My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 4 Mar 2008 - 8:06

I think that the 'accident' left Angie fatally wounded, and only though the cyber implants and stuff was she able to return from the dead. In effect, the prosthetics were her life-support system - pretty much like how Darth Vader's armor kept him alive after those horrific wounds he suffered during that fight with Obi-Wan.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by West Nile on Tue 4 Mar 2008 - 8:09

Well then... back on killing the girls. i think if the car hit Rico when she wasn't expecting it, and if it run her over, it would have killed her.

Star Wars flashback:
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Anakin: AAAhhh!
Obi-wan: YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!
Anakin: stop f*cking shouting! im right here! :lollol:

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Guest on Tue 4 Mar 2008 - 8:18

Nachtsider wrote:I think that the 'accident' left Angie fatally wounded, and only though the cyber implants and stuff was she able to return from the dead. In effect, the prosthetics were her life-support system - pretty much like how Darth Vader's armor kept him alive after those horrific wounds he suffered during that fight with Obi-Wan.

Potentially more so than any of the other girls, which would explain (to a degree), along with her general 'being a prototype' why her armored skin does not seem to work as well as, well, Rico's. Damn, I'd forgotten the car, but...yeah, looks like train or Enormous Effing Truck would be a better idea for vehicular attacks.

...though with the second-stagers, I seem to remember something about not being as well-armored. Hmm. >:D!

...er...I should probably move to 'saving' thread with said query, but them being cyborgs and all, is there anything that mandates needing them to grow? I mean, if they could keep them alive and conditioned (I don't think Italy's using its money for much else, considering what these girls have in them already! XD), they could theoretically be pseudo-immortal children. X_x;

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 4 Mar 2008 - 9:14

I've long championed the concept that they indeed have been mutilated into permanent children from the very outset of their roboticization, Alpha. As I've mentioned umpteen times, their youth is the perfect cover for conducting blackops, and physical growth hence serves no practical purpose. 'Sides, can you really expect people to believe that a child who's eighty percent artificial can physically mature?

Which leads us to the curious phenomenon of Triela being a fifteen-year-old trapped in a thirteen-year-old's body, and the like. And also Angelica being the physically youngest of the cyborgs, despite having been there the longest.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by LoC978 on Tue 4 Mar 2008 - 9:44

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:Finally...er, I should note that with .50 caliber weapons vs. cyborgs, it'd be less about the round itself and more about how you use it-- a Raging Bull, aside from being Goddamn hard to line up on them because they're fast like freaks, is not going to do as much to one of them as is the Baby Barrett. Why? Because, simply put, it's about velocity, as well as caliber. Giant handguns are going to still run into the armored skin to a degree, and they're unwieldy.
true, a .50AE (fired from a 6.5" barrel) has nowhere near the destructive capabilities of a .50BMG (fired from a 29.5" barrel)... those are two very different rounds, btw. Not all 50cals are created equal. However, I really don't think the girls could handle being hit with a .50AE... They might live, but it would do some damage.
speaking from practical experience: my shooting buddies and I were once firing at an empty propane tank made of 1/8" steel (we were bored of normal targets). My .40S&W (CZ-75) made a small dent, perhaps 3" wide, 1/4" deep. My brother's .45ACP (Springfield XD) made a small hole, perhaps 3/4" wide, with a 6" dent (and stayed inside the tank). My friend's .50AE (Desert Eagle) BLEW A FUCKING 6"+ HOLE UPON ENTRY... and a 3 or 4" hole for an exit. the damn thing practically crumpled.
I shudder to think what one of those monsters would do to one of the girls...

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by LoC978 on Tue 4 Mar 2008 - 10:30

it's not letting me edit my post anymore for some reason.. Hissy fit

Here's another .50cal handgun cartridge, one that would do even more damage.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Wileama on Tue 4 Mar 2008 - 12:27

Oh this thread is my kind of thread. Is everyone ready for the massive posts that covers like ten different things? I am. Very Happy

West Nile wrote:Star Wars flashback:
*Obi-wan several several parts of Anakin before he falls and gets burned*
Anakin: AAAhhh!
Obi-wan: YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!
Anakin: stop f*cking shouting! im right here! :lollol:
\\Obi-wan walks off
Anakin: For old times sake can't you at least finish me off quickly? I'm in a lot of pain, and will probably die anyway. Um, where are you going?

