They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

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They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Guest on Fri 12 Jun 2009 - 21:46

Gunslinger Girl is an amazing series that not only explores deep philosophical questions but also makes you CARE for the characters. This ‘CARE’ is the inspiration behind my following brainstorm. If this is the inappropriate thread to place this post or to rant at all, I sincerely apologize and would ask that you remove this post. Anyways, here goes:

Having recently watched both seasons of the Gunslinger Girl anime and read up to Chapter 59 in the manga, I can’t help but wonder why the SWA with extremely deep pockets doesn’t give their field agents and multi-million euro cyborg assassins any specialist equipment? I will be discussing 4 categories of this equipment: 1.) precision guns, 2.) weapons attachments, 3.) explosives and 4.) body armor.

1.) PRECISION GUNS:

The weapons that Section 2 uses in the field are by no means mediocre but the problem lies in that fact that 1.) many of these weapons are standard issue “out of the box” with no attachments/customizations and that 2.) there are better precision-tuned contenders out there. For example, why not hook Rico up with a PSG-1 (or any other more advanced semi-auto sniper rifle)? Advanced sniper systems like the Hecate and the WA2000 seem to be only used on a ‘when absolutely required’ basis. It’s not just sniper rifles – all the weapons in Section 2 should be precision weapons with match grade ammo. Why not give the talented Triela a SPAS-12 or a Pancor Jackhammer (if you are going for the coolness factor)? How about using custom-tuned Sphinx-3000’s as the standard issue pistol? Or in the case of my favourite character Angie, if you can get nanotechnology from the US, why not get her an OICW prototype too? Or perhaps the SWA should engineer some unique weapons from scratch?

Even if they are only marginal improvements that cost an arm and a leg, these weapons fit the breakneck operational requirements of Section 2 and its high-tech foundation. Whether you look at it from the operational performance standpoint or the sentimental view, these little GSGs deserve/need the best weapons that money can buy. And besides, you’ve already spent billions, there’s no point in skimping out on a few thousand. Super weapons need super equipment plain and simple. Take note that most weapons issued to Special Forces around the world are not only the best ‘out of the box’ but are painstakingly fine-tuned to get the most out of them. Besides the performance gains, there is also reputed to be a positive psychological effect associated with knowing that you have the best gear out there. Some of these girls need some more self-confidence and if having a top-notch weapon customized by the USMC Precision Weapons Section helps, why not?

2.) WEAPONS ATTACHMENTS:

Besides the weapons themselves, the lack of mission-appropriate attachments – especially silencers – surprised me a lot. I recall silencers only being used by Rico in her hotel rampage (episode 3 season 1) and by Elsa with her SiG551. Aren’t silencers more or less standard issue for assassins everywhere? Red-dot (laser) aiming attachments would have been helpful as well since the girls have been quite off the mark sometimes during practice and actual combat. The basic idea is that there are a countless array of attachments from tac-lights to reflex sights that could have assisted various missions. These attachments are by no means big/heavy and taking a select few or even a pack of them along on all missions would have added greater flexibility at only marginal inconvenience.

3.) EXPLOSIVES:

There are many times in the GSG series when a certain objective/challenge just screamed explosives! Would it bankrupt the SWA to get some M203 attachments or a 6-pack of HE grenades? Even though it would have been a very anti-climactic end if Angie had simply lobbed a few 40mm grenades at Franca and Franco’s getaway car (instead of the Thelma and Louise ending), having some form of explosive handy is virtually an axiom for any self respecting Special Forces operative or assassin.

Of course carrying more equipment, especially bulky explosives, brings up the important issue of concealment – carry too much stuff and people get suspicious. Besides, a Milkor MGL would be hard to fit under a sundress right? Fair enough, but as a minimum, you’d still expect someone in the fratello to be at least carrying a grenade or two as part of the ‘explosive’ element. Indeed, the appropriate use of grenades – especially flashbangs for CQB situations would have saved the girls a lot of nasty scruffs.

4.) BODY ARMOR:

The last point I’d like to raise is on the topic of armor. Even though the cyborgs are highly resistant to bullets and knives, they still bleed and take damage all the same. Ballistic armour has evolved a great deal from those bulky flak vests of WW2 – now there are types that are very light and form-fitting to be worn under clothing. For the cyborgs, replacing a piece of damaged body armor would certainly be more economical than replacing an arm used to block bullets instead. Since GSGs are ridiculously strong for their size, one would assume that the modest increase in weight would be of no concern in terms of mobility. The case is even more compelling for field agents and the handlers who cannot withstand a barrage of fire unlike their cyborg partners. While casually strolling the streets of Italy in full-body tactical armor is simply ludicrous, a concealed bullet proof vest can easily fall as standard issue. There are times when body armor seems unnecessary but also many times when it seems ABSOLUTLELY necessary. Specifically, the lack of any protection during Section 2’s all-out assault (i.e. raiding the terrorist safe house to save Claes) and area-defence (i.e. protecting the test bridge against Franca and Franco) operations seems inexcusable.

SO WHAT DO YOU GOOD PEOPLE THINK?

DISCLAIMER: This post is meant for solely DISCUSSION and is by no means a critique of Gunslinger Girl. I was just wondering if you guys thought that there could have been better equipment considerations. I am by no means a gun expert or tactical analyst, so I apologize for any technical flaws in my suggestions. My view is only that if there was a gun out there that was even 5% better or some extra piece of gear that may have helped out, these girls (especially Angie =P) should have gotten them. And no, I do not think that it’s possible to spoil a cyborg.


