Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 14:21

@Nachtsider wrote:B-but all those gangsters who get killed in SWAT raids on crack houses...
SWAT has a warrant, usually. All actions of SWAT, killing in firstly, would be investigated by superior services and can be appealed in law-court. And... SWAT shout aloud: "Drop your weapon! And put your hands above you head" Smile
I don't remeber that Etta or Triella say same things. Smile

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 14:33

@Awinnell wrote:lol ! this is in the GSG universe,Italy is not really like this !

While GSG is indeed a fictional tale, it does draw on contemporary Italian history.

The current Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, is a media mogul who controls major Italian television and newspaper companies. He also has major control of the banking and insurance industries and is incredibly wealthy. He was also PM when Yu Aida started writing GSG and I am positive the GSG PM is based on Berlusconi.

Organized crime controls much of southern Italy. And I'm not just talking businesses and government services, but the actual government through financing their election into office. And, of course, GSG's Padania is based on the actual Lega Nord (North League for the Independence of Padania) political party, which at one time sought the independence of Northern Italy from the rest of the Republic and now works for a more federal form of government (something like the Five Republics Faction in GSG is fighting for, though not as extreme).

And then there were the "Years of Lead" where right-wing groups supported and sponsored by NATO (Operation Gladius) and other Western governments worked to blunt the power of the trade and labor unions - often in a violent form - which favored taking Italy in a communist/socialist direction and the groups like the Red Brigade who fought against them. Yu Aida calls this new right-wing offensive against Padania and the Five Republics "The Years of Blue" (see the BBC World News documentary running in the background of Chapter 58).

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 14:48

@Awinnell wrote:lol ! this is in the GSG universe,Italy is not really like this !
You think so really? Premier minister of Italy was charged of relations with mafia. In 80's P2 Lodge was disclosed in Italy.
"Death squadrons" in Spain...

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 15:35

Although the fictional universe of Gunslinger Girl has copied certain elements from the real world history of Italy, it is not either of the same thing. GsG is not currently running in Italy, there are no Italian cyborgs killing wanted criminals, and most importantly- little girls are not taken from their hospital beds and taken to secret enclaves where they undergo the process of cybernetication (being turned into cybernetic beings- aka/ie: Cyborgs). None of this is happening in real life.

Now what history has to say about the real Italy, I personally dont give a rat's ass about, because I am not interested in their politics or world status. I am only interested in the Gunslinger Girl Fictional Stories by Yu Aida, and the Fan Fiction materials created by us/the fans.

May the lines of Fiction and Reality never cross. If you allow that to happen 1) you really dont have a life and 2) what life you do have is not worth living. As Michio Kaku would say to his students- "Grow Up! Get A Girl Friend! Go Make Babies!" He also said, "Stop walking on your knuckles! Evolve, will ya!!!"

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 15:37

I draw on Italian history to help explain the GSG universe in my OC fiction, which is why it is of interest to me.

I am of the opinion Yu does the same for his manga, as it seems too much to be just mere coincidence.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 15:45

I understand where you are going, Kiskaloo. But the members making connections that are meant to be parallel to the real world is a mistake in my view. I swear- how did we get from how the SWA operates to the gulags of the old Soviet Russia, is beyond me.

Sure, they make for a nice back drop in a fictional story. But lets not cross Fiction with Reality and say that they are the same- for they are not. Thats my point.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 17:25

@kamajii wrote:It's very strange for me, that things to read. I read
and listen for decades about "fredom of speech", "democracy",
"transparence of state" etc. in western society. How you can write same
terrible things?! I think, that I lived in "prison of nations USSR
under total control of KGB"!
...
:lol!:

I think that any state try to obtain maximum control of citizens, of course.
But govenment and state isn't monolithic. Many groups fight for power.
And killed criminal may be an allied or satelite of one of the such groups.
You must count on power of organized criminality too. They have resources and peoples to investigate and to take revenge.
So if SWA want to kill their enemies, they couldn't right to mistake and have been traced.
Nobody of them may not to make a mistake.

