Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 15:49

rshackleford wrote:
You're really suggesting that a RPG does less collateral damage than a 50 cal? Gee, what to use on a crowded Italian street against an armored target, a weapon that is precise and clean, or a weapon that has a kill radius of 20 meters? And if the girls are accurate enough to hit a target with the first shot, which they are, then there really is little risk for collateral damage.
I think .50 rifle is more suitable for sniper shooting on long range out of city. It needed prepared position, time for targeting. Sniper rifle having more 12 Kg and 1.5 m is not suitable for short close combat on the streets. .50 don't guarantire 100% defeat of venhcicles with one shot. Grenade launcer does. My sentence about RPG-18 is joke. But 40 mm underbarrel grenade launcer like GP-30 or M203, or light grenade launcer like GM-94 or M79 is good enough. They have enough power and more compact then .50 rifle.
.50 is the best only for shooting on long range with high accuracy, IMHO.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 15:54

LoC978 wrote:...he's smarter than that, I'd think.

I wonder, honestly.

He told Rico to kill anyone who saw her in Chapter 2. Emilio was just the only person unlucky enough to see her.

And he told the girls to not bother trying to save the hostages in Venice (one who is supposedly the bloody PRIME MINISTER) because they needed to focus on killing the terrorists, even though Minister Petris and Director Lorenzo gave orders to rescue them.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by LoC978 on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 16:00

[quote="kamajii"]
rshackleford wrote: .50 don't guarantire 100% defeat of venhcicles with one shot. Grenade launcer does.
...
But 40 mm underbarrel grenade launcer like GP-30 or M203, or light grenade launcer like GM-94 or M79 is good enough. They have enough power and more compact then .50 rifle.
.50 is the best only for shooting on long range with high accuracy, IMHO.
actually... a 40mm grenade is not a guaranteed kill shot on even a civilian truck. A .50 BMG round will most likely pierce an engine block with a well-placed shot, a 40mm grenade's best chance at disabling a vehicle is by killing the driver and passengers (or flipping it over, if its small enough).
But neither is terribly effective as anti-vehicle ammunition (unless used en masse, such as in the case of the Browning M2 machine gun or Mk19 grenade machine gun).

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by LoC978 on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 16:03

Kiskaloo wrote:
LoC978 wrote:...he's smarter than that, I'd think.

I wonder, honestly.

He told Rico to kill anyone who saw her in Chapter 2. Emilio was just the only person unlucky enough to see her.

And he told the girls to not bother trying to save the hostages in Venice (one who is supposedly the bloody PRIME MINISTER) because they needed to focus on killing the terrorists, even though Minister Petris and Director Lorenzo gave orders to rescue them.
both of those are a little different from utilizing large explosive weaponry in front of hundreds if not thousands of witnesses... but I see your point.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 16:10

He'd just blame it on Franco and Franca.

Oh, wait... sweat

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 19:29

[quote="LoC978"]
kamajii wrote:
rshackleford wrote: .50 don't guarantire 100% defeat of venhcicles with one shot. Grenade launcer does.
...
But 40 mm underbarrel grenade launcer like GP-30 or M203, or light grenade launcer like GM-94 or M79 is good enough. They have enough power and more compact then .50 rifle.
.50 is the best only for shooting on long range with high accuracy, IMHO.
actually... a 40mm grenade is not a guaranteed kill shot on even a civilian truck. A .50 BMG round will most likely pierce an engine block with a well-placed shot, a 40mm grenade's best chance at disabling a vehicle is by killing the driver and passengers (or flipping it over, if its small enough).
But neither is terribly effective as anti-vehicle ammunition (unless used en masse, such as in the case of the Browning M2 machine gun or Mk19 grenade machine gun).

Don't understand why you chaps think so highly of the .05 BMG round. Granted it retains a lot of the kinetic energy over long distances and is used for those 2000yard stunners, but it spends too long in flight because of its weight and that makes it very susceptible to wind, target moving etc. There are other kinds of ammo out there like the .408 (that one's supposed to be able to do 3000yard miracles) or .338 Lapua.

