When Jean hit Rico.....

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When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by emperor on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 2:42

What's in his mind first and after?:face:

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 4:44

The first thing on his mind was, "You stupid little bitch!"

Then he slapped her.

After that, the thought that was on his mind was, "You stupid little bitch!"

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by emperor on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 4:45

Nothing change before and after?

Very Happy

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 5:01

depends upon the circumstances leading up to him hitting her (and don't say it was just because he wanted to blow off some steam, and he's a sadist. Jean isn't some unstable loose cannon. He's cold, calculating, and most of all, he feels dead inside). in my fanfiction where he kicks her in the nose his thoughts go something like this:
"How the fuck could you make such a stupid move in combat?! I didn't take this job to watch you get yourself killed out there, I took it to have you kill more terrorists for Sofia!"

oh, and it's my opinion that he did considerably more than just slap her to make her bleed in the canon material. I'm thinking they're slightly more resistant to blunt-force trauma than average little girls.
(not to say a baseball bat wouldn't do significant cosmetic damage, but I don't think an open palmed slap would draw blood. it was more likely either a palm strike, or, considering their height differential, a kick... and punching is out, because I don't think Jean would be stupid enough to break his hand on her armored skull just because he prefers a closed fist)
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 5:28

@LoC978 wrote:depends upon the circumstances leading up to him hitting her (and don't say it was just because he wanted to blow off some steam, and he's a sadist. Jean isn't some unstable loose cannon. He's cold, calculating, and most of all, he feels dead inside). in my fanfiction where he kicks her in the nose his thoughts go something like this:
"How the fuck could you make such a stupid move in combat?! I didn't take this job to watch you get yourself killed out there, I took it to have you kill more terrorists for Sofia!"
It's really hard to say just what's going through his head at this point. Back in vols.1-5, he was a total jerk. As of vol.6, he seems to have softened up a little bit (and I stress - a little bit) and later still (vol.9 I think) he hugs her. I would love to know what led up to that. Translations anyone?

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by emperor on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 5:33

because I don't think Jean would be stupid enough to break his hand on her armored skull

Good,LoC! How about using his gun slap Rico face? :pirat:

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 5:40

pistol-whip. hadn't considered that one. very possible.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by emperor on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 5:45

Wiki had pistol-whip info?!

Never know before. WOW :bball:

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 5:52

wikipedia has an article on every pop-culture reference I've ever tried to look up. it's fuckin' HUGE

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 5:54

@LoC978 wrote:oh, and it's my opinion that he did considerably more than just slap her to make her bleed in the canon material. I'm thinking they're slightly more resistant to blunt-force trauma than average little girls.
I doubt they have armor plater lips.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 5:56

One don't need Wikipedia to know what pistol-whipping is.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 5:57

@Danjo3 wrote:As of vol.6, he seems to have softened up a little bit (and I stress - a little bit) and later still (vol.9 I think) he hugs her. I would love to know what led up to that.
considering we have translations for volumes 1-6, and the only hints we have into Jean's change of heart are in volume 6 (at Sofia's grave, and his dream where he argues with Enrica)... the only things I can think of is either he's starting to let go of the past, or Rico has finally become as proficient as he wanted her to be all along.
@Danjo3 wrote:I doubt they have armor plater lips
wouldn't need 'em.
I doubt they have natural blood vessels or skin.
@Nachtsider wrote:One don't need Wikipedia to know what pistol-whipping is.
one never knows just how many English phrases carry over to other cultures. if I said 'pistol whip' to your average english speaking German, I doubt he/she would get the reference (probably think it's some kind of idiotic hybrid weapon idea). plus, I like putting easter eggs in my posts. I'm weird like that.


