39. Now Alessandro does believe she loves him because she is conditioned to, but Alessandro probably thinks she has been conditioned like the Series 1 girls, which she has not.

And at the end of Chapter 49 he kisses her in the Music Room.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:22

Lets go back to V6/CH31/P130(or there about). Dr. Gilliani says (in two different speech bubbles, so order is to be determined), "She has no recollection of her past, but she knows everything that she needs to know." (and) "It seems she was given lots of the conditioning drug."

In V6/CH32/P140-152, Petra wakes up in 'Sandro's room in her underwear in his bed. She does not know of nothing other than what has happened for the past 48 hours, and nothing more. But she also knows that this is the place where she belongs.

In the earlier pages, he was discussing with Jean and Jose as to hos to care for his cyborg, but his actions and questions seems odds and weird to them. In P152 - 155, he is already getting touchy feely with his cyborg, if has hasn't already the night before. In pages 157 to 160, 'Sandro puts Petra to a test in which she throws up trying to say something negative about him. He calls up Dr. Belisario stated to 'Sandro that the conditioning was supped to be mild, not its dosage as in how is it affecting her;answering 'Sandro's question of "Isn't the conditioing process supposed to be mild and gentle? The Dr. Belisario goes about making exuses of how 'Sandro is pushing Petra too hard and show take smaller steps in her training. Thus, this negates the whole 'mild dosage' conditioning, as stated by Dr. Gilliani that she was under heavy conditioing.

In V6/CH31/P128, the question was asked if the cyborg process and conditioning can be finshed in 3 weeks? This is three weeks of going through heavy doses of the drug once the implants are put in for the implants (according to the series) will not work without the drug.

In V6/Ch30/P88, Dr. Belisario says of the new 2nd gen cyborgs, "And even though they are given the same conditioning, they will be more flexible." This is the same conditioning and same drug that is getting them in trouble with the First Generation cyborgs in the first place.

So, this love is imposed on Petra, the med techs are too dense and stupid to admit to their own mistakes, especially when they are making the same mistakes again!

Now what is 'Sandro doing with his cyborg in his bed in her underwear within 48 hours of her waking up, hey- THIS AINT A HONEYMOON PERIOD!!!

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:40

Loving their handlers was only one part of the conditioning process and it is only spoken of as part of the process of the girls prior to Petrushka. In fact, it is specifically noted by the people - the lead doctor, in fact - who do the conditioning that the love imposed on the girls prior to Petrushka was not imposed on Petrushka herself.

Therefore, I do not see the medical techs as incompetent boobs who have no idea about what they are doing to the girls. As such, I do not believe they conditioned Petra to love Alessandro and either don't realize it or refuse to admit it - especially since when they do note they didn't program her to love him, they're talking to themselves. So why lie?

As for Alessandro's discussion with Jean and Jose, I expect part of it was him yanking their chains. But part of it was likely also because Alessandro's background was in espionage. He already seems to have at least one persona he uses on official business ("Niccolo Baggio") and perhaps others. And those persona don't have a 16-year old kid sister as part of their back story. He appears to have decided her public persona was not going to be his 16-year old sister, but instead his 20 year old girlfriend or assistant/partner. And he needed to know how far he could go in making that persona a reality.

As for the scenes where he is putting on make-up (pages 152-154), well he has to show her how to properly apply it because she doesn't know how. That requires a hands-on touch.

And as to why Petrushka is in his bed, she does not get her own room until a later chapter - a later volume, in fact. So for all we know, she didn't have any place else to go. Maybe she left the hospital earlier then planned.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:47

In V6. Dr. Belisario says that the Second Gen will go through the same conditioning as the First Gen. Dr. Gilliani says that she is under heavy conditioning. Later in Chapter 8 Dr. Belisario says that the Love is not imposed.

Now, how can a mind/memory altering drug be given to a person, and not expect some sort of emtional ramifications from it. True- to Petra, this Love is true to her as is can be. False, because it is imposed by the drug and the conditioning process. How would she react if she was not given the conditioning and the drug, would she still be in love with 'Sandro? I think not.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by GP on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 23:15

You can't say that, you don't know for a fact that she wuldn't fall in love with him without the conditioning and the drugs.

All we have is what is said in the manga to go with. Like it was pointed out, the techs found out through they're tests that her love came natural. You can't deny they're surprised at finding this bit out, that's how the scene in the chapters plays out imo.

Also later on when she's talking with a few other 2nd gen girls they think her "love" is all in her head and don't believe her either.

