When Jean hit Rico.....

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Guest on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 21:08

This ends up being a "nature vs nurture" type discussion. I believe that people have the basic capacity for empathy. When they act to hurt others it's not because they don't feel empathy (except, neurotic killers - maybe), but because a whole ton of other motivations totally outweights it. I don't like it, but I have to agree with... practically everybody so far that how we view murder its primarily cultural. Especially young children have an amazing capacity to learn and adopt to their surroundings. 14 (this is not fact, but around this age) year old boys in Sparta would be sent to assasinate serfs as part of their training. If a 5 year old is told consistently that something is right by their parents they will believe it and if someone else tells them otherwise they will just reject it.

So (1) the girls would likely go with what their handlers say (2) it's very hard to change the way of thinking that gets instilled into you when you're young (3) The girls do have access to braod information about the outside world (which must include different perspectives on morality), but they are not quite at the age when you could expect deep and independent reflection leading to a change of conviction (4)
@LoC978 wrote:...I can only assume that conditioning prevents that, perhaps by
deadening certain reactions within them, or perhaps because it causes
them to see anyone not directly involved with their lives (aka anyone
who doesn't work for or with the SWA) as less than an animal.

Conditioning is essentially not much more then the learning of responses at a subconscious level.
- Pavlov did it with dogs. He made them salivate (proubably misspelled that) when they hear a bell, regardless wheather food is present.
- Proffessional runners (athleets) start their race at the sound of the pistol shot. Through countless repetition they are conditioned and their hart rate and respiration increase significantly at the sound of a pistol shot regardless of wheather they are at a race or not.
- People who suffer from trauma, say an abused child, will have conditioned responses. They may break down crying or go into fits of uncontrollable fear as a result of seeing a belt or a particular sort of expression.
- and so on.

I imagine the drug is used primarily to speed up the process and to make it far more potent. Hipnosis, implants suggestions into people's minds when they are relaxed and susceptible the drug may get people into that state.

Although, all this doesn't mean that Yu had something specific in mind.

@ElfenMagix wrote:I would believe that they are doing a good work as
police officer extremes- killing bad guys who think they are above the
law.

As Ferro said "We are the bad guys." But, yeah they mostly kill of mobsters and terrorists.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 11:22

@Nachtsider wrote:The possibility exists that Yu himself doesn't know how his universe's technology works.
Possibility nothing. He might have some vague idea, but it's clearly a plot device, and not something like a Tolkien language.

@LoC978 wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:And so do we.
that's the crux of the matter, for me. I love speculating on what the cause and effect of the tech involved might be...
The problem is that it's going to be impossible to create a clearly consistent mechanism all the way through. Even when you do get a general structure in place there will be no specific systems form some of the more blatantly impossible. This upsets the perfectionist in me. Thus I've learned to stop before I get to get to upset working on something that clearly isn't going to work out.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Sintendo on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 11:53

3klicks wrote:
yes. by volume 6, she's (chronologically)... older.

I read somewhere that the manga stated that 2 years have passed since she got her new body; making her 13 (14 by vol. 6). Now when I skim the manga I can't find it; it may have been wrong, or it's just the scanlation I'm using (or I just missed it).

I can't quite remember that well (been a long time since I've watched the anime) but I think she said something along the lines of "Two years ago, on my 11th birthday, My parents signed 17 documents..." Or something like that. By volume 1 of the manga/episode 3 of the anime, she's 13.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 17:36

@Sintendo wrote:
3klicks wrote:
yes. by volume 6, she's (chronologically)... older.

I read somewhere that the manga stated that 2 years have passed since she got her new body; making her 13 (14 by vol. 6). Now when I skim the manga I can't find it; it may have been wrong, or it's just the scanlation I'm using (or I just missed it).

I can't quite remember that well (been a long time since I've watched the anime) but I think she said something along the lines of "Two years ago, on my 11th birthday, My parents signed 17 documents..." Or something like that. By volume 1 of the manga/episode 3 of the anime, she's 13.
Rico says it at the very beginning of Episode 3 "Ragazzo", when she is walking up.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Guest on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 18:57

Bingo! Yeah, that's it, although I think it isn't there in the manga. But, anyway Rico allows us to gauge the other girls ages. Triela is proubably 1 or 2 years older. Henrietta looks 2 years younger. Claes is about Triela's age. Angelica is about the same as Rico. Ot those are my estimate anyway.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 19:29

That would be 'girl ages'...
'Cyborg ages' would be very different:

Angie would be the oldest...
Rico and Henrietta about the same at 2 years since they came together.
Claes would be one of the youngest since Rico was around when Rabello was 'interviewed'.
Triela might be the second cyborg after Angie, but that would be a wild guess.

Petrushka would be the oldest girl but the youngest cyborg. What a freaking paradox!