Real world politics is interesting. If you go into political science you'd find that there is no "true democracy" and I'm not talking about nonsense like election fraud. Even in democracies power isn't distributed evenly between opposition groups and government. The reality is that governments are spread across a spectrum with no power to the state on one end and complete power to the state on the other. It is interesting to note that there are no states at the extremes, save North Korea.

@kamajii wrote:
@Awinnell wrote:lol ! this is in the GSG universe,Italy is not really like this !
You think so really? Premier minister of Italy was charged of relations with mafia. In 80's P2 Lodge was disclosed in Italy.
"Death squadrons" in Spain...

I fear that we need to draw lines between fact and fiction. Gunslinger Girl universe is just that - fiction. There are "parallels" and "sources of inspiration" but at the end of the whole thing the SWA doesn't exist. No little girls are being turned into cyborgs and by the way, Italy doesn't have a developed field in robotics or anything related.

As for the events that you mentioned, there are two kinds of news reporting: factual and sensationalized. The distinctions aren't completely clear but intuition tells me that P2 lodge and death squads are a wee bit on the sensational side.

@kamajii wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:B-but all those gangsters who get killed in SWAT raids on crack houses...
SWAT
has a warrant, usually. All actions of SWAT, killing in firstly, would
be investigated by superior services and can be appealed in law-court.
And... SWAT shout aloud: "Drop your weapon! And put your hands above
you head" Smile
I don't remeber that Etta or Triella say same things. Smile

I'm not too familiar with the American Rules of Engagement (RoE) but in some places the RoE can get quite stupid. Like I mentioned before, if someone shoots at me, throws down his gun and runs, RoE dictates that I cannot shoot him. Or if i see a bunch of guys floating down from the sky in parachutes, RoE states that they can shoot at me but I cannot shoot at them until they land. Idiocy.

By the way, SWAT can execute "no knock warrants" where they smash your door, identify themselves as members of the police department and execute a search. Very messy.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 17:54

@MikhailN wrote:
I fear that we need to draw lines between fact and fiction. Gunslinger Girl universe is just that - fiction. There are "parallels" and "sources of inspiration" but at the end of the whole thing the SWA doesn't exist.

No little girls are being turned into cyborgs and by the way, Italy doesn't have a developed field in robotics or anything related.

Smile

But, AFAIK, Yu Aida have supporters that study Italian and Europen politics and society for creating more realistic pictures of world.

@MikhailN wrote:
As for the events that you mentioned, there are two kinds of news reporting: factual and sensationalized. The distinctions aren't completely clear but intuition tells me that P2 lodge and death squads are a wee bit on the sensational side.

P2 Masonic lodge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due)

Spanish death squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupos_Antiterroristas_de_Liberaci%C3%B3n)

@kamajii wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:B-but all those gangsters who get killed in SWAT raids on crack houses...
By the way, SWAT can execute "no knock warrants" where they smash your door, identify themselves as members of the police department and execute a search. Very messy.
But you can bring SWAT to the court, if you think they broke law. I don't know how it's in USA. But in ex-USSR OMON (SWAT equivalent) prefer do not shoot often, because it is high risk to be charged of extra-high violence.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 17:59

@kamajii wrote:But, AFAIK, Yu Aida have supporters that study Italian and Europen politics and society for creating more realistic pictures of world.

A more realistic picture of a fictional world. Smile

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 18:03

Is the USA in Luke Besson's "Leon" a fictional world?

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 18:04

@kamajii wrote:
Smile

But,
AFAIK, Yu Aida have supporters that study Italian and Europen politics
and society for creating more realistic pictures of world.

I think they try to weave the GSG story into real life so that people think that it could be happening if yo take one point of view but it's not

@kamajii wrote:P2 Masonic lodge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due)

Spanish death squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupos_Antiterroristas_de_Liberaci%C3%B3n)

Okay...

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 18:08

@kamajii wrote:Is the USA in Luke Besson's "Leon" a fictional world?