But the .50BMG can still be used to take out vehicles. Just shoot a few rounds at the engine or tyres snipe . Better yet, use HEIAP small arms ammo Nuke

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by LoC978 on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 19:56

as I said.
neither is terribly effective as anti-vehicle ammunition (unless used en masse, such as in the case of the Browning M2 machine gun or Mk19 grenade machine gun).
a single .50BMG will only stop a car/truck/SUV with a very well-placed shot. in the case of most military vehicles, it's next to useless (except en masse, of course).

...and why go smaller for anti-vehicle rounds when you can go bigger?



...gotta admit I like that .338 for antipersonnel applications, though.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 20:03

LoC978 wrote:as I said.
neither is terribly effective as anti-vehicle ammunition (unless used en masse, such as in the case of the Browning M2 machine gun or Mk19 grenade machine gun).
a single .50BMG will only stop a car/truck/SUV with a very well-placed shot. in the case of most military vehicles, it's next to useless (except en masse, of course).

Actually I was addressing more of the strange idea that the .50 is accurate, long-range and powerful. Ok, powerful is a given, and long range usually comes with that but accurate ... Puzzled not really. Must be those damned computer games putting strange ideas in people's heads

I think we already have something that can stop a car. It's called Rico. She uses an MG3 and we've seen it stop vehicles at least once

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by LoC978 on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 20:10

Well, the .50BMG can be accurate... not at the sort of ranges you're suggesting, but even a 1000m shot on a human silhouette is still an accomplishment (considering the maximum point-target range on the 5.56NATO is only 550m).
Also, I'm not talking about the same ammo you feed into a Ma Deuce in belts. Match-grade .50BMG is out there, and tends to easily maintain accuracy and trajectory up to 1000m (1500 on a windless day).

...and considering the girls tend to fight in urban terrain, I really don't think we'll ever see Rico need to reach out and touch someone at even 1000m, much less 2-3000.

we already have something that can stop a car. It's called Rico. She uses an MG3 and we've seen it stop vehicles at least once
-very true. any machine gun 30-cal and up can stop a car. when one bullet won't do, give 'em "the whole nine yards" (see the definition from WWII)

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 20:24

In my OC fiction,.300 Winchester or .338 Lapua Magnum is what the SWA uses for sniping at any distance.

.50 BMG would only be for an anti-material mission.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by tsundere9kagami2 on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 20:43

Anti cyborg rifle?

anti cyborg grenade launcher..shoots out spikey jellyfish poison devices! to cause pain so the cyborgs cant focus!

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by LoC978 on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 20:49

better yet...

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by tsundere9kagami2 on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 0:31

lols @ seaking

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by hydra282 on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 1:14

Seazirra!!

fun fact: Seaking doesn't live in the sea, he's a goldfish.
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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by West Nile on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 22:45

lol can only happen in japan!

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by commanderagl on Sat 11 Jul 2009 - 18:52

TAC-50 or M107 for big hitters at long range, standard, arctic warfare sniper rifle, or the M40. (cant think of some others at the moment but there are a couple excellent semis).
for rarity you could have the WA2000

176 units were produced, only 15 were exported to the U.S., 11 of which are owned by Earl J. Sheehan Jr., President of Walther USA. Due to its rarity the WA 2000 can be worth over $75,000 to $80,000 in the open market. (wikipedia)
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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Sat 11 Jul 2009 - 19:06

commanderagl wrote:TAC-50 or M107 for big hitters at long range, standard, arctic warfare sniper rifle, or the M40. (cant think of some others at the moment but there are a couple excellent semis).
for rarity you could have the WA2000

176 units were produced, only 15 were exported to the U.S., 11 of which are owned by Earl J. Sheehan Jr., President of Walther USA. Due to its rarity the WA 2000 can be worth over $75,000 to $80,000 in the open market. (wikipedia)

WA2000? Henrietta's already playing with that one in the anime at least. As for the more conventional sniper rifles, there are loads of them for different purposes. The Macmillian TAC50 and M107 you mentioned are primarily used for anti-material roles because of their .50BMG round. Range-wise there's the CheyTac Intervention. Never tried it before but looking at the supposed trajectory and data of the bullet, I think it has the potential to hit at 3000yards.

In Rico's case she just needs to hit at less than 400yards, bearing in mind that they're fighting in an urban setting so the SVD is quite enough. Plus it's cheap Very Happy

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 11 Jul 2009 - 19:30

rshackleford wrote:For urban sharpshooters, anything larger than a 7.62 is overkill.