Last edited by Kiskaloo on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 16:45; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Corrected title)

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 12 Jun 2009 - 21:48

Personally? I think all the dough went into R&D.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 12 Jun 2009 - 21:58

I imagine the wide variety of weapons the girls use is a mix of factors:


  • The title of the manga - the more guns, the better;
  • The "private side" of the SWA at least answers to the Ministry of Defense, so they are probably supplied by them, as well. Many of the weapons the girls use are standard-issue within the Italian Armed Forces.
  • Each of replacement and repair in the field. Highly-specialized and custom weapons, if damaged, could become unusable because the skills and/or tools necessary to fix them are not available in the field.


I would expect all the girls use Match rounds or other high-quality ammunition on a mission and then shoot the cheap stuff at the range.

As for body armor, their bodies likely already likely meet CEN prEN ISO 14876 Level 4 and perhaps even Level 5. We've seen Triela take 5.56NATO in the gut at point-blank range from an assault rifle and it just honked her off (well, it did knock her on her arse and she said she really felt it).

As for the handlers, I imagine they wear tailored ballistic vests (likely to CEN prEN ISO 14876 Level 3) under their suits. There are companies that make ballistic vests that look and wear like a sleeveless sweater vest under a sport coat or suit jacket.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by maverick375 on Fri 12 Jun 2009 - 22:21

Personally? I think all the dough went into R&D.

Good answer. +1

The guns they use are more often than not a practical gun. Tuned guns simply are not practical for real combat because you spend four times the true value for the same reliability you can get out of a box. This is a reason that Glock has held the market so long. A partial tune, like with a 1911, is commonplace now and almost all armorers can do it in their sleep. In actual combat, a $1500 gun is going to perform the same as a $500 gun.

Above all else in the SWA, secrecy is paramount. When someone in the government budget office starts looking at reports and wondering why a humanitarian department needs fifteen top-of-the-line sniper rifles, you would think they might come to the conclusion it's not for site security. I'm not saying that they're keeping it a secret from the government completely, we know that isn't the case. But the less noise you make, the better off you are. They can justify the money for bionics research so far, because they have a 'legitimate' operation going as well. If someone twinges to the realization that they are buying enough hardware to outfit an army, the cat's out.

Body Armor: Find body armor in a child's size. Now buy a bunch. Now try to fit a dress over it.
When the adults are out in an assault or a knowingly dangerous situation, they wear a vest. We've seen Jose wear one several times. They just aren't practical for the kiddies, especially in their roles as children. A vest is also not practical for daily wear, especially in summer. As to why they wear it some times and not others when knowingly going into battle... It's the way the story goes.

Optics: People will obscess over optics in fan-ficts, but the likely reason it's not used in the manga is for the same reason they're not used overly so in real life: not practical. A pistol with a mounted light/laser requires a special holster. It's bulky, can snag, and adds weight to the gun, if marginal. If you don't use the special holster, where do you keep the light? Where would Henrietta keep one?

I try my best to carry concealed daily, and unless I know I'm going out at night, I don't carry my streamlight because it's just another weight that I have to fuss over where I carry it.

On rifle optics, it's probably just been something Yu Aida has not delved into so much. If more of the guns the SWA used were M4's maybe they'd use Aimpoint sights or something. Most of the guns used have an ideal optic already mounted, like the P90 and AUG. Maybe the carry pistols have Trijicon Night sights installed and we simply have not seen them. Short of an extreme close-up of the sights, you would never be able to tell them from originals.

I'm not trying to down on your interest or your question, but sometimes you just have to remind yourself it's a story. Feel free to write your own like many of us are/have, and include what detail you want. That's what's nice about fanfict.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Guest on Fri 12 Jun 2009 - 23:44

Thanks for the reply guys, those are very valid points that you raise. I'd like to address some of your points if I may.

On the point of the practically of custom tuned weapons in the field:
-There is the implicit assumption that much of Section 2's operations are very short-term. Since they aren't going on a month long tour of duty in the boggiest area of Vietnam, the chances of a weapon failing in the field only after two or three clips is extremely small.

-Furthermore these girls and their handlers are only going around Italy so virtually all the maintenance can be done at HQ. Ideally you'd have more than one of each precision weapon so you can take turns bringing them out into the field while the others are being repaired.

The core logic behind precision weapons was that when fighting a quick skirmish in an urban environment, accuracy is a critical concern. Having the fastest fire rate and other 'bells and whistles' would also increase the chances of a successful op. Reliability/maintenance is important don't get me wrong, but it is ideally only a major concern for prolonged deployments in the field. This is probably why weapons like the PSG-1 are only used by elite police units and not by the army as top-notch rifles certainly do not like being dragged through the mud.
A very important point that may have been overlooked is that some custom-tuned weapons like those made for the Navy SEALs are extremely durable -- much more so than their standard counterparts. Basically, it is possible to get more performance without sacrificing reliability. But of course, you'll have to add a zero or two to your bill.

On the point of the budget:
-The implicit assumption here was that another $100 000 Euro or so can easily 'fly under the radar' or at least be disguised. Getting equipment from foreign channels should not be a problem either since the SWA seems very well connected. After all, it is only an order for 5 or 6 units from the account of a security services company in the Cayman islands right? Right.

On body armor:
-Even though the girls are highly bullet resistant, the idea was that having replaceable outer armor would be much cheaper than having to perform surgery on them every time they are hit.

I can see that some things like the optics may be immaterial at times, but always carrying a silencer around would be good operational protocol. Having a few flashbangs handy seems reasonable as well. So in the end, do you guys think that Section 2 gear is good enough as it is?


P.S: I am brainstorming a fanfic ... what kind of instrument case would be good for 'bigger' (non-bullpup) ARs?

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by MikhailN on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 3:03

I think the guns they use is sufficient. At the range they handle (less than 100m) , 'spray and pray' is quite enough. Optics and laser attachments aren't worth the money spent.

Also, rare stuff would raise a few eyebrows. Just imagine how strange it would look for an agency to be buying a DSR1 (those are made almost exclusively for the German Border Police i.e. GSG9). Someone will start doing background investigations.

