Bullet-proof car in SWA

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Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by emperor on Fri 6 Mar 2009 - 2:09

If we didn't count that Padania's bullet-proof ferrari. [Rico hit it with M60?]

Where else we can find a car with anti-bullet like this.

I think SWA had bullet-proof cars somewhere.


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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 6 Mar 2009 - 2:14

They probably have a whole fleet of them. Not just cars, but larger vehicles like vans. I think it's an easy bet that Alphonso's van is bulletproof.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 6 Mar 2009 - 11:45

It's kind of hard to tell, to be honest. I am not sure the animators in -Il Teatrino- are trying to show the cars as bullet-resistant or if they just don't understand the physics.

In Episode 13, Jean's CL500 is pretty well peppered by Franco's suppressive fire and Jean, Amadeo(?) and the other guy are all standing up behind it, so they don't appear to be worried about rounds penetrating the body panels or the glass to get to them. On the flip side, the bullets do leave actual holes in the glass, which implies penetration. Yet I doubt an unprotected window would take as many hits as they did and not shatter.

I don't know what rounds Franco's gun fires. I assume 9x19mm Parabellum, which means it should not penetrate EN 1063 BR2 armor. So maybe he is using something with an impact energy of greater then 640 J - maybe steel-core rounds which would not be a true "armor-piercing" round, but they would have better penetration.

Franca's Alfa also takes multiple hits to the windshield from Rico's Beretta SCP, but that weapon is both silenced and using subsonic rounds so impact energies are likely significantly reduced. As such, a modern laminated safety windshield may very well not shatter under the impact of those bullets, especially since the impacts are not close together. On the flip side, the side windows take multiple hits from 9x19mm rounds and they don't shatter, so I tend to believe her car is armored to BR2 levels, as well.

Angie's Steyr AUG shatters the Alfa's windshield with the first rounds, but it shatters in the middle and is still intact around the edges. EN 1063 BR5 armor will defeat 5.56x45mm NATO and is rated for almost three times the energy BR2 armor is, so I would not be surprised if the windshield was BR2, it would react to incoming 5.56 rounds in the way it did in the anime.

And Cristiano's Alfa (Mercedes in the anime) is also armored because Rico put's his butlers face through the side window without it shattering. I am guessing BR2 armor here, as well, which is a pretty scary indicator of just how much power the girls have to be able to push a human head partially through it with one shove.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 6 Mar 2009 - 20:55

The problem with bullet proofing is that it is built limited to a certain level. It could handle being fired upon with hand and medium sized weapons, but to go larger guns, and the protection fails.

Also bullet proofing does not always protect the occupants from bombings. This is the case with the Pizza Vans as I did them in my fanfict Solution's Resolution. The Pizza Van was hit by an RPG, though it was not penetrated by the shell, the resulting explosion flipped the van up onto its roof, partially crushing it, injuring the occupants inside.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 8 Mar 2009 - 1:43

Well we know from Volume 8 that the Italian government has access to advanced CFRP armor developed by the SWA.

When Petrushka fired her submachine gun at the BMW X5, the bullets from her Spectre M4 literally bounced off both the windows and the body panels. As such, the armor is likely designed to resist the impact of high-speed, high-energy projectiles, but at the expense of low-velocity rounds shattering the inner layer and creating a spiderweb effect.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Awinnell on Sun 8 Mar 2009 - 7:40

funny thing ,a .45 generally wil not penetrate a windshield with one round it takes two,but a 9mm will go straight through, i recently saw a program in which they fired a 16th century matchlock at a sheet of mild steel about 5mm thick(about as thick as the armour of the time) they first tested the steel against a colt 1911 .45,at about 10 metres,possibly less, they were in the basement of a museum,it left a dent,the matchlock put a half inch hole in the steel !

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 8 Mar 2009 - 20:08

Awinnell, the same applies to a human body.

The .45 is designed to kill (or greatly wound) who it hits upon impact, as all munitions have been made up to that point (we're talking 1840 - 1911), by transfering all energies from the bullet to the body, causing heavy damage. This transfer of energy causes the bullet to stop in the body. That is why they are called Man-Stoppers.

The 9mm is designed to go through the body, to injure the body, in hopes to capture the assailent alive. But since criminals do like to play nice, the 9mm FMJ has been converted to a 9mm hollow point, and force the engery to disperse into the body and stop the assailent.