Yu could potentially write a story arc about some kind of long range assassination out in the Italian countryside or something.... AWESOME. Then the girls can break out the serious hardware.

The longest range sniper shots I have done in OC fiction is 800m by Amadeo with the Sako TRG-42 firing .308 Lapua Magnum which was in "open" countryside. Michele used the WA 2000 with .300 Whisper cartridges out to around 150-200m in the same mission on the grounds of a converted farmhouse.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by LoC978 on Sat 11 Jul 2009 - 19:54

MikhailN wrote:In Rico's case she just needs to hit at less than 400yards, bearing in mind that they're fighting in an urban setting so the SVD is quite enough. Plus it's cheap Very Happy
truth.
the only problem I could see with the SVD is over-penetration when you're after a clean kill.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 12 Jul 2009 - 19:03

Well if you're going to do it, you might as well do it right.

The world's greatest sniper rifle - the CheyTac Intervention - firing the world's greatest sniper round - the .408 Chey Tac.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Sun 12 Jul 2009 - 19:09

Kiskaloo wrote:Well if you're going to do it, you might as well do it right.

The world's greatest sniper rifle - the CheyTac Intervention - firing the world's greatest sniper round - the .408 Chey Tac.

LOL that one's full of win. Serious. It's a fairly new sniper rifle and I haven't tried it before. The bullet data that's published makes it look like it can do a kill shot at 3000yards snipe . Very nice

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 12 Jul 2009 - 19:15

I happened to just be watching The Military Channel show on history's greatest sniper weapons and they ranked this one as the best ever.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by tsundere9kagami2 on Sun 12 Jul 2009 - 19:29

Laser rifle......just putting it out there haveing a darn airplane with a laser ...

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Sun 12 Jul 2009 - 19:36

Kiskaloo wrote:I happened to just be watching The Military Channel show on history's greatest sniper weapons and they ranked this one as the best ever.

Like I like to say, this kind of thing's quite subjective. You can talk for ages about accuracy, anti-material roles, compactness and stuff. The CheyTac's too long for built up areas and the bolt action makes engaging multiple targets difficult

Anyway to be fair to the CheyTac, its idea's very interesting. The ballistics are a big improvement over the thinking that only the .50BMG can do the long distance shots

PS: There's no "world record" for accuracy because it's questionable. The DSR1 claims to be able to do 0.2MOA at 100yards but so far normal humans have been able to do 0.3MOA. Anyway the gun they put for the CheyTac's file is the AI Arctic Warfare. What a mistake cheers

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 12 Jul 2009 - 19:49

MikhailN wrote:Like I like to say, this kind of thing's quite subjective. You can talk for ages about accuracy, anti-material roles, compactness and stuff. The CheyTac's too long for built up areas and the bolt action makes engaging multiple targets difficult.

Well clearly you are not going to use a high-velocity, large-caliber round in a built-up area. That is what 7.62x51mm NATO is for. Wink

And semi-auto sniper/anti-material rifles like the M107 are designed to put five rounds in quick succession into the target area with the hope that at least one of them will hit.

The CTI is designed for those "pre-planned" kills in rural and rugged areas where you need to hike into the target area, set up very early (before your target's security forces arrive and secure the location against later entry), engage at such a distance those security forces cannot detect your location, and then successfully egress.

Which I admit is an unlikely mission for Special Operations, Section 2 so chances are they don't have one. Razz

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 13:15

OK, CheyTac is cool, powerfool, longranged... But...
How many cheytac's was produced? How many SVD was produced?
I you kill a famous politic or mafioso, you need weapon that couldn't be calculated (founded).
And so, how many cheytac costs?

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 13:17

The CheyTac? Unknown? Hell, that thing was all over the movie 'Sniper'. It was Bob Swagger's personal weapon.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 13:35

Well only Poland and Turkey use them professionally, so that would probably confuse the heck out of the Italian CSI folks.