As for your bit about body armour, I don't think Kevlar vests come in 'small girl' size and even if they manage that, they would look so bulky that if Jose told you Henrietta was a normal schoolgirl you wouldn't believe him.

Then you mentioned silencers and flashbangs. Yes they do carry those. Henrietta does the silencer bit complete with subsonic for her P90 and Marco did the flashbang thingy

You like to mention the PSG1. Well, we have to remember that the girls are smaller sized than us. The SVD is light enough for Rico to handle. Also, SMGs are common because of their size in CQB so unless they need more stopping power, SMGs and pistol are here to stay.

As for the instrument case, did you see how Triela stashes her shotgun? Chapter 3

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by West Nile on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 4:21

well looking at the girls and the guns they are equipped something tells me it's the handlers providing the gear.

due to Joze's habbit of showering Henrietta with new stuff, she tends to get the expensive guns

due to Jean's plain brutality, Rico seems to get 1st dibbs on italian army weapons which Jean has access too, last i checked sniper rifles aren't that big in italy so Rico has no access to newer ones from the military

however, Hilshire has stated several times that he could get Triela a new gun but then she would always reply "what i have now is fine, i'll use it till it breaks or some Padania assissin beats me unconcious and takes it from me again"

this also explains why most of the girl's and their handler's guns come from the same companies

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by kamajii on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 4:34

About bodyarmor. Handlers wear it. But, even lightest bodyarmor is very remarkable on 12-years old girl's shapes.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Awinnell on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 7:33

kamajii wrote:About bodyarmor. Handlers wear it. But, even lightest bodyarmor is very remarkable on 12-years old girl's shapes.

not so much these days








Miguel Caballero designs fashion with a difference - the type that keeps bullets from entering your body to do nasty things to your innards. These bulletproof polo shirts each contain a kevlar lining on the front and the back which looks nearly invisible to the average eye. Each can be fitted with three different layers of protection, depending how serious your enemies are out to get you: low protection which stops .357, 38, or 9mm; medium protection which halts a 12 gauge or Mini Uzi; high protection which stop .44 Magnum or MP5.

Each shirt is tailor-made and comes with thermal regulating material so you won’t roast in your own juices underneath the shirt. And each come in a choice of colors such as Ensign Blue, Chili Pepper and Star White. Be prepared to shell out some serious green for this type of protection, however. Each of these shirts start at $12,000. But if one of these shirts keeps you from being terminated, I’m sure you will say it was well worth the cost.

Read more at Miguel Caballero via OhGizmo!

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by MikhailN on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 8:00

Awinnell wrote:Miguel Caballero designs fashion with a difference - the type that keeps bullets from entering your body to do nasty things to your innards. These bulletproof polo shirts each contain a kevlar lining on the front and the back which looks nearly invisible to the average eye. Each can be fitted with three different layers of protection, depending how serious your enemies are out to get you: low protection which stops .357, 38, or 9mm; medium protection which halts a 12 gauge or Mini Uzi; high protection which stop .44 Magnum or MP5.

Each shirt is tailor-made and comes with thermal regulating material so you won’t roast in your own juices underneath the shirt. And each come in a choice of colors such as Ensign Blue, Chili Pepper and Star White. Be prepared to shell out some serious green for this type of protection, however. Each of these shirts start at $12,000. But if one of these shirts keeps you from being terminated, I’m sure you will say it was well worth the cost.

Read more at Miguel Caballero via OhGizmo!

Ok I'm sold. The wonders of modern technology. What next, actual cyborg girls? Guh?

But do those things actually work? Anyone has a personal testimonial to share? Very Happy Jokes aside, it's still kevlar, so I don't expect miracles. Kevlar works by spreading out the force of the projectile so that it doesn't concentrate on the point of impact and plough through the shirt and ultimately, you. It may stop one or two 9mm parabellum FMJ but how will it face up against a long and accurate burst? Also, since the force is transferred to the wearer, the poor guy's internal organs will still take some trauma. Bottom line, if the bad guy empties a mag into Henrietta, she'll still be out of action with most of her organs damaged.

This is useful in case one of the bad guys get lucky (and they seem to have the Luck O' the Irish most of the time) but not something like claymore mines.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by kamajii on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 8:30

Awinnell wrote:

not so much these days
low protection which stops .357, 38, or 9mm; medium protection which halts a 12 gauge or Mini Uzi; high protection which stop .44 Magnum or MP5.

Firstly, I don't have seriously trust for commercial advertisment. Creator of first silk bulletproof jacket clamed the same things. Smile
Secondly, It is difference between occasionaly shoot and intensive close combat as GSG-s have part.
Thirdly, the SWA enemy use military weapon often. Even P90 break through cevlar bodyarmor at 200 m. I saw video from Chechnya, when SVD break through military body armor on some hundreds meter. VSS Vintorez can defeat bodyarmor class 2-3 at 400 m. If GSG-s needed bodyarmor, they needed class 3-5 with titan or ceramic enforcment. Class 1-2 they have by they's own bodies. Smile

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 10:13

Well the 5.7x28mm ammunition used in the FN P90 was specifically designed to penetrate body armor.

Also, we need to remember that the SWA uses very advanced composites for armor - composites that likely do not exist in the "real world". When Sandro and Petra were extracting Rosanna and her daughter and are attacked by that armored BMW X5, Petra's bullets bounce off the car and Sandro notes that they're using the same CFRP armor that the SWA developed.

So it is quite possible that the girl's CFRP muscles are naturally extremely bullet-resistant which is why bullets tend to either bounce off them (pistol rounds) or do minimal penetration (rifle rounds). In my OC fictional universe, the handlers all tend to wear "undershirts" of this stuff and something the thickness of a cotton t-shirt would stop a 124 grain 9x19mm FMPJ traveling at ~415m/s (equivalent to CEN prEN ISO 14876 Level 2).

