The importance of glass...

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The importance of glass...

Post by Piero on Tue 9 Jun 2009 - 23:37

This is an issue I'd been trying to work out with Mikhail via PM, and finally cut myself off on because I figured I was sending the poor guy too many messages (I seemed to be introducing a new issue with each response).

Anyhow: As some of you know, Diana has a G3-SG/1 as one of her main weapons, and has for a long time. Problem is, I've long been unsure of what sort of optics she should mount on the thing. I hope to resolve that issue using this thread. As such, I'm going to try to lay out the wide range of issues I'm facing with the choice as well as the options I've narrowed things down to.

One important point about Diana's G3-SG/1 is that it's part of her 'readily available' arsenal. It's one of two primary weapons (the other being her HK53A3) that frequently travels with her. These two primaries between them, while not ideal for every situation, are supposed to allow Diana to handle most of the situations she is likely to encounter when on assignment. A G3-SG/1 can apparently be capable of sub 1 MOA groups with the right ammunition, so I think it's accurate enough for her purposes, the question is what to mount on it to ensure it's capabilities are properly accessible.

One major factor I need to figure out is whether Diana's handler view this rifle as an "up to 600 meters" weapon or a weapon that is designed to reach out farther. The two main rifles the GIS (Gruppo di Intervento Speciale, Diana's handler's former unit) is generally listed as having are the PSG-1 and Mauser 86SR, which seem to have scopes set up for ranges up to 600m (6x Hensoldt on PSG-1, 1.5-6x Zeiss on the Mauser). However, this information may be somewhat dated, and it's possible they have newer and more powerful optics nowadays (plus there's no guarantee they tended to go with the original optics on their rifles anyways). The PSG-1A1 H&K recently released mounts a 3-12x Schmidt and Bender, and some Italian units outside the GIS are known to have received SAKO TRG-42 rifles in .338 Lapua magnum. The GIS of the GSG verse is probably important enough given the political instability to get funding for new equipment such as better scopes. But on the other hand -they're a Counter Terrorism unit -would they necessarily see much need for more powerful scopes that allow them to reach beyond 600 meters?

So basically, I need to figure out whether Diana is really trained much for ranges beyond 600 meters (she is supposed to be one of the better sharpshooters among my OCs, but...) and given that and other factors what her optics are.

The options I have are as follows:

Original G3-SG/1 optics: a Zeiss 1.5-6x optic. Her handler might be familiar with this from previous use of the rifle as well as previous use of other rifles with sights of comparable power. Problem is, the scope apparently uses an older, difficult to use method of rangefinding, it lacks modern illumination, and it really isn't set up to rangefind past about 600 meters, though it can apparently be used at longer ranges by a skilled shooter.

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/LayingFoundations.asp -Has an image of the reticle for this scope.

There is also apparently another model of 1.5-6x that was used on the G3-SG/1, this one an S&B, but I suspect a lot of the issues would be similar.

1.5-6x Zeiss/Hensoldt: A newer 1.5-6x, apparently used on the SiG SSG 3000 series of bolt actions. Has illumination, but it's only tritium (tritium is restricted in Germany, and I've heard scope manufacturers there aren't always generous with the amount they use). Also, it's apparently only adjustable up to about 500m, though it can apparently be had with a reticle design which allows for longer range shooting. Doesn't seem to have much in the way of rangefinding according to the pick below, I wish there were more pictures of the available reticules (another pic I saw was just a simple crosshair, with no readily apparent rangefinding features).

http://shop.livioptik.com/osc/product_info.php?products_id=1923

Schmidt and Bender 1.1-4x Short Dot: A fairly new sight. Looks to have some form of rangefinding in 4x mode, and should be reasonably accurate, thought magnification is kind of low for longer ranges, and Piero might be more comfortable with 1.5-6x for this class of weapon (it should be noted that he already uses one of these scopes, but on a short barreled 5.56mm carbine, not a high powered 7.62mm rifle). Has electronic illumination, but only for a dot, the rest of the reticule is just black lines.

http://www.schmidtbender.com/reticlesPM.htm -See CQB reticle.

Schmidt and Bender 3-12x Police Marksman II: A very modern sight, used on the PSG-1A1 and some high powered bolt actions. 12x is arguably a bit high for a G3-SG/1, but it would definitely allow exploitation of the rifle's potential for long range accuracy. Available with modern rangefinding (mildots) and partil illumination of the reticle (just the centre though).

