They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Guest on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 15:43

What about the SWA and explosives? Rocket launchers and RPGs would certainly be impractical to carry and use for the SWA's missions. Justifying their use anywhere near the public seems pretty much impossible.

But how about HE grenades or grenade launchers? They would certainly be effective for the area defense and stop-the-car missions. Ideally their yield/firing velocity can also be tinkered with to ensure the minimum amount of collateral damage.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Awinnell on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 16:23

stun or gas grenades maybe but not frag,to risky in a narrow old Italian street

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 19:40

Kiskaloo wrote:The real reason they carry and use all manner of firearms is because the title is Gunslinger Girls.

The audience expects to see girls and they expect to see guns. So the girls all carry different weapons so we get "maximum gun effect". It would be boring if every girl carried a Beretta 8000 / Beretta 92 pistol or a Beretta M12 SMG.
Good Best Explaination Ever!

boomer_gonz wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:
Very rarely one will take something off the shelf they know nothing about all because they think it looks cool. Here is the case where functionality and usability = Keeping One's Ass Alive. The enemy is not going to allow you manual reading time when you get an on the field jam and you require some research to unjam it!

And this is where OSP training comes into play. I'm surprised that even the canon hasn't explored this useful tactic.
I thought about this, but decided against it for my current stories.
I may use it on Francesca's branch of 'The SWA Beginnings' we are working on. It seems to make some sense for that time frame to use such tatics.

MikhailN wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:The problem with using police armourment and fire power is that criminals can easily outpower/outgun police departments.

If one is going after known criminals tht work outside the law and public safety, one has to use weapons that are equal to what they could put up a defense for or top of the line stuff that will go through anything.

Weapons are chosen for their function. If bad guys take hostages in an aeroplane on the tarmac, you DO NOT storm the aircraft holding an aging M1 rifle with 5 5-round clips. Similarly, you DO NOT pick an M2 Browning for a conceal-carry mission on the streets of Sicily. The girls are usually exposed to such conceal-carry missions where the priority is stashing the firearm, getting up close and hosing the poor chap. Bearing in mind the small size of the girls, the best weapons for this purpose are pistols, SMGs and for the bigger sized girls (Triela), shotguns. Assault rifles and LMGs, though they have been used on the streets of Iraq, are really not suitable considering the rifle's almost two thirds their height.

By the way, the purpose of firearms in most police departments is primarily deterrence and personal defence is secondary. That's why the local 'special' teams have a different set of stuff to conduct room clearing and hostage rescue.

Actaully, the smaller gals have used bigger guns in both the manga and anime. It is their cyborg strength that allows them to do this, and not let things like weight or recoil be an issue.

MikhailN wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:Or you can do (my OC) Rachel's thing and thats taking head shots if they dont go down after the first couple of rounds...

Just to let you know, there have been cases where the bad guy is shot in the head, falls down, and after a while he stands right back up and continues battling policemen. Granted the police were using FMJ rounds and not other kinds that are deemed more suitable (Hollow-Point and Hydra-shok rounds. Those are a morality issue by themselves)

I have seen and heard it happen when I was with both the 'agency' and the police dept of NYC. Not going into variables as to why this happens, lets agree that it does. But in my stories, my OCs do use HydroShock ammo, and headshots are usually above the eyebrow, so that the bullets end up in one of the frontal lobes and not between them. Yes- my characters are real mofos in terms of killing.

BTW- NYC Police uses 9mm Hollow Points.
When my financaes and paperwork are restored, I'll be getting a American Amrms 1984... again.

MikhailN wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:Here is the case where functionality and usability = Keeping One's Ass
Alive. The enemy is not going to allow you manual reading time when you get an on the field jam and you require some research to unjam it!

I'm under the impression that most Immediate Action drills revolve around the basic SPORS (Slap magazine, Pull back bolt, Observe chamber, Release bolt, Squeeze trigger). When I was handling my service pistol, the combat clearing drill was a quick tap-rack-bang so that we could clear the jam and engage in under 2sec. So if you really need research to clear an IA then you're better off drawing a secondary weapon, neutralizing your target and taking his gun

1911s, you pull the locking lever down and pull the slide back. Other guns, you pull/push a locking mech to unlock it, and pull the slide back partly and then foward. Others you pull back or push foward and then up. A few, you just push foward after unlocking it. The .23NAA by North American Arms, you pull back to clear the jam, and then foward to remove the slide to clean it. But most would not know this since most have not ever used a North American Arms Pistol.

