I'm curious...

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I'm curious...

Post by Guest on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 8:14

I've seen Danjo mention this quite a few times, and I'm rather intrigued... Which story started the "stereotypical" original character fratello? (Which are, according to Danjo: the handler ends up being the wisest of everyone in Section Two, and the cyborg transforms into a Mary Sue and bumps Triela out of her top-dog spot.)

It's just one of those little questions that's always been in the back of my mind. Any answers are appreciated.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by LoC978 on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 11:02

the closest thing I've seen is Sintendo's Life, Liberty, and... (which I loved, by the way)
... but Bradley just turns the SWA on it's head, he doesn't make a Mary-Sue cyborg outta Claes.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by boomer_gonz on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 12:30

Marksman accused me of that early on in The Alpha Effect. But anybody whose actually read the fic can see that its not the case.
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by LoC978 on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 12:34

and, of course, Danjo3 accused me of it in the first chapter of Rebirth of a Queen. (I admit that the title is misleading {it's a reference to her name, dammit! and if a former queen is reborn, that doesn't automatically mean she'll be a queen again}... and Orazio sounded a little like a fool with a superiority complex in the first chapter, but...)
... I like parentheses... and brackets... they're my friends.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Guest on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 12:43

...so I'm the only person Danjo's never accused of creating a stereotypical fratello from the get-go?

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 13:09

I too was accused of such crimes, but at least I'm being accused for something that I am doing and not something I was supposed to do. Very Happy

Yeah; In a world where one is damed for doing and damned for not, I rather be damned for something I have done than to be damned for nothing.
BTW- my home internet is down, so postings across the board/story will be limited until it is fixed... I so hate that.
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 13:49

The Oddity wrote:I've seen Danjo mention this quite a few times, and I'm rather intrigued... Which story started the "stereotypical" original character fratello? (Which are, according to Danjo: the handler ends up being the wisest of everyone in Section Two, and the cyborg transforms into a Mary Sue and bumps Triela out of her top-dog spot.)

It's just one of those little questions that's always been in the back of my mind. Any answers are appreciated.
I can tell you right now, no one is going to admit that their OCís are Mary/Sue - Marty/Stews. I always thought it was funny that everyone can see it but the author. But I suppose itís understandable. Iíve only had one OC and I only stuck him in to keep Claes in the story.

As for the first story, I have a pretty good idea, but I rather not say. You can get away with murder around here, but if you diss someoneís OC, youíve thrown down the gauntlet.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:01

@Danjo3 wrote:As for the first story, I have a pretty good idea, but I rather not say. You can get away with murder around here, but if you diss someoneís OC, youíve thrown down the gauntlet.
That sounds like somebody I know on another forum...
She can bend and twist everyone else's characters in a fanfict/round robin, but touch hers, you would be better off trying to pick up a burning log with your bare hands! :affraid: :bounce:
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by LoC978 on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:03

@Danjo3 wrote:I can tell you right now, no one is going to admit that their OCís are Mary/Sue - Marty/Stews. I always thought it was funny that everyone can see it but the author.
now I'm all worried about my characters again... should I get 'em killed? would that help?

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:05

@LoC978 wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:I can tell you right now, no one is going to admit that their OCís are Mary/Sue - Marty/Stews. I always thought it was funny that everyone can see it but the author.
now I'm all worried about my characters again... should I get 'em killed? would that help?
Naw... Just admit you like to play the role of God on Earth in your fanfict, and write it in your own POV :twisted:
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by LoC978 on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:09

@ElfenMagix wrote:Naw... Just admit you like to play the role of God on Earth in your fanfict, and write it in your own POV
but I don't! seriously, I'm such a stickler for quasi-realism that I can't stand not knowing exactly how the girls' artificial bodies are constructed so I know precisely how tough/strong/vulnerable they are!

... and not having an official timeline is killing me. from the time that Ange was reconstructed, it's been somewhere between two and nine years. That's a big, uncertain gap.