LoC978 wrote:Not all 50cals are created equal.
Oh I'm all over it. Physics to the rescue!

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:Because, simply put, it's about velocity, as well as caliber.
Ah the K = 1/2(M*V^2) argument. You are correct the V is squared. I haven't looked at the KE of any of these various rounds lets do that first, and fore most. Wikipedia's numbers are in a sweet spot of ease, and reliability so I'm using them. A quick look at the math confirms the numbers, assuming the test data is reliable. There is a range, because you can get different rounds of the same size.

Pistol Rounds: Rifle Rounds:Here's the first think you have to understand: all of these rounds are burning a different amounts of powder. That means they had different amounts of potential energy. Typically larger rounds have more room for powder, thus more potential energy. I mean just look at the difference between the .50 AE, and the .50 BMG it's like 14,000-19,000 J! If they where all burning the same amount of powder, it's true you might want to go with the smaller round. However smaller faster rounds, vs larger slower rounds still might not win out. That round still has to transfer it's energy to the target it hits. A larger round that moves more slowly is more likely to transfer more of the energy then it's smaller faster round.

It is true what weapon you fire it out of will also make a difference. A short barrel means less time for gas pressure to be converted into kinetic energy. However when comparing some of these rounds, even the right round out of the wrong weapon will do the job. I mean just look at what a monster the .50 BMG is to all these other rounds.

LoC978 wrote:However, I really don't think the girls could handle being hit with a .50AE... They might live, but it would do some damage.
According to the numbers, I would take the assault rifle over the .50 AE. As my back up weapon yeah, the that's a good round to be carrying. Maybe not the best due to handling, and ammo, but not bad by any means. Now then I don't think the .50 AE to the arm is going to worry the girls to much. To the chest, you'll probably slow her, but not kill. I stand by my opinion that the cyborgs aren't so much armored as they have highly resilient components. The question is, just how much energy do you think the skull, can take. It's natural slope makes it just a naturally good armored structure. However it's right on the edge, I could go either way.

Nachtsider wrote:Rico got hit by a car once, but it didn't seem to hurt her much. Don't know about an eighteen-wheeler, though. Or a train.
Rico seemed to do a good job of rolling with the car, and not being plastered by the bumper. Thus reducing the amount of energy transfered into her body, and thus reducing the 'ouch' factor. I think if she hadn't done that she would have died. Or at the very least been layed up for a while, as most major components of her body was replaced. Eighteen-wheeler, aught to be traveling about the same speed as a car. So it's going to have way more energy to transfer. It will kill. The train aught to be superior to both in terms of mass, and velocity. Again it will kill. Assuming of course they aren't going terribly slow, just barely clips the cyborg in question.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Guest on Tue 4 Mar 2008 - 16:01

Ah, the train. Poor Henrietta. That's how G.D. Wallez did it when fighting for his life (he and his cyborg and other mutant bodyguard).

Well, anyway, I highly doubt that the girls would only sustain some damage from a .45 magnum, much more a .50 AE or .50 BMG round. You're talking about rounds that can blow your head apart like a water baloon. If one of the girls were hit in the arm (say, by chance the elbow) by a .50 AE round (or larger), it wouldn't absorb the hit and she would take a wound... half her arm would be flying through the air, that or her elbow would simply explode. A hit in the chest would rip her apart; she'd be lucky to be alive.

I stand by my opinion that the cyborgs aren't so much armored as they have highly resilient components.
The girl's bones have been reinforced (or replaced by bones reinforced) with carbon fibers. I can imagine that their skin can similiarly be protected, before heating the carbon fibers solid and immobile, its a decently flexible material.

So if carbon fiber reinforcement is your idea of highly resilient components vs armored, then there you go.
... What's the difference?
Personally, if you ask me, depending on which part of the body you're talking about. Area around the ribcage I believe is pretty-well armored, but areas like the soft underbelly (where Angelica was shot and Claes was stabbed, both bleeding pretty bad) A hard-as-thin-steel skin grafting, mixed with a reinforced harder-than-steel bone material, bullets will have a hard time tumbling and doing damage as they are stopped when they hit these areas. Other places, where the bone "armor" is not present, damage can be worse.

