When Jean hit Rico.....

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 22:08

LoC978 wrote:sports team? bah.
Yuppies tend not to actually raise their kids. They just go to social events hosted by other yuppie parents. The kids raise each other (unless the parents are wealthier than most other yuppies, then the kids are raised by poor immigrant employees {read:slaves}).
Fuck I hate yuppies...
Where did that come from?

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 22:49

By the way Sintendo, I think Pinocchio would have made mincemeat out of Rico. She wouldn't have stood a chance. It would be like a lamb to the slaughter.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Sun 14 Oct 2007 - 23:50

Danjo3 wrote:Where did that come from?
it was my disdain for the state of "professional sports" (which is me making an assumption as to what the "Rockies" are, I apologize if you meant the mountain range or something) and an agreement with:
Sintendo wrote:An unruly child is one who has never been spanked. Instead, they're mommy's most precious little monster and allowed to "express" themselves. Fuck you soccer moms. FUCK YOU.
-
Danjo3 wrote:By the way Sintendo, I think Pinocchio would have made mincemeat out of Rico. She wouldn't have stood a chance. It would be like a lamb to the slaughter.
Care to explain that, rather than simply speaking in generalizations? Lay out a scenario, maybe? When two professionals meet in combat, neither is ever guaranteed to win. It depends heavily on situation, terrain, armament, the element of surprise, et cetera. It's my opinion that between Pino and Rico, the one that gets the jump on the other would win. Rico couldn't stand up to Pino in a close-in struggle, and Pino could never close the distance on Rico if she was aware of his presence. At least not without getting riddled with holes.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 2:08

Note: Man, wrote this entire thing. Then lost it to a fucking upload failure... :x

LoC978 wrote:quite possible. it just doesn't feel right to me. Jean seems too cold to me for him to do something that petty. *shrug* I could be dead wrong, though.
... and even if you're right and he doesn't mean for it to serve as training, it does serve her as training. Quite well.
I understand completely, I've felt the same way many times. I'll try to break it down in a way which settles with you better. First you have realize that Jeans cold calculating exterior is just that, an exterior. Delve a bit deep and I think you'll find a man boiling over with emotion. I mean think about, Jean helped create an organization based around turning little girls into assassins. Little girls, not unlike his sister, get a short violent life, with plenty of suffering. Why, so he can have bloody, bloody revenge on the people who pissed him off.

That, and you really think he's beyond petty? He gave Rico a boys name so he could be more comfortable. That's pretty petty. Besides haven't you ever done something without understanding why. Maybe Jean gets angry with Rico with out realize why.

LoC978 wrote:no, the fact that the military doesn't use physical punishment (outside of specops) anymore is bullshit. The other handlers don't have the heart to beat their wards, and who can blame them? I wouldn't either.
Wait I'm confused, are you say their still beating up kids at basic. Or that they should? If it's the former I can say with certainty that they don't hit trainees in the Air Force any more. Well at least not till you get to MTI training...

LoC978 wrote:there is one excuse: he doesn't(didn't?) see her as what she is, he saw her as what she was 'designed' to be: a weapon.
Rico is designed to be a weapon, I wont argue that. However that isn't to say Rico is only a weapon. She is still a little girl. I can understand her getting banged up in training, especially when it's hand to hand. Considering the girls learn lessons of life, and death I can understand serious punishments when the screw up during training. Squats in the mud, lots of push ups, extra duties, that kind of thing. That's not hitting a girl so hard that she starts bleeding.

LoC does have a good point though. It is an imperfect world, especially inside the SWA. Rico could have had done much worse then Jean, see Lauro. Jean at the very least realizes he has to keep Rico happy, and though he maybe conflicted about he does care about her. Not to mention he appears to show the ability to mature in his relationship with Rico.

Finally slapping like, the kind parents use occasionally to discipline their children. Yeah no problems with that. Though it does seem kinda weird to me. That, and one would think that conditioning would render the need for that kind of punishment more or less useless.

Sintendo wrote:*Rocks back and forth in a corner*

J-J-J-Jean isn't a robot... I-I-I proved it! heheheheheheheheheh! Heh... I proved it months before volume 6 came out! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!

*runs away*
Wait, what did we do to break Sintendo?!

Sintendo wrote:Anyways, if there's one positive (and I use the term loosely) that came out of Jean's child abusing hands, it's that Rico is probably the baddest of the bunch. Hell, I have no doubt in my mind that Pinocchio would have been slaughtered if he went aginst Rico instead of Triela.
LoC978 wrote:the first time, too. there would've been no "Freeze! Don't move, Padania!" there would've been two shots with no warnings, and two bodies hitting the floor... and I don't think Jean would've fallen for what Hillshire did. He probably would've told Franca to drop the pistol, then kicked her in the back of the knee, stomped her into the ground, and called in Rico to frisk her for weapons, tie her hands, and beat her on general principle.
-brutality gets shit done.
Until we see Triela, and Rico duke it out there's not way to be sure. However I'm not so certain. Like Triela, I don't think Rico has ever had to really develop her hand to had skills. Mostly Rico's hand to hand seems to be beating people to get them to squeal.

As for the first time, if it had been Rico they might not have been able to find Pino. You have to remember that it was at least in part due to Triela ability to operate independently that they found him. Not to mention it was Triela's gun-ho nature that got them to go in. When she finally did stumble upon the Franco, and Pino she probably though: Well I've got the drop on them. So I can capture them, and get a whole ton of intel. If they try to resist I'll drop them like all the other terrorists I've faced. It just happens that these two are a lot better then the shit she's been up against.

Now if Jean hadn't said anything about intel, Rico probably would have just dropped both of them then and there. He might have said that though. Hilshire would have been able to trust Triela to make that kind of decision. Jean wouldn't be able to do that. Triela's greatest strength is her adaptability. Besides in volume six, who do you see running the room clearing exercise. Triela, not Rico, or even other handlers...

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 2:28

LoC978 wrote:... and I don't think Jean would've fallen for what Hillshire did. He probably would've told Franca to drop the pistol, then kicked her in the back of the knee, stomped her into the ground, and called in Rico to frisk her for weapons, tie her hands, and beat her on general principle.

The outcome of Hillshire's encounter with Franca always struck me as being quite inexplicable, considering every good counter-terrorist is supposed to know the following:

Herr Starr wrote:Shoot the women first. Any female terrorist operative has had to work at least ten times as hard as her male counterparts to be accepted in their organization. She will be more able, will react quicker, and will generally be much more dangerous. Incapacitate her first.

In my fanfiction, Hillshire was supposed to be ex-GSG9 along with the time he spent with Interpol. Wonder if I'll have to retcon this as well...