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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:11

@LoC978 wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:I can tell you right now, no one is going to admit that their OCís are Mary/Sue - Marty/Stews. I always thought it was funny that everyone can see it but the author.
now I'm all worried about my characters again... should I get 'em killed? would that help?
Just make sure they go out in a blaze of Glory.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:13

@Danjo3 wrote:As for the first story, I have a pretty good idea, but I rather not say. You can get away with murder around here, but if you diss someoneís OC, youíve thrown down the gauntlet.

C'mon, Danjo - we're all friends here.
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:15

@Danjo3 wrote:
@LoC978 wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:I can tell you right now, no one is going to admit that their OCís are Mary/Sue - Marty/Stews. I always thought it was funny that everyone can see it but the author.
now I'm all worried about my characters again... should I get 'em killed? would that help?
Just make sure they go out in a blaze of Glory.
Like Data did in the last Star Trek Movie?:affraid:

Now which Gs-Girl would you send out on that mission?
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:17

Angelica, perhaps. But I've never been one to off canonical characters - my stories do their best never to muck with the original series' continuity.
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:20

Maybe be we can send that Jane Doe cyborg...
(sorry for link snatching)


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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:22

I like to think that Jane Doe is my OC given semi-official status.

Trust me - Liesel will go out in a blaze of glory one day.
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Guest on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:23

@Nachtsider wrote:I like to think that Jane Doe is my OC given semi-official status.
I do hope you're still joking with that.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:26

@ElfenMagix wrote:Like Data did in the last Star Trek Movie?:affraid:
How did he go?

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:28

The Oddity wrote:I do hope you're still joking with that.

Witness the problems that invariably plague exponents of deadpan humor.
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:32

@Danjo3 wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:Like Data did in the last Star Trek Movie?:affraid:
How did he go?
To save Captain Picard from the 'About to explode Romulian ship" Data switch places with him and he blew up with the ship instead of the captain.
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:35

@ElfenMagix wrote:To save Captain Picard from the 'About to explode Romulian ship" Data switch places with him and he blew up with the ship instead of the captain.
I can easily see one of the girls doing that for her handler.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:35

The Oddity wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:I like to think that Jane Doe is my OC given semi-official status.
I do hope you're still joking with that.
As of Vol.7, how many cyborgs out there that do not have handlers?
Oh what the hell... send them all out into the moutains of Afghanistan and order them not to return without Bin Laden's head...
The rest of him an rot in the dessert...
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:38

Interesting you'd mention that, Elfen. Liesel saw service in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by LoC978 on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:39

@ElfenMagix wrote:As of Vol.7, how many cyborgs out there that do not have handlers?
canonically? one that we know of.
... I don't think Claes would appreciate being sent to Afghanistan like that...

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 14:57

@LoC978 wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:As of Vol.7, how many cyborgs out there that do not have handlers?
canonically? one that we know of.
... I don't think Claes would appreciate being sent to Afghanistan like that...
I remember seeing somewhere Petra talking to several other cyborgs, but it seemed that they did not have handlers. Also it was one of the non-english ones in Tommy's FTP, making it Vol 6,7, or 8.
I cant find it now... :suspect:
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 15:00

@Nachtsider wrote:Interesting you'd mention that, Elfen. Liesel saw service in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
Well... my Rachel has not seen much other than the Violence in the Streets of NYC; which she always a victim off. I hope she does not coward into a ball when she runs out of bullets.
Its easy to be brave when your gun is loaded with bullets!
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by LoC978 on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 15:01

these girls? volume nine... though we just don't know who their handlers are. I assume that they do have handlers, though.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Oct 2007 - 15:06

OK, that explains why I cant find them...

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Sintendo on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 1:05

@LoC978 wrote:the closest thing I've seen is Sintendo's Life, Liberty, and... (which I loved, by the way)
... but Bradley just turns the SWA on it's head, he doesn't make a Mary-Sue cyborg outta Claes.

He got an arm and a leg blown off, dagnabbit! Lay off the old man!

...

