Behind the choices...

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Thu 20 May 2010 - 12:58

Interesting comparison that I meant to add when I wrote Monty's weapons choices bit up above. Unforunately at that time I'd lost the site.

When I was looking around for a weapon for Monty, and was hovering around the PPK, I toyed with using some of Walther's other offereings (via Bond Lifestyle):


From left to right: PPK, PPS, P99c and P99.
The P99s are much wider than the PPS and PPK. This quickly ruled out the P99 variants as the double stack magazine would have made the weapon just too bulky for Monty to easily conceal.

Then of course there was just over all size:

Clockwise from top left: PPK, P99, PPS, P99c

Which narrowed the Walther choices down to the PPK and PPS:


The PPS was still larger, but not enough to be a huge concern. However, it had two other things working against it. The first was, and this is just from what I've heard around the interbotz, that its ammunition isn't civilian legal in a number of EU countries. That makes it more difficult for Jethro and Monty to aquire ammo. Easiest just to buy over the counter.

The second is just down to Monty's personal preferences: The PPK is a nice looking gun and is made of metal. The PPS is made of "plastic". It also looks like it fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down. Which adds up to the fact that Monty's not going to touch it unless she absolutely has to.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by maverick375 on Thu 20 May 2010 - 18:18

Well, the PPS is chambered in both 9mm Luger and 40S&W. I wrote off Jamie's use of 9mm as being that she can easily get it from the agency, and I'm sure there's a black market for such ammo anyway.

I'm not sure of the individual country legalities of 40cal, as it's not technically a NATO or military caliber, so that might be an option.

Personal preference is an interesting decision maker. Kirika in Noir used a Beretta 1934 in 380 auto, and the lackluster performance of the round was explained away by Kirika's insane accuracy, so that might be an excuse to use.

I've never been partial to PPK's and clones because of the slide bite that occurs with my larger hands, but for a woman, it's probably not a problem.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Thu 20 May 2010 - 20:39

@maverick375 wrote:Well, the PPS is chambered in both 9mm Luger and 40S&W. I wrote off Jamie's use of 9mm as being that she can easily get it from the agency, and I'm sure there's a black market for such ammo anyway.

I'm not sure of the individual country legalities of 40cal, as it's not technically a NATO or military caliber, so that might be an option.

Personal preference is an interesting decision maker. Kirika in Noir used a Beretta 1934 in 380 auto, and the lackluster performance of the round was explained away by Kirika's insane accuracy, so that might be an excuse to use.

I've never been partial to PPK's and clones because of the slide bite that occurs with my larger hands, but for a woman, it's probably not a problem.
Yeah, I did consider getting 9mm through the Agency but J&M tend to operate for extended periods outside the range of Agency support so generally have to source their own munitions. As to the black market trade in such things: while Jethro most defineately has the contact network for it, it's just one extra complication the fratello doesn't need. Far easier to just buy over the counter with cash and a fake identity. Honestly I hadn't considered .40... And Monty would probably consider it crass anyway sweat

Which I guess leads into personality. I'm not a massive firearms nut (anymore), so tend to pick weapons based on character preferences rather than technical suitibility (within reason of course). In that respect the PPK suits Monty down to the ground.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by boomer_gonz on Thu 20 May 2010 - 20:51

Sooo, would you consider a Browning BAR M1918-A2 being used in a highway chase a bit overkill? Evil

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 20 May 2010 - 23:25

I would not mind a BAR1918-A2....

Walther is a decent piece of equipment. Like everything else, its all on preference. Perhaps a P88-Compact or P5 compact is in order?

BTW, Fellas. my Walther page needs updating... esp. on OCs who uses them.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Fri 21 May 2010 - 0:15

@boomer_gonz wrote:Sooo, would you consider a Browning BAR M1918-A2 being used in a highway chase a bit overkill? Evil
Ah, now... car chases. That's a different story. If she needs firepower, Monty'll grab whatever's handy, though yes, her tendancy tends to be toward smaller, more wieldy weapons. Horses for courses really, and Monty's normal course is concealed carry, stealth and espionage rather than heavy-fire combat.

@ElfenMagix wrote:Walther is a decent piece of equipment. Like everything else, its all
on preference. Perhaps a P88-Compact or P5 compact is in order?

BTW, Fellas. my Walther page needs updating... esp. on OCs who uses them.
Well, to be honest, I'm not actually looking to replace Monty's gun at the moment. As I said, the PPK (particularly being a vintage example) suits Monty's personality, interests and character down to the ground... even if it's not the most practical weapon anymore. The bit above was just what I thought was an interesting comparison, particularly on scale in that small guns seem to have gone the same way as small cars: they keep getting bigger with each generation untill something new comes along to fill the "small" segment again (PPS is larger than the PPK, new VW Polos are larger than the original Golf).

Will look to updating the Walther page with Monty's weapon details tonight... then you can go and fix my formatting foul-ups tomorrow

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 21 May 2010 - 18:17

Sounds Good, Alfisti!

Now for MP5's (?) Allison (or who ever owns her...), she uses the WA2000, right?

I believe that the PP and PPK have achieved a certain level of character that few gun can say they have. A Luger is a Luger, a 1911 is a 1911, a snub nose police .38 revolver is- you get the idea. They are guns that if you have some knowledge there if, a picture comes to your mind as to what it is! Personally, I like the PP and the PPK. Almost bought one years ago. Yes, I know that the PP and PPK are two very different looking guns...