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by emperor on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 3:35

Hillshire was supposed to be ex-GSG9 along with the time he spent with Interpol.

Great Hilshire!

Yu Ida should use this type be real in GSG.

Just my thought.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 8:43

LoC978 wrote:
Care to explain that, rather than simply speaking in generalizations?
Of all the girls, Treila has the highest skill level. She has Agency and special Opís training. As Wileama said, in vol.6, sheís training Rico. If Rico had gone up against someone like Pinocchio, who by the way was trained by a former American CIA agent, I think she would have gotten her ass handed to her on a platter. She might be an excellent sniper and have a talent for beating the crap out people who arenít fighting back, but when it comes to CQC, sheís got nothing on the Princess.


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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 12:20

Wileama wrote:Wait I'm confused, are you say their still beating up kids at basic. Or that they should? If it's the former I can say with certainty that they don't hit trainees in the Air Force any more. Well at least not till you get to MTI training...
the latter. I've served with many people who should never have been allowed to pass through basic. Unfortunately, they had all four limbs and a good set of lungs... and that's all it takes anymore.
Wileama wrote:However that isn't to say Rico is only a weapon. She is still a little girl.
agreed. My point is that Jean refused to allow himself to admit that, at least early on.
Wileama wrote:Until we see Triela, and Rico duke it out there's not way to be sure. However I'm not so certain. Like Triela, I don't think Rico has ever had to really develop her hand to had skills. Mostly Rico's hand to hand seems to be beating people to get them to squeal.
Danjo3 wrote:Of all the girls, Treila has the highest skill level. She has Agency and special Opís training. As Wileama said, in vol.6, sheís training Rico. If Rico had gone up against someone like Pinocchio, who by the way was trained by a former American CIA agent, I think she would have gotten her ass handed to her on a platter. She might be an excellent sniper and have a talent for beating the crap out people who arenít fighting back, but when I comes to CQC, sheís got nothing on the Princess.
already addressed this. this is not dragon ball z, there's no ZOMG! HIGH POWER(skill) LEVEL=WIN! I do not think Rico is a more skilled combatant than Triela. She's more brutal, and doesn't carry rifles(or shotguns) into buildings. Pistol=quicker in close quarters.
I wrote:When two professionals meet in combat, neither is ever guaranteed to win. It depends heavily on situation, terrain, armament, the element of surprise, et cetera. It's my opinion that between Pino and Rico, the one that gets the jump on the other would win. Rico couldn't stand up to Pino in a close-in struggle, and Pino could never close the distance on Rico if she was aware of his presence. At least not without getting riddled with holes.


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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 12:30

Wileama wrote:As for the first time, if it had been Rico they might not have been able to find Pino. You have to remember that it was at least in part due to Triela ability to operate independently that they found him. Not to mention it was Triela's gun-ho nature that got them to go in. When she finally did stumble upon the Franco, and Pino she probably though: Well I've got the drop on them. So I can capture them, and get a whole ton of intel. If they try to resist I'll drop them like all the other terrorists I've faced. It just happens that these two are a lot better then the shit she's been up against.

Now if Jean hadn't said anything about intel, Rico probably would have just dropped both of them then and there. He might have said that though. Hilshire would have been able to trust Triela to make that kind of decision. Jean wouldn't be able to do that. Triela's greatest strength is her adaptability. Besides in volume six, who do you see running the room clearing exercise. Triela, not Rico, or even other handlers...
I agree completely with that. I was just inserting Jean and Rico into Hillshire and Triela's situation, ignoring the lead-up. It never would've happened. Nevertheless, I still say Rico would stand a better chance against Pinnochio in any situation where she got the drop on him. However, Triela has a far better chance than Rico when he gets the drop on her.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 13:38

Danjo3 wrote:
LoC978 wrote:
Care to explain that, rather than simply speaking in generalizations?
Of all the girls, Treila has the highest skill level. She has Agency and special Opís training. As Wileama said, in vol.6, sheís training Rico. If Rico had gone up against someone like Pinocchio, who by the way was trained by a former American CIA agent, I think she would have gotten her ass handed to her on a platter. She might be an excellent sniper and have a talent for beating the crap out people who arenít fighting back, but when I comes to CQC, sheís got nothing on the Princess.
If you were talking about CIA Agents of old Viet Nam Era, I would agree. These New generations of CIA Agents aren't worth the crap they get in training, then spend the next 4 years flying desks and computer terminal jockeying. They get too slow, too fat, and too out of shape to be benefical on the field. They have to rely on military specail ops to do the dirty work for them and even then... they are not the phychos they used to be.

But yes, Rico would have had her tush put on a silver platter with an apple stuffed in it.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 14:05

ElfenMagix wrote:If you were talking about CIA Agents of old Viet Nam Era, I would agree. These New generations of CIA Agents aren't worth the crap they get in training, then spend the next 4 years flying desks and computer terminal jockeying. They get too slow, too fat, and too out of shape to be benefical on the field. They have to rely on military specail ops to do the dirty work for them and even then... they are not the phychos they used to be.
yeah, he was old school:
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ElfenMagix wrote:But yes, Rico would have had her tush put on a silver platter with an apple stuffed in it.
In close quarters, yes. At range... I'm sorry, Pino, but this is an unrealistic expectation. Only works if you can shrug off bullets, human.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 14:27

ElfenMagix wrote:If you were talking about CIA Agents of old Viet Nam Era, I would agree. These New generations of CIA Agents aren't worth the crap they get in training, then spend the next 4 years flying desks and computer terminal jockeying. They get too slow, too fat, and too out of shape to be benefical on the field. They have to rely on military specail ops to do the dirty work for them and even then... they are not the phychos they used to be.

I'll second that notion. The way Dave Tyson performed at Qala-i-Jangi in 2001 is something one can't forget in a hurry.

Truth be told, no one can undeniably say that Pino's mentor John was ex-CIA until some proper confirmation surfaces to back this notion up.

ElfenMagix wrote:She might be an excellent sniper and have a talent for beating the crap out people who arenít fighting back, but when I comes to CQC, sheís got nothing on the Princess.

Personally, I think CQB would not even come into play if Rico and Pino were to go head-to-head - the likelihood is that she would not permit him to come near enough for melee combat. Rico is blindingly fast - her CZ-75 would almost certainly clear that holster before Pino could even draw his knife or get in close, and then we'd see what would become of his probably empty boast about closing a thirty-foot gap by twenty-nine feet.

Calling Triela 'the Princess' and 'Snow White' are neat. My preference, however, is 'Lady Snowblood'.