Bradley: Old?
Me: ... *runs*
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 1:12

@Danjo3 wrote:As for the first story, I have a pretty good idea, but I rather not say. You can get away with murder around here, but if you diss someoneís OC, youíve thrown down the gauntlet. [/size]

Still waiting for you to take up on my offer, man. We're all friends here, Danjo - you can tell us the answer without fear.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 12:16

@Nachtsider wrote:Still waiting for you to take up on my offer, man. We're all friends here, Danjo - you can tell us the answer without fear.

I tell you what - you guess it correctly and I'll let you know.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 20:52

Heh. You're a rum one, Danjo.

If it's me you're referring to, I must mention that none of my original characters (the cyborgs, specifically) rate as 'Mary-Sues' or 'Gary-Stus' on any of the 'litmus tests' designed to ferret out such individuals - I'd be willing to post a full breakdown of the results if anyone so pleases. Also, I'd like to add that although I crafted their appearances, background stories and personality traits myself, things like their ages, skills and combat roles were determined RPG-style - completely by means of dice rolls. Ergo, no unfairness there - everything was entirely in the hands of Lord Logaan.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 28 Nov 2007 - 2:01

I'm sorry to say this Nachtsider, but if you looked up Mary-Sue in the dictionary, you would find a picture of Liesel and I'm sure the word quintessential would pop up somewhere too. This girl is so over the top it's ridiculous. I know you wrote this yourself, but read it.

@Nachtsider wrote:PERSONALITY: Previously sweet and sensitive, even a little spoilt. Conditioning appears to have brought about a near-complete change in character. Now focused and disciplined, completely embracing role as a soldier. Intelligent and quick to learn Ė values cool reason above all else as a decision-making tool and possesses a keen grasp of strategy, along with formidable multi-tasking skills. Is justifiably confident in her abilities; can never be accused of false humility, but is not a braggart, being simply honest to a fault (ďTo a logician, all things should be seen exactly as they are, and to underestimate oneself is as much a departure from truth as to exaggerate oneís own prowessĒ). Largely solitary, but nevertheless aware of her role as a team player; has capacity for emotion and friendship and is considerate and helpful to her comrades whenever needed. Reveres her handler as a mentor and guardian; is affable with him, but not intimate. Although usually courteous and refined Ė these traits being a remnant of her prior life among the bourgeois Ė she has a black sense of humor and can be extremely vicious in battle or when provoked. Secretly very concerned with upholding her image of professionalism; these perfectionist tendencies occasionally put a strain on her and hinder her reasoning. Also harbors underlying apprehension about dying, which is induced by residual memories of her tragic past. Does not want her final departure to be a meaningless one.

MISCELLANEOUS: Overseas combat arms experience Ė cut her teeth during Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan) while attached to Task Force 11; later participated in Operation Iraqi Freedom with British Special Forces near Basra, and with 75th Exploitation Task Force in hunt for weapons of mass destruction. Veteran of numerous successful law-enforcement operations under the temporary aegis of various Italian security forces. Lives alone in apartment whose interior reflects the polished tastes of herself and her handler. Speaks, reads and writes in several different languages. Endowed with knowledge of a variety of subjects ranging from chemistry to electronics. Has an artistic bent Ė paints watercolors, plays the erhu and, to a lesser extent, keyboards. Listens to a variety of music, but especially loves symphonic metal and gothic rock.
Good Lord! This girl gives old Biff a run for his money. I find it very difficult to believe that this was unintentional. Now if you told me she was a parody meant to lampoon other MS's, I would say great job. But I'm pretty sure she's suppose to be legit (she is, isn't she?). If you used dice rolls to come up with her, they must have been loaded to shoot 7's and 11's. She put's Wonder Woman to shame.

Now I'm sure you have no idea why I feel this way, but as I stated earlier, OC authors are always blind to what is painfully obvious to everyone else.

For the record, I think you're a wonderful author and I really enjoy your writing style, I just believe that when it comes to Liesel, you lose your perspective.

Anyway, to quote Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."

PS: Don't forget - it was you who wanted to know.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 1 Jan 2008 - 6:08

Is there truly anything above that would be inconsistent with a highly-trained real-world special operative?