While they say the 2nd gen goes through the same "conditioning" as the first gen, do we even have a stated list/chart or outline as to what that covers? I look at it as conditioning to get them ready to fight mentally. They get stuffed with all this data on weapons/tactics, and then on top have been made loyal to the section and their handlers.

Now that emotional bending which makes they loyal and devoted to no end to their handlers could be seen/mistaken for love, some don't question this though, but we do see Triela does early on. Though she says she loves her handler she doesn't know if it's real or not at that point.

Rico in another case doesn't give off that love vibe like we see Henrietta does. imo, even Rico is more in the loyalty and devoted catagory than love/affection.

It just seems to me that while each of them go through the same general/level of conditioning, they could come away a bit different emotionally. They don't all share the same personality, and they don't all act the same with their handlers. Hell Triela runs off, Rico would never think about something like that.

And we also see Petra activly disagreeing with Sandro, etc. I mean, they'll follow orders yeah, but while it's true that some might or probably do have "love" impossed on them (I still don't think Petra does as the manga states pretty clearlly she doesn't), That "love" doesn't have the same level/kind for each girl the way I see it.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 23:24

At the end of Chapter 42, Angelica and Henrietta both note that they "love their handlers right away". Petrushka asks "Isn't that strange?" and states that people fall in love for a reason, not just wake up and feel it. She actually asks the Series One girls if what they feel is love, which scares Henrietta who tearfully admits to Jose that she no longer remembers when and why she loved him, just that she does.

The body of evidence I read clearly points to Petrushka not being programmed to love her handler like the girls before her, regardless of the type, depth or length of conditioning she underwent.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 2:56

@ElfenMagix wrote:Your statements would be true IF there was ZERO conditioning drug in Petra's system. Any amount of any substance that is found on someone's system used to alter their behavior in any direction creates false emotions the person thinks it to be true.
IMO, the above statement is impossible to get around. Petraís little mind is every bit as warped as any of the other girls. If you say that her love is pure and genuine, then youíre only seeing what you want to see.
@Kiskaloo wrote:The body of evidence I read clearly points to Petrushka not being programmed to love her handler like the girls before her, regardless of the type, depth or length of conditioning she underwent.
I donít recall ever reading anything about any of the girls being programmed to love their handlers.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by GP on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 8:45

They're not programmed to romantically love them, it's the slim difference between undying loyalty and love. It's a thin line that you can see as being the same.

The girls are made to be loyal till death to their handlers, that could be seen as love from their point of view. We already know Petra doesn't see it the same way, and while she's loyal and will risk her life for her handler she doesn't view it as being out of love. She just loves him normally, this is what gets the techs surprised. I can't see how anyone can deny the evidence that Kiskabo talks about and say that others are just "seeing what they want to see."

I also believe that Triela is yet another example of what can be seen as real love by the end of c56 (I haven't seen 57+ yet so I can't comment on anything else that might have happend). Not only was she off of the drugs at the time (which messed with her body but she was still thinking just fine) did she start to think more about the specific topic.

After she found out her past and so on she was ready to leave to keep her handler safe, but turned back out of what you can see/call as love. The fact she's mad at him for getting hurt, running off in anger, feeling guilty and thinking of running off again but coming back shows to me that those are her true feelings/emotions and not due to the conditioning.

If it was just the same old conditioning, stedfast loyalty etc, she would probably have reacted very very differently to the events. She wouldn't run off for one imo. And thinking of leaving a 2nd time wouldn't have came up. When it's loyalty and not real love you just sit there like a good soldier and follow orders, sure you worry about your master/handler, but you don't question their actions and you don't cause trouble (run off). You also don't backtalk, something Petra and Triela both do.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 11:37

@GP wrote:They're not programmed to romantically love them, it's the slim difference between undying loyalty and love. It's a thin line that you can see as being the same.

The girls are made to be loyal till death to their handlers, that could be seen as love from their point of view.
I agree, and keep in mind Petra is also programmed to be loyal till death, and yes the line between undying loyalty and love is slim indeed. Iím sorry, but to suggest that Petraís so called love is in no way influenced by the programming and conditioning she was subject to is just impossible to believe.

PS: I agree with your observations concerning Triela. I happen to believe the love she feels for Hillshire is much closer to the real deal then whatever it is that Petra is going through.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 12:26

@Danjo3 wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:The body of evidence I read clearly points to Petrushka not being programmed to love her handler like the girls before her, regardless of the type, depth or length of conditioning she underwent.
I donít recall ever reading anything about any of the girls being programmed to love their handlers.