When you have bullet rounds that would say, "Steel? Oh, you mean that shiny papery stuff?" if they could speak, the bullet is going straight through, though slowed, when it hits the cyborg. Russian 7.62mm rounds seem to have some penatration with a little luck. Also, rattling away at full-auto, its hard to hit straight with that round.

But needles and knives have a say-so, too.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Guest on Tue 4 Mar 2008 - 18:29

LoC978 wrote:true, a .50AE (fired from a 6.5" barrel) has nowhere near the destructive capabilities of a .50BMG (fired from a 29.5" barrel)... those are two very different rounds, btw. Not all 50cals are created equal. However, I really don't think the girls could handle being hit with a .50AE... They might live, but it would do some damage.
speaking from practical experience: my shooting buddies and I were once firing at an empty propane tank made of 1/8" steel (we were bored of normal targets). My .40S&W (CZ-75) made a small dent, perhaps 3" wide, 1/4" deep. My brother's .45ACP (Springfield XD) made a small hole, perhaps 3/4" wide, with a 6" dent (and stayed inside the tank). My friend's .50AE (Desert Eagle) BLEW A FUCKING 6"+ HOLE UPON ENTRY... and a 3 or 4" hole for an exit. the damn thing practically crumpled.
I shudder to think what one of those monsters would do to one of the girls...

...I knew I was missing something. Thank you. Yes. That was the other thing, is the difference between the .50AE and the .50BMG being tremendous...I don't know why I didn't just look that up. sweat One is an SUV, the other is a Goddamn freight train.

...Also thank you Wileama for the potential energy numbers. O_O ...holy...the .50BMG is insane. No wonder that round is so effin' enormous. Which makes the fact that the M107 accelerates it to race-car speeds that much more terrifying. The SWA needs to make sure that people don't bring those anywhere within a 4km radius of their headquarters unless it belongs to Rico, and even THEN.

I'm going to go with LoC/Wil on the whole "would the .50AE kill them outright"-- no. You'd have done a lot of damage, but...*shoots random second-stager*

Second-Stager: GAAAAGHH!

Given that the cyborgs' skin seems hard enough to make 9mm and 5.7x28mm rounds just stop/not matter, you probably haven't killed them yet. Disabled, if you're very lucky. But if they're cool enough they'll kill you, and then die a sad hospital death later. Her handler will cry. It'll be very sad.

Whereas...well we all agree on this point, but it's funny anyhow. *shoots Petra with the M107* ...wow, it's raining Petra-bits! XD

Alessandro: NOOOOOOO! My sweet little piece of--

GAH! *shoots him too, to canned laughter and applause*

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Wileama on Tue 4 Mar 2008 - 20:44

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:One is an SUV, the other is a Goddamn freight train.
Yes, yes it is. Very Happy You see why people get a hard on for that round?

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:Which makes the fact that the M107 accelerates it to race-car speeds that much more terrifying.
Why would you want to go that slow? The M107 slings a .50 BMG out at about 1,908 MPH. Anything above 761 mph for a car, and you get into record setting.

Colonel Marksman wrote:If one of the girls were hit in the arm (say, by chance the elbow) by a .50 AE round (or larger), it wouldn't absorb the hit and she would take a wound... half her arm would be flying through the air, that or her elbow would simply explode.
Your kidding me right? Dude Henrietta takes an 7.62 Soviet to the arm in the first episode. Her arm doesn't explode. That's carrying significantly more energy then the .50 AE. Her arm does not explode. Hell I'm fairly certain that a human arm doesn't explode for a 7.62 Soviet. If we where talking about the .50 BMG, oh yeah that'll tear a girls arm right off. That's carrying something like 13-19 times the energy though.

Colonel Marksman wrote:The girl's bones have been reinforced (or replaced by bones reinforced) with carbon fibers. I can imagine that their skin can similiarly be protected, before heating the carbon fibers solid and immobile, its a decently flexible material.
Colonel Marksman wrote:So if carbon fiber reinforcement is your idea of highly resilient components vs armored, then there you go.
... What's the difference?
Okay first question, when was the last time in the manga that you see a round just bounce off the skin? Never, they always penetrate. So if the skin where armored it's doing a pretty bad job of stopping these rounds. Also if the girls resilience where due to her body armor, Treila should have crumpled after all those stabs she took in volume five. When Angie gets shot in episode 13, that had to puncture the lung. There is no sign Angie received any on the scene treatment for a sucking chest wound. There is no sense of urgency. It's all hunky dory. When Claes gets stabbed in the abdomen Raballo doesn't freak out. At least not as much as he should. You puncture the intestine, your looking at a nasty infection. You need to get medical treatment as quick as physically possible. That, and you don't take the knife out, not for any stab wound.