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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 6:09

@LoC978 wrote:the only things I can think of is either he's starting to let go of the past, or Rico has finally become as proficient as he wanted her to be all along.
Or maybe she's just starting to grow on him. Maybe she's worming her way into his heart - whether he likes it or not.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by emperor on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 6:10

@Danjo3 wrote:
@LoC978 wrote:the only things I can think of is either he's starting to let go of the past, or Rico has finally become as proficient as he wanted her to be all along.
Or maybe she's just starting to grow on him. Maybe she's worming her way into his heart - whether he likes it or not.

This is very DIRECT to Jean story!!!!!!!!!!!!cheers

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 6:20

@Danjo3 wrote:Or maybe she's just starting to grow on him. Maybe she's worming her way into his heart - whether he likes it or not
... I think that would be as a result of him softening on his own, letting himself treat her like a person finally (and please don't say he couldn't see that she was a real person before that... he's not stupid, he was just being willfully ignorant). he'd have to start letting go of the past for that...
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by emperor on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 6:23

to be a new Jean!! Laughing

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 6:42

@LoC978 wrote:he'd have to start letting go of the past for that..
What does Rico have to do with his past?

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 7:08

directly, nothing (save for a pseudonym of the male form of his sister's name). indirectly, she represents his present and future. the way I see it, he's living in the past, wanting nothing more than to see his family and fiance avenged. he won't let himself truly 'live' again until the Republican Faction is no more:

... or maybe he's changing, realizing that he can't go on being the cold-hearted killing machine he wants to be, because life is forcing itself on him. So he lets himself treat Rico like a person, instead of continually trying to mold her into an absolutely perfect killing machine. Also, maybe he realizes just how much bigger Padania is than he first thought. Maybe having a hundred Ricos running around trying to flush them out and kill them wouldn't be enough to do it any time soon. No one wants to die a bitter old man whose life's work is unfinished. So maybe he's shifting the focus of his life's work a little.
Hopefully we'll see how it all pans out when we get later translations.

-Just remember: anyone who tells you "people don't change" is full of shit. People do change; they just change very, very slowly.

... human nature, on the other hand, doesn't change. There will alway be people doing completely fucked-up shit to other people.


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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 8:40

The mourning period for humans is between 2 to 4 years, usually ending when they resolve their love one's death. Jean anywhere between the end or the middle of his mourning period, so currently, hs is living in the past.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 8:43

The mourning period for humans is between 2 to 4 years
... that's a bit generalized. I've seen people not let go for over a decade, and have grief haunt them to their grave... also, I've seen people let go in very little time. personally, I seem to be a bit of a coldhearted bastard. I mourned my maternal grandmother at her funeral. then I mourned my paternal grandmother at her funeral. I mourned a close friend for about three months. to pull a quote from the outtakes of Serenity-
Mal: *looks off into the distance* "I've seen so much death..." *begins dancing with Inara*


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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 8:52

Personal experience on this end is 15 years.
And as hinted on my fanfict- "A Mission Gone Too Personal"
since 1997, things have been a lot easier...

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Fri 12 Oct 2007 - 23:08

So little time, so much to say...

Jean is a hurt man. He is an angry man. He lost his little sister to terrorists. You would think this is the last job he would take. A job where he hangs out with little girls all day. Little girls like his sister. Even his brother has issues being around his cyborg.

The last thing Jeans bleeding heart wants to do is get close to another innocent little girl. An innocent girl who may die the same death his sister did. I think he's scared to death of hurting like that again.

It's only natural that he's buried his feelings for this girl. To afraid to deal with them again. He does everything he can to not get close to this girl. Giving her a boys name, treating her like a thing, maybe even hitting her.