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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by MP5 on Fri 21 May 2010 - 18:26

Yeah, I own Allison, Elfen. As for the WA2000, she doesn't use it, but what I did list is the Denel NTW-20 Anti-Material Rifle.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 21 May 2010 - 18:34

Then somebody else also uses it as their OC weapon, having it seen referred to.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 21 May 2010 - 18:55

Michele employed it for the strike at Castelverde in Under the Radar, but I didn't add it to the OC wiki since it exists in canon.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Fri 21 May 2010 - 21:05

@ElfenMagix wrote:Personally, I like the PP and the PPK. Almost bought one years ago. Yes, I know that the PP and PPK are two very different looking guns...
You may know the difference, but apparently the people who made the early James Bond films didn't. 007 spends a lot of time in those running around with a PP instead of a PPK.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by maverick375 on Sat 22 May 2010 - 11:06

I'm ashamed to say, but I had to look up the difference. It seems the PP is similar in size to a Makarov and the PPK is smaller, primarily in the barrel length.

Hmm, learn something new every day.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Sat 22 May 2010 - 11:19

@maverick375 wrote:I'm ashamed to say, but I had to look up the difference. It seems the PP is similar in size to a Makarov and the PPK is smaller, primarily in the barrel length.

Hmm, learn something new every day.

Pretty much... I think the PPK has a slightly smaller grip from memory as well... something about US market PPKs (PPK/S) being a mongrel crossbreed of the two to get around some law about minimum size limitations.

Personally I just think the PPK looks better than the PP, it has better proportions.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 22 May 2010 - 14:24

Considering how epic Angel is with a blade (or two), I'm thinking Nol might take up bladed weapons - perhaps after seeing Michele practice kenjutsu. Maybe something like a tantō or a kodachi, along with a modern combat knife.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Professor Voodoo on Sat 22 May 2010 - 20:35

@Kiskaloo wrote:Considering how epic Angel is with a blade (or two), I'm thinking Nol might take up bladed weapons - perhaps after seeing Michele practice kenjutsu. Maybe something like a tantō or a kodachi, along with a modern combat knife.

Kara: Hey! Are you saying Nol gets to take a "bladed weapon" into combat! You never let me take my katana on a mission!

Michele: No, I'm not letting Nol take a 5000 sword into a fight either.

Henrietta: But Kara, you got to use that short wazi-kazi thing when we raided that hotel and Michele was away flying the...

Kara: (covering 'Etta's big mouth) Ix-nay on the akizashi-way!

Michele: Actually, Henrietta...I'd like to hear this.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 22 May 2010 - 20:49

@Alfisti wrote:
@maverick375 wrote:I'm ashamed to say, but I had to look up the difference. It seems the PP is similar in size to a Makarov and the PPK is smaller, primarily in the barrel length.

Hmm, learn something new every day.

Pretty much... I think the PPK has a slightly smaller grip from memory as well... something about US market PPKs (PPK/S) being a mongrel crossbreed of the two to get around some law about minimum size limitations.

Personally I just think the PPK looks better than the PP, it has better proportions.
Like I said before, the PPK has its own character that many other guns dont have.
Its not generic. But yes, because of US Laws, the PPK/S here must be sold instead ot the PPK. I have seen too many PPK/S labeled as PPKs. Other than size and ammo, there is little difference in appearance between the two, but the PPK/S is not concealable as the PPK is.

Funny though, I have seen .25 and .22 autos 1/2 the size of the PPK and they are for sale here in the US. There are even .32 Autos smaller than the PPK. North American Arms .32ACP Guardian is smaller; the .32NAA Fernando and Rachel uses is slightly larger than a PPK but not by much.


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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by boomer_gonz on Sat 22 May 2010 - 21:53

@ElfenMagix wrote:Like I said before, the PPK has its own character that many other guns dont have.Its not generic. But yes, because of US Laws, the PPK/S here must be sold instead ot the PPK. I have seen too many PPK/S labeled as PPKs. Other than size and ammo, there is little difference in appearance between the two, but the PPK/S is not concealable as the PPK is.

Funny though, I have seen .25 and .22 autos 1/2 the size of the PPK and they are for sale here in the US. There are even .32 Autos smaller than the PPK. North American Arms .32ACP Guardian is smaller; the .32NAA Fernando and Rachel uses is slightly larger than a PPK but not by much.

True enough, and that could be said for any gun.

The Baretta MP9's character says I gots more bullets while the 93R says I gots even maor. The M1911 itself also has a character says 'pray that I miss', while the DE Mark XIX has a character says 'hope that I jam'.

As for Alpha, his Stechkin APB has a character that says "My name is the LORD, and I lay my hand in vengeance upon thee!"

Also, I'd like to point out that Nyromi(Omega) had a H&K USP- E .45 but lost it in the Kosovo Campaign(she used it as a booby trap). Afterwards she was issued PPK's but due to their size, kept losing them. Nothing special, she just plain kept losing it. So one day she requisitioned another PPK and the armory clerk slapped down an H&K VP70M.

Nyromi: What the hell is this?
Armory Clerk: It's what we got.

And it would remain her sidearm until her death. Later like Alpha's Winchester would later end up in the hands of Triela, Nyromi's VP70 would join Claes as her sidearm.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Sat 22 May 2010 - 22:14

@ElfenMagix wrote:Like I said before, the PPK has its own character that many other guns dont have.
Its not generic. But yes, because of US Laws, the PPK/S here must be sold instead ot the PPK. I have seen too many PPK/S labeled as PPKs. Other than size and ammo, there is little difference in appearance between the two, but the PPK/S is not concealable as the PPK is.

Funny though, I have seen .25 and .22 autos 1/2 the size of the PPK and they are for sale here in the US. There are even .32 Autos smaller than the PPK. North American Arms .32ACP Guardian is smaller; the .32NAA Fernando and Rachel uses is slightly larger than a PPK but not by much.
Yeah, the slightly larger size of the PPK/S is one of the reasons I chose to give Monty a vintage German (French? I think they were being produced in France at the time and stamped as "Ulm" due to the after effects of WWII) piece rather than a US manufacture one. good to get some confirmation on that then... all I had was what I'd read on Modern Firearms and Wikipedia, neither of which I'm willing to consider and be all and end all source.