Are there corrupt cops? Yes Indeed

Are there contract killers? Yes Indeed

Are there hot young girls like Natalie Portman? Yes Indeed

Do the three come together on a regular basis in every major city in America and act according to the film? NO

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 18:27

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@kamajii wrote:Is the USA in Luke Besson's "Leon" a fictional world?

Are there corrupt cops? Yes Indeed

Are there contract killers? Yes Indeed

Are there hot young girls like Natalie Portman? Yes Indeed

Do the three come together on a regular basis in every major city in America and act according to the film? NO

Laughing What I'm seeing here is quite amusing.

I take it that Kamajii has never been to the US, so he bases his perceptions about USA on the closest his society can offer him about USA: bang head Hollywood bang head . Despite the fact that he knows that its primary purpose is entertainment, the movies begin to shape his perception of the US and it becomes reality. One effect would probably be that he has this misguided notion that all American girls are tall, slim, leggy etc when actually obesity is a major problem in the US. We base our perceptions about a society on our contact with it and that forms our "reality"

Hey, I think I just stumbled on a new theory :dance: . I'm going to call it Reality Construction

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 19:23

@kamajii wrote:But, AFAIK, Yu Aida have supporters that study Italian and Europen politics and society for creating more realistic pictures of world.
Come now. We don't even know if Yu Aida is a real person. Laughing

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 19:32

@Nachtsider wrote:
@kamajii wrote:But, AFAIK, Yu Aida have supporters that study Italian and Europen politics and society for creating more realistic pictures of world.
Come now. We don't even know if Yu Aida is a real person. Laughing

Judging by his shifting art style and storyline inconsistencies I'd say he's real but he has a whole army of ghost artists to help him out when he's feeling lazy

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 16 Jul 2009 - 21:54

@MikhailN wrote:
@kamajii wrote:
Smile

But,
AFAIK, Yu Aida have supporters that study Italian and Europen politics
and society for creating more realistic pictures of world.

I think they try to weave the GSG story into real life so that people think that it could be happening if yo take one point of view but it's not
I know people who used to study hard and get 3.8+ college grade averages (4.0 scale), so that they could go to Star Fleet Academy (in San Francisco, Cal, USA)!

@MikhailN wrote:
@kamajii wrote:P2 Masonic lodge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due)

Spanish death squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupos_Antiterroristas_de_Liberaci%C3%B3n)

Okay...
Nice people to have as friends. Evil
At least, if you run into a Vatican Church Agents, you have to kill them, because they are so Mortified you cant torture information out of them!

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 1:38

@Kiskaloo wrote:
Are there corrupt cops? Yes Indeed
Are there contract killers? Yes Indeed
Are there hot young girls like Natalie Portman? Yes Indeed
Do the three come together on a regular basis in every major city in America and act according to the film? NO

The totaly crasy drugged police commander is totally fiction, IMHO.
The mafia contract kiiler, that was unknown even for his employers (except Tony) for decades, it's a fiction too, IMHO.
Hot american girls... If she was fat, it was more realistic, IMHO.Smile

@MikhailN wrote:
I take it that Kamajii has never been to the US, so he bases his perceptions about USA on the closest his society can offer him about USA: bang head Hollywood bang head .
"You catch me, Doc!"

If I wrote unnderstandable, I think that any "no documentary" film is fictional. Smile
By the way, nowdays we have enough of information sources about other countries, except for Hollywood. News channels, blogs, documentary films can help to understand country even you never was there.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Piero on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 1:57

On a note relating more to the original topic, does anyone know what sort of accuracy can really be expected from the Dragunov? I'd been under the impression the thing wasn't particularly accurate compared to a lot of modern sniper rifles, but some of my reading seems to indicate that the accuracy testing they're required to pass is comparable to that of a lot of weapons I'd generally assumed were a lot more accurate then the Dragunov was. The Finns also apparently get some pretty impressive results with high end ammunition of their own manufacture, though I'm not sure how reliable my source on that one is.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 2:14

@Piero wrote:On a note relating more to the original topic, does anyone know what sort of accuracy can really be expected from the Dragunov? I'd been under the impression the thing wasn't particularly accurate compared to a lot of modern sniper rifles, but some of my reading seems to indicate that the accuracy testing they're required to pass is comparable to that of a lot of weapons I'd generally assumed were a lot more accurate then the Dragunov was. The Finns also apparently get some pretty impressive results with high end ammunition of their own manufacture, though I'm not sure how reliable my source on that one is.