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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 14:30

Nachtsider wrote:Truth be told, no one can undeniably say that Pino's mentor John was ex-CIA until some proper confirmation surfaces to back this notion up.
This is the only evidence we have. All we really know is that he claimed to be CIA.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 14:31

Precisely. It's mighty good fanfic material, though.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 15:18

LoC978 wrote:
Wileama wrote:Wait I'm confused, are you say their still beating up kids at basic. Or that they should? If it's the former I can say with certainty that they don't hit trainees in the Air Force any more. Well at least not till you get to MTI training...
the latter. I've served with many people who should never have been allowed to pass through basic. Unfortunately, they had all four limbs and a good set of lungs... and that's all it takes anymore.
I know what you mean. I end up going to fit flight (I hate push ups...) with a guy who would break down crying at the slightest sign of hardship. Our lead instructor tried everything he could to get him kicked the fuck out. He couldn't, and I'm seriously glad that he's only an accountant. Still from what I've saw while I was at Ft. Eustis the army is even more desperate for warm bodies. When was the last time the Army managed to meet it's recruitment goal? I don't think you need to hit people to weed them out though. That's just a more stringent system.

LoC978 wrote:
Wileama wrote:However that isn't to say Rico is only a weapon. She is still a little girl.
agreed. My point is that Jean refused to allow himself to admit that, at least early on.
I understand that Jean believes that. My point was simply that it doesn't make a good excuse. It makes a good explanation, but those are two very different things though.

LoC978 wrote:already addressed this. this is not dragon ball z, there's no ZOMG! HIGH POWER(skill) LEVEL=WIN! I do not think Rico is a more skilled combatant than Triela. She's more brutal, and doesn't carry rifles(or shotguns) into buildings. Pistol=quicker in close quarters.
When two professionals meet in combat, neither is ever guaranteed to win. It depends heavily on situation, terrain, armament, the element of surprise, et cetera. It's my opinion that between Pino and Rico, the one that gets the jump on the other would win. Rico couldn't stand up to Pino in a close-in struggle, and Pino could never close the distance on Rico if she was aware of his presence. At least not without getting riddled with holes.
Ah, I see. I though you where trying to say that Rico is over all a better fighter. You are right, the how is just as important as who. However in that case I think your missing two big things. First is that Pino seems like a smart guy, in terms of combat. He comes off like he knows how to play up his strengths, while taking advantage of his opponents weaknesses. Rico's doesn't have that kind of understanding of tatics if you ask me. Hell I'm not sure any of the girls really do. They been so spoiled by weak enemies that they haven't had to develop that level of tactical thinking.

Second, Rico isn't special in being able to blow away Pino if she gets the drop on him. I think most of the girls could. When you get a drop on some one with a gun, it's pretty much game over. I think that's the real struggle in combat, getting the drop on some one else. The only reason Triela didn't blow Pino away in there first meeting was that she under estimated him, and maybe over estimated herself. Rico's only real advantage is putting holes in Pino is that she tends to stay at range due to her role as sniper. Making it that much harder for Pino to get in close like he needs.

**EDIT**
Page two?! Where the hell did this come from!

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 15:24

Wileama wrote:I don't think you need to hit people to weed them out though.
if they're ever going to see combat... I beg to differ.
Wileama wrote:The only reason Triela didn't blow Pino away in there first meeting was that she under estimated him, and maybe over estimated herself. Rico's only real advantage is putting holes in Pino is that she tends to stay at range due to her role as sniper. Making it that much harder for Pino to get in close like he needs.
The way I see it, Rico's main advantage (and disadvantage, if you're talking CQC) is that she doesn't do any estimating (or hesitating). She just kills. As quickly and brutally as possible.


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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 15:26

Wileama wrote:**EDIT**
Page two?! Where the hell did this come from!
I feel your pain... the 'skip to the end when opening a page' option is a lot less obvious on this forum... and doesn't always work...
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 15:53

LoC978 wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:Truth be told, no one can undeniably say that Pino's mentor John was ex-CIA until some proper confirmation surfaces to back this notion up.
This is the only evidence we have. All we really know is that he claimed to be CIA.
The biggest trick in the book is if you want to claim to be a person of power and want position and power elsewhere, claim yourself to be disgruntled CIA or Ex-CIA. That will get you in at least for the interim. The problem you will have is proving your worth to whomever you just allied yourself to be with. OK- so you cheat, lie, and kill your way to the top to do this... who hasn't in this line of work?
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 16:09

LoC978 wrote:If they're ever going to see combat... I beg to differ.
Fair enough. I'll admit that I haven't seen combat yet, and not the least bit heart broken over it. In that regard I really am no better then a lay man. It's just my opinion.

ElfenMagix wrote:If you were talking about CIA Agents of old Viet Nam Era, I would agree. These New generations of CIA Agents aren't worth the crap they get in training, then spend the next 4 years flying desks and computer terminal jockeying. They get too slow, too fat, and too out of shape to be benefical on the field. They have to rely on military specail ops to do the dirty work for them and even then... they are not the phychos they used to be.
Okay I'll give you that the CIA has problem gotten worse at wet work kind of stuff since the end of the cold war. The whole US intelligence system seems to have gotten away form risky human intel in favor of safer remote sensing, and signal intel. Still, the fuck do you know about current practices over at Langley? You talk like you take your coffee break with these guys. I'm willing to bet a good number of CIA agents never did any wet work, even during the height of the cold war. A lot of the CIA's work is about interpreting the intel they get. You don't need an agency full of James Bonds, you need your Jack Ryans too. Who happen to sit behind a a desk. For those who are eventually going to hit field, I'm willing to bet their training never really ends. Basic training is just that, basic. You don't take raw recruits and instantly turn them into highly skilled operatives. It takes time, more training, and experience. Everyone has to be green at one point.

Nachtsider wrote:I'll second that notion. The way Dave Tyson performed at Qala-i-Jangi in 2001 is something one can't forget in a hurry.
\\reads the INTERNET

Oh, I see. Well sounds like they fucked up, and paid the price for it. That's part of the thing with the intelligence service though. Your way more likely to hear about their fuck ups, then the operations that go perfectly. Your going to have stupid fucks in an organization, especially the larger ones.

Nachtsider wrote:Personally, I think CQB would not even come into play if Rico and Pino were to go head-to-head - the likelihood is that she would not permit him to come near enough for melee combat. Rico is blindingly fast - her CZ-75 would almost certainly clear that holster before Pino could even draw his knife or get in close, and then we'd see what would become of his probably empty boast about closing a thirty-foot gap by twenty-nine feet.

