Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

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Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by emperor on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 7:30

It's like M203 under the M4 barrel but it is shotgun instead!!

I've seen this from Special Forces pocket book's header and curious why shotgun is there.

Please enlighten me,pal!!

Pictures will be very appreciates.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Whatface on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 8:07

I could be wrong. But I think it's for breaching doors and for use as a non-lethal weapon.

So you don't have to carry an additional shotgun around.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Whatface on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 8:28

picture


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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 11:15

That looks bloody complicated and unwieldy...

If you want to breach a door via a shotgun shell, just use the M203 with the buckshot round. Wink
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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Guest on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 11:41

...might as well create a new weapon with a shotgun included within it.

Like the Morita Rifle in Starship Troopers for example.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Wileama on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 13:02

LoC is probably the person that can answer this best, but I have some knowledge of this as well.

Anyway Whatface is more, or less spot on with this one. What he has pictured I believe is meant to be a replacement for this beast. This version is a bolt action as opposed to the pump action of the old model. My understanding is that shotguns tend to only really be used to blow the hinges off doors, or occasionally the lock if you are carrying the right specialty round. Thing is they like to have who ever breaches the door carry the machine gun, using that to clear the room. So an M4 attached to your shotgun is just more useless weight, and you don't tend to see these used as a result. That, and I would imagine the difficultly of wielding an underslung, plus the slower action makes them less appealing.

Anyway putting two rifles into one tends to be a bad idea. Weight, reliability, and/or cost usually ends up killing any such design.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by boomer_gonz on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 13:03

It could be a SWAT spec as those guys never get to use C4.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Tommygunner70 on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 13:22

The shot gun under the M4 can be used to attack someone, but its primary use is to breach doors with.

IOW: Blow the lock or hinges out.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Guest on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 13:47

So an M4 attached to your shotgun is just more useless weight, and you don't tend to see these used as a result

I don't think they even need shotguns anymore since they have invented the Javelin (was it that? I knew I saw it in future weapons before)

And I doubt SWAT would need an M4 with a shotgun attachment. Seriously cut the purpose of a carbine's mobility. That's why they have one of them carrying a shotgun.

Anyway putting two rifles into one tends to be a
bad idea. Weight, reliability, and/or cost usually ends up killing any
such design.
Although it looks kinda cool...I always want to have an Airsoft modeling a morita rifle--and working too!

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by LoC978 on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 15:14

*arrives on the scene too late*

-yes, the primary purpose of the XM26 shotgun attachment is door breaching. I even went through the 8-hour block of instruction for breach-and-clear operations when I was attached to the MPs as a surplus soldier. Sadly, we had to play mockup with an M203... since we had no Mossberg 870 underside attachments (Wil's 'monster'), much less XM26s.
-@Wil: the guy who breaches the door is the last one in, not the first. The second in line when a squad stacks on a doorway is the machine gunner, and the first one in the door.
-@Panzer: the FGM-148 Javelin is an antitank missile... it replaced the M47 Dragon in the 90s, and has nothing to do with door breaching (although there is no such thing as overkill, there is shrapnel and wasted money).

also,

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by boomer_gonz on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 15:29

As you said LoC.

"No such thing as overkill!"

:lol!:

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Piero on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 16:02

You know, in some ways I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to just come up with a lightweight tube-magged shotgun... because to be frank, while the Master Key may be heavy, it also looks much less unwieldly mounted on a M4 then that new lightweight one with the removable box magazines does. Course, that's just go by looks, I've never handled either.

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/rem870mcs_ax.jpg

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by emperor on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 20:21

Piero,is that too low for shotgun position?

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Piero on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 20:38

It is rather low. Probably because of the need to use some piece between the 870MCS's top rail (the 870 MCS is a modular system, and that rail can be used to mount optics when in stand alone configuration) and the M4's bottom rail.