The .45 travels slower than the 9mm. The .45 is short and stubby, the 9mm long and thin (comparatively). This is enough of a difference to see what is going on here.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by LoC978 on Mon 9 Mar 2009 - 14:49

...and if you really wanna go through armor with a handgun, you'd be better served with FN 5.7mm ammo.

failing that, use a .500 Smith and Wesson.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 10 Mar 2009 - 0:07

.500 S&W Magnum.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 10 Mar 2009 - 0:09

Make a demotivator of that, Kisk. You MUST.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 10 Mar 2009 - 0:10

I'll take a...shot...at it in the morning.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Tommygunner70 on Tue 10 Mar 2009 - 10:41

@emperor wrote:If we didn't count that Padania's bullet-proof ferrari. [Rico hit it with M60?]

With an German MG42 / MG3.

I cant really say for sure that its either of the two, because of the crappy gun details in that episode.

though I do think that its the MG3. Rico is holding onto the bipod to be able to brace the weapon a little bit better.
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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 10 Mar 2009 - 10:44

It's a Rheinmetall MG3 all right. The Grossfuss gun would belong in a museum, not with the SWA...

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Tommygunner70 on Tue 10 Mar 2009 - 10:46

@Nachtsider wrote:It's a Rheinmetall MG3 all right. The Grossfuss gun would belong in a museum, not with the SWA...

How can you be so sure?

The only real difference between the MG42 and the MG3 is the ammo sizes they fire, and some weight, length and the rate of fire differences.
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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 10 Mar 2009 - 11:04

Well, Tommy, I just didn't think a Second World War weapon would be in use anymore. I thought it more likely that any version of the weapon being utilized nowadays would be the modern variant, especially by a high-tech organization like the SWA.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 10 Mar 2009 - 11:12

I suddenly realized that I forgot to take people like Frederick into consideration. Then again, he probably doesn't count in this case. Razz

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Tommygunner70 on Tue 10 Mar 2009 - 17:54

@Nachtsider wrote:Well, Tommy, I just didn't think a Second World War weapon would be in use anymore. I thought it more likely that any version of the weapon being utilized nowadays would be the modern variant, especially by a high-tech organization like the SWA.


Hmmm, your right.

@Nachtsider wrote:I suddenly realized that I forgot to take people like Frederick into consideration. Then again, he probably doesn't count in this case. Razz

True, especially because we are talking about Canon, not fanon in this case Razz
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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 10 Mar 2009 - 22:32

@Tommygunner70 wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:Well, Tommy, I just didn't think a Second World War weapon would be in use anymore. I thought it more likely that any version of the weapon being utilized nowadays would be the modern variant, especially by a high-tech organization like the SWA.


Hmmm, your right.

@Nachtsider wrote:I suddenly realized that I forgot to take people like Frederick into consideration. Then again, he probably doesn't count in this case. Razz

True, especially because we are talking about Canon, not fanon in this case Razz
Actually, if you think like about it... only those who can afford it will be having the super guns. Everyone else, includng the criminals, will be using what ever they can get their hands on, even if they should be muesum pieces (like a Muaser 1890).

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 10 Mar 2009 - 22:38

@ElfenMagix wrote:Actually, if you think like about it... only those who can afford it will be having the super guns. Everyone else, including the criminals, will be using what ever they can get their hands on, even if they should be museum pieces (like a Mauser 1890).

The criminals should be able to get their hands on "recent vintage" weapons.

Plus the SWA has money so a Rheinmetall MG3 would not be a burden for them. And BR7 level armor would easily stop the 7.62x51mm NATO rounds, even if they were AP. Doubly-so if Rico's was the Beretta-built model converted to fire 5.56 NATO.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 10 Mar 2009 - 23:43

@Nachtsider wrote:Make a demotivator of that, Kisk. You MUST.



Last edited by Kiskaloo on Sun 27 Feb 2011 - 15:25; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Piero on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 2:34

Do any of you ever get the impression that .500 S&W exists primarily to just be bigger than everything else?

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Awinnell on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 7:54


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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by LoC978 on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 8:23

@Piero wrote:Do any of you ever get the impression that .500 S&W exists primarily to just be bigger than everything else?
no. that's .600 Nitro Express' job.

...until someone makes a .700 NE handgun, anyway. Razz

oh yeah, there was actually one guy who managed to hold onto the thing...

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Tommygunner70 on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 9:52

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:Make a demotivator of that, Kisk. You MUST.


That's my reaction about the Desert Eagle and its .50 Action Express round Razz
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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 10:26

Since the SWA is in Italy, I use the European standards for body and vehicle armor in my stories:

EN 1063 Vehicle Armor Levels

CEN prEN ISO 14876 Body Armour Standards

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 10:50





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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Awinnell on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 11:37


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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Tommygunner70 on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 12:39

@Kiskaloo wrote:


Holy shit!

that just has to be photo shopped...