Pino was talking about a regular person, not a cyborg. He was probably hoping to take advantage of some terrain while closing those thirty feet to. Like he did with Triela, and long shotgun. Or the time he put a blade in her finger guard. There probably is a bit of exaggeration over the 30 feet. However that isn't to say he couldn't do it. With a regular person in the right kind of space, yeah he could manage it. With a Cyborg closing that distance is going to be much harder. A lot of it will depend on the where, and how. Still Pino was the kind of character where it was better not to risk it.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 16:21

LoC978 wrote:The way I see it, Rico's main advantage (and disadvantage, if you're talking CQC) is that she doesn't do any estimating (or hesitating). She just kills. As quickly and brutally as possible.
That is particularly true of Rico. However I think most of the girls operate the same way, they just kill. Except when they been told not to, and even then they still might. Rico is just that much more brutal when told to be then the rest. Triela is the only one out of the entire group that actually seems to think.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 16:28

Wileama wrote:Triela is the only one out of the entire group that actually seems to think.
actually, I'd say Rico and Henrietta are the only two that don't think much in combat. it's just that Angelica's thoughts are along the wrong lines: "how can I impress Marco with this?"
Triela's problem in thinking is her lack of experience. Example: it's much easier to subdue and capture one person than two. When she first encountered Pino and Franco, If she'd been more experienced, she'd have shot Franco (the one with a gun), and then told Pino to freeze.
Rico and 'Etta just go on animal instinct, for the most part. Imagine P-90 girl walking in on Franco and Pino. Talk about riddled with holes...
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 13:28

Wileama wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:If you were talking about CIA Agents of old Viet Nam Era, I would agree. These New generations of CIA Agents aren't worth the crap they get in training, then spend the next 4 years flying desks and computer terminal jockeying. They get too slow, too fat, and too out of shape to be benefical on the field. They have to rely on military specail ops to do the dirty work for them and even then... they are not the phychos they used to be.
Okay I'll give you that the CIA has problem gotten worse at wet work kind of stuff since the end of the cold war. The whole US intelligence system seems to have gotten away form risky human intel in favor of safer remote sensing, and signal intel. Still, the fuck do you know about current practices over at Langley? You talk like you take your coffee break with these guys. I'm willing to bet a good number of CIA agents never did any wet work, even during the height of the cold war. A lot of the CIA's work is about interpreting the intel they get. You don't need an agency full of James Bonds, you need your Jack Ryans too. Who happen to sit behind a a desk. For those who are eventually going to hit field, I'm willing to bet their training never really ends. Basic training is just that, basic. You don't take raw recruits and instantly turn them into highly skilled operatives. It takes time, more training, and experience. Everyone has to be green at one point.
If there were to make a movie about me, it would have to be "I Was A Teenage Computer Whiz Kid For The CIA."
But really, Though you are right, and the agency has a lot of set back with double agents in the 80's. That probably left a very bad taste in everyone's mouths ever since, and are probably not interest in such work ethics as they once had.
The problem with Interpretation is that it depends on who is doing the interpreation. What one would consider as a threat and throw onto the chief's desk, another would throw into the trash.
It is an evolution of one's abilities that makes them go from one level of intellegence work to another. It is the same with poilce and miliary work; basic training is the levelled playing feild where everyone starts. Where they go with it is on them. Unfortunately, most colleges teach their students that it is better to be a desk jockey and fly a computer terminal as a carreer than it is to take interest in field work.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 13:34

LoC978 wrote:
Wileama wrote:Triela is the only one out of the entire group that actually seems to think.
actually, I'd say Rico and Henrietta are the only two that don't think much in combat. it's just that Angelica's thoughts are along the wrong lines: "how can I impress Marco with this?"
Triela's problem in thinking is her lack of experience. Example: it's much easier to subdue and capture one person than two. When she first encountered Pino and Franco, If she'd been more experienced, she'd have shot Franco (the one with a gun), and then told Pino to freeze.
Rico and 'Etta just go on animal instinct, for the most part. Imagine P-90 girl walking in on Franco and Pino. Talk about riddled with holes...
I think that all the cyborgs think in terms of that,"How can I impress my handler..." adding, "...to make happy of my work."
Yes, Triela is the thinker of the group, as so it Claes. In the 12th Episode, when she killed her room's guard, she could have sat down and did nothing. Instead, she took action on her own.

The problem I see with the Triela/Pino/Franco scenero, I think Hillshire wanted them alive for questioning, and not a preemptive strike in eliminating them. That would have saved a lot of headaches, and Triela's rebuild later on in Vol.5/6

Then again, I notice that Triela/Hillshire get sent out on 'Bring'em Back Alive' missions more than the others, though Triela does have a high body count. I think this is because of Hillshire's work experience with EuroPol; where he had to 'Bring'em Back Alive.'
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 13:44

ElfenMagix wrote:If there were to make a movie about me, it would have to be "I Was A Teenage Computer Whiz Kid For The CIA."
Good Will Hunting? Great movie.
ElfenMagix wrote:The problem I see with the Triela/Pino/Franco scenero, I think Hillshire wanted them alive for questioning, and not a preemptive strike in eliminating them. That would have saved a lot of headaches, and Triela's rebuild later on in Vol.5/6

Then again, I notice that Triela/Hillshire get sent out on 'Bring'em Back Alive' missions more than the others, though Triela does have a high body count. I think this is because of Hillshire's work experience with EuroPol; where he had to 'Bring'em Back Alive.'
excellent point. I keep getting tunnel vision on the word 'assassin' ... I guess 'agent' or 'operative' is a better word for the girls.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 17:12

LoC978 wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:If there were to make a movie about me, it would have to be "I Was A Teenage Computer Whiz Kid For The CIA."
Good Will Hunting? Great movie.
Heard of it, never saw it...

LoC978 wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:The problem I see with the Triela/Pino/Franco scenero, I think Hillshire wanted them alive for questioning, and not a preemptive strike in eliminating them. That would have saved a lot of headaches, and Triela's rebuild later on in Vol.5/6

Then again, I notice that Triela/Hillshire get sent out on 'Bring'em Back Alive' missions more than the others, though Triela does have a high body count. I think this is because of Hillshire's work experience with EuroPol; where he had to 'Bring'em Back Alive.'
excellent point. I keep getting tunnel vision on the word 'assassin' ... I guess 'agent' or 'operative' is a better word for the girls.
I get confused too, then I read it 4 more times and them a pattern emerges.
Something my 4th grade teacher said to me- 'If you want to remember something- do it at least 3 times... Then you'll remember it.'
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Guest on Fri 9 Nov 2007 - 0:22

Wow, I wanted to reply to almost every post in this topic. I joined this forum just so I could do that. So here it goes, I'll try to keep it short and not repeat too much.

