Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

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Claes'' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 16 May 2009 - 10:43

Elfenmagix posted in the OC Wiki Updates thread the new entry for a "Type 1 / 2 Cyborg" which is a mix of both Series 1 and Series 2 systems and components and asked whether those of us who have written Claes in OC fiction would classify her as one. Since that's not really the proper thread to discuss this, I started a new one here.


I admit to having written OC stories where Claes is said to have tested parts used for the Series 2, but I now believe I was in error to do so.

It now strikes me that Claes is a "fatigue test structure" for the Series 1 cyborgs and not a "prototyping testbed" for the Series 2 cyborgs.

On the 787 program, we have two of these test structures - ZA997 and ZA998. ZA997 is being used to show how a production 787 will deal with tens of thousands of flight hours and flight cycles, but in a greatly accelerated manner by being run 24x7 and at higher stresses (to simulate the effect of lower stresses accumulated over a long period of time).

ZA998 will show just how strong a 787 is by pushing it to 150% of the highest conceivable force it would ever endure in controlled flight to ensure the integrity of the structure and verify our computer models that predict how those structures will fail at certain load limits.

In the opening of Chapter 6, we see Claes testing her shoulder joints to the point of failure. She also has submitted to examinations of her artificial heart. I expect she's testing how the active duty girl's systems will wear and age. We know the girl's parts do wear out with use - Triela needed a leg replaced for this reason in the manga - so the medical staff would want to have predictive models on when systems would need replacing to schedule the surgeries and to ensure a cyborg is not sent into a high-physical-stress environment with a part that could fail under extreme load.

Also, by knowing just how strong a Series 1 part is, the Series 2 and beyond teams have a baseline to design to. If for cost and construction reasons a Series 2 needs to be only X% as strong as a Series 1 in a certain area, they know where they can and cannot remove structure and support to meet this goal.

The Series 2 girl's have weaker shoulder joints, for example, then the Series 1. They would know from Claes' tests in Chapter 6 how strong the Series 1 shoulder joint is, so they could design down from that to reach the desired performance/cost goal.

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 16 May 2009 - 11:50

I would say take a look at episode 5, "Promessa". I remember Dr. Guilliani saying "We testing a 'NEW' shoulder joint."

The question here is, what if possible is this shoulder joint for: first gen cyborgs, or second/newer gen cyborgs or a combination of both? The answer can go any way. But I find it strange that only one shoulder joint gave and not both, so it could be possible that they are only had replaced that 1 shoulder joint on her and it failed.

But this is why I threw the question, to be absolutely sure on its answer.

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Tommygunner70 on Sat 16 May 2009 - 12:16

ElfenMagix wrote:I would say take a look at episode 5, "Promessa". I remember Dr. Guilliani saying "We testing a 'NEW' shoulder joint."

The question here is, what if possible is this shoulder joint for: first gen cyborgs, or second/newer gen cyborgs or a combination of both? The answer can go any way. But I find it strange that only one shoulder joint gave and not both, so it could be possible that they are only had replaced that 1 shoulder joint on her and it failed.

But this is why I threw the question, to be absolutely sure on its answer.

Well, We know that Claes is basically a test platform for new Cybernetics. In Canon, Angie was a living lab rat for the technology. But we all know how she turned out. I doubt that Section Two would try the same method again. as such, they might as well use Claes as a test bed for Type 2 Cybernetics. effectively making her a Hybrid if you ask me.

Type 1 cyborg frame and control system with type 2 parts installed.

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by West Nile on Sat 16 May 2009 - 23:42

well looking at Claes in il teatrino, i'd have to say Claes is their prototype for cybernetic research for medical use. thus the heart experiment. it's more of

"how are you so sure that this new heart will save my wife?"

"You see that girl over there, she's doing just fine!"

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 17 May 2009 - 10:53

Now I throw this question (again): does she keep the parts or her old type 1 parts restored to her?
The problem here is, she tests the parts to failure until it does fail. Thus that part now needs to be replaced. The question is, with what?

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by boomer_gonz on Sun 17 May 2009 - 11:21

I say it's a mashup.

She's just like any other beta-tester. I do a little of that myself on the side and the general rule is.