Obviously, the best body armor uses ceramic / metallic plates behind it. I expect the girls have these plates forward or behind their ribcages. And the handlers would have something like the ballistic executive vests with the plates molded into the weave.


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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 10:14

Kiskaloo wrote:As for body armor, their bodies likely already likely meet CEN prEN ISO 14876 Level 4 and perhaps even Level 5.
Not only that, but it would take away from their super hero type aura. They just don’t seem as fearless wearing body armor. But that’s strictly from a story point of view…

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 12:22

Neo: "So what are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?"

Morpheus: "No. What I'm trying to tell you is that once you're ready, you won't have to."

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Guest on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 16:24

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Working_dog_in_Afghanistan,_wearing_a_bulletproof_vest,_clears_a_building.jpg
A self-explanatory picture I really like. If they can make body armor for doggies, I'm sure they'll be able to make body armor for kids (see the great post earlier about $12K 'designer' armor).
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1552956.ece
Furthermore, it's become a trend in Britain to have their children wearing kevlar enhanced jackets (stab vests). It's not so much explaining why your little girl is pudgy (I'm sure there's alot of innocent and creative explanations that you can give) but whether or not they can bear the heat in the summer. Even if your GSG is wearing slightly heavier exposed armor, people may just assume she is a VIP from a rich family out with her big brother or bodyguard. But indeed if relatively cheap modular 'body armor' components are already installed INSIDE the girls then by all means outer armor is irrelevant for these little kiddies. Otherwise, I still get the feeling it might still save them some money. Outer body armor meant to be light and concealable may not be able to block a rifle bullet, but in the end it might lead to less stress for the girls with a less invasive surgery. I guess the body armor issue boils down to not so much protection but simple economics -- would easily replaceable modular internal or outer armor save a few bucks? Using nanotech to graft artificial skin onto cybernetic parts can't be cheap...

I'm pretty confident that those avid gun experts out there can find similar specialized contenders for the weapons that these girls have right now. Since Rico and her sniper rifle (Dragunov) were brought up a few times, I'd like to propose a similar replacement:

DRAGUNOV SVD vs. PROPOSED USMC DMR (M14 tinkered with by the PWC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Marine_Corps_Designated_Marksman_Rifle
In terms of weight, the Dragunov weighs 4.3 kg (w/scope, unloaded) compared to the DMR's 4.5kg. So not a big difference there.

In terms of length, 1225 mm vs. 1118 mm -- the DMR is actually shorter. (The shorter SVDS is 1135mm so they would be both about the same).

They both have an effective range of around 800m~ but you can probably guess which one is more accurate. Yes it probably cost a bundle more to mod it that way but I'm sure the SWA wouldn't go bankrupt over that. Advantage to DMR.
In addition, the DMR has a slightly higher muzzle velocity and can take a 20 round clip vs. the max. 10 rnd clip of the Dragunov.

In terms of reliability/maintenance my earlier argument remains that the short missions will make the chance of failure
extremely small and that returning to HQ for any maintenance and/or repairs should be adequate. However, the DMR is built rugged enough to handle a reasonable amount of dust and scratches (remember that these are deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq). Some people may argue the Dragunov is even more reliable/easier to maintain but come on, you're only going into Rome and not into the Amazon right?

With the difference in ease of maintenance marginalized, the DMR is a clear level up from the Dragunov. I guess the main point of contention will be just how MUCH better the DMR would be in these operations in terms of a cost-benefit analysis. I personally think this is only a MARGINAL improvement at best.

Regardless, even if it were only 5% better, I'd still get it for them if I were the guy in charge. For me it's not only a care thing (getting a hug from Rico would be nice ^^), it's an image thing too. Padania already has more than just a hunch that there are some kind of government super-assassins out there. So might as well go for max. fear factor. One of our cyborgs can take out 10 of your guys, one of our guns can buy 10 of your bargain bin arms. We've got the people and the budget -- might as well call it quits now.

I remain confident that the people who actually see the GSGs in action won't live long enough to even begin to wonder why a small elementary school girl is wielding a $9 000 rifle imported from the other side of the world.

ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANY WEAPON REPLACEMENT SUGGESTIONS OR SOME HIGH-TECH GADGET THAT SHOULD BE ADDED?

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Awinnell on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 17:11

i'm guessing the main reason that the SWA doesn't use hi tech unusual modified guns is that they are a ' Covert ' unit,so using odd guns and ammo would leave a pattern that even the stupidest cop could follow,Henrietta's P-90 uses odd ammo for example,most of them use 5.56 assault rifles or 9mm submachine guns and pistols,these are more common in Europe ,Rico's Dragunovs ammo is also easy to come by,so basically every time Henrietta cuts loose she leaves a major forensic sign behind !

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by West Nile on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 22:14

yes but who ever knew that a little girl dished out those rounds Laughing

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 22:18

West Nile wrote:yes but who ever knew that a little girl dished out those rounds Laughing

Padania knows there is a government group called "The Agency" that uses child assassins. They just don't know they're cyborgs.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by West Nile on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 22:20

lately that is true, but during Henreitta's berzerk scene, it was just a rummor

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 22:24

West Nile wrote:lately that is true, but during Henreitta's berzerk scene, it was just a rummor

It's been mentioned a number of times. Cristiano warned Franco and Franca that "the Agency" had sent a child assassin to Montalcino, which is why Franca pulled a gun on Aurora - she thought she was the Agency assassin.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by West Nile on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 22:29

but when Cristiano warned the other guy while they wer in florence, the guy was like "you have got to be kidding me, you seriously believed the rumors?" not actual text

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 22:39

On major missions (at least), clean up crews are sent in to do the forensic work. Its only when Marco or Hillshire go out to work on their own does there seem to be some minor issues that they can get out with a flash of a badge and some smooth talking. Even then, the SWA makes a few calls to make sure that somebody is there to help out. So as for a Forensic Trail... lets say that the SWA is the goose that eats Hansel & Grettal's bread crumb trail.