- The only reason why Jean would want to hit Rico because she failed at something, because he got angry with her. The reason he allowed himself to do it is well covered in the previous posts, except the comment about toughtening her up (this kid can get her arm shot up and not even flinch, what's a couple of smacks on the face gonna do?). He wouldn't hit her for any other reason alone no matter how much she stood there and, for example, reminded him of his pain.

- From the very begging I was curious about Jean. Maybe I'm too much of a positivist, but I think that apperently emotionless, brutal, ear cutting, etc. people always have some pretty bad shit in their past to make them that way. Besides anger and agony (that was mentioned in other posts) I think guilt is also very important. Jean is a guy weight down with it. In vol. 6 he mantions that it's his fault that Jean "is this way" when he talks to his 'sister'. He proubably feels guilty about the deaths and his fiancey's brother didn't help by accusing him of doing nothing.

- As to why he suddenly warms up in vol 6, my theory is that:
1.) He does appreciate Rico, even if it is as a fine tool. (In vol. 4, as the guy who Rico is currently beating the hell out of falls into the room and cries for help, Jean comments "It's not that I don't enjoy my job..." He sure enjoys watching her send people half way to hell and back again.) She also seems to have made plenty of progress since the "Boy" chapter (I think thats vol. 1) when Jean said: "She can't do anything right by herself."
2.) Sicily is a special place for both brothers. When they go there on vacation they loose their welfare-agency/revenge attitudes. Guseppe changed when he got there shedding some of the constraints and trying to be 'normal'. Jean put a lot more constraints on himself so the change is far more pronounced. This is his 'true nature' or what he was like before.

- Overall beside scolding her Jean takes care of Rico and certainly doesn't derive pleasure from beating her. His relationship with her is proubably the second "healthiest" for both him and Rico, after Hilshire and Triela's.

- Rico or Triela, against Pino. That's alredy covered; I side with the people who say it all depends on the scenario. There is somehting pure and clean about her fighing: on one side its instinctive without the necessity for reflection and on the other it is not bound by emotion like henriettas. She doesn't see things as cruel or brutal, she simply does what she is told in the simplest way possible. brilliant. Smashing someones face into a window with a preconceived notion of it being bad, or brutal, or the best way to inflict harm is completely different.

- Is it just me or does Rico seem like the most normal of the girls despite her conditioning. She is curious, makes card houses, jums on beds, walks along the side guards of a road, and so on. Stuff you would expect a 13 year old girl to do. She has her views on life; the go for it spirit and an appreciation of chances and opportunities (Her talk with Fillipo - the accountant/artist vol. 2). She lies to Jean about meeting the boy in vol 1. She is not emotionless (even if she executes her orders without emotion). She remembes having a misformed body and being abandoned by her parents; there is more to her than just the personality we see most of the time.

- This is actually the thing which makes her stand out the most. She seems to be the only one of the girls who has a motive for her actions which is personal and not drug-related. She is overjoyed wiht having a body and afraid of loosing it: something she wants for herself. In vol. 6, after shooting the second guy in the boat she smiles right before falling into the water. At first I wasn't sure what to make of that, but she must have smiled because she did her job well and that means that she would not be considered "useless" (and thus could live on with her body).

Sorry for the hudge post... I just couldn't resist.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 9 Nov 2007 - 0:40

Excellent observations, Klicks. These traits of Rico's are precisely why I like Rico a lot, and have the tendency to have my author-created cyborgs possess purposes for their allegiance other than their conditioning.

One wee gripe, though - isn't Rico eleven?
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Fri 9 Nov 2007 - 1:28

Nachtsider wrote:One wee gripe, though - isn't Rico eleven?
at the time of her reconstruction, yes. by volume 6, she's (chronologically)... older. Whether she's physically older is still up in the air.
klicks' post
My only gripe is about the hitting. No matter a person's cybernetically enhanced toughness and conditioned pain tolerance, blunt force trauma is still a shock to anyone who is unused to it (firsthand experience. I'm used to it, now). To go back to my Jean=sensei thing... one reason a martial arts trainer hits his students is so that being hit, whether they're on their guard or not, is commonplace to them. I'd venture to guess that Rico is tougher than any of the other girls, possibly sans Triela (Rico gets hit more often, and thus could most likely take a hard blow with much less effect... but I'd say Triela is still better trained, hand-to-hand. Much like the difference between a barroom brawler and someone trained in a modern, generic Kung-Fu dojo).

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Fri 9 Nov 2007 - 6:58

LoC978 wrote: To go back to my Jean=sensei thing... one reason a martial arts trainer hits his students is so that being hit, whether they're on their guard or not, is commonplace to them.
I believe someone mentioned it earlier, but this also reminds me of Kato from the Pink Panther.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Guest on Fri 9 Nov 2007 - 10:30

yes. by volume 6, she's (chronologically)... older.

I read somewhere that the manga stated that 2 years have passed since she got her new body; making her 13 (14 by vol. 6). Now when I skim the manga I can't find it; it may have been wrong, or it's just the scanlation I'm using (or I just missed it).

Whether she's physically older is still up in the air.

It sure looks like it. After reading vol. 6 I went back to vol. 1 and I was really surprised by how much younger the girls looked. (This may be just Yu improving gradually in his artwork or changing his style.)

one reason a martial arts trainer hits his students is so that being
hit, whether they're on their guard or not, is commonplace to them.

I see your point there. Getting shot in a combat situation is different than getting hit out of nowhere. Both the series and the manga mention that the cyborgs are vulnerable when they aren't concentrating (although this may be just 'Etta that has a tendancy to drift off). That said, I still seriously doubt that this was actually something Jean thought about. If he did he would make roughing her up a routine, and there is not evidence that he does. And Rico also says that Jean got angry at her (or scolded her depending on transl.); If it was just a calculated training exercise there would be little emotion involved.

I'd say Triela is still better trained, hand-to-hand.

No argument here. Triele is definitely a close range specialits in general; she uses a shotgun, with a bayonet, and her battles are all up close and personal. (btw. does anyone know wheather she uses buckshot or solid slugs? Seems to be slugs....but no evidence. Still better for close range since it's a smooth bore weapon.)

The main reason I wouldn't give Triela an unquestioned upper hand is becuse at medium range (with cover available) how fast you can draw your gun, while still maintaining control, becomes real important. Triela didn't manage to draw her Sig fast enough in her first fight with Pino. Rico is seen several times in a "quickdraw" situation, both fast and accurate.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 9 Nov 2007 - 11:31

3klicks wrote:It sure looks like it. After reading vol. 6 I went back to vol. 1 and I was really surprised by how much younger the girls looked. (This may be just Yu improving gradually in his artwork or changing his style.)