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 1 Jan 2008 - 11:32

@Nachtsider wrote:Is there truly anything above that would be inconsistent with a highly-trained real-world special operative?
Absolutely not, especially if you happen to be a little girl whoís James Bond, Ethan Hunt and Jason Bourne all rolled into one.

BTW, this is exactly why I didnít want to say anything - I knew it would touch off a pissing match and thatís what I was trying to avoid. Itís my own fault though, I should have known betterÖ

But I will give you credit for this Nachtsider, at least you didnít go Panzer on my ass.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Wileama on Tue 1 Jan 2008 - 12:45

@Nachtsider wrote:Is there truly anything above that would be inconsistent with a highly-trained real-world special operative?
Isn't mary sue more a function of personality then capabilities? Anyway the misc stuff is mostly spot on for an actual special operator. Personality wise they tend to be extremely confident people, and dedicated to their team. Type A kind of personalities. I get the sense you can't make it the Specail Ops world with out that. However cyborgs get conditioned. Cyborgs don't struggle to prove themselves worthy for the job, like their human counters parts, they are simply made for it. That's my take on it any way.

@Nachtsider wrote:Endowed with knowledge of a variety of subjects ranging from chemistry to electronics.

For what I understand a lot of Special Operators have a tendency to get high degrees. Simply, because they have so much time for classes, and the military pays for it. I get the sense though their degrees tend to be more political, and english then science. I think if they know electronics it's more of a working mans understanding of how his radio gear works. That's the only skill that really rubs me as unrealistic.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 1 Jan 2008 - 13:35


I know Iím going to regret saying this (I guess Iíll never learn) but just look at this shit and tell me how many of our girls even come close to it. Theyíre trained to be assassins, not international super-heroís.
@Nachtsider wrote:MISCELLANEOUS: Overseas combat arms experience Ė cut her teeth during Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan) while attached to Task Force 11; later participated in Operation Iraqi Freedom with British Special Forces near Basra, and with 75th Exploitation Task Force in hunt for weapons of mass destruction. Veteran of numerous successful law-enforcement operations under the temporary aegis of various Italian security forces. Lives alone in apartment whose interior reflects the polished tastes of herself and her handler. Speaks, reads and writes in several different languages. Endowed with knowledge of a variety of subjects ranging from chemistry to electronics. Has an artistic bent Ė paints watercolors, plays the erhu and, to a lesser extent, keyboards. Listens to a variety of music, but especially loves symphonic metal and gothic rock.
I never remember any of them stepping foot outside of Italy.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Wileama on Tue 1 Jan 2008 - 14:05

No they don't. There really isn't anything stopping you doing that though. Special operators put a lot of importance on language. If you have a long lived career in Special Forces your likely to be a bad ass. All I'm say is it's a defensible concept. It does lean a bit to the master of everything.
\\shrug

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by LoC978 on Tue 1 Jan 2008 - 14:19

...Nachtsider tends to give the canon girls that much credit as well. Any of 'em would be a Mary Sue in other people's fiction. In his, though, they're all super-soldier/super-spies as far as I've seen.
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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 1 Jan 2008 - 14:26

@LoC978 wrote:...Nachtsider tends to give the canon girls that much credit as well. Any of 'em would be a Mary Sue in other people's fiction. In his, though, they're all super-soldier/super-spies as far as I've seen.
If you give the same super-powers to canon characters that you give to your OCís, then I guess itís alright (rolls eyes).

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 1 Jan 2008 - 21:07

@Wileama wrote:Cyborgs don't struggle to prove themselves worthy for the job, like their human counters parts, they are simply made for it.

Apart from this little bit here - there are quite a few parts in the canon indicating that our girls had to strive at getting to grips with their heightened abilities, and look what happened to Henrietta and Elsa continually trying to prove themselves to their handlers - LoC and Wileama have pretty much grasped what I've been aiming at with my OCs and my interpretations of the original cast.