It's why Kara and Michele shoot .40S&W - CSI always mutters about "those damn Americans" coming over and shooting up their populace. Laughing

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 13:43

Nachtsider wrote:The CheyTac? Unknown? Hell, that thing was all over the movie 'Sniper'. It was Bob Swagger's personal weapon.
You don't understand. I think when you kill a person, who's killer must be founded in any ways, you need such weapon, that can't point to you. The hardly indentified weapon. The common used military or common used civilan weapon is the best choice.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 13:45

That doesn't make for good drama. Razz

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Awinnell on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 14:12

and ,as has already been pointed out to me, the SWA is a government dept,and the government controls the media and police, plus the SWA doesn't generally leave bodies lying around to be found, they employ their own clean up crew

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 14:50

Awinnell wrote:and ,as has already been pointed out to me, the SWA is a government dept,and the government controls the media and police, plus the SWA doesn't generally leave bodies lying around to be found, they employ their own clean up crew
FINALLY SOMEBODY UNDERSTANDS THE EQUATION!!!

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by commanderagl on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 16:07

True, an SVD would make it look like the target was assassinated by anyone because of its availability, the Barret and Tac-50s would probably point to an american just cuz of the difficulty of civilians acquiring them in europe, and SVD is much more plausible for an assasin
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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 18:06

Personally, I think making the evidence point to an American would be an excellent way for the SWA to throw people off the scent.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 19:19

Nachtsider wrote:Personally, I think making the evidence point to an American would be an excellent way for the SWA to throw people off the scent.
I think that would sound strange. I mean, a bunch of cowboys flew over here, opened a shooting gallery and went back. Makes Italy sound like a hunting ground for Yankees. What next? Open season?

IMHO they say that rival factions of the Mafia are fighting again. They're getting guns stolen from around the world in a bid to outdo their rivals in the arms race. If you ask me, Dante's winning.

Awinnell wrote:and ,as has already been pointed out to me, the SWA
is a government dept,and the government controls the media and police,
plus the SWA doesn't generally leave bodies lying around to be found,
they employ their own clean up crew

Exactly. Though why they bother to clean up I don't know. Control the media, control the mind

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 23:18

Perhaps Lorenzo has OCD and has that whole clean-freak thing going on.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 23:22

Well, the PM only owns two-thirds of the media, so...

Also, when you have Henrietta in berzerker mode empty a few cases of ammunition into a room, the neighbors tend to notice. In my OC universe, they had to set an arson charge in the apartment she attacked in Chapter 1 / Episode 1 and say it was a "gas leak explosion" because they were never going to be able to hide all the bullet holes.

...ugh.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Awinnell on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 7:17

as i pointed out,in another thread, her P90 is an unusual weapon anyway,i think its limited to military sales in most of the world,at least the select fire version is

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 8:19

Awinnell wrote:as i pointed out,in another thread, her P90 is an unusual weapon anyway,i think its limited to military sales in most of the world,at least the select fire version is

It is used in Italy. The GIS uses it in limited quantities. I think that's where they get their stuff

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Awinnell on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 8:22

MikhailN wrote:
Awinnell wrote:as i pointed out,in another thread, her P90 is an unusual weapon anyway,i think its limited to military sales in most of the world,at least the select fire version is

It is used in Italy. The GIS uses it in limited quantities. I think that's where they get their stuff

which would be a military sale,so it would instantly lead back to the government

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 8:59

Suddenly I'm wondering, regarding Etta's P90: why would the government need to hide the fact that they're eliminating criminals? Isn't that what governments do?

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Awinnell on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 9:16

no, governments arrest criminals and punish them through the Judicial system,what the SWA does violates both EU law and the Italian constitution,even terrorists get trials,unless they are killed whilst carrying out a terrorist act,there was some outcry in 1988 when three members of the IRA were shot and killed in Gibraltar,none of them were armed at the time,but they had planted a bomb on the island that had to be destroyed by controlled detonation.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 9:46

B-but all those gangsters who get killed in SWAT raids on crack houses...

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 9:46

Awinnell wrote:no, governments arrest criminals and punish them through the Judicial system,what the SWA does violates both EU law and the Italian constitution,even terrorists get trials,unless they are killed whilst carrying out a terrorist act,there was some outcry in 1988 when three members of the IRA were shot and killed in Gibraltar,none of them were armed at the time,but they had planted a bomb on the island that had to be destroyed by controlled detonation.

That's one of the problems with governments like Italy. Yes there are laws in place and they differ from country to country but generally the use of deadly force is a HUGE issue. Concerning the case you mentioned, the 3 IRA (McCann, Savage and Farrell) were found to be unarmed so it looks like the guys who shot them were shooting at innocent people. In Britain the SAS ran into a similar problem when a bunch ran into IRA who fired on them, dropped their weapons and ran. Naturally the SAS shot and killed them, but they were tried for murder because the terrorists were unarmed and hence, should be subdued instead of killed.