I think I'm still quite firmly stuck on the idea of the cyborgs having being mutilated into permanent children. Still waiting for official, unequivocal confirmation here, though - and prepared to retcon my fanfiction if necessary.

Bringing up the topic of Yu's style - is it certain that he actually draws all his stories? I know he definitely did so for Volume One of the manga, but can't help but feel that the opposite might be the case for subsequent installments - everything post-Volume One looks rather different (to my eyes, at least).
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by rusty-spring on Fri 9 Nov 2007 - 11:42

Yeah, manga artists are known to draw "templates" that they then give to their staff (once they get popular enough to be able to HIRE a staff Razz) who then use that template draw in the artists style.

Sometimes artists just draw the storyboards and such, then let their illustrators take it from there.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 9 Nov 2007 - 22:24

LoC978 wrote:To go back to my Jean=sensei thing... one reason a martial arts trainer hits his students is so that being hit, whether they're on their guard or not, is commonplace to them. I'd venture to guess that Rico is tougher than any of the other girls, possibly sans Triela (Rico gets hit more often, and thus could most likely take a hard blow with much less effect... but I'd say Triela is still better trained, hand-to-hand. Much like the difference between a barroom brawler and someone trained in a modern, generic Kung-Fu dojo).
Like you said, Loc, the reason why a sensei hits a student to to train the student's body to take a hit as well as give it. It is very rare to have a 1 punch / 2 second fight (where one punch is used and the oppponant goes down out cold- have not had one of those in years!). As one progresses through the ranks, the hits get harder, even past the point where such impact can break several boards, it does the body little harm. It is a form of 'Conditioning'.

It is something to see two guys fight where you know each blow could kill, yet they keep on going with the punches. An old arguement my friends used to have is "Who would win in a fight (during their prime): Bruce Lee or Mohammed Ali?" Thats is a real nueron twister, considering the amount of thraining those two underwent.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 10 Nov 2007 - 2:51

Nachtsider wrote:Bringing up the topic of Yu's style - is it certain that he actually draws all his stories? I know he definitely did so for Volume One of the manga, but can't help but feel that the opposite might be the case for subsequent installments - everything post-Volume One looks rather different (to my eyes, at least).
If you notice, a lot of different people are given art credits in the mangas, so I tend to go with rusty:
rusty-spring wrote:Sometimes artists just draw the storyboards and such, then let their illustrators take it from there.
But there's no doubt Adia has the final say, so if the girls appear to be growing up, it's because he wants it that way.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Guest on Sat 10 Nov 2007 - 12:43

I haven't thought of that; but the credits do mention a whole bunch of people.

I always saw manga-artists as lone wolves, who don't get much out of it even if they make it big (because the middle men end up getting most of the cash for their work).

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Mon 12 Nov 2007 - 7:51

3klicks wrote:3klicks post.
I like you.

Anyway you make a good point about Rico being the most normal child. I think it was something I saw, and understood on a gut level, but never really processed on a thinking level. She does have a real sweet innocence about her. Right down to when she's talking about boys, while cleaning her gun. God GSG is so good at what it does.

I don't know that Rico has the healthiest relationship with her handler. It's true Jean is keen to keeping Rico's moral up. Rico is surprisingly well adjusted to her situation. So yeah in a way it's healthy. In that they've both have methods of coping with their situation. Honestly I have trouble labeling a relationship where one considers the other an object, healthy. I don't know that I can articulate why I think it's unhealthy. In part, because it's a gut feeling. In part, because I hate english.

Anyway yeah I suppose her previous life, with a little help from Jean, has instilled at want to remain useful. However you have to realize that with out her conditioning she still wouldn't be able to do this. All the evidence I have ever seen points to murdering being terribly damaging on the human psyche. Conditioning is a short of insulating blanket that protects the girls from that damage. So she may have motivations beyond just conditioning. Without it though, she still wouldn't make a good assassin.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Guest on Mon 12 Nov 2007 - 12:46

Wileama wrote:God GSG is so good at what it does.
Yeah, it's great. Smile

Wileama wrote:I don't know that Rico has the healthiest relationship with her handler.
I don't really think it's healthy. It's just that the clear rules take off a lot of strain that we see in the other fratellos. Jean is cold but reasonable; Rico knows what to expect and she's taken care of.

I didn't really do justice to Hilshire and Henrietta. Raballo is dead. Marco gave up on Angelica and is too unstable in his emotions. Guseppe puts pressure on Henrietta through his selfishness; he gives her lots of presents and attention which inspires her to want to get close to him, but then he denies her that true closeness. So Rico/Jean would proubably be the second healthiest (among the fratellos).

Hilshire is the only handler who is actually capable at the "handling" part of his job. He gives Triela a stable and steady support and offers her comfort whenever he thinks she needs it, but never imposes anything on her, keeping a respectful distance.

Wileama wrote:However you have to realize that with out her conditioning she still wouldn't be able to do this.
I agree with this. It's just that some people tend to see Rico as a robot because she has the most conditioning. By bringing up that she lied to Jean and had a motive in adittion to her conditioning I was trying ot show that she is not.

Wileama wrote:murdering being terribly damaging on the human psyche.
Sometimes, especially after reading some stuff or seeing it on TV, I wonder to what extent our aversion to killing and it's effect on our psyche is learned through culture and to what extent it is something biological.

I wonder if the girls would feel anything if their memories were wiped without the conditioning and they were simply brought up in an enviournment in which killing was normal.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Mon 12 Nov 2007 - 16:51

I completely understand what your saying in terms of healthy relationship. I agree they probably are one of the most well adjusted Fratellos, healthy even. It just feels wrong to say when Jean tends to treat Rico like a thing. I feel like that aught to count for something. I suppose it's easier to understand when the other Frattellos are taken into consideration. Only Hilshire, and Triela actually manage something approaching normal. It seems with everyone else you have to measure how little their relationship is fucked up.

Oh okay, I get what your trying to say about the conditioning now. I thought you where trying to say if she didn't need the conditioning to do her job. I completely agree that Rico is no robot. Despite who readily she accepts what ever Jean says.

3klicks wrote: Sometimes, especially after reading some stuff or seeing it on TV, I wonder to what extent our aversion to killing and it's effect on our psyche is learned through culture and to what extent it is something biological.