Fuck I have to go to work. I'll finish this half finished post.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Sat 13 Oct 2007 - 0:30

maybe even hitting her.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Jean does hit Rico, hell, he probably beats the living shit out of her. But it's not because he enjoys it, or is blowing off steam. It's training. if a person is used to being struck, used to having fists, feet, knives, tire irons, et cetera, swung at them, they don't flinch when someone tries to actually hurt or kill them with such things. They fight. In Rico's case, she kills and/or tortures. Jean does these things because he's trying to turn Rico into a perfect weapon.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 13 Oct 2007 - 4:05

@LoC978 wrote:
maybe even hitting her.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Jean does hit Rico, hell, he probably beats the living shit out of her.
Rico showed up at Triela'a door with a bloody lip and said that Jean was responsible. There's no maybe about it.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Sat 13 Oct 2007 - 8:32

@Danjo3 wrote:Rico showed up at Triela'a door with a bloody lip and said that Jean was responsible.
she also said Jean 'just scolded her' and acted like it was nothing more than the status quo. tough little girl. imagine a perp's surprise if he boots her full-force in the face and she doesn't flinch, just rolls with the blow and...
whereas if it happened to... say... Henrietta, it'd most likely surprise her and maybe knock her to the floor for a moment.


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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Sat 13 Oct 2007 - 12:59

@LoC978 wrote:I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Jean does hit Rico, hell, he probably beats the living shit out of her. But it's not because he enjoys it, or is blowing off steam. It's training.
@Danjo3 wrote:Rico showed up at Triela'a door with a bloody lip and said that Jean was responsible. There's no maybe about it.

Your missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying Jean hits Rico for kicks. I'm not saying it doesn't serve as training. I'm not saying he doesn't hit her. What I am saying is that hitting her might be another way he stay emotionally detached from Rico. Jean does everything he can to make Rico something other then human. Other then a small little girl that reminds him of his dead little sister.

Rico is a walking remind of the broken heart he has in his chest. So he hates her. He hates her, because she reminds him of that pain. More importantly he hates her so he doesn't get close to her. Jean isn't looking to mourn another little sister. Which isn't to say that he doesn't love her. Clearly in the later volumes he warms up to her some what. Whether it's because he's finally getting over his little sister, or he just can't deny he cares about Rico.

I'm not saying he's less of an ass for it. Just, because he has his problems doesn't mean Rico should have to pay for them. Don't try excusing it as training, Rico gets treated badly, probably worse then she needs to be. She has one of the highest levels of conditioning, and thus one the shortest life spans. Why, because Jean, in part, doesn't want another little sister.

Though to be fair, I think it helps to show just how badly Jean and Jose want revenge. Their doing something that they hate on some level. They take little girls, little girls like their sister, and give them a short life full of violence. They walk around with reminds of their painful past. Sure it's not all bad. Still it makes you realize how pissed off they are. Batman doesn't have shit on the Croce.

Anyway if this doesn't seem terrible Coherent forgive me. I'm thinking out loud.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Sat 13 Oct 2007 - 19:40

@Wileama wrote:Your missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying Jean hits Rico for kicks. I'm not saying it doesn't serve as training. I'm not saying he doesn't hit her. What I am saying is that hitting her might be another way he stay emotionally detached from Rico. Jean does everything he can to make Rico something other then human. Other then a small little girl that reminds him of his dead little sister.
quite possible. it just doesn't feel right to me. Jean seems too cold to me for him to do something that petty. *shrug* I could be dead wrong, though.
... and even if you're right and he doesn't mean for it to serve as training, it does serve her as training. Quite well.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 13 Oct 2007 - 20:50

This does poses a question... Rico and the other cyborgs have a reinforced skull. How hard did Jean hit her in order for her to bleed?

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Sat 13 Oct 2007 - 21:10

her skull would have nothing to do with how hard she needs to be hit in order to bleed. the question is how tough the artificial flesh and skin that makes up their face is.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 13 Oct 2007 - 21:31

@LoC978 wrote:her skull would have nothing to do with how hard she needs to be hit in order to bleed. the question is how tough the artificial flesh and skin that makes up their face is.

A Bloody Nose us from rupture of the capillaries inside the sinuses... unless the small arteries and veins that enter/exit the area rupture, then you have a heavy bleeder. Best way to to get one of those is to hit the intended target hard between the eyebrows. That ruptures a vien just under the sinus plate and ewww... its a nose bleeder that lasts for hours.