SVD (http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn18-e.htm)
AFAIK, SVD is not a "sniper rifle" in "western" sense as Remington 700 or Cheytac. SVD used in every infantry squad for the defeat of aims at ranges (700 m) behind of range of AK/AKM (400 m) on the battlefield. SVD creates for marksman, not for sniper. It must be reliable and cheap. The extraordinary accuracy is not required.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 2:33

@Piero wrote:On a note relating more to the original topic, does anyone know what sort of accuracy can really be expected from the Dragunov? I'd been under the impression the thing wasn't particularly accurate compared to a lot of modern sniper rifles, but some of my reading seems to indicate that the accuracy testing they're required to pass is comparable to that of a lot of weapons I'd generally assumed were a lot more accurate then the Dragunov was. The Finns also apparently get some pretty impressive results with high end ammunition of their own manufacture, though I'm not sure how reliable my source on that one is.

Truth be told, the Dragunov is actually more accurate than a lot of people give it credit for. It is comparable to most Western sniper rifles plus it's semi-auto. In the name of fairness at the really long ranges it tends to lose out to the Western sniper rifles but remember two things: One, this is actually a Designated Marksman's Rifle, not a sniper rifle in the strictest sense and Two, the doctrine when it was just built was that snipers engage about 400yards or so. The Russians were thinking that it's better to have lots of grunts functioning as average snipers than to have only 1 brilliant sniper. That's why the rifle is so easy to train people with and use.

The reason why people say it isn't that accurate is because of another 2 reasons:

1. They mix it up with the FPK that is sometimes sold as a "Romanian Dragunov." Truth be told, it's a modified AK47
2. The ammo that the Dragunov uses is not exported out of Russia, so people make their own, mess up their groupings and think it's inaccurate

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Piero on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 2:42

So out of curiosity, do you know if the stuff listed on wikipedia about the accuracy testing that Dragunovs have to pass is actually true, or is it bs? They were comparing the requirements to those of the M24 and M110, and I was under the impression that those were much more accurate weapons.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 3:05

@Piero wrote:So out of curiosity, do you know if the stuff listed on wikipedia about the accuracy testing that Dragunovs have to pass is actually true, or is it bs? They were comparing the requirements to those of the M24 and M110, and I was under the impression that those were much more accurate weapons.

There is SV-98 (http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn28-e.htm) as equivalent of M24. And M110 (XM100 (http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn13-r.htm) may be you mean?) is the equivalent of SVD. But XM110 was accepted in 2005, then SVD was accepted in 1963 Smile It's like comparing AK 47 and M4, weapons devided by half of age. And, we, russians, have saying: "The best is the enemy of the good." Smile


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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 3:08

@Piero wrote:So out of curiosity, do you know if the stuff listed on wikipedia about the accuracy testing that Dragunovs have to pass is actually true, or is it bs? They were comparing the requirements to those of the M24 and M110, and I was under the impression that those were much more accurate weapons.

Absolutely no idea cos i'm not from the Russian armed forces. I would think that the Russians test those very well since they're going out to fight for the Motherland. As for the ones that are sold to the US, I
don't expect them to give much thought Laughing . Accuracy is actually quite debatable. One example is the DSR1 which claims to be able to get 0.2MOA at 100yards but when I tried it, I got about 0.3MOA Puzzled . I suspect the accuracy data is attained by clamping the gun down so tight that the only thing that can move the gun is an earthquake. Anyway a good shooter can do wonders with a decent rifle, regardless of accuracy (within reasonable limits of course) snipe

If you're really interested, then the best person is one from the Russian armed forces. Do we have any in the forums?