I wonder if the girls would feel anything if their memories were wiped without the conditioning and they were simply brought up in an enviournment in which killing was normal.
Man, that's a really good question. I think it's possible for a human being to grow accustom to almost anything. Granted there are some exceptions, and I would also imagine that the younger you are the easier that adjustment is. So if you where born into a world where murder, and death are the norm. I think you would adopt those feelings. Now I think that would have an impact on who you are as a person. To live in a violent world like that I think you are going to become more violent. I don't think Henrietta, or any of the girls, would be quite so bubbly, and innocent.

Now that I've decided that, I think I have my answer to you first question. As much as I hate to admit it, our aversion, though hypocritical at times, to killing is probably more of a cultural issue then anything else. However I think that aversion is the natural inclination of human societies. Which is to say that cultures that discourage kill are stronger cultures then ones that do kill. In a species it's not really everyone for themselves. It's everyone for themselves, and the group. Culture helps push it towards the group. It's not really good for the group when you kill one another.

So final verdict, aversion to killing is mostly a cultural issue. However this cultural issue is in part driven by biology. That's where I sit for at least the next thirty to fourty seconds Razz

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Mon 12 Nov 2007 - 17:28

Wileama wrote:It just feels wrong to say when Jean tends to treat Rico like a thing. I feel like that aught to count for something.
Much the same as how it feels wrong when we think of any child soldier or child assassin. Jean's viewpoints and treatment of Rico should take a back seat when compared to that, I think.
Wileama wrote:As much as I hate to admit it, our aversion, though hypocritical at times, to killing is probably more of a cultural issue then anything else. However I think that aversion is the natural inclination of human societies.
dealing in broad terms (because sociology professors LOVE broad terms):
order dictates that we only kill a person when they pose the threat of taking lives themselves (or if they're a threat to order itself).
anarchy dictates that we kill any time we damn well please (assuming we're physically capable of it).
so yeah, if a human society has any structure to it, we have an aversion to killing (with no reason, anyway).
in other words:
Wileama wrote:aversion to killing is mostly a cultural issue.


it just hit me while I was re-reading (BORED!)...
Wileama wrote:I don't think Henrietta, or any of the girls, would be quite so bubbly, and innocent.
that would be true if they'd never known peace at all... however, their subconscious still controls their behavior and reactions to some extent... and we've seen some evidence that their respective subconscious remembers. So, the bubbly and innocent thing might be learned behavior from before the tradgedy and reconstruction.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 12 Nov 2007 - 23:25

LoC978 wrote:that would be true if they'd never known peace at all... however, their subconscious still controls their behavior and reactions to some extent... and we've seen some evidence that their respective subconscious remembers. So, the bubbly and innocent thing might be learned behavior from before the tradgedy and reconstruction.

Again, each of the girl's memories depends on how deep their conditioning was, though I do agree with their subconcious bringing up their pasts when least expected. DreamScape is such a scarey place unless you're a programmed Lucid Dreamer...
Ah... An Idea Forms...

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by emperor on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 5:34

Oh! It's many posts to quotes!!

Is it just me or does Rico seem like the most normal of the girls despite her conditioning. She is curious, makes card houses, jums on beds, walks along the side guards of a road, and so on. Stuff you would expect a 13 year old girl to do. She has her views on life; the go for it spirit and an appreciation of chances and opportunities (Her talk with Fillipo - the accountant/artist vol. 2). She lies to Jean about meeting the boy in vol 1. She is not emotionless (even if she executes her orders without emotion). She remembes having a misformed body and being abandoned by her parents; there is more to her than just the personality we see most of the time.

Great explanation for Rico!!

In vol. 6, after shooting the second guy in the boat she smiles right before falling into the water. At first I wasn't sure what to make of that, but she must have smiled because she did her job well and that means that she would not be considered "useless" (and thus could live on with her body).

Ah..this point I always confused then it's a Rico's smile!

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 17:35

LoC978 wrote:it just hit me while I was re-reading (BORED!)...
Wileama wrote:I don't think Henrietta, or any of the girls, would be quite so bubbly, and innocent.
that would be true if they'd never known peace at all... however, their subconscious still controls their behavior and reactions to some extent... and we've seen some evidence that their respective subconscious remembers. So, the bubbly and innocent thing might be learned behavior from before the tradgedy and reconstruction.
So what your saying is, the deconditioning, or what ever you want to call it, wouldn't be able to wipe that basic personality. Okay, you've got a point. However my point was more that if you live in a brutal world, you are more likely to become brutal. The girls may wake up day one not unlike how they where. If they constantly are surrounded by murder, and death; without conditioning, they would quickly become jaded, and cruel themselves. That was what I was trying to say.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 19:08

Wileama wrote:The girls may wake up day one not unlike how they where. If they constantly are surrounded by murder, and death; without conditioning, they would quickly become jaded, and cruel themselves. That was what I was trying to say.
ah. I see now. excellent point.
...I can only assume that conditioning prevents that, perhaps by deadening certain reactions within them, or perhaps because it causes them to see anyone not directly involved with their lives (aka anyone who doesn't work for or with the SWA) as less than an animal.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 19:57

LoC978 wrote:
Wileama wrote:The girls may wake up day one not unlike how they where. If they constantly are surrounded by murder, and death; without conditioning, they would quickly become jaded, and cruel themselves. That was what I was trying to say.
ah. I see now. excellent point.
...I can only assume that conditioning prevents that, perhaps by deadening certain reactions within them, or perhaps because it causes them to see anyone not directly involved with their lives (aka anyone who doesn't work for or with the SWA) as less than an animal.
I would believe that they are doing a good work as police officer extremes- killing bad guys who think they are above the law. As for being tired of it, I dont think they would get tired of it since their life spans are 'so short', they would be dead before they get to that state. Again, conditioning as a role here.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 20:23

In this, and many other ways I simply regard the conditioning as black box tech. It's there to serve a plot function. You can come up with some BS reasoning, but it's very hard to put together a working function of that particular piece, or aspect technology.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 20:25

The possibility exists that Yu himself doesn't know how his universe's technology works.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 20:28

So true. But those docs in the medical labs sure have fun trying!

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 20:31

And so do we.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by LoC978 on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 20:34

Nachtsider wrote:And so do we.
that's the crux of the matter, for me. I love speculating on what the cause and effect of the tech involved might be...

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 20:35

Maybe some day, Yu will stumble upon our meticulous research, be impressed, and commission us to pen an official guidebook.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Guest on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 21:08

This ends up being a "nature vs nurture" type discussion. I believe that people have the basic capacity for empathy. When they act to hurt others it's not because they don't feel empathy (except, neurotic killers - maybe), but because a whole ton of other motivations totally outweights it. I don't like it, but I have to agree with... practically everybody so far that how we view murder its primarily cultural. Especially young children have an amazing capacity to learn and adopt to their surroundings. 14 (this is not fact, but around this age) year old boys in Sparta would be sent to assasinate serfs as part of their training. If a 5 year old is told consistently that something is right by their parents they will believe it and if someone else tells them otherwise they will just reject it.