1)If it works, keep it.
2) If it doesn't work, throw it out and go back to using the previous one.

LOLZ, she's our little Frankenstein's monster.

-Imagines Gilliani looking through a bin of spare shoulder joints-

Gilliani: No...no...no...not even close...no...how the hell did that get in here? Ah, here we go, this one should be fine.

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 17 May 2009 - 11:43

:lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!:

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by West Nile on Mon 18 May 2009 - 0:47

i suppose with 1st gen parts... same way Angie had her full body remake, it's all probably 1st gen parts since other wise would make her a official 2nd gen cyborg

there's probably body parts assigned for 1 cyborg alone, like a whole crate of "Triela Legs" or a tank of "Claes hearts" and probably a box of "Petra...." well i'll let your imagination handle that Smile

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Guest on Mon 18 May 2009 - 5:28

West Nile wrote:i suppose with 1st gen parts... same way Angie had her full body remake, it's all probably 1st gen parts since other wise would make her a official 2nd gen cyborg

hmm maybe its not possible to change all of it so even if 80% are "new" parts she is still at the core an updated 1st gen

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 18 May 2009 - 12:19

This is quite funny.

In my fanFict "Solution's Resolution", I have Jean as a Type 0 Cyborg created by Section 1 years before he went to Section 2. He is unaware of the fact that he is a cyborg, but his behavior shows it. Anyways... Jean underwent a destruction of his arm during a fight and needed replacement parts. Fernando found enough parts for Jean to last him a life time from an 'abandoned' Section 1 Lab Facility, which includes arms, legs and other body parts. Jean was rebuilt and reprogrammed to think he underwent a car accident and was out for a few weeks in a coma. OH, How Convientant! Oh, How SWA! Evil

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Guest on Mon 18 May 2009 - 12:41

Now that's an interesting twist in a fic :p

'Cyborg Jean'....hehehe the 'Replicated Man'

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Guest on Tue 19 May 2009 - 8:59

anybody got the idea that actually how "strong" are the girls? 1st gen and 2nd gen respectively. Even the 1st gens don't seem to be capable of the acrobatic maneuvers done by ghost in the shell cyborgs.

my general take for the 1st gen. They are stronger than a well trained solider, but not by magnitudes (or many magnitudes, at least they don't don't dance around buildings and can still be over powered by a normal soilder). They don't feel pain and the refined nuro systems make them better marks men.

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 19 May 2009 - 9:17

Henrietta easily lifted a guy who was probably around 125 kilos with one arm in Sicily after the deaths of Elsa and Lauro.

I figure Kara can lift 200kg in free weights, and she's a Series 2. I would figure a Series 1 could probably do 300kg.

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by West Nile on Tue 19 May 2009 - 9:32

hoh wrote:anybody got the idea that actually how "strong" are the girls? 1st gen and 2nd gen respectively. Even the 1st gens don't seem to be capable of the acrobatic maneuvers done by ghost in the shell cyborgs.

my general take for the 1st gen. They are stronger than a well trained solider, but not by magnitudes (or many magnitudes, at least they don't don't dance around buildings and can still be over powered by a normal soilder). They don't feel pain and the refined nuro systems make them better marks men.

they probably have strength proportional to their size, 1st gens lifting 3x their own weight, while 2nd gens 2x their own weight. plus they don't feel pain, make good marksmen and looking at Rico, razor sharp senses when on alert. however when it comes to agility and using their strength that requires training as demonstrated by Pino and the Colonel managing to knock down Triela....

who want to see a rematch between Triela and the Colonel, i know i do

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by LoC978 on Tue 19 May 2009 - 14:16

then there's the bookshelf that Henrietta caught in eps. 1 and 2, even when I was in really good shape (two hours of Physical Training every day, including weights), I couldn't have caught that thing one-handed. the guy who tipped it had to really strain to tip the thing over, so I'd guess it was at least 400lbs (180-ish kilos). To stop that from underneath (hence with no leverage) using only a casual one-handed catch smacks very much of truly superhuman strength (and strong building materials. I always felt her hand should've gone right through the wood... but that would've ruined the moment).

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 19 May 2009 - 14:35

I went with 200-300kg because the world records are 213kg for the Snatch lift and 264kg for the Clean and Jerk.