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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 3:13

@MikhailN wrote:
If you're really interested, then the best person is one from the Russian armed forces. Do we have any in the forums?
I don't think so. Smile
But... You can write to Maxim Popenker (mpopenker.livejournal.com), the owner of site world.guns.ru. He is weapon expert, and writes some books about it. He can speak english, AFAIK, and not be a problem to get the answer from him.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 3:25

@kamajii wrote:
@MikhailN wrote:If you're really interested, then the best person is one from the Russian armed forces. Do we have any in the forums?
I don't think so. Smile
But... You can write to Maxim Popenker (mpopenker.livejournal.com), the owner of site world.guns.ru. He is weapon expert, and writes some books about it. He can speak english, AFAIK, and not be a problem to get the answer from him.

Nah I'm not that interested in such things, Piero is. I believe that as long as you're familiar with the gun and ammo, anything is possible (Go check Rob Furlong. He hit an insurgent at 2657yards. You thought that's impressive? The effective range for his rifle was 2190yards head bang. Granted where he was shooting the air was thinner, but still...) snipe

By the way,

@kamajii wrote: And M110 (XM100 (http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn13-r.htm) may be you mean?) is the
equivalent of SVD. But XM110 was accepted in 2005, then SVD was accepted in 1963 Smile
It's like comparing AK 47 and M4, weapons devided by half of age. And, we, russians, have saying: "The best is the enemy of the good." Smile

XM110 is the prototype of the M110 SASS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi-Automatic_Sniper_System).

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by LoC978 on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 12:39

@MikhailN wrote:...the FPK that is sometimes sold as a "Romanian Dragunov." Truth be told, it's a modified AK47
I've always wondered how this was possible... that's the weapon I have, and while it's not terribly inaccurate, it's no sniper rifle (gets a little shaky past 200m). I understand it's based off of the Kalashnikov action, but how would one make an AK47 that fires a 7.62R without replacing the bolt and chamber (thus making it an entirely new weapon)?

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 12:58

@LoC978 wrote:
@MikhailN wrote:...the FPK that is sometimes sold as a "Romanian Dragunov." Truth be told, it's a modified AK47
I've always wondered how this was possible... that's the weapon I have, and while it's not terribly inaccurate, it's no sniper rifle (gets a little shaky past 200m). I understand it's based off of the Kalashnikov action, but how would one make an AK47 that fires a 7.62R without replacing the bolt and chamber (thus making it an entirely new weapon)?

They just took the AK47 design, modified it into another dimension and tried to pass it off as a Dragunov. They changed the bolt and chamber for the 7.62 x 54mmR, among many other changes. Still, if the design isn't geared for accuracy then it's just another rifle. Think of it as something like the MP5. Even if it's rechambered for the .40 S&W round doesn't mean it's a completely new gun.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by LoC978 on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 13:03

moving between automatic pistol cartridges could be considered a pretty lateral move, though. going from 7.62Soviet to 7.62Russian is more akin to chambering an MP5 in .357Magnum... it would need more than a rechambering to survive the new stresses involved, I'd think... pretty much a redesign from the ground up.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 13:12

@LoC978 wrote:moving between automatic pistol cartridges could be considered a pretty lateral move, though. going from 7.62Soviet to 7.62Russian is more akin to chambering an MP5 in .357Magnum... it would need more than a rechambering to survive the new stresses involved, I'd think... pretty much a redesign from the ground up.

Exactly why your Dragunov wannabe is behaving like a wannabe. There are other reasons of course, but dealing with this issue the AK47 was designed for 7.62x39mm, so it would perform at its best with that round. The effects of using the same design with another round would be disastrous.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Piero on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 23:24

Perhaps the best way to describe that rifle's action is as a 'kalashnikov type' action? I've tended to find 'Kalashnikov' a more encompassing term then 'AK-47' especially given how many 'AK-47s' aren't genuine AK-47s.

Then again, a SG-550 could arguably be said to have a 'kalashnikov type' action.

As far as the Dragunov goes, well... seriously speaking hearing a Dragunov's accuracy requirements being described as being comparable to a M24's seems odd, they're not even the same class (and neither is the M110, really, IMO).