My problem that I see is that the SWA (and ultimately Yu) makes the mistake of sending in the girls on high risk operations where military should only operate. The current story line is true of this. Season 1, Episode 12; and I forgot which one but when the girls went after rouge military officers- though successful was supposed to be a military mission. The girls were created to be able to hide and strike from within the public (as I see it). But Lorenzo stated in Epi 12- "...we have to take high risks at times..." I question when is the risk too high, and when do they refuse to not take a mission? Since V9, the last 2 major missions have costed cyborg and civilian lives and destruction of property.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by West Nile on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 22:48

well it would apear that Lorenzo's quest to impress the government would mean he would take everything less of taking the cyborgs abroad

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Piero on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 23:00

It's nice to have top notch gear, but as long as your gear is reasonably good the deciding factor tends to be the operator. There's not a lot of point in getting too obsessed with having the latest and greatest kit, IMO.

What actually tends to bug me about the SWA is the lack of standardization among the weaponry. Especially with the really oddball stuff. Okay, I can see there being a really wide range of weapons, but shouldn't there at least be a tendency for the armoury to keep stocks of common weapons for the cyborgs, handlers etc. to draw on? IE, have a rack of P-90s here, a set of M-4s here (Italian Spec Ops now uses em), some MP5 variants over here...

But in canon we have all these little personal arsenals, often with exotic weapons that don't seem to have much justification for their use over a more common weapon of similar capability (Marco's Steyr GB is an example, and Petra's Brazilian made Beretta 92 derivative is perhaps an even more glaring one).

Though Yu's system does allow for some variety, at least.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by rshackleford on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 23:25

Yeah, I've always wondered the same thing, because there's some obscure guns in the arsenal, like Petra's Spectre.

With the handlers, I can understand it coming down to personal preference, but the girls should be proficient with whatever they're give. Granted though, if it was standarized, we wouldn't have such an interesting collection of weapons to talk about.

Henrietta and Jose must be the biggest pain to equip, since they both use 5.7mm rounds from FN.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by LoC978 on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 2:30

I've always thought of that as merely being the handlers' personal preference. For the purposes of my fanfiction, I've depicted the handlers as personally buying their cyborg's weapons for the most part, and only requisitioning anything they can't procure on their own.
I also figure the SWA's armory does contain some standard-issue equipment, to be used by regular agents (Section one, or Ferro's team)... and I suppose the handlers could draw from that, if they so chose.
As for ammo, FN 5.7x28mm isn't hard to find, especially for a government agency (who would be able to order Armor-Piercing SS190s in bulk).
...and Marco has probably been using that Model GB since the late 1980s.


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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by kamajii on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 2:48

About standartization in SWA. I think that most of operations of 2nd department is dirty work and standart police or military weapon used by them follow to disclosuring of SWA.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by sasahara17 on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 3:58

Just a random thought, but perhaps the reason that there is little standardization among the Cyborgs can be chalked up to data gathering purposes? Given how the Cyborga are used to test out various experimental prosthetic, maybe the use of different weapons is a way to test out something.

Probably a miss on my part, but thought I'd throw in my two cents.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 4:02

An interesting thought.

This brings another question to mind.

If the girls lead to some sense of specialization, which one would be the multitasker?

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by MikhailN on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 7:21

boomer_gonz wrote:An interesting thought.

This brings another question to mind.

If the girls lead to some sense of specialization, which one would be the multitasker?

You contradict yourself. Specialization and multitasker?

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by tsundere9kagami2 on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 16:11

I specialize at multi tasking specific skills

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 17:47

boomer_gonz wrote:An interesting thought.

This brings another question to mind.

If the girls lead to some sense of specialization, which one would be the multitasker?
The girls are specialized on target hunting and killing, ie: "We will go into this building and shoot to kill or maime (if we need survivors to question) anyone in there who is not SWA staff or tied upp hostages."

Point the girls into the general direction and send them off onto their jobs and for the most part, it will be done.

Now, you want them to multi-task?
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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Piero on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 23:19

LoC978 wrote:...and Marco has probably been using that Model GB since the late 1980s.

I wouldn't be so sure. He hasn't always been in the Police or the SWA, and I'm not aware of the Steyr GB ever being produced in a calibre that's civilian legal in Italy.

As for the handlers acquiring things personally -I imagine they'd generally be doing a lot of it through other people at the agency. Most of the guns the GSGs use are ones that you'd need connections (either with government or the black market) to get ahold of in Italy.

As for Kamaji's point on deniability -we've already seen the SWA use guns that are used by Italian Police and military units. In fact, a fair bit of their arsenal consists of guns that have been used by such units (though often Spec Ops rather then regular units). Plus, if that's really a major concern, some of the weapons I'd think that arsenal might stock are pretty common. The Beretta 92 and MP5, for instance, are used all over the place and have been produced in large numbers. Though I'll admit some others that might be desirable for the armoury to stock (like the P-90 or SiG SG series) aren't so widely proliferated. And M-4s actually require some kind of end user certification for export.

Seriously though, I wasn't even suggesting that the agency use exactly the same stuff as general Italian police and military forces (though I can see some of those guns, like the Beretta 92, being stocked). But it seems like their should be a sort of general armoury that's drawn on. I think there's a case to be made that we shouldn't see so many guns that are exclusive to one character. There's a logical case to be made for several characters making use of some of the more logical and effective choices.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 0:16

The problem with using police armourment and fire power is that criminals can easily outpower/outgun police departments.

If one is going after known criminals tht work outside the law and public safety, one has to use weapons that are equal to what they could put up a defense for or top of the line stuff that will go through anything.