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 21:08

Personally, I like the idea that the cyborgs are all much older (mentally and emotionally) than their physical appearances suggest, which is why I'm quite wedded to the notion that they don't physically age. Thinking that Angie is, in a sense, older than Petra just makes me smile.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Guest on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 23:16

@ElfenMagix wrote:Petrushka would be the oldest girl but the youngest cyborg. What a freaking paradox!
Laughing I can imagine the scene with Claes taking Petrushka somewhere. Petrushka acting all excited and all over the place and Claes trying to get her to behave. Although, it would be funnyer with Henrietta since she's more obviously younger.

@Nachtsider wrote:Personally, I like the idea that the cyborgs are all much older
(mentally and emotionally) than their physical appearances suggest,
which is why I'm quite wedded to the notion that they don't physically
age. Thinking that Angie is, in a sense, older than Petra just makes me
smile.
Hmm... They can be somewhat older then they look I guess. For me, if they were too mature emotionally the story would loose some of its flavour.

That would be an interesting option to explore, though (that is a number of years after current manga time). It would be a similar concept to the whole "kid vampire" idea. Only example I can think of off the top of my head is "Interview With a Vampire" and I forget the little girls name, but there are many others.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 23:27

3klicks wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:Petrushka would be the oldest girl but the youngest cyborg. What a freaking paradox!
Laughing I can imagine the scene with Claes taking Petrushka somewhere. Petrushka acting all excited and all over the place and Claes trying to get her to behave. Although, it would be funnyer with Henrietta since she's more obviously younger.
I see it with Angelica & Petrushka: The youngest child/oldest cyborg and the oldest girl/youngest cyborg. 8)

3klicks wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:Personally, I like the idea that the cyborgs are all much older
(mentally and emotionally) than their physical appearances suggest,
which is why I'm quite wedded to the notion that they don't physically
age. Thinking that Angie is, in a sense, older than Petra just makes me
smile.
Hmm... They can be somewhat older then they look I guess. For me, if they were too mature emotionally the story would loose some of its flavour.

That would be an interesting option to explore, though (that is a number of years after current manga time). It would be a similar concept to the whole "kid vampire" idea. Only example I can think of off the top of my head is "Interview With a Vampire" and I forget the little girls name, but there are many others.
Her name was Claudia. We spoke of her here a few times, thanx to me. :twisted:

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 23:32

That's always one thing that I can't help but rack my brain over. Time. How long have the girls been cyborgs? Is Triela closer to 13, or is it 17? How much longer do they have? Five years, or a decade. It just bugs the hell out of me. What I would give for some solid time lines in this series...

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 23:33

Should I post my timeline again?

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 23:58

Yeah. All I got on my theories is:
Type 1 cyborgs- 10 years, max. 5 years min.
Type 2 cyborgs- 20 years, max. 5 years min.

5 year min. If they are not killed before hand, and only they are ran ragged to the ground.
Angie being the first, was ran ragged unintentionally, to fing the levels from which she can operate. Since she is probably past 5 years as a cyborg, she's in a run-down shape.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 0:09

Here's my table as to when the various cyborgs were born and when they were selected/converted by the SWA, along with some related dates:

Angie - born 1991, selected in 2000 (first of the lot).
Triela - born 1988, selected in 2001 (second of the lot).
Rico - born 1991, selected in early 2002 (my fanfiction puts this as being at least a month before April, which is when I estimated Episode Three's Villa Gatti mission took place).
Henrietta - born 1991, selected after Rico in mid-2002.
Claes - born 1989, selected slightly after Henrietta, but also in mid-2002.
Elsa - born 1989, selected after Claes in late 2002 (newest addition to SWA at time of canon debut in Episode Nine, which I estimate took place sometime in 2003 - after the girls came home from Iraq in my story 'Battlezone', which I depicted as Elsa's first mission ever).

I haven't really any theory as to when Beatrice came, but I put her age as being somewhere akin to Henrietta and Rico's. Petra I haven't quite thought about, either.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by sdp2501 on Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 16:36

hmmmmmm............

just watched ep 4 and thought

you do not bleed like that from a slap.

seems more like beaten as in crushed a rib

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Alfisti on Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 22:14

My guess was a "tooth-meet-lip" type situation.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 22:25

How the hell would Jean have succeeded in crushing one of Rico's ribs?

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Triela on Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 23:35

@Nachtsider wrote:How the hell would Jean have succeeded in crushing one of Rico's ribs?

I think it would have taken a few wallops with a steel baseball bat. XD

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by theprodigalson on Fri 7 Jan 2011 - 1:26

My first thought was "Heh, he must have hit her with a sledgehammer then."

Though, when Rico gets hit by Flanca's speeding car in Il Teatrino ep. 13, she is in pretty bad shape and Jean tells her not to stand. We don't see her walking after that until they are back at the compound.