Those are pretty much the options. I've been considering listing the rifle/optics combinations used by some canon characters as well as some of my OCs in an attempt to put Diana's weapon in context, since I think that could be important, but this post is already pretty insane as is...

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by Awinnell on Wed 10 Jun 2009 - 8:25

remember to take into account the superiority of the cyborgs eyesight

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 10 Jun 2009 - 8:49

At times I wonder whether they really even need scopes.

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 10 Jun 2009 - 9:31

I mount a Carl Zeiss 1.5-6x Zeiss scope on my personal HK93 and I find it excellent.

Mind you, I'm not sure you can reasonably expect to reliably hit a target at 600m with 7.62. At that range, I'd be using the SAKO TRG-42 rifles in .338 Lapua magnum. Amadeo used it to engage a target at 800m in my fiction Under the Radar.

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by Piero on Wed 10 Jun 2009 - 12:24

I believe the US Army considers the M24 to have an effective range of 800 meters, and I've heard of shooting beyond that with 7.62mm. Though I gather 'effective range' for sniper rifles tends to vary a lot with weather conditions.

Regarding that Zeiss, Kiskaloo, do you know what model it was? What sort of reticle it had? Or how difficult it was to do rangefinding and such with it? (Don't know if you did the last part with it, but figured I'd ask.) It's possible it's even pretty much the same model some of the rifles I've been mentioning used, but I'm not sure.

As for scopes and cyborg eyesight -well, they may have better eyesight then an ordinary person, but they do seem to use scopes. Angelica and Rico have in both anime and manga, and the WA2000 Henrietta used in the anime mounts a fairly powerful scope as it's standard optic (2.5-10x).

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 10 Jun 2009 - 12:40

I haven't fired it in years, so no I don't remember the details. It wasn't too hard to dial it in at the range.

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 10 Jun 2009 - 16:37

You have to consider 1 of 2 things:
1) Your cyborg's eye, are the natural or cybernetic?
2) If natural, then an scope is needed. If Cybernetic, it is not needed, although s/he would have to learn how to use the metal sights in lon distance shooting. Most scopes are that you just dial in the distance and the proper sight angle is adjusted in the crosshairs.

Once you figure that out, then you can go ahead with talk of scopes and firing ranges, and so on...

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 10 Jun 2009 - 16:55

Rico, Angelica (notice the size of the unit on her gun in my Signature) and Henrietta have all been shown using scopes in the anime and in the manga, and Elsa would have before Giuse relieved her in the anime.

Therefore, the girl's eyesight, while better, is obviously not on the level of the Six Million Dollar Man (even if -Il Teatrino- did do that craptastic "zoom lens" effect with Henrietta when they were chasing the terrorists on Patricia's moped).

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 10 Jun 2009 - 17:06

I would argue that they cyborgs are using natural eyes for most of the cyborgs, though it is hinted in Promessa/Vegetable Gardens that Claes' eyesight would be fixed. How it is not stated, but Lasik surgery would be a very simple solution.

Another hint to this is Triela's final battle with Pino. When he punched her in the eye with the key- she lost that eye in a very bloody way- suggesting that the eye was a natural eye. If it were an artifical eye, though damaged, it would not have been so easily destroyed and such a bloody manner, IMHO... She was later on given an artifical eye, and the jury is still out on its functionability...

Note- of the cyborgs that we do know- Henrietta has at least one artifical eye (the left one if I remember correctly), but she either shoots with both eyes open or uses her right eye for scopes.

In UN Resolution, the Character Fernando stated to Alpha about Francesca's eyes;
Fernando: Certain things just can not be hidden, unless you’re a cyborg.

Liesel: What do you mean?

Fernando: Those cybernetic eyes, they do not lend themselves to emotional pupil reaction… yeah… looking into Francesca’s eyes when she says she loves me, there is nothing there because they are just two miniature TV cameras wired to the visual cortex of her brain.

Alpha: Liesel, he means the window to a person’s soul.

Fernando: In this case, they have been bricked over and painted to look like windows. There is nothing in there that can be seen, except, maybe the reflection of what she sees on the tempered glass cornea or a slight hint of the CCD circuitry in the back of the camera wall hidden in darkness.