From what I've heard, use of deadly force by personnel should be a last resort when options like unarmed combat are not an option. The idea is to prevent what the (ignorant) civilians call "irresponsible cowboys" and "vigilante justice" from occuring by armed forces in peacetime but it leads to stupidity. If you burst into a room and you find a guy holding a gun, you're not supposed to shoot unless he points it at you Guh? . Instead you're supposed to subdue him and let the court decide if he should die or not. Puzzled

Bottom line: The SWA going around shooting terrorists is illegal and by the looks of things, if the public get wind of this, all the adults will either be languishing in jail or hanging by the neck. Hillshire's interesting. He'll be deported back to Germany where he'll be charged there.

Nachtsider wrote:B-but all those gangsters who get killed in SWAT raids on crack houses...

In that case, the decision is entirely up to the officer who opened fire. First thing: Was the guy holding a gun? If yes, then you need to demand compliance by asking him nicely to put his hands up. If he points the gun at you, you shoot. What actually goes on over there usually can be pieced through forensic evidence (yes, if there is too much violence used, forensics can be called in to charge the officer in court). That's strictly speaking. Realistically speaking I think as long as you see guns in the guy's hands you just shoot at him


Last edited by MikhailN on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 9:51; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Awinnell on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 9:51

Nachtsider wrote:B-but all those gangsters who get killed in SWAT raids on crack houses...

well if they are armed and resisting arrest its a different matter

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 10:02

MikhailN wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:Personally, I think making the evidence point to an American would be an excellent way for the SWA to throw people off the scent.
I think that would sound strange. I mean, a bunch of cowboys flew over here, opened a shooting gallery and went back. Makes Italy sound like a hunting ground for Yankees. What next? Open season?

IMHO they say that rival factions of the Mafia are fighting again. They're getting guns stolen from around the world in a bid to outdo their rivals in the arms race. If you ask me, Dante's winning.

Awinnell wrote:and ,as has already been pointed out to me, the SWA
is a government dept,and the government controls the media and police,
plus the SWA doesn't generally leave bodies lying around to be found,
they employ their own clean up crew

Exactly. Though why they bother to clean up I don't know. Control the media, control the mind
Italy does not control the media totally, just the main streams thereof. All others are labelled as Tabloid News. With Paparazzi and teens with cellphone cameras wanting to make a quick buck for pictures they capture- such places become a flood of none-sense news. On page 3 could be a picture of Angie taking on a bullet proof Ferrari, and on page 4 is a picture of 'Jesus Christ on a skyscraper's window pane!' In the least, maybe 5% of the Italian population (like the US Population) reads the tabloids. In the least, the government agencies also read them to see where they may have goofed, got caught, or get information that they would have otherwise not have gotten by normal means... So they are allowed to exist.


Awinnell wrote:no, governments arrest criminals and punish them through the Judicial system,what the SWA does violates both EU law and the Italian constitution,even terrorists get trials,unless they are killed whilst carrying out a terrorist act,there was some outcry in 1988 when three members of the IRA were shot and killed in Gibraltar,none of them were armed at the time,but they had planted a bomb on the island that had to be destroyed by controlled detonation.
This is only if such criminals operation within a juridiction where they could be caught by normal means. Organizations like Al Quida, The Triads, and most Mafias, the Japanese Yacusa, and many others- operate above that. They take resources to make their operations as covertly as possible, and then an arrest is to come- they fight back because to them death is better than rotting in jail. This is where the SWA operattes; they do make arrests, but for the most part, the criminals would prefer to fight, and die fighting.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 11:27

There is such a thing as "sanction" - where a government gives tacit authority to allow someone to kill.

Public Safety and Special Operations seem to me to be more "private armies" run by the Minister of Defense at the behest of the Prime Minister and answerable only to him.

So if the truth ever gets out that the Prime Minister has his own private army - and has been using it not just to kill terrorists, but also fellow politicians who get in his way, well it's going to get ugly...