Actually, the term 'Master Key' may be more properly applied to this item from Knight Armaments Corporation. Slightly different implementation, but somewhat similar. I wonder why there's sticks out past the end of the barrel though -either Remington's MCS variant is shorter, or perhaps the M4 in the other pick has a 16 inch barrel installed or something.

http://www.knightarmco.com/m203_12ga.html

Anyway, big problem with the Master Key is probably weight. Who the heck wants to add 5+ pounds to a M4?

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 20:47

So is the idea to fire multiple shotgun rounds into each hinge in order to allow the door to be forced?

Because, if so, doesn't that have the tendency to alert the folks inside that somebody's knocking?

If you only need one shot, I still say the M203 with the buckshot round is more efficient, at least, and probably as effective. Or that new "penetrating round" I've seen on Futureweapons. Hell, even the M651 CS round would probably work if you could modify the front to go through the door.
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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by LoC978 on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 21:00

@Kiskaloo wrote:So is the idea to fire multiple shotgun rounds into each hinge in order to allow the door to be forced?
yup. 2-3 per hinge, depending on the door.
@Kiskaloo wrote:Because, if so, doesn't that have the tendency to alert the folks inside that somebody's knocking?
yup... but that still only takes a few seconds... 7 min, 15 max for a practiced operator.
'course, this is all a moot point with steel doors.
@Kiskaloo wrote:If you only need one shot, I still say the M203 with the buckshot round is more efficient, at least, and probably as effective. Or that new "penetrating round" I've seen on Futureweapons. Hell, even the M651 CS round would probably work if you could modify the front to go through the door.
hmm, never seen any of that, though I've been told if you have breaching rounds it only takes one per hinge.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 21:11

@LoC978 wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:So is the idea to fire multiple shotgun rounds into each hinge in order to allow the door to be forced?
yup. 2-3 per hinge, depending on the door.
@Kiskaloo wrote:Because, if so, doesn't that have the tendency to alert the folks inside that somebody's knocking?
yup... but that still only takes a few seconds... 7 min, 15 max for a practiced operator. 'course, this is all a moot point with steel doors.

That's when you use the "Gate Crasher" from Alford Technologies and go through a wall, roof, or whatever. Wink

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Piero on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 22:13

There's also a 40mm explosive round called HELLHOUND (it's some weird, rather forced acronym) which was originally designed for enhanced lethality over previous 40mm explosive rounds. It's also proved to be an effective door breacher though. Apparently it can blow an inward hinged steel door out of its frame. Smile

Don't know if it has the 30 meter arming distance issue that other 40mm HE round have though.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Wileama on Thu 4 Dec 2008 - 0:30

@LoC978 wrote:-@Wil: the guy who breaches the door is the last one in, not the first. The second in line when a squad stacks on a doorway is the machine gunner, and the first one in the door.
Eh just going off what a friend who did convoy told me. I will defer to you for this then. Question though, how common is it for the point guy to carry one of these things then? Cool pic by the way.

Anyway I would imagine there might be issues with breaching using a 40mm, besides just the stand off distance. You also have to realize that just, because the army is knocking on the door, even violently, that they aren't always looking to kill everyone in the room. If you do use a Hellhound, or to knock a door down you could very well be looking at shrapnel injuries on the other side of the door. Using a shotgun does not incur the same risk to occupants of the room.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Awinnell on Thu 4 Dec 2008 - 12:10

you could also use the Israeli, simon door breaching rifle grenade,it was designed from the outset to be used against steel reinforced doors,as i understand it the round uses a standoff charge exploding a foot or so from the door,the pressure wave pops the door open without major structural damage

http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/area.aspx?FolderID=342&docID=1005
Main Features:


  • Increases the element of surprise
  • Lightweight (680 gr)
  • Range: 15 - 30 meters (static SIMON, which is attached to the door is also available)
  • Fired with regular live bullets
  • Insensitive Munitions (IM)
  • Minimizes injury risk and damage to property
  • Easily adaptable to a variety of rifles
  • Simple to operate








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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Guest on Thu 4 Dec 2008 - 12:18

Gomen LoC-sen, its not the Javelin (I thought it was since it looks like one)

Its the SIMON. You don't need some shotgun in Iraq when you have the SIMON to handle door breaching and knock insurgents by surprise!