Note here, that it was never stated in either current stories that Francesca's eyes were ever replaced, and in the story I'm working with Boomer_Gonz, (SPOILER ALERT) Dr. Frankenstein did not replaced them in her original construct.(/SPOILER ALERT)

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 10 Jun 2009 - 17:26

@ElfenMagix wrote:I would argue that they cyborgs are using natural eyes for most of the cyborgs, though it is hinted in Promessa/Vegetable Gardens that Claes' eyesight would be fixed. How it is not stated, but Lasik surgery would be a very simple solution.

Claes doesn't need corrective lenses. Raballo himself stated he had the corrective lenses removed and replaced with glass. So she may have had corrective surgery done or she may have had artificial eyes installed.

As to Triela bleeding from the eye, notice that it stops pretty quickly, which is generally not the case with humans. It makes sense to me that the cybernetic systems need some type of liquid lubrication/cooling system and they might as well make it look like human blood so when it does leak out of them, people aren't freaked out because it's pink or purple or green or brown.

As to the physical strength of said eye, optical quality glass is still glass. Pino smashing into it with the force he did using the key would likely crush it.

Also, considering the amount of augmentation they do, it makes no sense to me for them to not replace the eyes since they are one of the most vulnerable parts of the human body to damage.

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 10 Jun 2009 - 17:46

You maybe right and I may be crazy...

But I'm considering the amount of nuero connections the surgery must involve for connect one artificial eye into place. Unlike the ear (with a choclear implant or simillar), it is just a stimulus wire to the inside of the Choclea and the nerves are triggered from there.

Other options can include surgeries of the eye like cataracts eith enhanced tecnologies and artifical retinas (still in the artifical stage) which electrically stimulates the natural retinas.

Most eye injuries do not gush out blood, but the internal eye liquids inside (Victorous Humorus and Aqueaous Humorus). What blood that comes out is little in flow unless the major arteries and viens are hit and from head on it is not. A side angle cut can damage other eye supporting structures, and that would bleed as well. Something like a key to the eye would not have cut those arteries/viens but a longer knife would have. The Human eye is about the size of a ping pong ball, so to get a key that deep inside, it would have to be a very long key.

In checking the images of Henrietta shooting (on google image search since I'm at school right now), it shows that she aims with her right eye with what ever weapons she maybe using. We know that it is her left that is her cybernetic eye (minimally) and thats not the eye she's shooting with. This is odd, if the Cyber eye is the better eye.

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 10 Jun 2009 - 18:18

This assumes, of course, that when they replaced her left eye, they did not also replace her right eye. I posit they did both.

As for visual prostheses, it sounds like they are getting relatively advanced, and of course Italy's capabilities in the manga are well beyond what is available now.

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by Piero on Wed 10 Jun 2009 - 22:02

I think Diana's eyesight is good, but not insanely good. The girls seem to use scopes, and I figure she does as well.

Although I've been thinking that Sabina, another of my OCs, likes to use an EoTech holosight on her AR-10T when the situation allows. I've heard of some sharpshooters doing that. Although I wonder how I should justify that if her handler is the type who tends to shoot with a scope on sharpshooter missions. He admitedely allows her to choose her own weapons, but you'd think his training would factor into things somewhere...

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 10 Jun 2009 - 22:07

Thumbs up to you Kisk on the link research.
I knew about a few of these options in past years.

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by MikhailN on Wed 24 Jun 2009 - 10:03

Group discussion does throw up many interesting ideas and viewpoints

@Piero wrote:Although I've been thinking that Sabina, another of my OCs, likes to use an EoTech holosight on her AR-10T when the situation allows. I've heard of some sharpshooters doing that. Although I wonder how I should justify that if her handler is the type who tends to shoot with a scope on sharpshooter missions. He admitedely allows her to choose her own weapons, but you'd think his training would factor into things somewhere...

EOTech is a reflex sight and is commonly used for rapid engagement. The dot in the centre is 1MoA and the circle is 65MoA. I've not heard of sharpshooters using reflex sights for engaging targets if they can help it or if a centre-of-mass shot is sufficient and the range isn't that long

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by Piero on Wed 24 Jun 2009 - 23:06

I seem to remember reading about EoTechs on sharpshooting rifles on several occasions. IIRC they were on a M-14 being used in a DMR role in Iraq, rifles used by the US Coast Guard (this one is the most sketchy, I'm having trouble dragging stuff up for it now that I've been trying to find sources), and AR-10 someone was evaluating for use by Police sharpshooters in Urban environments.