Had to deal with those in my carrer.

So, he had to have whacked Rico hard to do it... question is, was he holding his broken hand between his legs, realizing that it was the wrong to do... again?!!
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Sat 13 Oct 2007 - 21:52

... she was bleeding from the corner of her mouth.

and:
@ElfenMagix wrote:So, he had to have whacked Rico hard to do it... question is, was he holding his broken hand between his legs, realizing that it was the wrong to do... again?!!
I wrote:in the fourth post of the thread:
... it was more likely either a palm strike, or, considering their height differential, a kick... and punching is out, because I don't think Jean would be stupid enough to break his hand on her armored skull just because he prefers a closed fist
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by emperor on Sat 13 Oct 2007 - 23:54

Just both of you talking here? 8)

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 0:33

@Wileama wrote:Rico is a walking remind of the broken heart he has in his chest. So he hates her. He hates her, because she reminds him of that pain. More importantly he hates her so he doesn't get close to her. Jean isn't looking to mourn another little sister. Which isn't to say that he doesn't love her. Clearly in the later volumes he warms up to her some what. Whether it's because he's finally getting over his little sister, or he just can't deny he cares about Rico.
I agree 100%. In the old forum we had this same discusion and I argued for the very point your making now.
@Wileama wrote:Just, because he has his problems doesn't mean Rico should have to pay for them. Don't try excusing it as training, Rico gets treated badly, probably worse then she needs to be. She has one of the highest levels of conditioning, and thus one the shortest life spans. Why, because Jean, in part, doesn't want another little sister.
Again I agree. The argument that using Rico as a punching bag in the name of training is bullshit. If slapping them around made them better at their jobs, all of the handlers would be doing it. There's no excuse for the way Jean treats Rico (or possibly was treating her). Triela is the best there is and she's not abused. Yes it's true Hillshire almost popped her once, but it was not because of her job performance, it was because she was being a little smart-ass, which by the way is no excuse either.

Of course, if you really want to get technical about it, the entire SWA is based on child abuse...

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 8:03

@Danjo3 wrote:Again I agree. The argument that using Rico as a punching bag in the name of training is bullshit. If slapping them around made them better at their jobs, all of the handlers would be doing it.
no, the fact that the military doesn't use physical punishment (outside of specops) anymore is bullshit. The other handlers don't have the heart to beat their wards, and who can blame them? I wouldn't either.
@Danjo3 wrote:There's no excuse for the way Jean treats Rico (or possibly was treating her).
there is one excuse: he doesn't(didn't?) see her as what she is, he saw her as what she was 'designed' to be: a weapon.
@Danjo3 wrote:Triela is the best there is and she's not abused.
because Hillshire isn't a hand-to-hand combat specialist. But he did bring one infor her, who beat her as hard as Jean beats Rico. Hillshire mostly treats her as an adult and a partner, so he doen't skimp on her training either. Jean has other responsibilities, and so doesn't devote as much time to Rico.
@danjo3 wrote:Of course, if you really want to get technical about it, the entire SWA is based on child abuse...
'tis true... but at least they're never the first ones to abuse the child.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 10:41

Let me try and clarify. Understanding a persons motives and condoning his actions are two different things. I know damn good and well why Jean chooses to hit a defenseless little girl in the face (yes, in a fratello situation, she is totally defenseless) but it sure as hell doesn’t make me feel any better about it. LoC978, all of the whys you have provided us are more then likely true, but at the same time, all of those whys amount to nothing more then a big heaping pile of BULLSHIT! Jean might have thought he was doing the right thing but he wasn’t. He was wrong - DEAD WRONG! And Rico paid the price. You can talk until you’re blue in the face, but you will never convince me that Jean was justified in what he did. A man, a REAL man would never do such a thing to a child.