Super-soldiers are what these kids are, and my take on things is that it would make sense for the Agency to fully utilize their extraordinary potential instead of producing an army of puppets who blindly follow orders and function only slightly better than an ordinary trooper. And where OCs are concerned, their primary function in my book is that of complementing - not supplanting - the canon characters, and carrying the plot forward in situations no canon character could. Take Liesel's forensic investigation of Elsa's death as told to Triela in 'Iceberg', for instance. While I retrospectively admit that Beatrice could have filled in that role just as well, Beatrice didn't exist back when I wrote that chapter, and Liesel was the only one on hand with appropriate skills to conduct that installment. Same goes for Aharon and Meir of 'Battlezone' fame, who were the only people capable of offering the SWA girls any form of expertise in dealing with al-Qaeda on their own turf. And while my OCs possess some skills that the canon characters don't have, the door swings both ways. Triela still rules the roost in CQB, Rico's still the best sniper, and Angie's still mighty quick on the draw. I present the SWA (and its allies) as being something like the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team or similar, where everyone has some special skills, talents, and experience to contribute to the collective pool.


@Danjo3 wrote:BTW, this is exactly why I didnít want to say anything - I knew it would touch off a pissing match and thatís what I was trying to avoid. Itís my own fault though, I should have known betterÖ

But I will give you credit for this Nachtsider, at least you didnít go Panzer on my ass.

Since when was this a pissing match? It always struck me as a cordial, intelligent debate between cordial, intelligent individuals.

I'm not sure exactly what happened with Panzer, people, but I won't make the mistake of going into it here. Maybe I'll contact one of you in private.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 2 Jan 2008 - 2:05


Letís just do a quick summary of Liesel:

- Fought in Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan) while attached to Task Force 11.

- Fought in Operation Iraqi Freedom with British Special Forces near Basra, and with 75th Exploitation Task Force in hunt for weapons of mass destruction.

- Veteran of numerous successful law-enforcement operations under the temporary aegis of various Italian security forces.

- Lives alone in apartment whose interior reflects the polished tastes of herself and her handler.

- Endowed with knowledge of a variety of subjects ranging from chemistry to electronics.

Now letís compare her to the best that canon has to offer, the Princess Triela. You know what? You canít. Your MS blows her out of the water. She blows away all the canon girls. As a matter of fact, the only person in the Agency she doesnít surpass is Biff - and thatís pretty close.

BTW, every now and then, Biff and Liesel like to go out for lattes. They swap war stories and decorating ideas. Thereís no other man in the Agency who has Biffís knowledge of fabrics and color coordination.

I know that Liesel is nothing more then fan fiction and I know how much fun OCís can be. Iím not trying to rag on you Nachtsider nor am I asking you to get rid of her. All Iím saying is that sheís not even close to playing in the canon ballpark.


Last edited by on Wed 2 Jan 2008 - 19:03; edited 1 time in total

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 2 Jan 2008 - 2:58

In my fanfiction, Angelica and Triela were with Task Force 11, too, and virtually all the SWA girls were gambolling around Iraq at the relevant time. Even if we're talking canon, though, it's pretty obvious that every Agency cyborg would have plenty of successful law-enforcement operations under their belts - see Episode Six, for instance. I'm not sure what special significance can be made of Liesel living alone in a well-kept apartment, and the 'special skills' bit I've already covered above. Therefore, the stuff you raise doesn't really cut much ice.

But the idea of writing a story starring both Britney/Biff and Liesel/Altheus is mighty intriguing, Danjo. I think I'd take up the challenge, but only if you okay the idea. If the answer is yes, I promise to forward you a full copy of the script before publishing in order to make sure I've used your characters correctly.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 2 Jan 2008 - 3:59


No offense Nachtsider, but thereís no arguing with an OC author. They all defend their characters as they would their own child. You know what? Your right. Liesel fitís in perfectly with the other girls. I donít know how I missed that. My bad.
@Nachtsider wrote:But the idea of writing a story starring both Britney/Biff and Liesel/Altheus is mighty intriguing, Danjo. I think I'd take up the challenge, but only if you okay the idea. If the answer is yes, I promise to forward you a full copy of the script before publishing in order to make sure I've used your characters correctly.
As I said earlier, I like your work and writing style. I would consider it an honor for you to incorporate Biff and little Britney into one of your stories. You have my blessing.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Wileama on Wed 2 Jan 2008 - 6:14

I'm not touching this Mary Sue argument. So don't drag me into it please. There is an interesting tangent that I want to explore.