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Awinnell on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 11:53

not all terrorists would rather die fighting than rot in jail,it depends on the society they grew up in,whilst the people blowing up the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq may think and act that way,the surviving members of the London 7/7 bombers were all arrested fairly easily,they may not like their countries society, but it has affected their world view so that it takes a lot of brainwashing/fanatacism to carry out a suicide attack

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 14:10

ElfenMagix wrote:
Awinnell wrote:and ,as has already been pointed
out to me, the SWA is a government dept,and the government controls the
media and police, plus the SWA doesn't generally leave bodies lying
around to be found, they employ their own clean up crew
FINALLY SOMEBODY UNDERSTANDS THE EQUATION!!!
It's very strange for me, that things to read. I read and listen for decades about "fredom of speech", "democracy", "transparence of state" etc. in western society. How you can write same terrible things?! I think, that I lived in "prison of nations USSR under total control of KGB"!
...
:lol!:

I think that any state try to obtain maximum control of citizens, of course.
But govenment and state isn't monolithic. Many groups fight for power.
And killed criminal may be an allied or satelite of one of the such groups.
You must count on power of organized criminality too. They have resources and peoples to investigate and to take revenge.
So if SWA want to kill their enemies, they couldn't right to mistake and have been traced.
Nobody of them may not to make a mistake.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Awinnell on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 14:16

lol ! this is in the GSG universe,Italy is not really like this !

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 14:21

Nachtsider wrote:B-but all those gangsters who get killed in SWAT raids on crack houses...
SWAT has a warrant, usually. All actions of SWAT, killing in firstly, would be investigated by superior services and can be appealed in law-court. And... SWAT shout aloud: "Drop your weapon! And put your hands above you head" Smile
I don't remeber that Etta or Triella say same things. Smile

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 14:33

Awinnell wrote:lol ! this is in the GSG universe,Italy is not really like this !

While GSG is indeed a fictional tale, it does draw on contemporary Italian history.

The current Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, is a media mogul who controls major Italian television and newspaper companies. He also has major control of the banking and insurance industries and is incredibly wealthy. He was also PM when Yu Aida started writing GSG and I am positive the GSG PM is based on Berlusconi.

Organized crime controls much of southern Italy. And I'm not just talking businesses and government services, but the actual government through financing their election into office. And, of course, GSG's Padania is based on the actual Lega Nord (North League for the Independence of Padania) political party, which at one time sought the independence of Northern Italy from the rest of the Republic and now works for a more federal form of government (something like the Five Republics Faction in GSG is fighting for, though not as extreme).

And then there were the "Years of Lead" where right-wing groups supported and sponsored by NATO (Operation Gladius) and other Western governments worked to blunt the power of the trade and labor unions - often in a violent form - which favored taking Italy in a communist/socialist direction and the groups like the Red Brigade who fought against them. Yu Aida calls this new right-wing offensive against Padania and the Five Republics "The Years of Blue" (see the BBC World News documentary running in the background of Chapter 58).

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 14:48

Awinnell wrote:lol ! this is in the GSG universe,Italy is not really like this !
You think so really? Premier minister of Italy was charged of relations with mafia. In 80's P2 Lodge was disclosed in Italy.
"Death squadrons" in Spain...

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 15:35

Although the fictional universe of Gunslinger Girl has copied certain elements from the real world history of Italy, it is not either of the same thing. GsG is not currently running in Italy, there are no Italian cyborgs killing wanted criminals, and most importantly- little girls are not taken from their hospital beds and taken to secret enclaves where they undergo the process of cybernetication (being turned into cybernetic beings- aka/ie: Cyborgs). None of this is happening in real life.

Now what history has to say about the real Italy, I personally dont give a rat's ass about, because I am not interested in their politics or world status. I am only interested in the Gunslinger Girl Fictional Stories by Yu Aida, and the Fan Fiction materials created by us/the fans.

May the lines of Fiction and Reality never cross. If you allow that to happen 1) you really dont have a life and 2) what life you do have is not worth living. As Michio Kaku would say to his students- "Grow Up! Get A Girl Friend! Go Make Babies!" He also said, "Stop walking on your knuckles! Evolve, will ya!!!"

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 15:37

I draw on Italian history to help explain the GSG universe in my OC fiction, which is why it is of interest to me.