But then again, as I said earlier, everyone at the SWA is guilty of child abuse, so the above argument is a little on the mute side… but you know what I mean.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Sintendo on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 14:56

*Rocks back and forth in a corner*

J-J-J-Jean isn't a robot... I-I-I proved it! heheheheheheheheheh! Heh... I proved it months before volume 6 came out! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!

*runs away*




...


Anyways, if there's one positive (and I use the term loosely) that came out of Jean's child abusing hands, it's that Rico is probably the baddest of the bunch. Hell, I have no doubt in my mind that Pinocchio would have been slaughtered if he went aginst Rico instead of Triela.

...Well, not slaughtered... mangled... yes, mangled is a better term.

:lol!:
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 19:16

@Danjo3 wrote:Let me try and clarify. Understanding a persons motives and condoning his actions are two different things. I know damn good and well why Jean chooses to hit a defenseless little girl in the face (yes, in a fratello situation, she is totally defenseless) but it sure as hell doesn’t make me feel any better about it. LoC978, all of the whys you have provided us are more then likely true, but at the same time, all of those whys amount to nothing more then a big heaping pile of BULLSHIT! Jean might have thought he was doing the right thing but he wasn’t. He was wrong - DEAD WRONG! And Rico paid the price. You can talk until you’re blue in the face, but you will never convince me that Jean was justified in what he did. A man, a REAL man would never do such a thing to a child.

But then again, as I said earlier, everyone at the SWA is guilty of child abuse, so the above argument is a little on the mute side… but you know what I mean.
I see now where you're coming from. You're right, to a point. An adult should never strike a child... and children should never be the victims of crimes... and they should never have terminal illnesses. But they do. That's one of the most basic premises that the story of GSG operates on. Shit happens, even to children. Some shit is necessary to prevent other shit, though.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Sintendo on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 19:25

@LoC978 wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:Let me try and clarify. Understanding a persons motives and condoning his actions are two different things. I know damn good and well why Jean chooses to hit a defenseless little girl in the face (yes, in a fratello situation, she is totally defenseless) but it sure as hell doesn’t make me feel any better about it. LoC978, all of the whys you have provided us are more then likely true, but at the same time, all of those whys amount to nothing more then a big heaping pile of BULLSHIT! Jean might have thought he was doing the right thing but he wasn’t. He was wrong - DEAD WRONG! And Rico paid the price. You can talk until you’re blue in the face, but you will never convince me that Jean was justified in what he did. A man, a REAL man would never do such a thing to a child.

But then again, as I said earlier, everyone at the SWA is guilty of child abuse, so the above argument is a little on the mute side… but you know what I mean.
I see now where you're coming from. You're right, to a point. An adult should never strike a child... and children should never be the victims of crimes... and they should never have terminal illnesses. But they do. That's one of the most basic premises that the story of GSG operates on. Shit happens, even to children. Some shit is necessary to prevent other shit, though.

Woah woah woah.... woah...

I disagree about the scolding to a point. I've been hit as a child (not to the point of bleeding, mind you. Minor swelling and brusies, but no blood.) and I'm fine and dandy. Many parents, especially U.S. minorities tend to agree as well. I'll gladly spank/slap/whip-with-a-belt my kids if they were ever out of line.

An unruly child is one who has never been spanked. Instead, they're mommy's most precious little monster and allowed to "express" themselves. Fuck you soccer moms. FUCK YOU.


There, I said it.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 19:31

By strike I mean the way an adult would strike another adult with the intent of causing harm. Disciplinary spankings and such aren't a full-force strike. I agree that children should be disciplined by their guardians. I was, and I feel I have far more self-discipline because of it.

also:
@Sintendo wrote:Anyways, if there's one positive (and I use the term loosely) that came out of Jean's child abusing hands, it's that Rico is probably the baddest of the bunch. Hell, I have no doubt in my mind that Pinocchio would have been slaughtered if he went aginst Rico instead of Triela.
the first time, too. there would've been no "Freeze! Don't move, Padania!" there would've been two shots with no warnings, and two bodies hitting the floor... and I don't think Jean would've fallen for what Hillshire did. He probably would've told Franca to drop the pistol, then kicked her in the back of the knee, stomped her into the ground, and called in Rico to frisk her for weapons, tie her hands, and beat her on general principle.
-brutality gets shit done.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 21:40

@Sintendo wrote:Woah woah woah.... woah...