So (1) the girls would likely go with what their handlers say (2) it's very hard to change the way of thinking that gets instilled into you when you're young (3) The girls do have access to braod information about the outside world (which must include different perspectives on morality), but they are not quite at the age when you could expect deep and independent reflection leading to a change of conviction (4)
LoC978 wrote:...I can only assume that conditioning prevents that, perhaps by
deadening certain reactions within them, or perhaps because it causes
them to see anyone not directly involved with their lives (aka anyone
who doesn't work for or with the SWA) as less than an animal.

Conditioning is essentially not much more then the learning of responses at a subconscious level.
- Pavlov did it with dogs. He made them salivate (proubably misspelled that) when they hear a bell, regardless wheather food is present.
- Proffessional runners (athleets) start their race at the sound of the pistol shot. Through countless repetition they are conditioned and their hart rate and respiration increase significantly at the sound of a pistol shot regardless of wheather they are at a race or not.
- People who suffer from trauma, say an abused child, will have conditioned responses. They may break down crying or go into fits of uncontrollable fear as a result of seeing a belt or a particular sort of expression.
- and so on.

I imagine the drug is used primarily to speed up the process and to make it far more potent. Hipnosis, implants suggestions into people's minds when they are relaxed and susceptible the drug may get people into that state.

Although, all this doesn't mean that Yu had something specific in mind.

ElfenMagix wrote:I would believe that they are doing a good work as
police officer extremes- killing bad guys who think they are above the
law.

As Ferro said "We are the bad guys." But, yeah they mostly kill of mobsters and terrorists.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Wileama on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 11:22

Nachtsider wrote:The possibility exists that Yu himself doesn't know how his universe's technology works.
Possibility nothing. He might have some vague idea, but it's clearly a plot device, and not something like a Tolkien language.

LoC978 wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:And so do we.
that's the crux of the matter, for me. I love speculating on what the cause and effect of the tech involved might be...
The problem is that it's going to be impossible to create a clearly consistent mechanism all the way through. Even when you do get a general structure in place there will be no specific systems form some of the more blatantly impossible. This upsets the perfectionist in me. Thus I've learned to stop before I get to get to upset working on something that clearly isn't going to work out.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Sintendo on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 11:53

3klicks wrote:
yes. by volume 6, she's (chronologically)... older.

I read somewhere that the manga stated that 2 years have passed since she got her new body; making her 13 (14 by vol. 6). Now when I skim the manga I can't find it; it may have been wrong, or it's just the scanlation I'm using (or I just missed it).

I can't quite remember that well (been a long time since I've watched the anime) but I think she said something along the lines of "Two years ago, on my 11th birthday, My parents signed 17 documents..." Or something like that. By volume 1 of the manga/episode 3 of the anime, she's 13.
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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 17:36

Sintendo wrote:
3klicks wrote:
yes. by volume 6, she's (chronologically)... older.

I read somewhere that the manga stated that 2 years have passed since she got her new body; making her 13 (14 by vol. 6). Now when I skim the manga I can't find it; it may have been wrong, or it's just the scanlation I'm using (or I just missed it).

I can't quite remember that well (been a long time since I've watched the anime) but I think she said something along the lines of "Two years ago, on my 11th birthday, My parents signed 17 documents..." Or something like that. By volume 1 of the manga/episode 3 of the anime, she's 13.
Rico says it at the very beginning of Episode 3 "Ragazzo", when she is walking up.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Guest on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 18:57

Bingo! Yeah, that's it, although I think it isn't there in the manga. But, anyway Rico allows us to gauge the other girls ages. Triela is proubably 1 or 2 years older. Henrietta looks 2 years younger. Claes is about Triela's age. Angelica is about the same as Rico. Ot those are my estimate anyway.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 19:29

That would be 'girl ages'...
'Cyborg ages' would be very different:

Angie would be the oldest...
Rico and Henrietta about the same at 2 years since they came together.
Claes would be one of the youngest since Rico was around when Rabello was 'interviewed'.
Triela might be the second cyborg after Angie, but that would be a wild guess.

Petrushka would be the oldest girl but the youngest cyborg. What a freaking paradox!

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 21:08

Personally, I like the idea that the cyborgs are all much older (mentally and emotionally) than their physical appearances suggest, which is why I'm quite wedded to the notion that they don't physically age. Thinking that Angie is, in a sense, older than Petra just makes me smile.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by Guest on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 23:16

ElfenMagix wrote:Petrushka would be the oldest girl but the youngest cyborg. What a freaking paradox!
Laughing I can imagine the scene with Claes taking Petrushka somewhere. Petrushka acting all excited and all over the place and Claes trying to get her to behave. Although, it would be funnyer with Henrietta since she's more obviously younger.

Nachtsider wrote:Personally, I like the idea that the cyborgs are all much older
(mentally and emotionally) than their physical appearances suggest,
which is why I'm quite wedded to the notion that they don't physically
age. Thinking that Angie is, in a sense, older than Petra just makes me
smile.
Hmm... They can be somewhat older then they look I guess. For me, if they were too mature emotionally the story would loose some of its flavour.

That would be an interesting option to explore, though (that is a number of years after current manga time). It would be a similar concept to the whole "kid vampire" idea. Only example I can think of off the top of my head is "Interview With a Vampire" and I forget the little girls name, but there are many others.

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Re: When Jean hit Rico.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 23:27

3klicks wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:Petrushka would be the oldest girl but the youngest cyborg. What a freaking paradox!
Laughing I can imagine the scene with Claes taking Petrushka somewhere. Petrushka acting all excited and all over the place and Claes trying to get her to behave. Although, it would be funnyer with Henrietta since she's more obviously younger.
I see it with Angelica & Petrushka: The youngest child/oldest cyborg and the oldest girl/youngest cyborg. 8)

3klicks wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:Personally, I like the idea that the cyborgs are all much older
(mentally and emotionally) than their physical appearances suggest,
which is why I'm quite wedded to the notion that they don't physically
age. Thinking that Angie is, in a sense, older than Petra just makes me
smile.
Hmm... They can be somewhat older then they look I guess. For me, if they were too mature emotionally the story would loose some of its flavour.

That would be an interesting option to explore, though (that is a number of years after current manga time). It would be a similar concept to the whole "kid vampire" idea. Only example I can think of off the top of my head is "Interview With a Vampire" and I forget the little girls name, but there are many others.
Her name was Claudia. We spoke of her here a few times, thanx to me. :twisted:

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