I mean, there is no way in hell that a normal human would be able to keep this beast under control.

It will either break your wrist or throw you on your ass if you fired it.

still, an interesting consept, but a 3 round revolve? why didn't they just increase the size of the Revolve to allow 6 rounds?

If I am ever going to get a large caliber revolver, I'd at least want it to be a six shooter.
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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by LoC978 on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 16:10

even most .500 S&W's are only five shots...

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by boomer_gonz on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 16:33

@ElfenMagix wrote:Actually, if you think like about it... only those who can afford it will be having the super guns. Everyone else, includng the criminals, will be using what ever they can get their hands on, even if they should be muesum pieces (like a Muaser 1890).

Flintlock rifles!!

LOLZ

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Piero on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 16:37

@Kiskaloo wrote:


Compensating much? Laughing

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 17:00

I probably should have used the caption: The word "subtle" isn't in our vocabulary.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 21:46

Damn! A lot more than just somebody's feelings are going to get hurt with these things!

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by LoC978 on Wed 11 Mar 2009 - 21:49

to include the firer. Ouch!

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by boomer_gonz on Thu 12 Mar 2009 - 2:50

Getting smacked in the face by a .600 NE is one thing, but THAT?

I mean...damn.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by zarien85 on Tue 7 Sep 2010 - 21:36

my thoughts exactly

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Odon on Sun 27 Feb 2011 - 4:54

I remember reading that GSG-9 has some fast Mercedes cars, and there was a note saying that they weren't armoured as speed was more important (due to those autobahns presumably). Armour is more useful for someone worried about being ambushed unexpectedly (e.g. terrorist targets like the Croce brother's parents).

Presumably the Ferrari driven by Bruno and his pal was armoured because it was carrying around bodies; if it ever got stopped by a Carabinieri roadblock they'd have to bust through (hence the armour) and get as far as possible (hence the fast car) before ditching the Ferrari and legging it (not sure how the combination of heavy armoured body and racing engine would work in practise). As for the shootout outside Cristiano's mansion, I think that was just a combination of poor animation and Did Not Do The Research...I've been hanging around TV Tropes too long if I'm writing those words in capitals!

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 28 Feb 2011 - 2:07

@Odon wrote:Presumably the Ferrari driven by Bruno and his pal was armoured because it was carrying around bodies; if it ever got stopped by a Carabinieri roadblock they'd have to bust through (hence the armour) and get as far as possible (hence the fast car) before ditching the Ferrari and legging it (not sure how the combination of heavy armoured body and racing engine would work in practise). As for the shootout outside Cristiano's mansion, I think that was just a combination of poor animation and Did Not Do The Research...I've been hanging around TV Tropes too long if I'm writing those words in capitals!
This is where horsepower to weight ratios fail. Despite the racing engine, it would take time for the car to build up speed. So such a bullet proof car would be up there with a typical road sedan like an old Cadillac, and it wont be able to take turns as well either.

If Bruno has to crash the Ferrari through a road block, he would have to be already up to speed to do it. Stopping and then going would not have enough force to do it.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 28 Feb 2011 - 2:23

Bruno had a Ferrari 456 (like Michele's original when he joined the Agency) which was good for 436 horsepower, so even with armor, it still would scoot.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Alfisti on Mon 28 Feb 2011 - 3:53

@ElfenMagix wrote:This is where horsepower to weight ratios fail. Despite the racing engine, it would take time for the car to build up speed. So such a bullet proof car would be up there with a typical road sedan like an old Cadillac, and it wont be able to take turns as well either.
Not to mention that race engines are often peaky, high-revving little things. What you want for moving heavy stuff is lots of torque.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 28 Feb 2011 - 5:11

@Alfisti wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:This is where horsepower to weight ratios fail. Despite the racing engine, it would take time for the car to build up speed. So such a bullet proof car would be up there with a typical road sedan like an old Cadillac, and it wont be able to take turns as well either.
Not to mention that race engines are often peaky, high-revving little things. What you want for moving heavy stuff is lots of torque.

And for that I recommend the Diesel Power of the Volkswagen line.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Professor Voodoo on Mon 28 Feb 2011 - 5:52

@Alfisti wrote: Not to mention that race engines are often peaky, high-revving little things. What you want for moving heavy stuff is lots of torque.
If you were going to the trouble & expense of armouring a car like a 456 it would be relatively easy to rework the engine for a broader torque curve.