I am of the opinion Yu does the same for his manga, as it seems too much to be just mere coincidence.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 15:45

I understand where you are going, Kiskaloo. But the members making connections that are meant to be parallel to the real world is a mistake in my view. I swear- how did we get from how the SWA operates to the gulags of the old Soviet Russia, is beyond me.

Sure, they make for a nice back drop in a fictional story. But lets not cross Fiction with Reality and say that they are the same- for they are not. Thats my point.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 17:25

kamajii wrote:It's very strange for me, that things to read. I read
and listen for decades about "fredom of speech", "democracy",
"transparence of state" etc. in western society. How you can write same
terrible things?! I think, that I lived in "prison of nations USSR
under total control of KGB"!
...
:lol!:

I think that any state try to obtain maximum control of citizens, of course.
But govenment and state isn't monolithic. Many groups fight for power.
And killed criminal may be an allied or satelite of one of the such groups.
You must count on power of organized criminality too. They have resources and peoples to investigate and to take revenge.
So if SWA want to kill their enemies, they couldn't right to mistake and have been traced.
Nobody of them may not to make a mistake.

Real world politics is interesting. If you go into political science you'd find that there is no "true democracy" and I'm not talking about nonsense like election fraud. Even in democracies power isn't distributed evenly between opposition groups and government. The reality is that governments are spread across a spectrum with no power to the state on one end and complete power to the state on the other. It is interesting to note that there are no states at the extremes, save North Korea.

kamajii wrote:
Awinnell wrote:lol ! this is in the GSG universe,Italy is not really like this !
You think so really? Premier minister of Italy was charged of relations with mafia. In 80's P2 Lodge was disclosed in Italy.
"Death squadrons" in Spain...

I fear that we need to draw lines between fact and fiction. Gunslinger Girl universe is just that - fiction. There are "parallels" and "sources of inspiration" but at the end of the whole thing the SWA doesn't exist. No little girls are being turned into cyborgs and by the way, Italy doesn't have a developed field in robotics or anything related.

As for the events that you mentioned, there are two kinds of news reporting: factual and sensationalized. The distinctions aren't completely clear but intuition tells me that P2 lodge and death squads are a wee bit on the sensational side.

kamajii wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:B-but all those gangsters who get killed in SWAT raids on crack houses...
SWAT
has a warrant, usually. All actions of SWAT, killing in firstly, would
be investigated by superior services and can be appealed in law-court.
And... SWAT shout aloud: "Drop your weapon! And put your hands above
you head" Smile
I don't remeber that Etta or Triella say same things. Smile

I'm not too familiar with the American Rules of Engagement (RoE) but in some places the RoE can get quite stupid. Like I mentioned before, if someone shoots at me, throws down his gun and runs, RoE dictates that I cannot shoot him. Or if i see a bunch of guys floating down from the sky in parachutes, RoE states that they can shoot at me but I cannot shoot at them until they land. Idiocy.

By the way, SWAT can execute "no knock warrants" where they smash your door, identify themselves as members of the police department and execute a search. Very messy.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 17:54

MikhailN wrote:
I fear that we need to draw lines between fact and fiction. Gunslinger Girl universe is just that - fiction. There are "parallels" and "sources of inspiration" but at the end of the whole thing the SWA doesn't exist.

No little girls are being turned into cyborgs and by the way, Italy doesn't have a developed field in robotics or anything related.

Smile

But, AFAIK, Yu Aida have supporters that study Italian and Europen politics and society for creating more realistic pictures of world.

MikhailN wrote:
As for the events that you mentioned, there are two kinds of news reporting: factual and sensationalized. The distinctions aren't completely clear but intuition tells me that P2 lodge and death squads are a wee bit on the sensational side.

P2 Masonic lodge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due)

Spanish death squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupos_Antiterroristas_de_Liberaci%C3%B3n)

kamajii wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:B-but all those gangsters who get killed in SWAT raids on crack houses...
By the way, SWAT can execute "no knock warrants" where they smash your door, identify themselves as members of the police department and execute a search. Very messy.
But you can bring SWAT to the court, if you think they broke law. I don't know how it's in USA. But in ex-USSR OMON (SWAT equivalent) prefer do not shoot often, because it is high risk to be charged of extra-high violence.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 17:59

kamajii wrote:But, AFAIK, Yu Aida have supporters that study Italian and Europen politics and society for creating more realistic pictures of world.

A more realistic picture of a fictional world. Smile

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

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