The girls don't use hydraulic cylinders to power their limbs, they use muscles over a skeleton. Yes, those muscles and skeleton are artificial, but performance two to three times the Woman's Olympic Records strikes me as being almost ridiculously high, as-is.

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 19 May 2009 - 20:43

I would say that for a Type Two/ Second Gen Cyborg.
The first generation, though smaller may be heavier, which it seems we all agree on in the OC Wiki entries. With this extra weight, their bodies must be able to carry it and do so at super speeds as they do (Example- Latest Chapter where Silvia out runs a gunner shooting at her and nails him in the head). Then they must do so effortlessly, seeming not to get tired until after the fact. They are heavier- Episode 11 (?) shows this, when Henrietta is running to retrieve her camera bag back, and hops from roof top to roof top, cracking the shingles as she does and when she's going too fast to make a turn, cracking and denting walls she's bouncing off with no damage to herself. For such a small body, she must weigh a lot and her muscles must work hard to get all that movement done.

Petra's no light wieght either. In vol 7 (?) she jumps from a low floor to a balcony a couple of floors up and lands on 'Sandro who complains about her weight! Again, her body has to be strong and fast enough to do this. So they have to be stronger than Olyimpic class atheletes... and be disqualified for having "an unfair advantage!" Laughing

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 19 May 2009 - 21:13

I think some of those scenes in the anime were for "dramatic effect" and I am disinclined to take them at face value.

I've outrun gunfire ( amazing how fast you'll move trying to save your ass sweat ) and that shooter had a limited angle he could engage Chiara and Silvia from.

I just don't see the girls as "the Bionic Woman" capable of running at 100km/h and dead-lifting 1000kg. That just makes them ridiculous, in my opinion.

In the end, I see Gunslinger Girl as science fiction, not a super hero comic.

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Guest on Tue 19 May 2009 - 22:02

ElfenMagix wrote:I would say that for a Type Two/ Second Gen Cyborg.
The first generation, though smaller may be heavier, which it seems we all agree on in the OC Wiki entries. With this extra weight, their bodies must be able to carry it and do so at super speeds as they do (Example- Latest Chapter where Silvia out runs a gunner shooting at her and nails him in the head). Then they must do so effortlessly, seeming not to get tired until after the fact. They are heavier- Episode 11 (?) shows this, when Henrietta is running to retrieve her camera bag back, and hops from roof top to roof top, cracking the shingles as she does and when she's going too fast to make a turn, cracking and denting walls she's bouncing off with no damage to herself. For such a small body, she must weigh a lot and her muscles must work hard to get all that movement done.

Petra's no light wieght either. In vol 7 (?) she jumps from a low floor to a balcony a couple of floors up and lands on 'Sandro who complains about her weight! Again, her body has to be strong and fast enough to do this. So they have to be stronger than Olyimpic class atheletes... and be disqualified for having "an unfair advantage!" Laughing

the unfair advantage thing makes me thinking about anglic's brother who probably wouldn't be able to join the normal football league for the same reason.

there's actually such cases in real life. My shooting coach couldn't represent GB in the 2008 olympic because the drug he takes for his heart disease actually slows his heart-beat down and a slower heart beat is considered advantage in a shooting competition.

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 19 May 2009 - 22:05

They also denied that dude with CFRP legs a spot in the Olympics.

But there is an "unfair advantage" of doing a four minute miles in three minutes, thirty and then there is the "unfair advantage" of doing it in one minute. Wink

I figure Kara can do 100m in 10 seconds and run five klicks without exertion. She can also leap a hole nine meters in diameter and do sit-ups and push-ups until she gets bored.

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by West Nile on Wed 20 May 2009 - 6:34

LoC978 wrote:then there's the bookshelf that Henrietta caught in eps. 1 and 2, even when I was in really good shape (two hours of Physical Training every day, including weights), I couldn't have caught that thing one-handed. the guy who tipped it had to really strain to tip the thing over, so I'd guess it was at least 400lbs (180-ish kilos). To stop that from underneath (hence with no leverage) using only a casual one-handed catch smacks very much of truly superhuman strength (and strong building materials. I always felt her hand should've gone right through the wood... but that would've ruined the moment).

well what would you prefer

thug: uhhh *pulls the bookshelf*
Etta: *catch*
thug: ow crap

or

thug: uhh *pulls the bookshelf*
SMASH!
Etta: *a large hole apears behind the bookshelf and Etta is standing through it*
thug: you have got to be kidding me!