That doesn't speak to body armor, that says to me the girls organs don't mind being shot/stab/ect. They are able to continue functioning despite these holes they occasionally receive. Now there is clearly some armor in the body. I was wrong now that i think about. There is one round that hit a girl, but did not penetrate. Rico had a pistol round skip off her head. That is one organ that can not function well with holes. On the flip side the skull makes it very easy to armor. The bones are armored again due to their nature, and the ease with which it can be done. There might be other examples of this for other critical components the heart.

In general however body armor for skin would be a logistical nightmare. Each time you do surgery you would have to repair the hole you put in it. There is no way you would repair it to the point it was as good as new. You would constantly be degrading the level of protection the girls hand. that, and I don't care what you say the material science doesn't work. You need a material of a tensile strength comparable to kevlar, if you want to stop bullets. That isn't a terribly flexible material. Look at the bio suit, and you get an idea of what having an inflexible skin could be like.

Having organs, and muscle structure that can shrug off damage is better then body armor. It doesn't degrade over time as you repair it. It's actually easier from an engineering point of view. It offers you protection from not just bullets, but shrapnel, and blades. Also yes you'll have different levels of protection for different area's. You can also look here if you want to see what I've said on this subject before.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Guest on Tue 4 Mar 2008 - 23:38

Your kidding me right? Dude Henrietta takes an 7.62 Soviet to the arm in the first episode.


That's the 7.62 second from the left... that's the .50AE on the far right.

People survive 9mm hits all the time. People are pretty lucky to survive 7.62, but it happens. If you're hit in the chest by .50AE round, its a freakin' God-interviened miracle if you have any portion of your chest still intact... and you're still alive.

Oh gosh, don't even start with the .50 BMG. Now you're talking about a light-vehicle killer if fired heavily enough.

Okay first question, when was the last time in the manga that you see a round just bounce off the skin? Never, they always penetrate.
Rico had a pistol round skip off her head. That is one organ that can not function well with holes.
9mm rounds do fail to penatrate the head. My grandmother knows an officer (as a dispatcher) who received a bullet straight to the head (9 milli of course). The bullet moved around the skull and exited out the other side.

But generally speaking, how do we know that, in Episode 1, Volume 1, Henrietta isn't having bullets bounce off of her? Or did Yu Aida just keep her clothes together? Or did the terrorists really miss THAT much?

I'm just provoking thoughts is all, no more.

But in essence, yes, I thought of all those incidents while trying to think up of something.

That doesn't speak to body armor, that says to me the girls organs don't mind being shot/stab/ect.
Ah ha. That's what I'm after. I wanted your interpretation of "more resiliant" because that phrase could mean anything.

Well, if you ask me, I think it's both (which was my original reply, but I didn't know what you meant by "resiliant"). The skin, I'm not saying is rock-solid armor. Just something that slows the bullet upon impact, maybe even a good shock absorber as well as armor. This way, when the round does grind to a halt at that bone, or penatrates that artificial digestive system, we're not talking about death blows.

The reason I'm stressing the carbon fibers so much is because IT'S CANON. Yu Aida specifically mentions it in there. Whether or not it makes any sense is null. Firey explosions in space don't many any sense either, but they're in Star Wars (amongst other sci-fi).

You seem to think I'm thinking in terms of rock-solid body armor (like dragon skin) all over the girls. It's not, and I know that's stupid. I'm simply using the term "body armor" because... what other word you have for it?

Any round .357 magnum hollowpoint, or higher, I'm not willing to use on shooting at the girls with. Anything short is just too puny. If it can't decapitate a human, it won't stop a cyborg... even if the cyborg isn't decapitated.

120mm now THERE'S a round worthy for the cyborg target! cheers

Anyway, according to Nacht, he seems to believe rounds bounce off the girls all the time (from reading his stories anyway). According to them, stray and lucky hits actually draw blood, much less, penatrate very deep. Do you still stick with that, Nacht?