Though when I think about it the Dragunov's accuracy potential isn't really that relevant to my GSG OCs who are looking for precision rifles because the ammunition to allow that to happen isn't really that common, so even if it's supposedly capable of giving some of the other weapons I've considered a run for their money, the fact is, a lot of the other options have the advantage of being able to use 7.62x51mm NATO match ammo. Logistics is kind of important, after all.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Fri 17 Jul 2009 - 23:59

@Piero wrote:Perhaps the best way to describe that rifle's action is as a 'kalashnikov type' action? I've tended to find 'Kalashnikov' a more encompassing term then 'AK-47' especially given how many 'AK-47s' aren't genuine AK-47s.

Then again, a SG-550 could arguably be said to have a 'kalashnikov type' action.

As far as the Dragunov goes, well... seriously speaking hearing a Dragunov's accuracy requirements being described as being comparable to a M24's seems odd, they're not even the same class (and neither is the M110, really, IMO).

The action of the rifles are best described by the conventional terms (blowback, short-stroke piston etc)

As for the Dragunov's accuracy, they are comparable to most sniper rifles up to 400m. If you want to see the difference then try a 1000yard shot. That's where you can feel the difference the little stuff gives you like free-floating barrels, accurate barrel twists etc. The Dragunov was designed to deliver accuracy up to 400m, which was what the Soviet doctrine demanded. Doctrines by Western countries however, ask for accuracy 500m and beyond so their rifles will beat the Dragunov in that respect

In the end, the biggest factor is the shooter. Think of Coporal Rob Furlong I mentioned a few posts earlier

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 3:50

@MikhailN wrote:The Dragunov was designed to deliver accuracy up to 400m, which was what the Soviet doctrine demanded.

I am sorry but up to 700 m. AKM/AK-74 shoots on range up to 400 m.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 4:15

@kamajii wrote:
@MikhailN wrote:The Dragunov was designed to deliver accuracy up to 400m, which was what the Soviet doctrine demanded.
I am sorry but up to 700 m. AKM/AK-74 shoots on range up to 400 m.

Oops. Actually it's 800m, though I'm inclined to think that as it approaches 800m the poor guy would be struggling, just like how you would be struggling to hit a target at 2000m with other sniper rifles that are supposed to have an effective range of 2000m. Anyway I'm told that the average SVD operator is expected to engage at about 400m in a raging battle and his rifle's built for that purpose. Not sure how much that doctrine has changed though...

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by tsundere9kagami2 on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 6:20

The Druganov could use itself a buffer or something to reduce recoil ....but they cant now can they the way the stock is...

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Awinnell on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 6:36

The Dragunov is meant to be used by ' Infantry ' not Snipers ! so its built light and rugged, most snipers don't do hill assaults,except in a supporting role from range,but the Designated Marksmen carrying the Dragunov does do this so he really doesn't want or need a heavy, finicky gun, in addition he wants tough optics so that it really doesn't matter to much if they get knocked around,snipers have to adjust their scopes regulate their breathing etc,the Marksmen doesn't get time for that

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by LoC978 on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 6:43

...and the recoil's not too bad anyway, at least on my wannabe rifle. I doubt it's much different on the real McCoy.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 7:05

@Awinnell wrote:The Dragunov is meant to be used by ' Infantry ' not Snipers ! so its built light and rugged, most snipers don't do hill assaults,except in a supporting role from range,but the Designated Marksmen carrying the Dragunov does do this so he really doesn't want or need a heavy, finicky gun, in addition he wants tough optics so that it really doesn't matter to much if they get knocked around,snipers have to adjust their scopes regulate their breathing etc,the Marksmen doesn't get time for that

There is a distinction between police rifles and military ones where military sniper rifles are something like what you said above: tough, light and they don't need to be very accurate. Police rifles are less rugged but the accuracy is unbelievable.