I do like the Guardian I must admit. Did consider it when I was looking around for a weapon for Monty... but, well, as you said: the PPK has its own character that I liked.

As to the law that created the PPK/S... search me mate. I have enough trouble figuring out some of Australia's more retarded laws, let alone other peoples' as well

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Good ol Boy on Sun 23 May 2010 - 3:19

Okay, just thought I'd list the firepower used by my characters.

Murdoch:
Colt Government Model Series 70 Gold Cup .45acp

Murdoch is a bit of an old dog, and bought this new in the early 70s, about the same time he bought his Charger. He's rather set in his ways, and flatly refuses to upgrade to a more modern model.

Dusty:
Star M-40 Firestar .40 S&W

Given Dusty's love of the 1980s, this powerful little piece designed in the 80s is perfect for her.

Colt XM177 5.56mm NATO

This carbine was originally carried by Murdoch during his various operations in Southeast Asia during the 70s. Somehow it ended up in his private collection, and Dusty borrows it frequently. (The carbine in the picture is not a real XM177, but rather my AR15 I built to look like one.)

Sawed-Off Remington 1100 12 gauge

A solid room-clearer. A pump action like the 870 might be more practical, but nothing about Dusty is practical. Interestingly, Dusty insisted on this model after watching Sean Connery use one in Outland.

Kit:
Olympic Arms Cohort .45acp

Kit tries to make up for his small stature by packing as big a pistol as he can manage. Though it does get a little cumbersome.

Ruger MP9 9mm Parabellum

A nifty 9mm buzzgun, good for dirty work, and can be fitted with a supressor.

Beretta Model 21 .22 Long Rifle

With it's extended and threaded barrel and a supressor this little piece is ideal for the kind of quiet missions Kit is specially trained for.
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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 25 May 2010 - 15:38

@Kiskaloo wrote:Considering how epic Angel is with a blade (or two), I'm thinking Nol might take up bladed weapons - perhaps after seeing Michele practice kenjutsu. Maybe something like a tantō or a kodachi, along with a modern combat knife.

Here we go: the yoroidoshi or double-sided tantō:


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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Tue 26 Jul 2011 - 4:13

Well now, it's been awhile since I played this game...

So here's a bit behind the choices for the few non-fratelli fancharacter's I've posted here.


"Mary Christmas"


Got Glocks and a snubnose revolver. Namely the Glock 27 and 23.




The Glocks keyed into how I pictured her personality: function over form and, to me at least, the Glock sits firmly on the "function" end of that equation. The Glocks seem to get a good rap for reliablity, wight and in a pinch she can use the 23's mag in the 27... Plus they're like arses: every man and his dog seems to have one so they're easy to get parts for or have repaired. Something with a polymer frame seemed appropriate as well as "Mary's" all about the high-tech materials, whether it be in firearms, clothes, transport or gear.

As for the choice of the .40 round... it seemed like a good mix of power vs. availability vs. rounds in the magazine.... plus the .45 subcompact Glock was a bit larger than the .40.

Which brings us to the next point: why not a Glock 22 over the 23? To be honest I don't have a good answer to that other than "it didn't feel right".

As to the revolver:


I dunno, it needed to be something small and light, that could take the .357 Magnum round (because "Mary" will take the biggest bang for her buck she can get). As to why a revolver over some sort of pocket auto: it's her backup-backup/pillow gun, the gun she litterally sleeps with under her pillow... so it need to be simple to use and go "bang" every time. A revolver seemed like the logical choice.


As to Gene and Tim...

They use the Beretta 92FS



...because neither really digs guns; so will use whatever the Agency gives them the absolute minimum amount of time required to remain qualified and therefore employed.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Mon 29 Aug 2011 - 0:59

If we're talking the SWA in Italy, you'd never use .40 S&W. Impossible to find, and would instantly point to someone with access to outside sources of ammunition rather than some random thug. Personally, I think the Glock 27 is one of the worst concealed carry guns ever designed, but... it is handy if you never shoot it xD

By and far, any pistols that aren't in 9mm would have a hard time being justified for use in the SWA. Especially .40 S&W and .45 ACP, which are basically straight-up American rounds. .380 ACP is an extremely common defensive round, 9x18mm Makarov, 7.62x25mm Tokarev are common Russian surplus rounds, and 9x21 IMI is also common in some of the more gun control heavy areas.

I only ever participated in a GSG:America kind of story, so my choices would be rather unsuited to Italian use. I'll post about them if I ever dig up the old sheets.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Mon 29 Aug 2011 - 3:55

@John_234 wrote:Personally, I think the Glock 27 is one of the worst concealed carry guns ever designed, but... it is handy if you never shoot it xD
Reasoning? Mostly for my own curiosity... I come from a country which has made gun ownership difficult enough that my interest vs. work-required equation has seen it dumped firmly in the "too hard" basket. So any opinions I can get I'll happily listen to.

Regards the choice of .40 SW... "Mary" is not SWA, but (currently assumed to be at least) British SIS with a globe trotting scope. To be honest the weapons choices for her were made more to help juxtapose her character against my existing fratello (simply: she's something more of a blunt instrument, willing to sacrifice a certain amount of convinience for firepower) than any great level of personal know-how. Eventually it just came down to what felt right for the character.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Mon 29 Aug 2011 - 4:09

Oh. Well, you see the .40 S&W was designed as a cut-down 10mm Auto cartridge after the FBI specified a lighter version of the 10mm. They figured out a 9mm-size gun could fire that specific 10mm load, and made the .40. As a result, it's very high pressure, has snappy recoil and is loud, has a lot of gas in your face when you fire, but has good performance.

That's workable in a full-size pistol, but with a Glock 27 subcompact, all of that is made even more severe, basically.