In a general sense, this IS sci-fi. If in the science development there in Italy developed a usable skin graft that's harder than any known body armor, that can be cut around and grafted like sewing with newer peices, then there you go. SOMETHING is making the girls heavy. See Henrietta running the streets of Sicily? Crumbling bricks as she rams into them and cracking cement as she lands. Perhaps the skin acts as an excellent shock absorber (which is what I'm more inclined to believe). Like when bullets hit the water and slow down.

Iono, I'm just provoking more thinking and insight.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by LoC978 on Tue 4 Mar 2008 - 23:52

Colonel Marksman wrote:
Your kidding me right? Dude Henrietta takes an 7.62 Soviet to the arm in the first episode.


That's the 7.62 second from the left... that's the .50AE on the far right.
small correction... that's a 7.62x25mm Tokarev you pointed out. That's a handgun cartridge, it tends to be fired from a short barrel. Short barrel=shitty muzzle velocity.
'Etta was hit by a 7.62x39mm (commonly referred to as the 7.62 Soviet) fired from a rifle. That's a LOT more energy than the Tokarev. A bit more than a .50AE from a Desert Eagle. However, energy does not equal damage. There are a lot more factors to consider.
Colonel Marksman wrote:But generally speaking, how do we know that, in Episode 1, Volume 1, Henrietta isn't having bullets bounce off of her? Or did Yu Aida just keep her clothes together? Or did the terrorists really miss THAT much?
no, bullets don't bounce off of Henrietta, and yes, the terrorists missed that much. Did you see how they were holding those AKs? I'd be willing to bet a good 3/4 of those bullets struck inside the room, not even clearing the doorframe.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Guest on Wed 5 Mar 2008 - 1:35

Also, they are AKs, and while I love the Kalashnikov dearly, Henrietta is much, much smaller than the broad side of a barn, and she moves around like a bat out of hell, putting her squarely in the AK user's category of "nigh-impossible to hit." AKs are for room-clearing and taking potshots at Marines, not for hitting cyborg death children.

...Their skin...hmm. It certainly keeps hits from the tissues a hell of a lot better than normal skin does-- a 7.62 in a normal person you'd think would penetrate somewhat deeper than it did Henrietta, and Triela didn't even need treating for those two arm-hits from the Mafia. Possibly a cellulose layer? X_x; Or...something?

...I'mma have to go with Wil though on organ redundancy. The girls just don't seem to care. Hell, Rico got gunned through what looked like her trachea by Franco, or at least in an area of the neck you should not get gunned in, thanks to the plethora of needed veins and things like vocal chords. Triela got her eye torn out. Claes' stabbing would need immediate medical attention (infection, sepsis, internal bleeding, etc.) if her organs were normal, but Raballo's all "UR DOIN' IT WRONG" for a good three minutes. He's not worried.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 5 Mar 2008 - 1:50

When I first started writing fanfiction, I envisioned the girls as being walking suits of Kevlar or something. While I'm not so sure now that discussions with people like Wil and LoC have gone underway, it's too late for a retcon where my stories are concerned...

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Guest on Wed 5 Mar 2008 - 14:47



Still, the .50AE (the one on the far left is the .50 BMG, not the pistol round!) is pretty sizeable compared to the 7.62x39 rifle round (at short distances).

Then there's .600 Nitro Express!

no, bullets don't bounce off of Henrietta, and yes, the terrorists missed that much. Did you see how they were holding those AKs? I'd be willing to bet a good 3/4 of those bullets struck inside the room, not even clearing the doorframe.
You can't prove that, it never actually says that. Wink ... :lollol:

I'm just provoking thoughts and bringing up questions.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Wileama on Wed 5 Mar 2008 - 23:04

Okay first lets get this whole round thing out of the way.I can't find a good picture comparing the two. So we'll have to settle for just comparing the numbers, okay?
  • The .50AE is about 40.9 mm long, and 13.7 mm wide
  • The 7.62 Soviet is about 55.80 mm long [1.3 x .50AE] and 11.25 mm wide [.82 x .50AE]
  • The .50BMG blows both away with a length of 138 mm [2.5 x 7.62 Soviet/3.4 x .50AE] and a width of about 20.4 mm [1.8 x 7.62 Soviet/1.5 x .50AE]
Okay so the .50 AE, and the 7.62 soviet aren't too different in size. However the 7.62 Soviet still has about 1.6 times the energy of the .50AE. The .50BMG is in an entirely different league. It doesn't compare to rifle rounds, let alone pistols rounds.