Otherwise, what you said above is QFT. Good

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 9:08

@Awinnell wrote:The Dragunov is meant to be used by ' Infantry ' not Snipers ! so its built light and rugged, most snipers don't do hill assaults,except in a supporting role from range,but the Designated Marksmen carrying the Dragunov does do this so he really doesn't want or need a heavy, finicky gun, in addition he wants tough optics so that it really doesn't matter to much if they get knocked around,snipers have to adjust their scopes regulate their breathing etc,the Marksmen doesn't get time for that

Which is exactly why Rico uses it. She's not a "sniper" in the traditional sense, even if she is the one who normally takes shots one would consider as "sniping".

And since she's a cyborg, she is unaffected by the weapon's recoil since she is more than strong enough to actively dampen it.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 11 Aug 2009 - 11:23

Personally, I think the Desert Tactical Arms Stealth Recon Scout would probably make a really nice sniper rifle for the girls since it's "small" (under a meter in length) and allows different rounds to be used depending on the mission thanks to a field-swappable barrel and bolt.

I also like the LWRC SABR 308. SABR stands for "Sniper, Assault or Battle Rifle" and like the defunct H&K XM8 that Kara uses, it allows you to use one weapon in different configurations thanks to field-swappable receivers and barrels.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Tue 11 Aug 2009 - 16:18

No way! It decrease Jean-Rico fratello's brutality! Smile

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Tue 11 Aug 2009 - 17:34

@Kiskaloo wrote:Personally, I think the Desert Tactical Arms Stealth Recon Scout would probably make a really nice sniper rifle for the girls since it's "small" (under a meter in length) and allows different rounds to be used depending on the mission thanks to a field-swappable barrel and bolt.

I agree with that. The bullpup design means that it's shorter, so it can squeeze into tight spots. That is important in an urban setting where you may need to hide anywhere. That also happens to be why the DSR1 was adopted by the GSG9 (and Walther). Must be some new trend in gun design these days

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Tue 11 Aug 2009 - 17:46

"Unit cost $3275-$3585" OMG!!! Smile


Last edited by kamajii on Tue 11 Aug 2009 - 17:48; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 11 Aug 2009 - 17:47

@kamajii wrote:"Unit cost
$3275-$3585"
Oh, my god! Smile

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Tue 11 Aug 2009 - 18:00

@kamajii wrote:"Unit cost $3275-$3585" OMG!!! Smile

Wait till you see the DSR1. At least US$30k, not including shipping cost. Plus AMP doesn't sell it on the civilian market anymore

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by kamajii on Sat 15 Aug 2009 - 16:36

Does any operations of GSG need some precission and some expensive weapon? Wink

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Sat 15 Aug 2009 - 16:46

@kamajii wrote:Does any operations of GSG need some precission and some expensive weapon? Wink

Depends. I'm imagining that since the SWA doesn't have any snipers they might as well invest in something decent. Nothing like a sniper shot in the middle of the night to scare the living daylights out of the bad guys.

Just an afterthought. Since Rico stopped using the SVD for the MG3 does this mean that the SWA doesn't need a specialized sniper?

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Piero on Sat 15 Aug 2009 - 17:02

I seem to remember Rico's SVD showing up again after the armoured car attack where she used the MG-3. Actually, Rico has used a variety of weapons over the course of the series. She seems to be decently versatile.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Sat 15 Aug 2009 - 17:07

@Piero wrote:I seem to remember Rico's SVD showing up again after the armoured car attack where she used the MG-3. Actually, Rico has used a variety of weapons over the course of the series. She seems to be decently versatile.

Oh ya. The recent bit of insanity in Venice. Ok let me try again. Now that *somebody* is doling out some serious stuff at them would it be wise to have specialized snipers? I'm looking forward to a counter-sniper fratello head bang

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Piero on Sat 15 Aug 2009 - 17:14

When you say specialised snipers here, do you mean like the sorts of snipers who can make proper use of the capabilities of sniper rifles chambered in rounds like .338 Lapua and .50 BMG?

Actually, Elsa had that .50 Hecate that she never used in the first season of the anime, though that episode had a number of oddities...

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Sat 15 Aug 2009 - 17:22

@Piero wrote:When you say specialised snipers here, do you mean like the sorts of snipers who can make proper use of the capabilities of sniper rifles chambered in rounds like .338 Lapua and .50 BMG?