Basically, the smaller you go with a gun, the worse it is to shoot.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Mon 29 Aug 2011 - 4:31

@John_234 wrote:That's workable in a full-size pistol, but with a Glock 27 subcompact, all of that is made even more severe, basic.
Ah ok... I do remember it being mentioned that they were a snappy little bit of gear when I was researching.

Either way, I'm still content to leave it as "Mary"'s concealed weapon... because I think those are tradeoffs she'd be willing to make for the slightly more effective round/interchangeablity with the 23... at at the end of the day she'll use the bigger pistol if she can. You'll note her revolver also carries the more powerful but more difficult to shoot chambering.

And cheers too.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Odon on Mon 29 Aug 2011 - 6:45

Pity the MISAR MU-50/G 'controlled effect' grenade isn't around any more - it would be perfect for the cyborgs!
It's Italian, small (so it can be held by the girls easily), and designed for anti-terrorist use (limited blast radius). They used them all the time in those Able Team novels I devoured back in the 80's, but alas the company that made them is now defunct. Still, the SWA could always come across a few crates stockpiled in a Special Forces armory...



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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Mon 29 Aug 2011 - 8:14

@Alfisti Well, just remember that the most common rounds worldwide are .380 ACP, .32 ACP, 9mm Parabellum, and most of the Russian rounds. .40 S&W, .45 ACP (though to a lesser extent), .357 Sig, 5.7x28mm are all going to be very rare outside of the US. Basically, 9mm is the world's preferred handgun ammo except for the US... kinda boring, huh?

And the Glock 27 thing is all opinion. A person uses the weapon that fits them the best, regardless of hypothetical pros or cons.

@Odon To be honest, though it's a neat idea it's probably not very practical. It's a hand grenade. You throw it. And due to design, it bounces, rolls and such. Unless you're a perfect throw every single time, it's advantage is fairly nonsensical, since you're only going to deploy grenades when there's nothing in twenty, thirty meters or so that's going to get hit by shrapnel - since besides the casing, the fuse, and sometimes the filling plug can actually do more damage than the shrapnel at a larger range.

So really, there's no advantage huge over the V-40 design, or any other "microgrenade," because precision isn't something a grenade is useful for.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 29 Aug 2011 - 11:12

@John_234 wrote:If we're talking the SWA in Italy, you'd never use .40 S&W. Impossible to find, and would instantly point to someone with access to outside sources of ammunition rather than some random thug.

Which is exactly why my original fratello used it - the CSI teams would never trace it back to an Italian government agency. Smile It also helps that they didn't use their weapons very often, so they were not leaving casings all over the place to mark a trail.

(And yes, I was aware of the round's background and history as well as Italian firearms laws when I made my choice.)

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Mon 29 Aug 2011 - 16:57

@John_234 wrote:@Alfisti Well, just remember that the most common rounds worldwide are .380 ACP, .32 ACP, 9mm Parabellum, and most of the Russian rounds.
Which is one of the reasons why I chose the 7.65mm round for my fratello. I figure they can get away with the smaller round as their focus in intelligence gathering rather than war-fighting... and again it was another character decision.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Mon 29 Aug 2011 - 17:54

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@John_234 wrote:If we're talking the SWA in Italy, you'd never use .40 S&W. Impossible to find, and would instantly point to someone with access to outside sources of ammunition rather than some random thug.

Which is exactly why my original fratello used it - the CSI teams would never trace it back to an Italian government agency. Smile It also helps that they didn't use their weapons very often, so they were not leaving casings all over the place to mark a trail.

(And yes, I was aware of the round's background and history as well as Italian firearms laws when I made my choice.)
IF you think about it, it's the other way around. If it was a random act of crime by a European, that would usually mean 9x19mm Parabellum, 9x21mm IMI, 9x17mm Browning, 9x18mm Makarov or something easy to acquire in the area - hence all the characters in the show using common, European made 9mm pistols. Even if they lost the actual handguns, it wouldn't be overtly implicating of government action.

Whereas, use .40 S&W, and it's almost certain it's the Italian government (Who could acquire such rounds!) or an assassin with ties to the United States - which would be a whole lot more political implication than the SWA really cares to clean up for the sake of one shooting, I'd imagine. The SWA doesn't want to incriminate itself - but it sure doesn't want to get Interpol involved over a single shooting, right?

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by MP5 on Mon 29 Aug 2011 - 20:59

I picked .45ACP for two reasons: The SWA can acquire a stockpile of it, and it has a reputation of reliability. Given that a lot of SWA operations employ cleanup crews, I do not believe that it is an issue, and I also believe there is still a certain cloak of anonymity even if CSI teams dig out some very unique slugs out of the bodies. In addition, my fiction is written in a somewhat movie-like manner, that is to say, certain realities are flouted, swept under the rug, or otherwise ignored to provide a certain escape from reality-- therefore, certain things do get pointed out from time to time (example in Chapter 7 being Allison freely running her Lancia Delta in New York when it was never cleared to be road-legal in the United States), but as long as it does not detract from people enjoying the story, I don't let it bother me.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 29 Aug 2011 - 21:03

Italian organized crime have links to their Italian-American cousins. It wouldn't be inconceivable for .40 SW weapons to drift over from one side of the pond to the other.

As for Interpol, I think it's almost certain that the SWA works with them.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Mon 29 Aug 2011 - 21:13

Well, the .45 ACP is actually pretty common worldwide due to the great proliferation of the 1911 pistol, and since it's not a military round anymore, it's actually somewhat a common civilian round in places with heavy gun control.