I disagree about the scolding to a point. I've been hit as a child (not to the point of bleeding, mind you. Minor swelling and brusies, but no blood.) and I'm fine and dandy. Many parents, especially U.S. minorities tend to agree as well. I'll gladly spank/slap/whip-with-a-belt my kids if they were ever out of line.

An unruly child is one who has never been spanked. Instead, they're mommy's most precious little monster and allowed to "express" themselves. Fuck you soccer moms. FUCK YOU.


There, I said it.
Wow… really… umm… really?

*Unable to even try and deal with that comment, I awkwardly turn away and attempt to change the subject*

Soooo, how abot them Rockies?

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 21:51

sports team? bah.
Yuppies tend not to actually raise their kids. They just go to social events hosted by other yuppie parents. The kids raise each other (unless the parents are wealthier than most other yuppies, then the kids are raised by poor immigrant employees {read:slaves}).
Fuck I hate yuppies...

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 22:08

@LoC978 wrote:sports team? bah.
Yuppies tend not to actually raise their kids. They just go to social events hosted by other yuppie parents. The kids raise each other (unless the parents are wealthier than most other yuppies, then the kids are raised by poor immigrant employees {read:slaves}).
Fuck I hate yuppies...
Where did that come from?

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 22:49

By the way Sintendo, I think Pinocchio would have made mincemeat out of Rico. She wouldn't have stood a chance. It would be like a lamb to the slaughter.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 23:50

@Danjo3 wrote:Where did that come from?
it was my disdain for the state of "professional sports" (which is me making an assumption as to what the "Rockies" are, I apologize if you meant the mountain range or something) and an agreement with:
@Sintendo wrote:An unruly child is one who has never been spanked. Instead, they're mommy's most precious little monster and allowed to "express" themselves. Fuck you soccer moms. FUCK YOU.
-
@Danjo3 wrote:By the way Sintendo, I think Pinocchio would have made mincemeat out of Rico. She wouldn't have stood a chance. It would be like a lamb to the slaughter.
Care to explain that, rather than simply speaking in generalizations? Lay out a scenario, maybe? When two professionals meet in combat, neither is ever guaranteed to win. It depends heavily on situation, terrain, armament, the element of surprise, et cetera. It's my opinion that between Pino and Rico, the one that gets the jump on the other would win. Rico couldn't stand up to Pino in a close-in struggle, and Pino could never close the distance on Rico if she was aware of his presence. At least not without getting riddled with holes.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 2:08

Note: Man, wrote this entire thing. Then lost it to a fucking upload failure... :x

@LoC978 wrote:quite possible. it just doesn't feel right to me. Jean seems too cold to me for him to do something that petty. *shrug* I could be dead wrong, though.
... and even if you're right and he doesn't mean for it to serve as training, it does serve her as training. Quite well.
I understand completely, I've felt the same way many times. I'll try to break it down in a way which settles with you better. First you have realize that Jeans cold calculating exterior is just that, an exterior. Delve a bit deep and I think you'll find a man boiling over with emotion. I mean think about, Jean helped create an organization based around turning little girls into assassins. Little girls, not unlike his sister, get a short violent life, with plenty of suffering. Why, so he can have bloody, bloody revenge on the people who pissed him off.

That, and you really think he's beyond petty? He gave Rico a boys name so he could be more comfortable. That's pretty petty. Besides haven't you ever done something without understanding why. Maybe Jean gets angry with Rico with out realize why.