Yup. And it's not just Rico running about with an SVD. I'm actually hoping for a fratello that would stalk Giacomo down and kill him off in a sniper duel lasting days. That would be quite interesting.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 15 Aug 2009 - 17:28

@MikhailN wrote:
@Piero wrote:When you say specialised snipers here, do you mean like the sorts of snipers who can make proper use of the capabilities of sniper rifles chambered in rounds like .338 Lapua and .50 BMG?

Yup. And it's not just Rico running about with an SVD. I'm actually hoping for a fratello that would stalk Giacomo down and kill him off in a sniper duel lasting days. That would be quite interesting.

We've never seen any what I would call "true sniper" missions in the manga. The anime had Giuse fire the Walther WA 2000 to assassinate that Chief of Police, but that story is unique to the anime.

I've had Rico perform a pseudo sniper role in my fiction (
Spoiler:
and she does so again in my current story against Dante
) and in an earlier story I had Triela employ a Barrett M82A1 in a "counter-sniper" role, though it was more just pumping rounds into the sniper's nest.


Last edited by Kiskaloo on Sat 15 Aug 2009 - 17:30; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by rusty-spring on Sat 15 Aug 2009 - 17:30

[quote="MikhailN"]
@Piero wrote:I'm actually hoping for a fratello that would stalk Giacomo down and kill him off in a sniper duel lasting days.
I could see Jean just giving Rico the time needed to learn such a task, instead of creating a new fratello based squarely on the role. Would save time/energy I would think. Then Rico could simply assume the role again if need be.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 15 Aug 2009 - 17:32

I agree. It makes sense for Rico to be trained as the "designated sniper".

Based on the anime, you could argue Elsa was the "designated sniper" since she was the one who originally tasked to have taken the shot with the WA 2000.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by MikhailN on Sat 15 Aug 2009 - 17:37

@Kiskaloo wrote:I've had Rico perform a pseudo sniper role in my fiction (
Spoiler:
and she does so again in my current story against Dante
) and in an earlier story I had Triela employ a Barrett M82A1 in a "counter-sniper" role, though it was more just pumping rounds into the sniper's nest.

High Five I did have a duel in one of my ficts too High Five , though I admit I did take some liberties with some of the details

@rusty-spring wrote:I could see Jean just giving Rico the time needed to learn such a task, instead of creating a new fratello based squarely on the role. Would save time/energy I would think. Then Rico could simply assume the role again if need be.

That's possible. After all the first thing you need to do is to find an actual sniper to be the handler. That's the easy part

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by boomer_gonz on Sun 16 Aug 2009 - 4:20

@Kiskaloo wrote:I agree. It makes sense for Rico to be trained as the "designated sniper".

Based on the anime, you could argue Elsa was the "designated sniper" since she was the one who originally tasked to have taken the shot with the WA 2000.

I think Elsa was, more or less, the multitasker of the girls. That is why she was the first field agent in what I believe to be an experimental designation.

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 16 Aug 2009 - 4:41

Just a bit of a nitpick: the WA2000 was Etta's. That rifle of Elsa's that Giuseppe stepped in to fire instead of her was either a SiG 550 or a HK G3/SG-1. Also, I don't really go 'such-and-such is manga-centric or such-and-such is anime centric' - I prefer to regard the version with more details as simply being an unabridged version of the other. Razz

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Re: Rico should switch to AWP sniper rifle

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 16 Aug 2009 - 12:51

I just prefer the manga's continuity to the anime's and I am of the personal opinion that the anime took liberties with the manga, but then they had more episodes to work with than Yu had chapters published so they needed "filler".

I understand Yu wrote the screenplays for [i]-Il Teatrino-[/u] (since they now had plenty of chapters of material to work with when scripting the anime episodes) so while I hate that show on a visual basis, it is helpful as a resource because it offers a different view of the events that happened in the manga - though even there, Yu felt the need to change the manga's story for the anime (probably to fit the different needs of the medium).

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