I think bottom line, criminal forensics is guided by Occam's Razor. The simplest solution is generally true. It's better to use a 9mm para in an Italian government action because they could immediately say, "hey, it could be any random criminal, crazy gun owner or such in Italy, or any of Europe." You don't want to give them freaking evidence to expect a government conspiracy, right? That's part of the reason the .22 LR is used in many assassinations.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Mon 29 Aug 2011 - 21:24

@Nachtsider wrote:As for Interpol, I think it's almost certain that the SWA works with them.
I think how the SWA liases with Interpol/Europol is probably a little bit of "work with" and a little bit of "don't tell"... so the SWA would work with them if it suited their needs and ditto for keeping other organizations well out of it because lets face it: a lot of what the SWA does is grounds for a fairly major political fracas. Maybe I'm overly paranoid, but if I was running the SWA or part of the Italian government I certainly wouldn't want to be letting on the girls' true natures unless I had some serious political dirt to hang over the other party's head. Even then I'd be dubious... because I like having all the leverage.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Tue 30 Aug 2011 - 13:20

The SWA is really the dirty trump card that the international community really doesn't want to talk about. I mean, Interpol and Europol would probably give as much support as would be deniable assets, I think.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Awinnell on Wed 31 Aug 2011 - 16:23

you are arguing the point about .40 and .45 Handgun ammo being uncommon in europe,Henriettas using a P90, 5.7 rounds are only sold to military users in Europe, so her gun points to a government connection,it is true that most of the handguns used in the story are 9mm,except Giuse's who uses the 5.7 round as well

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Wed 31 Aug 2011 - 17:41

Right. The story in itself isn't always consistent anyway but it is worth thinking about - depends how much detail you like to individually put into your work, obviously.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Wed 13 Jun 2012 - 8:35

Wow, I haven't been on this thread in forever. I guess I might as well post my stuff here, since I recently modified it. I'm only going to do a few, since I have so many.

Amsel's M4s

This rifle looks vaguely like Amsel's "general purpose" rifle, aside from the optic.

AR-15s are Amsel's signature weapon. They're generic, but immensely versatile and reliable enough for most any job, much like the man himself. They can be reloaded and fired in a very rapid manner, and jams are easily cleared. Though expensive and usually requiring much TLC, his rifles are expendable and he can acquire new ones in most parts of the world. Amsel is pragmatic - if he has a job and he's assigned an HK 416 or some bizarre knock-off AR-15, he won't care as long as it goes bang every time.

Amsel runs two basic builds. Both are fully-automatic, built from milspec parts and chambered in 6.5 MPC - a slightly obscure round, but harder-hitting and longer-ranged than 5.56. It goes in with a simple barrel swap, so Amsel can use 5.56 where a situation requires deniability. One is built with VLTOR parts and has a 10'' barrel for CQB use and an Eotech. The other is a more general piece that's 16'' with a longer handguard and a magnifier.

Les Baer 1911

This is a Nighthawk, and a limited run Chris Costa model. It's about as close as I could get to what Amsel uses.

For a long time Amsel was issued a Glock, and shot it quite well. But one of the marks of getting into SRT was carrying a locked and cocked 1911 pistol in .45 ACP. Its stuck ever since. The 1911 is an elegant, but brutally simple weapon that has been updated frequently throughout the years. Every individual gun is different, and the smallest parts of Amsel's handgun reflect his personality and mindset for a weapon. The checkering, high grip cut and custom grips are designed to reduce recoil by allowing a tight grip in any conditions, the Heinie sights are simple, yet fast to use. A light rail is for a compact Surefire light, since a handgun this big better have a flashlight. An extended slide stop, usually not seen on a tactical gun cater to Amsel's shooting style, as well as the magazine funnel and extended mags. The bushing is finger-tight but allows the handgun to get groups barely an inch wide at fifty yards in a Ransom rest.



Luce has some of the crazier guns.

Remington 700

The Remington 700 is a totally average rifle. Some would say it's actually lacking for precision work. But add a top-dollar stock and optic and many hours of tender customization from Luce, and you have a very accurate weapon. She has two nearly identical rifles. One is in .300 BLK and usually suppressed. The other is longer and fires the .338 Lapua Magnum.

The .300 BLK is normally used in short-barreled assault rifles. In a bolt-action with a suppressor, it is rather quiet, though calculating the path the bullet will take is quite convoluted. This combination is used at short range, where multiple shots might have to be taken in the same timespan. On the other hand, she uses a .338 version for shots at extremely long ranges, the Lapua being a very efficient cartridge with limited anti-material capabilities.

Springfield M1A Super Match

Though not the most accurate or ergonomic of rifles, this weapon was a gift from Amsel, and Luce seems to have some reverence for it. It's accurate enough for most work and has an excellent trigger. Luce favors the weapon for long-range work where there is generally more than a single target, and often runs it suppressed. She has on occasion run it as a "battle rifle" but this is rare.

The M1A is a civilian M14. It's a beast of a weapon that almost dwarfs Luce. Being less than perfect for her job, it's a very unique rifle for the role its being used in, and novelty seems to key into Luce's use of it. For all this, it is still extremely lethal and more than up to the job its tasked with.

SR-25 EM Carbine

Similar, aside from the optic and stock.

Amsel always told Luce she should have some sort of AR-15 variant, for practicality's sake. Eventually, she did get an AR-10 variant. The SR-25 is an extremely high quality rifle. This carbine is a cut-down version of the weapon, which is otherwise employed as a sniper rifle. It kicks hard, though not as hard as most .308s, its accurate, lighter and easily reloaded. To be frank, it has grown on Luce. When a mission does not call for a specialized close-range weapon like an SMG, or a long-range weapon like a bolt-action, Luce will lug around this battle rifle just to be prepared. It's equipped with a reflex sight for fast close-range use, and a magnifier allows longer range shots with some effort.

Dan Wesson Bobtail Classic


Amsel initially gave Luce a Glock. She saw how he used a 1911, and asked for one. Now discontinued, the Classic is a customized "Commander" sized 1911 pistol, made completely out of stainless steel and incorporating a "bobtail" mainspring housing which does not snag on clothing as easily. It's slightly smaller than a full size "Government" model, being easier to conceal yet having plenty of firepower. Being stainless steel, it's not light, which means it soaks up a lot of recoil for accurate fire despite its size. It doesn't hold many rounds, but then again Luce doesn't plan to miss.