LoC978 wrote:However, energy does not equal damage. There are a lot more factors to consider.
Okay this is entirely true. I tried to admit that earlier, but in retrospect didn't say it well, or make any real point of it. It's true there is a lot more to how badly a round wounds you then it's KE. However understanding a collision of that nature is much more complicated, and there aren't any good numbers for that. So I use KE, as a guide line. However I did feel compelled to try to understand it better. As a result I found this. Looks really well done, and has some interesting information.

Colonel Marksman wrote:People survive 9mm hits all the time. People are pretty lucky to survive 7.62, but it happens. If you're hit in the chest by .50AE round, its a freakin' God-interviened miracle if you have any portion of your chest still intact... and you're still alive.
Okay this is the problem I have. Bullets rarely 'explode the body,' as it where. They prefer to leave relatively neat holes in the body. So it sounds to me like your saying the .50AE is going to explode my chest. This does not jive with my knowledge base. I understand that find evidence is hard, especially for something like this. However, I think this is a case where anecdotal evidence simplely isn't going to do it. People with a poor opinion of one round are more likely to remember the times it failed. While those who have a good opinion of another round will only present it's success. Understand, I wouldn't want to get shot with a .50AE, it is a big round. I just don't think your taking a realistic look at it's stopping power.

Colonel Marksman wrote:But generally speaking, how do we know that, in Episode 1, Volume 1, Henrietta isn't having bullets bounce off of her? Or did Yu Aida just keep her clothes together? Or did the terrorists really miss THAT much?
Even when body armor stops a round you can still have things like broken ribs, massive bruising, ect. If rounds where bouncing off Henrietta I would expect to see some indication of that in the animation. Her clothes should react. She aught to at least wince, they may not feel pain for long, but they do feel it. Why should we see signs of rounds hitting the table, but not Henrietta?

Colonel Marksman wrote:Ah ha. That's what I'm after. I wanted your interpretation of "more resiliant" because that phrase could mean anything.

Well, if you ask me, I think it's both (which was my original reply, but I didn't know what you meant by "resiliant"). The skin, I'm not saying is rock-solid armor. Just something that slows the bullet upon impact, maybe even a good shock absorber as well as armor. This way, when the round does grind to a halt at that bone, or penatrates that artificial digestive system, we're not talking about death blows.
Okay it's true I didn't define more resilient terrible well in that post. However I have talked about this before, where I did a better job of defining what I mean. I even provided link to that. More resilient to me means that the girls artificial components are better able to shrug off the damage they receive then their natural counter parts. I consider this to be the primary method by which girls survive combat damage.

Now as for their being any armor in the girls. I suppose it's possible, but I don't think it's nearly that wide spread. It just seems like it's more trouble then it's worth. The skin does not appear to be artifical. In episode two the doctor tells Henrietta not to get her arm wet, till the skin on her arm heals. Then in volume six, we are told Petra is going to spend a day or two growing her skin. Incorporating an artificial fiber into the skin would make it very hard to grow skin. So it would more likely be a secondary layer under the skin. However this still runs into all the logistical issues I raised earlier. Cost benefit ratio doesn't jive for me. Besides traditional kevlar body armor like that doesn't help against stabbing weapons.

More importantly I don't see the girls having an additional shock absorbers. To absorb shock you need a material that will compress, and thus absorb the kinetic energy. You would essentially be adding a layer of fat to the girls. Only really high tech fat. What we've seen of the girls physique would seem to imply they don't have any additional mass like that. At least not in the volume need to act to cushion a blow of any significance. That, and it would be room you could be using for more muscle mass, or just plain old armor. If the girls work like I describe, they really don't need shock absorbers. So I would go ahead, and shoot that idea down.

Colonel Marksman wrote:The reason I'm stressing the carbon fibers so much is because IT'S CANON. Yu Aida specifically mentions it in there. Whether or not it makes any sense is null. Firey explosions in space don't many any sense either, but they're in Star Wars (amongst other sci-fi).
Okay two things: First there is some cannon better left ignored. A friend once made a good argument about this regarding Star Trek: Voyager. In one episode the ship is begins to take damage from pressure against the hull. Then some guy shouts out a number for hull pressure. It's about 1/8 a kilogram per square centimeter worth of force. This is a number better ignored then taken seriously. Similarly there is another episode of voyager where someone goes warp ten. Which is apparently impossibly fast, and as such the person occupies all points in the universe simultaneously thus causing him to undergo freak hyper fast evolution. This episode does not exist to a great number of Star Trek fans, and for good reason.