I have seen my friend's Colt 9mm 1911 jam so bad because the casing got crushed between the slide and the rail. It took a lot of strength to even budge the slide out, and we spend an hour surveying the damage and cleaning out the gun. I seem another friend's collect 1873 Peacemaker jam when its cylinder locking ball bearing jammed and started to cut a grove into the cylinder. We got it apart, and found a broken spring forcing the ball bearing too hard against the clyinder, but he had to send it to a restorer to get it fixed and restored in firing order and excellent appearence. It cost him over $200 in labour and alomst $400 in parts to get it done.

My point is not on knowledge of clearing out guns, but in using OSP training, it says, 'use what is available until its useless, discard it and aquire another.' Spending time in clearing out an aquired weapon will guarentee you becoming dead meat- 2 seconds or not withstanding. If you have not noticed some of the GsG stories in FF.net and elsewhere, when the unexperienced author discuss guns, they put in descriptions that are no where near the mechanical operation of the gun being used. If in real life one is not trained into the weapon of their choice, they are going up be up Shits Creek without a paddle. Not many here have fired off a old 1803 Kentucky side-by-side double barrle shotgun, or 'Nam era weaponry in real life... Evil
(Boomer knows what I'm talking about...)

Cool weapons should be left on the store or armory shelves until the character learns how to use it in the best and worst of conditions. The enemy is not going to allow you to read the manual so that you can clear a jam... This is my point. I have seen idiots buy brand new cars and do not know how to change a tire on it if it were to go flat.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by MikhailN on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 20:08

ElfenMagix wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:The real reason they carry and use all manner of firearms is because the title is Gunslinger Girls.

The audience expects to see girls and they expect to see guns. So the girls all carry different weapons so we get "maximum gun effect". It would be boring if every girl carried a Beretta 8000 / Beretta 92 pistol or a Beretta M12 SMG.
Good Best Explaination Ever!

I agree! Good

ElfenMagix wrote:Actaully,
the smaller gals have used bigger guns in both the manga and anime. It
is their cyborg strength that allows them to do this, and not let
things like weight or recoil be an issue

Oops I keep forgetting that the girls are cyborgs Embarassed

ElfenMagix wrote:BTW- NYC Police uses 9mm Hollow Points.

That's wise. Higher lethality without exit wounds. Sadly (or fortunately), some countries have big issues with the use of these rounds and they're banned under the Hague Convention (which doesn't cover law enforcement )

ElfenMagix wrote:1911s, you
pull the locking lever down and pull the slide back. Other guns, you
pull/push a locking mech to unlock it, and pull the slide back partly
and then foward. Others you pull back or push foward and then up. A
few, you just push foward after unlocking it. The .23NAA by North
American Arms, you pull back to clear the jam, and then foward to
remove the slide to clean it. But most would not know this since most
have not ever used a North American Arms Pistol.

Ooo I learn something new every day. My experience with firearms is actually limited to those I've handled in the army and some courses like the P226, some assault rifles like the HK 416 and a few long rifles like the DSR1. They're quite reliable so I've almost never done an IA drill, except for my P226 where the percussion cap was struck and nothing happened. Tap-rack-bang was sufficient

ElfenMagix wrote:If you have not noticed some of
the GsG stories in FF.net and elsewhere, when the unexperienced author
discuss guns, they put in descriptions that are no where near the
mechanical operation of the gun being used.

Exactly why I don't read fanon. Some of the weapon handling and technical details are really ... Guh? .

ElfenMagix wrote:Cool
weapons should be left on the store or armory shelves until the
character learns how to use it in the best and worst of conditions. The
enemy is not going to allow you to read the manual so that you can
clear a jam... This is my point. I have seen idiots buy brand new cars
and do not know how to change a tire on it if it were to go
flat.

QFT

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by sasahara17 on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 21:06

Kiskaloo wrote:The real reason they carry and use all manner of firearms is because the title is Gunslinger Girls.