Other Guns


A S&W M10 HB, interestingly enough is Amsel's bedside gun. Compared to the veritable arsenal he carries usually, this ancient .38 Special revolver seems mediocre. But its just part of Amsel's sentimental personality.


The Star Model-B is a 9mm 1911 pistol. Used notably in Pulp Fiction. They can be bought for less than a used Glock, and Amsel usually has dozens of these things in his various safehouses.


The Magpul PDR is well-liked by the pair. Fairly ergonomic for a bullpup, firing an effective round and very easy to conceal, it's a handy weapon. IRL, it's not in production, as the US military didn't offer interest. But I went with the alternate future aspect - it's just a great weapon concept.


Ask anyone - I don't really like H&K. But their G-36C is a very utilitarian rifle, if not possessing the best ergonomics. Amsel and Luce often use them as vehicle guns, or for security details where they have to look generic.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Lyndist on Wed 13 Jun 2012 - 10:36

EDIT


Last edited by lyndist on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 9:34; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 4:45

@John_234 wrote:
The Magpul PDR is well-liked by the pair. Fairly ergonomic for a bullpup, firing an effective round and very easy to conceal, it's a handy weapon. IRL, it's not in production, as the US military didn't offer interest. But I went with the alternate future aspect - it's just a great weapon concept.
I think I remember you suggesting this one a little while back when I was looking for a "techy" gun for a now defunct fratello concept... still looks like they watched way too much Ghost in the Shell... which isn't a bad thing.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 4:52

Funny thing - the guy behind the PDR build actually mentioned Gin an interview he's a huge Ghost in the Shell fan.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 4:55

Somehow, not at all suprised...

...Frankly I think the PDR should have been produced simply for looking cool. That said, I'm also all to aware of how much tooling, certifying, etc that sort of thing costs so...

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 6:24

It's a really good PDW layout and a logical offshoot of the P-90 concept.

The reason Magpul is making an airsoft toy of it instead of making a civilian model is because they're holding out for a juicy military contract.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Fri 15 Jun 2012 - 10:47

Out of curiosity, what are peoples' thoughts on the Beretta PM12:


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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Fri 15 Jun 2012 - 19:42

It's a rather typical Cold War SMG. Relatively comfortable, relatively accurate, relatively concealable. Not extraordinary, but its reliable. The Italians still use them, too.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Sat 16 Jun 2012 - 2:16

@John_234 wrote:It's a rather typical Cold War SMG. Relatively comfortable, relatively accurate, relatively concealable. Not extraordinary, but its reliable. The Italians still use them, too.
Excellent, that's actually pretty much what I was hoping to hear.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Tue 15 Jan 2013 - 20:36

Some people will find this funny considering how I yammered on and on about stopping power, but I've been seeing a lot of .380s and even snub-nose revolvers in use with my OCs.



.380 ACP is a bit weaker than 9mm Para. The big difference is most .380 can't reach the FBI's goals of reliable expansion with JHPs in 12-14 inches of ballistics gelatin penetration. Basically, your options for viable defensive loadings is pretty limited. Plus, most .380s are unlocked actions, which means they can jam easier if you 'limpwrist' generally speaking.

So the result is that often you get shooters who are smaller stature or less trained which have trouble with these guns. Thinner women looking for a CCW piece, for example. They're attracted by the cheap price, light weight and all that but aren't aware of the mechanical challenges.

Anyway, Gene uses .380s primarily. He has a Cz-82 from his work in Europe, and a Beretta 84 for the US.





In Europe, we don't find this "you need a .45" mentality, so .380s are a lot more accepted for say, police or military use. At the current day, where 9mms like Glocks have replaced most .380s, the pistols are nice for civilians who cannot buy currently used military calibers. Gene naturally would not carry a very large handgun which poses risks to carry around or whatnot, so the .380s are perfect for him. He's reasonably strong, decently trained and has a fairly flexible wardrobe.

A high-cap .380 is perfect for his needs for self defense. The Cz-82 is in many respects like an upgraded Makarov, with better controls and a sweeter trigger. He used it in 9x18mm for self defense in the mob, since it had been given to him by a mentor.

In the US, he decided he would rather not lose the gun, and picked up a Beretta with similar capacity and controls. The Beretta was a good deal larger in the grip, but he was more than familiar with the Beretta series, and liked the irony of changing to an Italian pistol after essentially being deported from Italy.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Mon 28 Jan 2013 - 7:35

Seeing as it got rolled out with Chapter02 of Meanwhile in Italy, I may as well talk quickly on Danilo and Raych's sidearm:

Danilo chose the Steyr M9-A1 for both fratello members:


If you asked him why he'd spout a lot about the 17 round magazine, very low bore axis making it easy to shoot, unusual but particularly easy to use sight, excellent ergonomics, accuracy and so on... all of which is true. However the fact of the matter is that it also looks new and futuristic (and if you throw a light/laser/combo on the front it looks like something out of Robocop)... and on planet Danilo new = better. Usually he carries it with a light attached and two spare magazines in a shoulder holster.

Raych uses exactly the same setup, at her handler's bidding, with the exception of carrying in waist band under a loose top.

I was originally going to have Raych use the S9-A1 compact variant, but changed at the last moment. The M9 itself isn't particularly large, and she's a larger girl (for her age)... and in the fratello's general combat role, capacity is probably more important than concealability as they rarely operate properly "undercover" in a properly clandestine sense. They're a fratello for headbutting things.

Also it seemed a very Danilo thing to do to decide that if something worked for him it would work for his cyborg.

The rest of the fratello's arms list is still being worked out.