Second, it's never stated carbon fiber is used as body armor. The only components we know is made of carbon fiber are the bones. When Fermi states that 80% of the girls are carbon fiber, it could be two things. First is that it could be a mistranslation, and 80% artificial is what he means. Or he could be a section one punk who doesn't actually know the real number, just the one the guys in the office toss around. 58.2% of numbers are made up on the spot.

Colonel Marksman wrote:You seem to think I'm thinking in terms of rock-solid body armor (like dragon skin) all over the girls. It's not, and I know that's stupid. I'm simply using the term "body armor" because... what other word you have for it?
Then why suggest that rifle rounds are bouncing off Henrietta? That level of protection is something you can only get out of hard plates! Okay, I suppose I see now what you mean. It's just that your previous posts gave the impression that's what you did believe the girls had body armor for skin.

Colonel Marksman wrote:In a general sense, this IS sci-fi. If in the science development there in Italy developed a usable skin graft that's harder than any known body armor, that can be cut around and grafted like sewing with newer peices, then there you go.
Okay this is where I apply something called occam's razor. It could be that the SWA scientists have created the plastic equivalent of mithral. Or it could be that artificial organs made from plastic, metal, and even biological matter are more resilient then just biological ones. The later simply sounds more plausible. One has working real world science to back it up, while the other just resorting to 'magic future tech.' So yeah, I prefer the one that sounds more realistic.

Colonel Marksman wrote:You can't prove that, it never actually says that.
You know it doesn't actually say that those rounds that killed the last two terrorists, in episode 1, came from Rico's rifle. I bet she actually missed, and there was a second sniper there taking the shot. Again with occam's razor.

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:Also, they are AKs, and while I love the Kalashnikov dearly, Henrietta is much, much smaller than the broad side of a barn, and she moves around like a bat out of hell, putting her squarely in the AK user's category of "nigh-impossible to hit." AKs are for room-clearing and taking potshots at Marines, not for hitting cyborg death children.
The AK isn't the most accurate design, it's true. I think you can actually see the barrel flex in high speed footage. However I also think it gets a bad reputation. Most of the people you see firing it, in combat at least, are poorly trained third world guerilla's that don't maintain the weapon properly. Put it in the hands of a well trained soldier who maintains it, and I think you would be surprised just how well it does.

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:Triela didn't even need treating for those two arm-hits from the Mafia. Possibly a cellulose layer? X_x; Or...something?
Not on screen, she probably need to have the muscle structure replaced when she got back. As for on screen. The thing that bugs me the most is that they never seem to bleed the way they aught to. It's the one thing that just doesn't make any sense. What stops them from bleeding out? MAGIC, in my opinion.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 5 Mar 2008 - 23:14

What stops the girls from bleeding out might be some advanced coagulant that they receive with their conditioning shots.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Wileama on Wed 5 Mar 2008 - 23:53

Yeah, but then I would be worried about it coagulating in blood vessels, the heart, or some other organ.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 6 Mar 2008 - 0:14

The blood clearly doesn't do that, Wil - hence my referring to the coagulant as 'advanced'.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by Wileama on Thu 6 Mar 2008 - 0:31

Actually it does, that's more or less what a stroke is. A stroke is when a blood clot forms in the body, and then travels to the brain where it becomes lodged. It has also been a major issue in the development of the artificial heart. If blood wasn't kept constantly moving in the heart it would coagulate. Early models counter this by developing very rough walls to hold on to the clots. However this limited the time you could leave them in the body safely. Only recently have they began to really make progress on an artificial heart that wont clot blood.

Blood clotting is one of those things nature has been working on for a long time. It's probably at a point which would be very hard to improve upon. It is true though I am no expert.

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Re: My idea ; How to kill a cyborg...

Post by West Nile on Thu 6 Mar 2008 - 0:35

i remember reading once that at a certain time of youth, blood vessels react differently compared to adult blood vessels, blood vessel's constrict faster when your younger , that's why some kids are indestructible

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