Or you can do (my OC) Rachel's thing and thats taking head shots if they dont go down after the first couple of rounds...

But guns are like cars. If you have a law enforcement agency that will grant the freedom and flexibility (within reasons) for their agents to pick and choose their rides and weapons, one will take what they like and what they are used too. Very rarely one will take something off the shelf they know nothing about all because they think it looks cool. Here is the case where functionality and usability = Keeping One's Ass Alive. The enemy is not going to allow you manual reading time when you get an on the field jam and you require some research to unjam it!

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by MikhailN on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 1:29

ElfenMagix wrote:The problem with using police armourment and fire power is that criminals can easily outpower/outgun police departments.

If one is going after known criminals tht work outside the law and public safety, one has to use weapons that are equal to what they could put up a defense for or top of the line stuff that will go through anything.

Weapons are chosen for their function. If bad guys take hostages in an aeroplane on the tarmac, you DO NOT storm the aircraft holding an aging M1 rifle with 5 5-round clips. Similarly, you DO NOT pick an M2 Browning for a conceal-carry mission on the streets of Sicily. The girls are usually exposed to such conceal-carry missions where the priority is stashing the firearm, getting up close and hosing the poor chap. Bearing in mind the small size of the girls, the best weapons for this purpose are pistols, SMGs and for the bigger sized girls (Triela), shotguns. Assault rifles and LMGs, though they have been used on the streets of Iraq, are really not suitable considering the rifle's almost two thirds their height.

By the way, the purpose of firearms in most police departments is primarily deterrence and personal defence is secondary. That's why the local 'special' teams have a different set of stuff to conduct room clearing and hostage rescue.

ElfenMagix wrote:Or you can do (my OC) Rachel's thing and thats taking head shots if they dont go down after the first couple of rounds...

Just to let you know, there have been cases where the bad guy is shot in the head, falls down, and after a while he stands right back up and continues battling policemen. Granted the police were using FMJ rounds and not other kinds that are deemed more suitable (Hollow-Point and Hydra-shok rounds. Those are a morality issue by themselves)

ElfenMagix wrote:Here is the case where functionality and usability = Keeping One's Ass
Alive. The enemy is not going to allow you manual reading time when you get an on the field jam and you require some research to unjam it!

I'm under the impression that most Immediate Action drills revolve around the basic SPORS (Slap magazine, Pull back bolt, Observe chamber, Release bolt, Squeeze trigger). When I was handling my service pistol, the combat clearing drill was a quick tap-rack-bang so that we could clear the jam and engage in under 2sec. So if you really need research to clear an IA then you're better off drawing a secondary weapon, neutralizing your target and taking his gun

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by kamajii on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 4:14

Piero wrote:
As for Kamaji's point on deniability -we've already seen the SWA use guns that are used by Italian Police and military units.
OK, but GSG-s use SVD (Russia), Taurus Milenium (Brazil), M1891 (USA), AUG (Austria), MG3 (Germany), etc. I think this create problems for police (and society in common) to identify SWA operations as operations of government structure. I think it's no bad kind of camouflage. Smile

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by boomer_gonz on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 4:17

ElfenMagix wrote:
Very rarely one will take something off the shelf they know nothing about all because they think it looks cool. Here is the case where functionality and usability = Keeping One's Ass Alive. The enemy is not going to allow you manual reading time when you get an on the field jam and you require some research to unjam it!

And this is where OSP training comes into play. I'm surprised that even the canon hasn't explored this useful tactic.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by MikhailN on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 5:15

boomer_gonz wrote:And this is where OSP training comes into play. I'm surprised that even the canon hasn't explored this useful tactic.

What's OSP? Puzzled

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by boomer_gonz on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 9:24

OSP stands for On-Site Procurement.

Basically, it's where a soldier/operative/agent/other type of badass mofo; has ebough generalized training in a variety of weapons and equipment that he/she can more or less pick up anything and run with it.

The advanatge's of this are the never ending supply of firearm's and equipment you'll find off the people you've killed. The main downside is the ease in which even the most highly-trained can forget which weapon their firing.

For example if a -see above- has picked up 9mm after 9mm and suddenly picks up a .45 offhanded; his battle awareness will be thrown off by the sudden recoil and weight of the weapon.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by MikhailN on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 9:34

boomer_gonz wrote:OSP stands for On-Site Procurement.

Basically, it's where a soldier/operative/agent/other type of badass mofo; has ebough generalized training in a variety of weapons and equipment that he/she can more or less pick up anything and run with it.

The advanatge's of this are the never ending supply of firearm's and equipment you'll find off the people you've killed. The main downside is the ease in which even the most highly-trained can forget which weapon their firing.

For example if a -see above- has picked up 9mm after 9mm and suddenly picks up a .45 offhanded; his battle awareness will be thrown off by the sudden recoil and weight of the weapon.

Oh. That. That's used only in emergencies when your SPORS or tap-rack-bang or whatever IA drill you're taught cannot clear that bout of bad luck. The reason for that is because you have no idea about the condition of the weapon. That bout of bad luck my be so bad that the weapon you pick up has a double-feed and the bad guy was killed because of it. Also, when you bend down to pick up another weapon or magazine, you're not looking around you and someone may just shoot you while you're at it.

Instead of OSP why don't they teach the girls IA drills? Henrietta obviously doesn't know a thing about it.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 10:27

The real reason they carry and use all manner of firearms is because the title is Gunslinger Girls.

The audience expects to see girls and they expect to see guns. So the girls all carry different weapons so we get "maximum gun effect". It would be boring if every girl carried a Beretta 8000 / Beretta 92 pistol or a Beretta M12 SMG.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Guest on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 15:43

What about the SWA and explosives? Rocket launchers and RPGs would certainly be impractical to carry and use for the SWA's missions. Justifying their use anywhere near the public seems pretty much impossible.