you could also use the Israeli, simon door
breaching rifle grenade,it was designed from the outset to be used
against steel reinforced doors,as i understand it the round uses a
standoff charge exploding a foot or so from the door,the pressure wave
pops the door open without major structural damage

http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/area.aspx?FolderID=342&docID=1005
Main Features:


  • Increases the element of surprise
  • Lightweight (680 gr)
  • Range: 15 - 30 meters (static SIMON, which is attached to the door is also available)
  • Fired with regular live bullets
  • Insensitive Munitions (IM)
  • Minimizes injury risk and damage to property
  • Easily adaptable to a variety of rifles
  • Simple to operate

Yeah, that one.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by LoC978 on Thu 4 Dec 2008 - 13:48

can't stack troops on a door if you're blowing it up... but yeah, if it's a steel door, that's a good option. for wood, you get people in faster with the old master key.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Piero on Thu 4 Dec 2008 - 18:21

So out of curiosity LOC, how do you think the utility of a Master Key style shotgun compares to just carrying a shotgun along with a carbine? (Which I've heard of people doing as well.) I'll admit that a stand alone weapon is probably a little heavier and it makes switching between weapons awkward, but on the other hand, that way you're not adding five pounds to the underside of a rifle.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by LoC978 on Thu 4 Dec 2008 - 21:14

... there's no definite answer to that one, Piero. It's all up to an individual's personal preference. Personally, I find having a second, full sized weapon slung across my back hinders my movement pretty badly, while some people have no trouble with it at all. Also, to some, five extra pounds added to a rifle is a big deal, while carrying a 23 pound light machine gun (an extra fifteen pounds over the basic rifle) is no big deal to me.
So, I'm a fan of (and a good candidate for the use of) the master key. Many people would rather have a Benelli M4 strapped to their back... and they're right to. Whatever works for you.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Piero on Thu 4 Dec 2008 - 21:33

Ah.

Part of the reason I was asking was that I believe I'd heard that lighter weapons can be brought to bear faster then heavier ones, which can be a serious issue in CQB. Is that more or less true? (That was really one of the reason I was asking, since a M4 with a Master Key actually compares pretty well to a M16 with a M203 in the weight department... hardly too heavy to carry, but possibly heavy enough to slow the operator down in close quarters fighting.)

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by LoC978 on Thu 4 Dec 2008 - 22:52

quite true.. though again that varies person to person. For instance, a 200lb man in excellent physical condition could probably bring an M16 with an 870MCS to bear faster than an average 160lb man could raise a plain old M4. So, if weapon weight is a big issue for a person, they probably shouldn't be the carrier for the master key, unless they're comfortable moving with a shotgun on their back.
If this question was in relation to a cyborg, then no, it wouldn't be noticeably slower to bring to bear than any other rifle, since they possess superhuman strength.

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by Piero on Fri 5 Dec 2008 - 1:03

True, but you gotta remember, I don't just write Gunslinger Girl fanfiction. Smile

Out of curiosity, why is it the guy with the machine gun who typically goes in first? It it a matter of that being the best way to deploy a squad's weapons in general (it does seem to make some sense to have a weapon that has a lot of firepower but is somewhat clumsy cover the area in front while the weapons that are more responsive but less capable of sustained fire provide back up) or is that done largely because so many US Army rifles and carbines are equipped with burst limiters?

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Re: Shotgun under M4 barrel ?

Post by LoC978 on Fri 5 Dec 2008 - 1:22

Well, there's the intimidation factor of the SAW to be considered (especially once that thing starts firing, there's a reason it's primarily a suppressive fire weapon), and if there's nothing but hostiles in the room, a SAW gunner is the best person to have up there opening fire. Also, team members 3, 4 and 1 will only be a fraction of a second behind, sweeping left, right and rear (up, possible balcony threats and such) with their more nimble weapons. If there's nothing left or right, the SAW gunner quickly has rifleman backup anyway.
Additionally, not every fire team will have a SAW gunner. It may very well be an unadorned M4, or an M4/M203 that heads in first.

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