@Nachtsider wrote:Apart from this little bit here - there are quite a few parts in the canon indicating that our girls had to strive at getting to grips with their heightened abilities, and look what happened to Henrietta and Elsa continually trying to prove themselves to their handlers.
Yes the girls do train a lot. However they don't require the same desire about getting better as the human counter parts. If you want to get into Special Forces you have to want it with every fiber of your being, or you will wash out. You have to have the drive to push yourself beyond exhaustion. You have to have a conviction that the hardships you suffer are worth it. Being a little bit crazy doesn't hurt either. The girls don't need any of that, they have conditioning. If they are told by their handler, move faster, they move faster. If they are told, stay out all night, and train, they do it. They don't say this sucks I would rather quit. They can't quit. So yes maybe they do push themselves from time to time. However I don't think it's the same thing.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Guest on Thu 3 Jan 2008 - 11:43

An interesting point. The thing I'm wondering about is whether the conditioning goes against their will, or changes their will/disposition. It seems that it's a bit of each, and maybe more of the second. They do want to get better, and they do want to do what they are doing, but this is caused largely by the conditioning. It makes them want to please their handlers and to need/desire their approval more then anything (whether they admit it or not). So in a strange way they are driven and want to do what they are doing. It's just that if they were suddenly "de-conditioned" (which is impossible from what we know so far) they would proubably want out.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 3 Jan 2008 - 12:10

3klicks wrote:An interesting point. The thing I'm wondering about is whether the conditioning goes against their will, or changes their will/disposition. It seems that it's a bit of each, and maybe more of the second. They do want to get better, and they do want to do what they are doing, but this is caused largely by the conditioning. It makes them want to please their handlers and to need/desire their approval more then anything (whether they admit it or not). So in a strange way they are driven and want to do what they are doing. It's just that if they were suddenly "de-conditioned" (which is impossible from what we know so far) they would proubably want out.

I would not say that it goes against them, it is more like drives it to a preferable direction. It is not like they are in bed wondering why they did something they did not wanted to do, its more like they are wondering if they did well enough to please their handlers. The ones under light condictioning are aware to this. The heavier dosed ones are more oblivious to it.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Guest on Thu 3 Jan 2008 - 12:25

Elfen-Magix wrote:I would not say that it goes against them,
That's what I'm getting at.

Although, there are some things they have their doubts about. For example if Hillshire was different he would have come out of hiding and ordered Triela to take Mario, or under an even different set of circumstances to kill him. We know she wanted to let Mario escape, at least untill he can meet his daughter, but the conditioning would likely make disobeying a direct order very difficult (if not impossible). So the conflict of interests is possible. For the most part though, the girl's new-found adoration and attachment to their handlers means that they are neutral to, or enjoy their work. Triela was likely to have let Mario go because she kenew Hillshire well enough to tell that he would not be particularly upset about it, or, if she didn't know that directly, she followed Hillshires example of a generaly kind disposition.

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Re: I'm curious...

Post by Wileama on Thu 3 Jan 2008 - 17:26

You know if Hillshire had turned to corner, and asked Triela to kill Mario. Triela probably would have argued with him about it. Granted she would have slammed Mario's ass into to the ground if had tried to run away. Yes she would ultimately kill Mario if Hilshire wouldn't come around, but Triela would be upset over it.

That's what interests to me about Triela. She has her own opinions. She seems like the only operational cyborg that has a real understanding of the situation she's in. I feel like I could sit down with her, and have an intelligent discussion about the morality of what it is she does.

In general though their free will does seem curved by conditioning. It's subtle some times, but ultimately they aren't free. The conditioning makes them loyal little killing machines.

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