Basically, it seems like there are some people who find unmagnified optics useful for making precise shots at relatively short distances. To some degree I think this might kind of fit for a GSG, but one problem is simply that I think her handler is used to magnified sights and would probably have trained her on one. The handler in this case gives his charge an unusual degree of autonomy with her weapons selections, but still...

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 24 Jun 2009 - 23:38

If you can make it work, with simple explainations and very little use of Handwavium, then by all means, go for it.

I know you're a prefectionist, but seriously. The research has to stop somewhere for you to write up the story. If you fudge up an explaination, dont worry about it, and simply continue writing the story.

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by Piero on Thu 25 Jun 2009 - 0:30

It's really my detail freak nature in general that slows my fanfic writing down, not just research on issues like this. I've actually started then gone back and made changes later when it comes to these sorts of issues, what really slows me down is that I'm very picky about how I phrase paragraphs and stuff. Even paragraphs that aren't that important except to connect other things. I tend to have more luck with RPGs, where my standards for the flow of the writing are different.

Also, I actually tend not to be super detailed in my writing. I often find that mentioning too many little details gets in the way of the flow. But I like to be sure that I'm on solid ground myself, even if a lot of the information never makes it to the audience.

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by MikhailN on Thu 25 Jun 2009 - 3:10

@Piero wrote:It's really my detail freak nature in general that slows my fanfic writing down, not just research on issues like this. I've actually started then gone back and made changes later when it comes to these sorts of issues, what really slows me down is that I'm very picky about how I phrase paragraphs and stuff. Even paragraphs that aren't that important except to connect other things. I tend to have more luck with RPGs, where my standards for the flow of the writing are different.

Also, I actually tend not to be super detailed in my writing. I often find that mentioning too many little details gets in the way of the flow. But I like to be sure that I'm on solid ground myself, even if a lot of the information never makes it to the audience.

Let me try to help you out there. Are you familiar with Anton Chekov and his gun? That's an interesting literary device you need to take note of. Ok granted details add to the realism to the story but when it gets out of hand the story becomes very complicated. That won't be good for a relatively fast-paced setting like GSG where the flow of a gunbattle is lost if you devote half a paragraph to the description of say, the kind of shoe the girl is wearing. Unless, of course, two paragraphs down she stamps on a bad guy's crotch with a three-inch stiletto.

My advice to you is: Plan your storyline out and see which details contribute nothing to the plot or the setting in the reader's mind. I know writing a good story is hard (I did one myself. Took 2 straight days to finish) but I'm sure you can do it.

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by LoC978 on Thu 25 Jun 2009 - 11:41

Chekov's gun:
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."
...talk about leading your audience... the point is valid in that, if you include too many details, the story is boring. But the same is true if you include too few. A story that doesn't contain any unnecessary scenery or detail tends to come off as merely leading the audience from point A to point B without trying to make 'em feel as if they're there.

Moderation is the key, as usual.

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by Piero on Thu 25 Jun 2009 - 12:00

Mikhail, I think you're misinterpreting, though that's probably my fault for using a poor choice of words. Honestly, what tends to slow me down is that I tend to pay a lot of attention to how I phrase paragraphs and stuff moreso then technical details. I'll admit I sometimes get distracted doing research on things, but I think it's the 'how do I make the writing in this paragraph flow smoothly' bit that gets me. I really dislike anything being at all awkward, stilted, unnatural, odd, etc, and I'm really picky about how I put things when writing fanfics. For some reason I tend to have a bit of an easier time with RPGs.

As for technical details, I tend to include some, but not necessarily all. I tend to find getting too detailed with designations can start to seem, well... odd... somehow. Sometimes describing a weapon as simply a Steyr AUG seems a lot more natural to me then describing it as a Steyr AUG A2 or Steyr AUG A3.

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Re: The importance of glass...

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 25 Jun 2009 - 21:36

@Piero wrote:As for technical details, I tend to include some, but not necessarily all. I tend to find getting too detailed with designations can start to seem, well... odd... somehow. Sometimes describing a weapon as simply a Steyr AUG seems a lot more natural to me then describing it as a Steyr AUG A2 or Steyr AUG A3.
I would introduce the character and weapons she uses in detail in the first chapters, and then generic terms for them later on in the story.

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