With respect, I've pointed them out in this thread and others - including my post you replied to - but I'll do it again.

First off, I will note that on page 135 of Volume 1 (Chapter 4), Triela, after noting that Elsa was totally in love with Lauro and that most of the kids here are, adds: "Conditioning is kind of like love." She then adds "As a result of making us loyal, sometimes emotions that resemble love may develop...something like that."

So Triela seems to think her own feelings for Hillshire were influenced by the conditioning, but may not be part of the conditioning.

At the end of Chapter 42 (Page 106), Angelica and Henrietta both note that they "love their handlers right away". So they wake up, see their handler, and feel love for them.

Also in Chapter 42 (101), an unnamed medical technician says: "What a surprise! This cyborg is actually in love."

His peer, also unnamed, adds: "That really is something. It reminds me of Elsa de Sica. Won't we intervene, Belisario?"

To this question, Belisario answers with (emphasis mine): "Elsa did become like that because her love was imposed upon her."

He then adds: "The concept of the new generation is to avoid too great a subjugation. If she has fallen in love, we have nothing to do with it."

Belesario, who is in charge of the conditioning regimen of the cyborgs, explicitly states that Elsa's love for Lauro was imposed upon her. He also explicitly states that if Petrushka does love Alessandro, it is not because the medical staff imposed upon her the requirement to feel so. And he notes that the "subjugation imposed by the conditioning on the "new series" (Petrushka and the other Series Two) is lessened. So, in fact, Petrushka does not have the same conditioning as the earlier girls and the conditioning she does have it not as harsh in it's demands for obedience.

Henrietta and Angelica both note they loved their handlers on first sight of them.

As for Triela's comments: One, she's a cyborg. She doesn't know how the conditioning affects her so what she thinks may be natural feelings for Hillshire are in fact feelings that were imposed on her. As such, I place more value in the words of the people who created and administered the conditioning then the subject who received it.

Second, her comments were from Chapter 4. At that time, Yu Aida may have seen conditioning in that way. However, in the intervening 38 chapters, he either changed his mind or decided to go deeper into it and we now have this deeper insight gained from Chapter 42.


@Danjo3 wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:Your statements would be true IF there was ZERO conditioning drug in Petra's system. Any amount of any substance that is found on someone's system used to alter their behavior in any direction creates false emotions the person thinks it to be true.
IMO, the above statement is impossible to get around. Petraís little mind is every bit as warped as any of the other girls. If you say that her love is pure and genuine, then youíre only seeing what you want to see.

Again, with respect, I'd argue that right back at you. I know a number of forum members believe Sandro and Petrushka are sexually active, but they have yet to show me a panel in the manga where they're in coitus. Hell, they can't even show it in a doujin or piece of fan artwork.

Instead, all I read are personal interpretations of panels colored by the beliefs of the person making the interpretations that because they think they're having sex, the actions Yu are drawing have sexual undertones and/or overtones.

As a counter-argument, I have provided multiple manga chapters of evidence drawn by Yu Aida where the characters explicitly state that Petrushka should not feel love for her handler, show surprise that she does, and claim they had nothing to do with it.

Petrushka's feelings for Alessandro may very well be influenced by the conditioning, but if it is, I believe they have to be in a very mild way as opposed to the overt way they are with the original girls.

Other then calling Mr. Aida before a Senate Investigative Committee, putting him under oath, and asking him these question directly, I don't see what more I can do to show his intent.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 13:28

I guess my question is this: Itís easy to believe that after all Triela and Hillshire have been through that she would genuinely love him. But whatís the story with Petra? Up until the time she declared her love for him (which was a ridiculously short time after they met) he treated her like shit. The guy was a total douche bag and still is. Iím at a lose to understand how a girl could so quickly fall in genuine love with such an asshole. Is she a complete idiot, or does she just have serious self esteem problems. Iíll tell you this - if Sandro had been teamed up with Triela, he would have been in for a rude awakening the first time he tried to get into her pants. Iím sorry, but I have to believe that Petra is defiantly under the influence.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 13:46

People fall in love for different reasons over different periods of time.

I've seen relationships like Alessandro's and Petrushka's happen in real life, so I don't find it unfathomable in fiction.

Petrushka may have a crush on Alessandro no less then Henrietta does on Giuseppe. Henrietta's crush happened the moment she laid eyes on Giuse and nothing he does to her will stop it (as we saw with Elsa in the anime) because her love for him started as a compulsion. As it has with Triela, Henrietta likely has real feelings for Giuse now and has "transcended" her conditioning just like Triela.