But how about HE grenades or grenade launchers? They would certainly be effective for the area defense and stop-the-car missions. Ideally their yield/firing velocity can also be tinkered with to ensure the minimum amount of collateral damage.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Awinnell on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 16:23

stun or gas grenades maybe but not frag,to risky in a narrow old Italian street

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 19:40

Kiskaloo wrote:The real reason they carry and use all manner of firearms is because the title is Gunslinger Girls.

The audience expects to see girls and they expect to see guns. So the girls all carry different weapons so we get "maximum gun effect". It would be boring if every girl carried a Beretta 8000 / Beretta 92 pistol or a Beretta M12 SMG.
Good Best Explaination Ever!

boomer_gonz wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:
Very rarely one will take something off the shelf they know nothing about all because they think it looks cool. Here is the case where functionality and usability = Keeping One's Ass Alive. The enemy is not going to allow you manual reading time when you get an on the field jam and you require some research to unjam it!

And this is where OSP training comes into play. I'm surprised that even the canon hasn't explored this useful tactic.
I thought about this, but decided against it for my current stories.
I may use it on Francesca's branch of 'The SWA Beginnings' we are working on. It seems to make some sense for that time frame to use such tatics.

MikhailN wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:The problem with using police armourment and fire power is that criminals can easily outpower/outgun police departments.

If one is going after known criminals tht work outside the law and public safety, one has to use weapons that are equal to what they could put up a defense for or top of the line stuff that will go through anything.

Weapons are chosen for their function. If bad guys take hostages in an aeroplane on the tarmac, you DO NOT storm the aircraft holding an aging M1 rifle with 5 5-round clips. Similarly, you DO NOT pick an M2 Browning for a conceal-carry mission on the streets of Sicily. The girls are usually exposed to such conceal-carry missions where the priority is stashing the firearm, getting up close and hosing the poor chap. Bearing in mind the small size of the girls, the best weapons for this purpose are pistols, SMGs and for the bigger sized girls (Triela), shotguns. Assault rifles and LMGs, though they have been used on the streets of Iraq, are really not suitable considering the rifle's almost two thirds their height.

By the way, the purpose of firearms in most police departments is primarily deterrence and personal defence is secondary. That's why the local 'special' teams have a different set of stuff to conduct room clearing and hostage rescue.

Actaully, the smaller gals have used bigger guns in both the manga and anime. It is their cyborg strength that allows them to do this, and not let things like weight or recoil be an issue.

MikhailN wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:Or you can do (my OC) Rachel's thing and thats taking head shots if they dont go down after the first couple of rounds...

Just to let you know, there have been cases where the bad guy is shot in the head, falls down, and after a while he stands right back up and continues battling policemen. Granted the police were using FMJ rounds and not other kinds that are deemed more suitable (Hollow-Point and Hydra-shok rounds. Those are a morality issue by themselves)

I have seen and heard it happen when I was with both the 'agency' and the police dept of NYC. Not going into variables as to why this happens, lets agree that it does. But in my stories, my OCs do use HydroShock ammo, and headshots are usually above the eyebrow, so that the bullets end up in one of the frontal lobes and not between them. Yes- my characters are real mofos in terms of killing.

BTW- NYC Police uses 9mm Hollow Points.
When my financaes and paperwork are restored, I'll be getting a American Amrms 1984... again.

MikhailN wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:Here is the case where functionality and usability = Keeping One's Ass
Alive. The enemy is not going to allow you manual reading time when you get an on the field jam and you require some research to unjam it!

I'm under the impression that most Immediate Action drills revolve around the basic SPORS (Slap magazine, Pull back bolt, Observe chamber, Release bolt, Squeeze trigger). When I was handling my service pistol, the combat clearing drill was a quick tap-rack-bang so that we could clear the jam and engage in under 2sec. So if you really need research to clear an IA then you're better off drawing a secondary weapon, neutralizing your target and taking his gun

1911s, you pull the locking lever down and pull the slide back. Other guns, you pull/push a locking mech to unlock it, and pull the slide back partly and then foward. Others you pull back or push foward and then up. A few, you just push foward after unlocking it. The .23NAA by North American Arms, you pull back to clear the jam, and then foward to remove the slide to clean it. But most would not know this since most have not ever used a North American Arms Pistol.

I have seen my friend's Colt 9mm 1911 jam so bad because the casing got crushed between the slide and the rail. It took a lot of strength to even budge the slide out, and we spend an hour surveying the damage and cleaning out the gun. I seem another friend's collect 1873 Peacemaker jam when its cylinder locking ball bearing jammed and started to cut a grove into the cylinder. We got it apart, and found a broken spring forcing the ball bearing too hard against the clyinder, but he had to send it to a restorer to get it fixed and restored in firing order and excellent appearence. It cost him over $200 in labour and alomst $400 in parts to get it done.

My point is not on knowledge of clearing out guns, but in using OSP training, it says, 'use what is available until its useless, discard it and aquire another.' Spending time in clearing out an aquired weapon will guarentee you becoming dead meat- 2 seconds or not withstanding. If you have not noticed some of the GsG stories in FF.net and elsewhere, when the unexperienced author discuss guns, they put in descriptions that are no where near the mechanical operation of the gun being used. If in real life one is not trained into the weapon of their choice, they are going up be up Shits Creek without a paddle. Not many here have fired off a old 1803 Kentucky side-by-side double barrle shotgun, or 'Nam era weaponry in real life... Evil
(Boomer knows what I'm talking about...)

Cool weapons should be left on the store or armory shelves until the character learns how to use it in the best and worst of conditions. The enemy is not going to allow you to read the manual so that you can clear a jam... This is my point. I have seen idiots buy brand new cars and do not know how to change a tire on it if it were to go flat.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by MikhailN on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 20:08

ElfenMagix wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:The real reason they carry and use all manner of firearms is because the title is Gunslinger Girls.