The audience expects to see girls and they expect to see guns. So the girls all carry different weapons so we get "maximum gun effect". It would be boring if every girl carried a Beretta 8000 / Beretta 92 pistol or a Beretta M12 SMG.
End of discussion, I guess.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by West Nile on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 22:43

but isn't some of the guns "carried away" i feel Rico with a Big Ass Machine gun is carried away

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by sasahara17 on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 23:42

Hard Answer:
Rico is a little killer cyborg. Why build a 10,000,000 killer cyborg if they can't use big weapons even a grown man will find hard to handle? I bet if they could, they'd build a vulcan cannon into her hand, but it would probably be too expensive to research and build one that would fit. A big machine gun is the next best thing.

Easy Answerz;
Rico is a little killer cyborg that needs a big gun to look cool.
And so a big gun she will get.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Piero on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 23:54

Kiskaloo wrote:The real reason they carry and use all manner of firearms is because the title is Gunslinger Girls.

The audience expects to see girls and they expect to see guns. So the girls all carry different weapons so we get "maximum gun effect". It would be boring if every girl carried a Beretta 8000 / Beretta 92 pistol or a Beretta M12 SMG.

I'll agree to a point, but I think my position is kind of being misrepresented by a lot of the people arguing against it.

I actually think the agency armory would likely stock quite a variety of gear. The SWA is a specialty outfit, so their armory would not be exactly the same as that of say, an ordinary police or military outfit. An example being for instance that I would think you'd more likely see the girls deploying to the field with MP5s then Beretta M12s, though the latter might potentially be used in a training role.

I'll admit that any standardisation would probably cut back on the variety, but I don't think writing as if the agency had a higher level of standardization would necessarily be bland. The girls could mix things up by mission, maybe use SG 552s and F2000s on one mission, MP7s the next, maybe suppressed MP5 PDWs after that. But I think it would make sense for the girls to have different weapons at different times and have more duplicates show up, rather then having everyone stick doggedly to these exclusive, personal weapons even when they're not the most appropriate tool for the job.

The main logical argument against a standardised SWA arsenal is that the SWA isn't overly large and started off even smaller, plus is has a lot of specialised needs. Even so however there are some kind of out there choices, like Petra's PT-92. Sandro doesn't seem like enough of a gun nut to appreciate the difference between the Beretta 92FS and the Brazilian product. And it seems to me like there should be more overlap -why is Henrietta the only cyborg using a P239 given its merits (relatively small size among them)?

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by MikhailN on Wed 17 Jun 2009 - 8:31

Piero wrote:I'll admit that any standardisation would probably cut back on the variety, but I don't think writing as if the agency had a higher level of standardization would necessarily be bland. The girls could mix things up by mission, maybe use SG 552s and F2000s on one mission, MP7s the next, maybe suppressed MP5 PDWs after that. But I think it would make sense for the girls to have different weapons at different times and have more duplicates show up, rather then having everyone stick doggedly to these exclusive, personal weapons even when they're not the most appropriate tool for the job.

Well, first the handler needs to retrain the girl in the weapon. Then knowing that the weight, recoil and sighting will be different, they need to give the girl time to get used to the weapon. After going through all that trouble, it's easier to just let them use whatever they're using at the moment. Especially Triela, where even Hilshire can't get her to give up that aging piece of badass and its exceedingly sharp partner in badassery. I'd like to see you try and if you manage to do it please let me know.

Another reason is because it's iconic. Think P90 and you think . Think shotgun with bayonet and you think . It's as simple as that.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 17 Jun 2009 - 16:57

MikhailN wrote:Well, first the handler needs to retrain the girl in the weapon...

But the girls are trained and retrained in the weapons of the handler's choice.
First off, all the girls have their own pistols that seem to match their handlers (exceptions are Henrietta and Pre-Pino Triela, and if you count Petra, her too.)
Then you have the handlers train the girls in what ever weapons the handlers think the girls will need. Machine guns, shotguns, rifles, etc. All the girls seems to have a bit of skills in all the fighting, self defense a sniping/sharpshooting techniques needed to do their jobs.

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Re: They've definitely got the skills... but do they have the g

Post by Guest on Wed 8 Jul 2009 - 18:16

I think its becuase they are weapons made for combat not for Match competitions. And becuase most of the guys that did the anime (not flaming) did not know crap about firearms and just playd COD4 to select the more modern firearms and for Trielas 1897 Winchester (wich is incorectly named Trenchgun by many out there that dont know that she is NOT holding a WW2 trecnh model) shotgun they just wached a western movie.

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