As for Petrushka, she didn't love Alessandro when she first laid eyes on him. But for whatever reasons, she now loves him. Maybe she has a strong sexual attraction for him and is confusing lust for love. God knows a lot of 16-year old girls (and boys) do. But for me, whether her feelings are deep or shallow, they formed independently.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 13:58

@Kiskaloo wrote:Maybe she has a strong sexual attraction for him and is confusing lust for love. God knows a lot of 16-year old girls (and boys) do.
This times a thousand. Let this statement go to your heads, people.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 14:08

You have to give Triela credit for the fact that she was able to sort though all of the crap that was heaped on her and come to a righteous conclusion.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 20:45

@GP wrote:You can't say that, you don't know for a fact that she wuldn't fall in love with him without the conditioning and the drugs.

All we have is what is said in the manga to go with. Like it was pointed out, the techs found out through they're tests that her love came natural. You can't deny they're surprised at finding this bit out, that's how the scene in the chapters plays out imo.

Also later on when she's talking with a few other 2nd gen girls they think her "love" is all in her head and don't believe her either.

The med tech are talking out of speculation because they themselves do not know what is going on. They speculate that it is nataural. They do not know that it is for a fact that this is a natural love from Petra, it is a speculated that it is.

When Petra speaks to the girls, she is speaking of an emotional memory and its reason, not because she remembers. The Manga makes Petra think that she is an adult in certain areas when she is not. And who knows what she and 'Sandro had spoken about prior to this meetings.

@GP wrote:While they say the 2nd gen goes through the same "conditioning" as the first gen, do we even have a stated list/chart or outline as to what that covers? I look at it as conditioning to get them ready to fight mentally. They get stuffed with all this data on weapons/tactics, and then on top have been made loyal to the section and their handlers.

Now that emotional bending which makes they loyal and devoted to no end to their handlers could be seen/mistaken for love, some don't question this though, but we do see Triela does early on. Though she says she loves her handler she doesn't know if it's real or not at that point.
Triela said it best in both the Anime and twice in the Manga (in V1 and in V10), "Conditioning and Love are simillar. I dont know how much are my own feelings."

We'll give it to Triela that she could sort out her feelings, but what feelings? She, herself, says that she does not know the difference. I'm saying that she knows what emotions are there and how to sort them but she does not know which ones are created by her own actions and which ones are manipulated by a chemical. Thus, she acknowledges all her emotions to be true to herself even though some of the emotions are falsely created by a drug. This will include Love as an emotion.

Thus, what applies to Triela and the First Gen Cyborgs and their conditioning. Petra underwent the same (maybe heavier) conditioning as the First Gen cyborgs. Thus this also applies to Petra as well.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 21:13

@ElfenMagix wrote:The med tech are talking out of speculation because they themselves do not know what is going on. They speculate that it is natural. They do not know that it is for a fact that this is a natural love from Petra, it is a speculated that it is.

I like to believe that Yu Aida draws the panels and dialog he does in the Gunslinger Girl manga for a reason. If they were speculating, I want to believe that he'd make that clear. Instead, he appears to be providing explicit statements (I am giving KR the courtesy that his translations are accurate).

When Petra speaks to the girls, she is speaking of an emotional memory and its reason, not because she remembers.

Petrushka believes she was being asked questions about why she loved her handler, and she in fact was. Because Henrietta has always loved Giuse since they first met, her love for Giuse has always just been there which is why she doesn't give any thought to there being a reason to love him. When Petrushka says that is strange, Henrietta gets scared and when she gets back she runs to Giuse crying that she doesn't remember when she started to love him and why and asks if that is strange. Giuse, who would know Henrietta was programmed to love her from Day One, says no to reassure her because that is what she believes and he has just reinforced it.


As for Petrushka's conditioning, since you and I have irreconcilable and diametrically-opposed differences on it, debating the point is impossible. So I won't comment on that.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by MadHatChemist on Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 1:28

Honestly, if it was thought it would strengthen the bond the cyborg
felt for the handler (or vice-versa), and therefore would make them
more effective, such relationships might very well be encouraged...