@LoC978 wrote:no, the fact that the military doesn't use physical punishment (outside of specops) anymore is bullshit. The other handlers don't have the heart to beat their wards, and who can blame them? I wouldn't either.
Wait I'm confused, are you say their still beating up kids at basic. Or that they should? If it's the former I can say with certainty that they don't hit trainees in the Air Force any more. Well at least not till you get to MTI training...

@LoC978 wrote:there is one excuse: he doesn't(didn't?) see her as what she is, he saw her as what she was 'designed' to be: a weapon.
Rico is designed to be a weapon, I wont argue that. However that isn't to say Rico is only a weapon. She is still a little girl. I can understand her getting banged up in training, especially when it's hand to hand. Considering the girls learn lessons of life, and death I can understand serious punishments when the screw up during training. Squats in the mud, lots of push ups, extra duties, that kind of thing. That's not hitting a girl so hard that she starts bleeding.

LoC does have a good point though. It is an imperfect world, especially inside the SWA. Rico could have had done much worse then Jean, see Lauro. Jean at the very least realizes he has to keep Rico happy, and though he maybe conflicted about he does care about her. Not to mention he appears to show the ability to mature in his relationship with Rico.

Finally slapping like, the kind parents use occasionally to discipline their children. Yeah no problems with that. Though it does seem kinda weird to me. That, and one would think that conditioning would render the need for that kind of punishment more or less useless.

@Sintendo wrote:*Rocks back and forth in a corner*

J-J-J-Jean isn't a robot... I-I-I proved it! heheheheheheheheheh! Heh... I proved it months before volume 6 came out! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!

*runs away*
Wait, what did we do to break Sintendo?!

@Sintendo wrote:Anyways, if there's one positive (and I use the term loosely) that came out of Jean's child abusing hands, it's that Rico is probably the baddest of the bunch. Hell, I have no doubt in my mind that Pinocchio would have been slaughtered if he went aginst Rico instead of Triela.
@LoC978 wrote:the first time, too. there would've been no "Freeze! Don't move, Padania!" there would've been two shots with no warnings, and two bodies hitting the floor... and I don't think Jean would've fallen for what Hillshire did. He probably would've told Franca to drop the pistol, then kicked her in the back of the knee, stomped her into the ground, and called in Rico to frisk her for weapons, tie her hands, and beat her on general principle.
-brutality gets shit done.
Until we see Triela, and Rico duke it out there's not way to be sure. However I'm not so certain. Like Triela, I don't think Rico has ever had to really develop her hand to had skills. Mostly Rico's hand to hand seems to be beating people to get them to squeal.

As for the first time, if it had been Rico they might not have been able to find Pino. You have to remember that it was at least in part due to Triela ability to operate independently that they found him. Not to mention it was Triela's gun-ho nature that got them to go in. When she finally did stumble upon the Franco, and Pino she probably though: Well I've got the drop on them. So I can capture them, and get a whole ton of intel. If they try to resist I'll drop them like all the other terrorists I've faced. It just happens that these two are a lot better then the shit she's been up against.

Now if Jean hadn't said anything about intel, Rico probably would have just dropped both of them then and there. He might have said that though. Hilshire would have been able to trust Triela to make that kind of decision. Jean wouldn't be able to do that. Triela's greatest strength is her adaptability. Besides in volume six, who do you see running the room clearing exercise. Triela, not Rico, or even other handlers...

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 2:28

@LoC978 wrote:... and I don't think Jean would've fallen for what Hillshire did. He probably would've told Franca to drop the pistol, then kicked her in the back of the knee, stomped her into the ground, and called in Rico to frisk her for weapons, tie her hands, and beat her on general principle.

The outcome of Hillshire's encounter with Franca always struck me as being quite inexplicable, considering every good counter-terrorist is supposed to know the following:

Herr Starr wrote:Shoot the women first. Any female terrorist operative has had to work at least ten times as hard as her male counterparts to be accepted in their organization. She will be more able, will react quicker, and will generally be much more dangerous. Incapacitate her first.