The audience expects to see girls and they expect to see guns. So the girls all carry different weapons so we get "maximum gun effect". It would be boring if every girl carried a Beretta 8000 / Beretta 92 pistol or a Beretta M12 SMG.
Good Best Explaination Ever!

I agree! Good

ElfenMagix wrote:Actaully,
the smaller gals have used bigger guns in both the manga and anime. It
is their cyborg strength that allows them to do this, and not let
things like weight or recoil be an issue

Oops I keep forgetting that the girls are cyborgs Embarassed

ElfenMagix wrote:BTW- NYC Police uses 9mm Hollow Points.

That's wise. Higher lethality without exit wounds. Sadly (or fortunately), some countries have big issues with the use of these rounds and they're banned under the Hague Convention (which doesn't cover law enforcement )

ElfenMagix wrote:1911s, you
pull the locking lever down and pull the slide back. Other guns, you
pull/push a locking mech to unlock it, and pull the slide back partly
and then foward. Others you pull back or push foward and then up. A
few, you just push foward after unlocking it. The .23NAA by North
American Arms, you pull back to clear the jam, and then foward to
remove the slide to clean it. But most would not know this since most
have not ever used a North American Arms Pistol.

Ooo I learn something new every day. My experience with firearms is actually limited to those I've handled in the army and some courses like the P226, some assault rifles like the HK 416 and a few long rifles like the DSR1. They're quite reliable so I've almost never done an IA drill, except for my P226 where the percussion cap was struck and nothing happened. Tap-rack-bang was sufficient

ElfenMagix wrote:If you have not noticed some of
the GsG stories in FF.net and elsewhere, when the unexperienced author
discuss guns, they put in descriptions that are no where near the
mechanical operation of the gun being used.

Exactly why I don't read fanon. Some of the weapon handling and technical details are really ... Guh? .

ElfenMagix wrote:Cool
weapons should be left on the store or armory shelves until the
character learns how to use it in the best and worst of conditions. The
enemy is not going to allow you to read the manual so that you can
clear a jam... This is my point. I have seen idiots buy brand new cars
and do not know how to change a tire on it if it were to go
flat.

QFT

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by sasahara17 on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 21:06

Kiskaloo wrote:The real reason they carry and use all manner of firearms is because the title is Gunslinger Girls.

The audience expects to see girls and they expect to see guns. So the girls all carry different weapons so we get "maximum gun effect". It would be boring if every girl carried a Beretta 8000 / Beretta 92 pistol or a Beretta M12 SMG.
End of discussion, I guess.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by West Nile on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 22:43

but isn't some of the guns "carried away" i feel Rico with a Big Ass Machine gun is carried away

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by sasahara17 on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 23:42

Hard Answer:
Rico is a little killer cyborg. Why build a €10,000,000 killer cyborg if they can't use big weapons even a grown man will find hard to handle? I bet if they could, they'd build a vulcan cannon into her hand, but it would probably be too expensive to research and build one that would fit. A big machine gun is the next best thing.

Easy Answerz;
Rico is a little killer cyborg that needs a big gun to look cool.
And so a big gun she will get.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Piero on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 23:54

Kiskaloo wrote:The real reason they carry and use all manner of firearms is because the title is Gunslinger Girls.

The audience expects to see girls and they expect to see guns. So the girls all carry different weapons so we get "maximum gun effect". It would be boring if every girl carried a Beretta 8000 / Beretta 92 pistol or a Beretta M12 SMG.

I'll agree to a point, but I think my position is kind of being misrepresented by a lot of the people arguing against it.

I actually think the agency armory would likely stock quite a variety of gear. The SWA is a specialty outfit, so their armory would not be exactly the same as that of say, an ordinary police or military outfit. An example being for instance that I would think you'd more likely see the girls deploying to the field with MP5s then Beretta M12s, though the latter might potentially be used in a training role.

I'll admit that any standardisation would probably cut back on the variety, but I don't think writing as if the agency had a higher level of standardization would necessarily be bland. The girls could mix things up by mission, maybe use SG 552s and F2000s on one mission, MP7s the next, maybe suppressed MP5 PDWs after that. But I think it would make sense for the girls to have different weapons at different times and have more duplicates show up, rather then having everyone stick doggedly to these exclusive, personal weapons even when they're not the most appropriate tool for the job.

The main logical argument against a standardised SWA arsenal is that the SWA isn't overly large and started off even smaller, plus is has a lot of specialised needs. Even so however there are some kind of out there choices, like Petra's PT-92. Sandro doesn't seem like enough of a gun nut to appreciate the difference between the Beretta 92FS and the Brazilian product. And it seems to me like there should be more overlap -why is Henrietta the only cyborg using a P239 given its merits (relatively small size among them)?

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by MikhailN on Wed 17 Jun 2009 - 8:31

Piero wrote:I'll admit that any standardisation would probably cut back on the variety, but I don't think writing as if the agency had a higher level of standardization would necessarily be bland. The girls could mix things up by mission, maybe use SG 552s and F2000s on one mission, MP7s the next, maybe suppressed MP5 PDWs after that. But I think it would make sense for the girls to have different weapons at different times and have more duplicates show up, rather then having everyone stick doggedly to these exclusive, personal weapons even when they're not the most appropriate tool for the job.

Well, first the handler needs to retrain the girl in the weapon. Then knowing that the weight, recoil and sighting will be different, they need to give the girl time to get used to the weapon. After going through all that trouble, it's easier to just let them use whatever they're using at the moment. Especially Triela, where even Hilshire can't get her to give up that aging piece of badass and its exceedingly sharp partner in badassery. I'd like to see you try and if you manage to do it please let me know.

Another reason is because it's iconic. Think P90 and you think . Think shotgun with bayonet and you think . It's as simple as that.

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