  • Replace the camshafts with some having less lift & possibly more duration. This will cut overall airflow but allow for higher air velocity at lower revs due to venturi effect.
  • Bigger radiators would be a good idea. The engine is working hard to move all that extra weight, but with less airflow to the radiators (due to lower speeds).
  • Narrower diameter exhaust pipes would maintain more back pressure on the exhaust valves.
  • Give it a heavier flywheel & harmonic balancer, it will help provide smoother power at lower revs & also maintain engine vacuum.

The modern formula for horsepower is Torque X RPM divided by 5252. That's why an F1 engine can generate a spectacular horsepower number (by virtue of its 18,000 rev ceiling) in spite of a modest torque number while the 7.3L turbo diesel in my van churns out 515 ft.lbs of torque yet only has about 200 horsepower.


Last edited by Professor Voodoo on Thu 3 Mar 2011 - 16:20; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by Awinnell on Thu 3 Mar 2011 - 15:51



Here’s the auto news about remote control window tint, a glass making design breakthrough. Pimp your ride in a big way by having your car windows custom made — and P.S. Yes, the glass used is bullet proof.

http://celebrityauto.wordpress.com/2010/01/19/bullet-proof-tintable-glass-2009/




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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by John_234 on Wed 27 Jun 2012 - 5:53

In reality a 5.7x28mm wouldn't be the greatest round to fire at anything but soft body armor. Even standard glass could cause the bullets to fragment - they're about the same weight as a .22 LR. They'd probably not penetrate anything rated for handgun rounds.

And believe it or not, the S&W .500 would probably have a hard time too. Most pistol glass can take a slug or two from a shotgun before giving out. The other effect of bullet-resistant glass is that it alters the trajectory of the bullet, so a successful hit might miss the passengers completely.

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Re: Bullet-proof car in SWA

Post by John_234 on Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 20:50

Sorry to doublepost + necropost, but I came back to this thread after watching a few movies with a lot of vehicular action and firearms. Gone in Sixty Seconds (original), Bullit, Ronin and so forth.

It's amazing how much difference a misconception can make to how you enjoy and judge a piece of work. Like when I saw the opening chase sequence in Quantum of Solace in the movie theater, I was just going "aww... they really nerfed everything the Aston had."

I watched a few times, because it's still an extremely fun chase, and it became obvious that I was simply mistaken. The DBS is very much armored. Just in a realistic manner, versus the Vanquish in Die Another Day, or the BMW in Tomorrow Never Dies having bullets simply glance off in a shower of metal sparks.

When I actually paid attention, it wasn't that the bullets were simply passing through the glass in the rear of the DBS and showering Bond with shrapnel. The G36C's automatic fire didn't do squat to Bond, simply cracking the rear windshield. It was gunfire being aimed at the gap left by the door with the SAW that tore up the interior.

So, yeah. Gunfire generally does nasty things to vehicles. Its not horribly realistic for bullets just to bounce off like that, especially since CFRP is very bad at blocking bullets - it's designed to dissipate impacts while being lightweight. It simply has holes poked it in it by bullets. I think it was just a really simple way to say their research was used for other applications, even if using CFRP to stop bullets is an unrealistic example. Some polymers are very good at stopping bullets, though.


Bulletproof glass doesn't make the bullet bounce off. Most bulletproof glass is either a harder layer of glass with a softer layer behind it, like a ceramic plate in conjunction with a spall liner. The outside shatters, but due to its hardness also fragments the bullet, which is caught by the inner layers of glass, or in the case of body armor the spall liner built into the plate or the kevlar in your vest. So, the cosmetic damaging of the glass is part of how the armor works.

The rest of the vehicle, from my understanding is usually dependent on on steel panels surrounding the cabin and kevlar lining to catch shrapnel. Your vehicle skin generally isn't altered, so bullets would still punch right through the outer skin until it was stopped by the hidden armor panels.

Another consideration is that in the private security world, you have to save weight so the vehicle can still run away from a contact. There's no armor for the the driveshaft and undercarriage unless you specify mine resistance. If you don't specify it, you generally leave it out - like for use by executives in a pretty first world nation. But nearly always, there's no armor for the engine block because you're relying on saving the passengers so they can escape an ambush. You can still rake the radiator with gunfire, leak all the fluid and roll it to a stop, or just whack the engine itself with something nasty.

During the Edinburg RISK ambush, their only armored vehicle in a three-car convoy was disabled because it took a hit to the transmission from a machine gun. That said, it did its job - it was the only vehicle without casualties. Its just, an armored vehicle can't just shake off rounds like we see in GSG.

Sorry for the long winded explanation / rant.

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