In my fanfiction, Hillshire was supposed to be ex-GSG9 along with the time he spent with Interpol. Wonder if I'll have to retcon this as well...
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by emperor on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 3:35

Hillshire was supposed to be ex-GSG9 along with the time he spent with Interpol.

Great Hilshire!

Yu Ida should use this type be real in GSG.

Just my thought.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 8:43

@LoC978 wrote:
Care to explain that, rather than simply speaking in generalizations?
Of all the girls, Treila has the highest skill level. She has Agency and special Op’s training. As Wileama said, in vol.6, she’s training Rico. If Rico had gone up against someone like Pinocchio, who by the way was trained by a former American CIA agent, I think she would have gotten her ass handed to her on a platter. She might be an excellent sniper and have a talent for beating the crap out people who aren’t fighting back, but when it comes to CQC, she’s got nothing on the Princess.


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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 12:20

@Wileama wrote:Wait I'm confused, are you say their still beating up kids at basic. Or that they should? If it's the former I can say with certainty that they don't hit trainees in the Air Force any more. Well at least not till you get to MTI training...
the latter. I've served with many people who should never have been allowed to pass through basic. Unfortunately, they had all four limbs and a good set of lungs... and that's all it takes anymore.
@Wileama wrote:However that isn't to say Rico is only a weapon. She is still a little girl.
agreed. My point is that Jean refused to allow himself to admit that, at least early on.
@Wileama wrote:Until we see Triela, and Rico duke it out there's not way to be sure. However I'm not so certain. Like Triela, I don't think Rico has ever had to really develop her hand to had skills. Mostly Rico's hand to hand seems to be beating people to get them to squeal.
@Danjo3 wrote:Of all the girls, Treila has the highest skill level. She has Agency and special Op’s training. As Wileama said, in vol.6, she’s training Rico. If Rico had gone up against someone like Pinocchio, who by the way was trained by a former American CIA agent, I think she would have gotten her ass handed to her on a platter. She might be an excellent sniper and have a talent for beating the crap out people who aren’t fighting back, but when I comes to CQC, she’s got nothing on the Princess.
already addressed this. this is not dragon ball z, there's no ZOMG! HIGH POWER(skill) LEVEL=WIN! I do not think Rico is a more skilled combatant than Triela. She's more brutal, and doesn't carry rifles(or shotguns) into buildings. Pistol=quicker in close quarters.
I wrote:When two professionals meet in combat, neither is ever guaranteed to win. It depends heavily on situation, terrain, armament, the element of surprise, et cetera. It's my opinion that between Pino and Rico, the one that gets the jump on the other would win. Rico couldn't stand up to Pino in a close-in struggle, and Pino could never close the distance on Rico if she was aware of his presence. At least not without getting riddled with holes.


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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 12:30

@Wileama wrote:As for the first time, if it had been Rico they might not have been able to find Pino. You have to remember that it was at least in part due to Triela ability to operate independently that they found him. Not to mention it was Triela's gun-ho nature that got them to go in. When she finally did stumble upon the Franco, and Pino she probably though: Well I've got the drop on them. So I can capture them, and get a whole ton of intel. If they try to resist I'll drop them like all the other terrorists I've faced. It just happens that these two are a lot better then the shit she's been up against.

Now if Jean hadn't said anything about intel, Rico probably would have just dropped both of them then and there. He might have said that though. Hilshire would have been able to trust Triela to make that kind of decision. Jean wouldn't be able to do that. Triela's greatest strength is her adaptability. Besides in volume six, who do you see running the room clearing exercise. Triela, not Rico, or even other handlers...
I agree completely with that. I was just inserting Jean and Rico into Hillshire and Triela's situation, ignoring the lead-up. It never would've happened. Nevertheless, I still say Rico would stand a better chance against Pinnochio in any situation where she got the drop on him. However, Triela has a far better chance than Rico when he gets the drop on her.

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