As a side note, in his previous employment with the Guardia di Finanza's Antiterrorismo Pronto Impiego (Anti-terrorism Rapid Response) unit, Danilo was issued with the venerable Beretta 92FS:


He hated the gun as too large, too heavy and out-dated. However, ironically, at the start of the story he still feels more secure and comfortable with the Beretta than he does the Steyr he chose for the fratello.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Mon 28 Jan 2013 - 10:59

since i got many OC in my sleeve...so here's th reason behind their choices..among all of them, i'll show the Harunami twins with their Handler's weaponry choices-

Yuki's handler is Kai, former Sharpshooter of Japanese SDU forces. Because of this, most skill were inherited by her handler, which her proficiency to marksman skills. On the "Other side" after her defeat against Ernesto during the Raid in Tokyo, she began to learn CQB style fighting, employing Battle rifle to her CQB skills.

Yuki's loadout-

AI AW (L96) sniper rifle- her first and official sniper rifle, this rifle saw combat within all mission participated by Yuki. she usually use the AWS designation(Suppressed version), firing subsonic round of 7.62x51mm round. she also can switch barrel to accomondate the normal version of AI AW.

RT-20 anti Material rifle- first time used during her participation of the mission rescuing Italian cargo ship in Somalia, she usually use this rifle to engage light vehicle or killing a target far away. Since the bolt mechanism of this rifle were located to the left, Yuki had no trouble using this as one of her sniper rifle.

Barrett M95- her second and official sniper rifle. she usually carry this sniper rifle with L96 AW as secondary sniper rifle. with the Bullpup design, Yuki easily conceal this sniper rifle on a mission while retaining the same devastating effect to Barrett M82 sniper rifle.

MK 14 Battle rifle- this rifle is the only rifle she used for engaging close quarter battle.

Arisaka- Given by Kai as her present during her visit/mission to japan, it was later revealed that Kai bought the weapon to remember her father (Which was later revealed in chapter 60 of "The other side"). She usually use the bayonet supplied with the rifle for close combat purpose, and later the weapon for killing her arch-enemy, Ernesto.

Beretta 92fs (Inox version)- Her official sidearm. Her sister also share the same pistol to her, giving them the nickname "Inox sister".

Other weapon- Yuki also used M200 Cheytac, Scar-H,with desired optical sight,STI 2011 pistol,Beretta 93R raffica, and FAL battle rifle.

Kai's loadout-

HOWA Type 64 (Marksman version)- His primary weaponry in any combat. the reason he use this rifle is because his trademark of using Japanese weaponry in his loadout. since this rifle was never exported to outer country except Japan, Kai managed to arrange the delivery to him, despite he's now staying at Italy. since Howa Type 64 use 7.62x51 NATO, it's easy for him to acquire the ammunition needed by the rifle.

M24 SWS- Kai's official sniper rifle. he even use the same rifle during his days in the Japanese SDU force.

DENEL NTW 20- His secondary sniper rifle and his support weapon (Altough he never used it in the fanfic "The other side")

Beretta 92fs (Two tone version)- His official sidearm. he use this pistol so that he could share the same ammo to his cyborg.

Other weaponry: Kai also used M200 cheytac, DSR-1, and Sig P228 Tactical.

Next up is Yuki's twin sister; Ai-

Ai's handler is Yamato, former special operation soldier of "JSDFST team 13". Ai's skill more heavy to assaulting and Close quarter battle, like her handler.

SCAR-L (optic may vary depending on her choices)- Her primary assault rifle. Most battle took place in her presence, SCAR-L usually used by her. the reason she chose this rifle is because the availability of SCAR-H rifle in the SWA armory and the lacks of Eastern 5.56 rifle in italy.

MP5A3 (With Eotech 511 attachment)- her primary submachinegun. used in time of contingency, this SMG used with Suppressor for better stealth for her.

Benelli M3- she use this shotgun when breaching the room. Also she use this shotgun with Scar-L.

Beretta 92fs (Inox version)- Her official sidearm. Her sister also share the same pistol to her, giving them the nickname "Inox sister".

Other weaponry- Ai also used M24 SWS, Mp7,FMG9,P90,CZ97B, and SIG P228 Tactical.

Yamato's loadout-

Howa Type 89- keeping the eastern influence to himself, Yamato used this assault rifle because he's most comfortable with that rifle. he managed to acquire this rifle; with kai's helping, out from Japan to Italy.

BENELLI M1014- his primary breaching weapon. he usually carry this shotgun in any mission. since the semi-auto mode helping him to clear the room faster, he also used Flechette round (close packed enemy) or using X12 taser round for subduing the enemy alive.

Beretta 92fs (Two tone version)- Also using the same sidearm to Kai, he use this pistol so that he could share the same ammo to his cyborg.

Other loadout- Yamato also used Remington R780,Sig P220 Tactical, and custom-made UZI(modified for faster rate of fire, equip with aimpoint optics)
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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Mon 28 Jan 2013 - 13:56

@Piero wrote:

Gina:

PGM Ultima Ratio: A very accurate bolt action rifle chambered in 7.62x51mm. Gina's favorite sniper rifle is one of these in "Commando II" configuration (a configuration she finds suitable for carry in an oblong type viola case thanks to it's folding stock and relatively short barrel). It should be noted that Gina -thanks in part to her left handedness and cyborg strength -it capable of using this weapon more effectively then one might think at close range, as she is capable of holding the weapon's grip in her left hand and working the bolt with her right.

her sniping technique resemble my technique XD... i operate L96 and Barrett M95 with left hand to the trigger, right hand to the bolt Razz
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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Mon 28 Jan 2013 - 18:10

@Alfisti wrote:I was originally going to have Raych use the S9-A1 compact variant, but changed at the last moment. The M9 itself isn't particularly large, and she's a larger girl (for her age)... and in the fratello's general combat role, capacity is probably more important than concealability as they rarely operate properly "undercover" in a properly clandestine sense. They're a fratello for headbutting things.