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by LoC978 on Wed 20 May 2009 - 11:04

if GSG was a comedy...

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 20 May 2009 - 21:10

West Nile wrote:
LoC978 wrote:then there's the bookshelf that Henrietta caught in eps. 1 and 2, even when I was in really good shape (two hours of Physical Training every day, including weights), I couldn't have caught that thing one-handed. the guy who tipped it had to really strain to tip the thing over, so I'd guess it was at least 400lbs (180-ish kilos). To stop that from underneath (hence with no leverage) using only a casual one-handed catch smacks very much of truly superhuman strength (and strong building materials. I always felt her hand should've gone right through the wood... but that would've ruined the moment).

well what would you prefer

thug: uhhh *pulls the bookshelf*
Etta: *catch*
thug: ow crap

or

thug: uhh *pulls the bookshelf*
SMASH!
Etta: *a large hole apears behind the bookshelf and Etta is standing through it*
thug: you have got to be kidding me!
I was thinking of the time when Cleas drags to dead thugs to Rabello like a loving cat would a mouse to his owner, and there is a knife sticking out of her belly!
Having rescued ppl in my line of work, dragging a person by the back of the shirt is one of the hardest things do, and Claes is looking at Rabello like, "Where should I put these?!!"

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Tommygunner70 on Wed 20 May 2009 - 21:34

I know what you mean Elfen, Depending on the state of said person, I end up throwing the person I am carrying off over my shoulders most of the time. Which used to happen nearly every weekend...

With a good enough mood, Sora will forget how much she's had. With the result of her being totally drunk, and unable to keep her balance.
Two choices for me at that point;
  1. Try to walk while supporting Sora while move side ways all over the side walk.
  2. Just puck her up and throw her over my shoulder and carry her all the way to home.


I personally go for the second option there. Gives me a minor work out, and I can walk straight ahead instead of having to worry that we don't end up on the street at the wrong time.

I've dragged people off by the hem of their shirts too while I forcefully removed them from a public door step. I am always a bit reluctant to do this because it has often happened that the person being dragged by me was wearing loosely fitting trousers. with the rough floor, their pants tries to stay behind on the spot while the whole buddy is being pulled away from it...

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by West Nile on Thu 21 May 2009 - 0:19

but then i still think that size has to be put to account, there is no way Henrietta is as strong as her taller "collegues" size has to put account to something...

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 21 May 2009 - 9:58

West Nile wrote:but then i still think that size has to be put to account, there is no way Henrietta is as strong as her taller "colleagues" size has to put account to something...

I do not follow weightlifting (professional or otherwise), but I wonder if a more compact form would be better? Especially for something like the Clean and Lift?

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Awinnell on Thu 21 May 2009 - 10:36

Kiskaloo wrote:I went with 200-300kg because the world records are 213kg for the Snatch lift and 264kg for the Clean and Jerk.

The girls don't use hydraulic cylinders to power their limbs, they use muscles over a skeleton. Yes, those muscles and skeleton are artificial, but performance two to three times the Woman's Olympic Records strikes me as being almost ridiculously high, as-is.

actually the current world record in the 75kg+ class is 410lb/186kg set at the 2008 olympics and is held by Jang Mi-Ran of South Korea








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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 21 May 2009 - 10:40

Awinnell wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:I went with 200-300kg because the world records are 213kg for the Snatch lift and 264kg for the Clean and Jerk.

The girls don't use hydraulic cylinders to power their limbs, they use muscles over a skeleton. Yes, those muscles and skeleton are artificial, but performance two to three times the Woman's Olympic Records strikes me as being almost ridiculously high, as-is.

actually the current world record in the 75kg+ class is 410lb/186kg set at the 2008 olympics and is held by Jang Mi-Ran of South Korea

Ok, so they are stronger then any human, man or woman. Wink

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If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
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Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

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Forum Posts : 10896

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

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Re: Claes' Role in the SWA Today?

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