The agency is clearly moving away from having such a tight bond between cyborg and handler. Though ironically enough the smaller and more targeted level of conditioning could mean that the agency could use the cyborgs having sex with their fratello as a method of controlling the fratello!
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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 1:47

Iíll admit I donít like Petra, but thereís a small part of me that feels sorry for her plight. Sando is the very definition of bastard. But I guess it couldíve been worse - she could have got Lauro.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 10:43

@MadHatChemist wrote:The agency is clearly moving away from having such a tight bond between cyborg and handler. Though ironically enough the smaller and more targeted level of conditioning could mean that the agency could use the cyborgs having sex with their fratello as a method of controlling the fratello!

It might be why Dr. Belessario is interested in seeing how the "relationship" between Alessandro and Petrushka plays out.


@Danjo3 wrote:Iíll admit I donít like Petra, but thereís a small part of me that feels sorry for her plight. Sando is the very definition of bastard. But I guess it couldíve been worse - she could have got Lauro.

Honestly, both likely would have been better off. Petrushka would be unlikely to develop strong feelings on her own for him, so there would not be the risk of "the error" (as the medical staff refer to it) that happened with Elsa.

Lauro might have been a bit more open to an older girl who didn't follow him around like a love-struck puppy, but if he was just as cold and impersonal with Petrushka, they still would likely have worked out as a fratello.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 11:25

Petra is the very definition of love sick puppy. She fell faster and harder then Henrietta.

And I guess I donít need to bring up the fact that Sandro is a pedophile.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by LoC978 on Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 12:37

@Danjo3 wrote:Sandro is a pedophile.
that's a bit of a stretch, actually... there's a reason jailbait is called jailbait.

what 'Sandro is is a man with no ethical constraints when it comes to sex. He's an abuser of his authority.

...most of us (men) see a pretty young thing and get interested... then when it becomes apparent she's not just a young 20-something but rather is sixteen... we go Guh? and attempt to distance ourselves a bit.
This guy goes into a trainer/trainee, superior/subordinate, work relationship knowing full well that the girl is not only sixteen, but also brainwashed into hanging on his every word... and the second time she wants a kiss (and yes, her role in this was inevitable in the given situation), he gives it to her. Passionately. Makes one wonder if he even knows the meaning of self-control...

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 13:17

Remember - "fifteen will get ya twenty!"

That being said, the age of consent in Italy is 14, unless one of the participants has some kind of influence on the other. In that case, it is 16.

So Italian jurisprudence would take no issue with them being in a sexual relationship.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by LoC978 on Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 13:41

Which is one more reason I say that's not so much the issue. The issue is that she's his subordinate and trainee.

Dunno 'bout other military or paramilitary organizations, but pokin' your subordinates (especially if they're also trainees) in the US Army will (usually) get your authority taken away pretty quick.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by GP on Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 19:38

That whole boss x subordinate relationshp leading to love happens often, most work places have rules in place to stop it but that aside it does happen.

Add to that they're together alot, somethings going to happen.

But I'm with kiskaloo on the topic of Petra and her love.

But just to double check, is your stance for Triela that it's started out as a form from the conditioning but is now real/natural/honest love that she feels?

Because looking at her little arc, I don't think it was a coincidence everything that happend in those chapters did so when she was basically off of the drugs. To me, and maybe this is just how I see it, her "forgetting" her meds was used to show that the feelings we see from her aren't effected by them and are her own real ones.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 19:47

I guess old Sandro is in hog heaven living in a country were he can fuck 16 year olds. dancin\\'

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 19:47

I don't see how Triela's feelings can be interpreted as anything but genuine.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 20:02

Based on the words and actions Yu has given her, Triela has always had feelings for Hillshire.

Hillshire seems to generally treat Triela as "hands off" as much as possible. He told Marco in Chapter 2 that he finds it works better if he doesn't "hold Triela's hand" during training. He also tells Giuse in Chapter 3 that he won't drug her any more then he has to, but because of that his control over her is not absolute. She can read him and use his own feelings and emotions against him.

The big change was, of course, the arc across Volume 10. Mario Bossi told Triela in Chapter 3 that he and Hillshire broke up a child trafficking ring, but in Volume 10 he expanded on that information to note that she was one of the children they saved - saved from torture and sexual abuse - and that one of his co-workers was killed doing it.

At that point, I think it all clicked together in her head and she realized why he treated her the way he did and what he sacrificed to not just save her, but to give her a new life in the SWA and to protect her.

Quite simply, she owes him her life - many times over. I expect the emotional impact of that combined with the feelings she was conditioned to have for him and those she has independently built up with him over the years they worked together as a fratello along with her belief that she will not live much longer to decide that she wants to spend what time she has left with him and make that time as meaningful as possible.

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Re: Something for Petra and the older girls...

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