I remember watching a video in a High School Human Anatomy and Physiology elective course (my credibility just sky-rocketed, I know) and it introduced me to the concept that bones are designed to break at a certain threshold. This way, if you fall or are hit with enough force to damage internal organs, the bones will break thereby dispersing the force in less vital areas.

Presumably, even cyborgs could suffer internal damage without some mechanism to prevent it, and as their organs aren't necessarily any tougher than a normal human's it makes sense that their bones might still be fairly easy to break (in terms of damaging a cyborg of course, which is always far from "fairly easy").

Meh, its just food for thought. I certainly don't think Rico had a broken rib in that scene. He probably just back-handed her and, like Alfisti said, she punctured her lip on a tooth.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 7 Jan 2011 - 1:29

Rico seemed to come out a bit better in the manga when Franca drove into her, as she was up and returning fire, though she did look like she'd taken some damage.

As for her split lip, perhaps Jean clocked her with his ring fist?

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Triela on Fri 7 Jan 2011 - 1:38

Kisk... your comment made me think of this. XDDD


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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Professor Voodoo on Fri 7 Jan 2011 - 3:58

@sdp2501 wrote:seems more like beaten as in crushed a rib
I dare say that as hard-nosed as Jean is he's still wise enough not to damage his own tool. Realistically I'm sure he's not the only one who gives his cyborg an occasional smack.
@theprodigalson wrote: when Rico gets hit by Flanca's speeding car in Il Teatrino ep. 13, she is in pretty bad shape and Jean tells her not to stand.
Remember she also took a bullet straight through the neck in that encounter.
In the manga:
And in the anime:

In the manga she's later seen sleeping in the back of Jean's Benz...wearing a blanket up to her neck, but in the anime; CONTINUITY FAIL!!!

Shot in the neck and now there's no bandage?

Honestly I shouldn't have even mentioned this...it's just gonna send the Il Teatrino haters into a frenzy.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Triela on Fri 7 Jan 2011 - 5:46

The look of pain and shock on Rico's face in the manga! I forgot about that! O_O

... I have nothing to say about Il Teatrino...

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 7 Jan 2011 - 11:22

I wonder if Yu Aida realized that "hey, blowing out Rico's neck would have meant she'd have bled out and died" and changed it when he wrote the screenplay for that episode in -IL TEATRINO-. Wink

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by tremec6speed on Thu 10 Mar 2011 - 17:09

'When Jean hit Rico...'
My OC, Salvatore laughed his ass off!
Muh-m-muhahahaha!
'That reminds me,' 'tore thought, I knew I was gonna do something before I went home.'
'Hey Helen, c'mere, Jean just reminded me of somethin'!'
Helen: 'Oh no......'


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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Professor Voodoo on Thu 10 Mar 2011 - 18:03

Here's an angle I've been considering lately.

Jean gets a lot of flak for giving Rico a bloody lip in Chapter 3...


...but Raballo nailed Henrietta at least that hard in Chapter 6...

...drew blood just like Jean...


...yet we don't see any Raballo hate. Sure, Henrietta was doing something dumb that could have gotten her killed, but who's to say Rico wasn't doing something equally dangerous when Jean hit her? Honestly, I think it would take something pretty drastic to get Jean to strike his weapon so hard.

The defense rests.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by theprodigalson on Thu 10 Mar 2011 - 18:27

Well played, sir. Well played.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 10 Mar 2011 - 20:07

@Professor Voodoo wrote:Sure, Henrietta was doing something dumb that could have gotten her killed, but who's to say Rico wasn't doing something equally dangerous when Jean hit her? Honestly, I think it would take something pretty drastic to get Jean to strike his weapon so hard.
This is precisely what I've been telling the Jean-haters since 2004.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by crazyidiot78 on Thu 10 Mar 2011 - 21:04

Well Fuck me I never thought of it that way before Voodoo. Jean doesn't seem like quite the evil rat bastard now
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by tremec6speed on Thu 10 Mar 2011 - 22:09

Professor VooDoo wrote: 'Sure, Henrietta was doing something dumb that could have gotten her killed...'
Agreed. Little Henrietta was seconds away from preempting the Elsa Move.
Ker-Splat!!
Point made and a good one to be sure.
Which is why (I gotta say it) since Lauro didn't belt his cyborg, he the Man!!
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Professor Voodoo on Fri 11 Mar 2011 - 2:44

@tremec6speed wrote:Which is why (I gotta say it) since Lauro didn't belt his cyborg, he the Man!!
Yeah, I've said it before...Elsa was so starved for her handler's attention that if he ever had slapped her she would never have washed that cheek.
I think that's your best drawing yet! Terrific detail on Lauro...particularly his face & hair.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by tremec6speed on Fri 11 Mar 2011 - 17:45

Thanks Professor Voodoo!
That's funny though I can imagine Helpful Henrietta coming over to wipe Elsa's blood from the side of her face and having DeSica freak out because she considers it another 'gift'!
Guh?
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