Also it seemed a very Danilo thing to do to decide that if something worked for him it would work for his cyborg.

The rest of the fratello's arms list is still being worked out.

Spoiler:


It's not particularly big for a full size service sidearm, but it is what it is, IMO. A Glock 17 isn't the easiest gun to conceal. I guess it's justified from Danillo making a slightly impractical decision standpoint, though IMO I'd think they'd both use compact models, if they needed one handgun to do everything. Lots of people do the same with the very handy Glock 19.

Spoiler:

@Alfisti wrote:As a side note, in his previous employment with the Guardia di Finanza's Antiterrorismo Pronto Impiego (Anti-terrorism Rapid Response) unit, Danilo was issued with the venerable Beretta 92FS:

He hated the gun as too large, too heavy and out-dated. However, ironically, at the start of the story he still feels more secure and comfortable with the Beretta than he does the Steyr he chose for the fratello.

You're absolutely right, the 92F is a collosal handgun.
Spoiler:



The PX4 is much more favorable:
Spoiler:

I think Italian special forces often use the Glock though, as does most of Europe. So it's certainly an option as far as high-tech wonder nines go. But the Steyr is a unique and interesting choice~

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Mon 28 Jan 2013 - 19:44

@John_234 wrote:It's not particularly big for a full size service sidearm, but it is what it is, IMO. A Glock 17 isn't the easiest gun to conceal. I guess it's justified from Danillo making a slightly impractical decision standpoint, though IMO I'd think they'd both use compact models, if they needed one handgun to do everything. Lots of people do the same with the very handy Glock 19.
Yeah, the decision to go full-size was mostly a result of Danilo's background: he's done very little undercover work in his time and is more used to kicking doors in, so his thinking is swayed by those experiences hence capacity won over concealability... and yes, in all reality it is probably a somewhat impractical decision; but what Danilo thinks he's in for and what he's actually going to get aren't always the same thing.

Plus character wise I like the slightly impractical decision...


@John_234 wrote:You're absolutely right, the 92F is a collosal handgun.

I think Italian special forces often use the Glock though, as does most of Europe. So it's certainly an option as far as high-tech wonder nines go. But the Steyr is a unique and interesting choice~
The Glock was on my radar at the time, but I think the aesthetics of the Steyr (whether he would admit it or not, even to himself) would have made the decision for Danilo.

I'm not sure what handgun APTI use, information seemed a little thin on the ground, however the Guardia use the 92fs, and it does make a nice counterpoint in-story to have Danilo compare the two firearms.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by John_234 on Mon 28 Jan 2013 - 22:53

@Alfisti wrote:Yeah, the decision to go full-size was mostly a result of Danilo's background: he's done very little undercover work in his time and is more used to kicking doors in, so his thinking is swayed by those experiences hence capacity won over concealability... and yes, in all reality it is probably a somewhat impractical decision; but what Danilo thinks he's in for and what he's actually going to get aren't always the same thing.

Plus character wise I like the slightly impractical decision...
Right. 'course, you could always stick a longer mag from the full-size model into a compact gun, just in case.


@Alfisti wrote:The Glock was on my radar at the time, but I think the aesthetics of the Steyr (whether he would admit it or not, even to himself) would have made the decision for Danilo.

I'm not sure what handgun APTI use, information seemed a little thin on the ground, however the Guardia use the 92fs, and it does make a nice counterpoint in-story to have Danilo compare the two firearms.
That is true. If he had used the Glock changing over to the Steyr M9 would mean less as they're both similar in concept and construction, as opposed to the Beretta, which is fairly radically different from either handgun.

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by Alfisti on Sun 1 May 2016 - 3:35

Since J+M's story is now effectively over, I thought I might round out with a few of the things they (and, later, Katherine) wound up with during the course of 6 Degrees.

While both are, per SWA order, permanently armed, a 7.65mm PPK and similarly chambered P230 are not really optimal things to be bringing should one be expecting a proper fight. Of course, being a cyborg, Monty's pistol also has sentimental value to her, and the last thing she wants is to lose it so, when things when all fruit-shaped in Hong Kong, one of their first priorities was to find some alternatives. With both the SIS and Chinese Military Intelligence breathing down their necks however, options were going to be limited, so what they wound up with was...


...a Type 54 each. Carrying 8 rounds of Chinese 7.62x25mm, and basically a clone of the Russian Tokarev, it's still a somewhat outdated design, not to mention the pair the Blackers wound up with were not exactly the most pristine examples. However it's also reliable and, having been the standard-issue People's Liberation Army sidearm for years, easy to get a hold of and cheap. It also put J+M at a fun disadvantage, and was old enough to match their aesthetic.

Good thing they swapped for their regular weapns for the Type 54s too, as those were eventually lost. They were however quickly replaced by...


..Browning Hi Powers. Without giving too much away, so, spoilers...
Spoiler:
...it needed to be something an SIS Station might have had a stock of, or been able to get a hold of easily, right down to the filed off serial numbers. The pistol itself of course, though used by the British military, is still usefully ubiquitous.

Again though, it didn't hurt that the design is old and British enough to suit their story aesthetic.

At the same time, they also got MP5s, though honestly that was mostly because I needed a generic submachine gun which was again not so modern as to throw the look of the thing (and I didn't think I could quite get away with Stens or MP40s).

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Re: Behind the choices...

Post by San and Flo on Tue 17 May 2016 - 8:22

Letrice:

P90: Due to general reliability for CQB operations.

Floro Mk-9: Philippine heritage.

MSSR: Philippine heritage.


San:

P90: As above.

Glock 17: No reason.

M3 Grease Gun: Philippine heritage and mods.

AK-47: General reliability. A reference to his past.

AKS-74U; CQB.

FAL: To act as his own makeshift DMR, thus it is fitted with an ACOG.

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