Dangerous Enviroments

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Dangerous Enviroments

Post by sasahara17 on Thu 2 Jul 2009 - 5:46

Quick Question:

How well would a cyborg hold up in Extreme Environments? Given Canonically most of their operations occur within an urban or rural tropical or temperate climates, they normally wouldn't have to worry about this... bur what if, as in Nacht's Battlezone, they end up in the Middle East, or worse, a Desert in Egypt?

Planet Earth is a hazardous place, and one thing that can often kill you is the environment we live in. So I ask, assuming we drop your average cyborg in an extreme environment, how well will their prosthetic body hold up? If it does not, is it likely the SWA R&D have something to make it better? If it does, why do the Cyborgs adapt to their new surroundings?

Here are a few enviroments I could think of...

Natural; Arctic/Antartic Tundra, Desert, Tropical Rainforest, High Mountain (Mount K2 or Himalayas?),
Manmade; Iridiated Area, International Space Station,


I'd expect the Tropical Rinforset and Swamp to be very hazardous to their help, given the warm weather and prime conditions for bacteria.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 2 Jul 2009 - 7:08

Personally, Sasahara, I think their carbon frame/fiber bodies would hold up very well against extremes of heat and cold, making them more resilient than the average person to both. Also, I don't think they would be more vulnerable to germs than normal people. If anything, their durability and artificial components would lower the possibility of sustaining wounds, having said wounds get septic, or develop general infections.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by boomer_gonz on Thu 2 Jul 2009 - 9:30

Ah, memories of Beatrice Gets a Cold.

-sniff-

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 2 Jul 2009 - 9:44

I think in general the girls would do better in an extreme environment than a normal human would.

Cold and heat would be the ones most likely to do them in since their brains are still biological.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by sasahara17 on Thu 2 Jul 2009 - 11:24

Nachtsider wrote:Personally, Sasahara, I think their carbon frame/fiber bodies would hold up very well against extremes of heat and cold, making them more resilient than the average person to both. Also, I don't think they would be more vulnerable to germs than normal people. If anything, their durability and artificial components would lower the possibility of sustaining wounds, having said wounds get septic, or develop general infections.
I would have thought that they would be more vulnerable to viruses and bacteria because of their prosthetic bodies. Sure it would be hard to get them infected, but their weakened immune sustem due to their drug requirements for said prostethics would mean that if they did catch something, it would be devastating. Still, I'm no doctor and don't have a clue about medicine (that would be my uncles, aunts, great uncles and aunts... my family are accountants/acturist in a clan of doctors. Go figure.)

Bice gets a cold? Can't remember that one, Sorry.

Kiskaloo wrote:I think in general the girls would do better in an extreme environment than a normal human would.

Cold and heat would be the ones most likely to do them in since their brains are still biological.
Question: if they have metals in their bodies, would those metals heat up very quickly (or cool down very wuickly) and make the GSG 'uncomfortable'?

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 2 Jul 2009 - 11:31

sasahara17 wrote:Question: if they have metals in their bodies, would those metals heat up very quickly (or cool down very wuickly) and make the GSG 'uncomfortable'?

I would think probably not, but then it's quite possible the girl's bodies are at "room temperature" since the processes that require a 37°C temperature in humans might not be present in the girl's. Or perhaps only necessary in their heads (for the brain).

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 2 Jul 2009 - 14:57

The cyborgs would do better than the average human in Extreme Outdoor Environment. Their bodies were meant to take more punishment for one. If you also notice, during the Italian Winters, the girls tend to wear coats, but they seem to be lighter than normal (IMHO) winter coats out there, and in V10, when the girls were on the roof, most of their coats were open. In Season 1, Epi- 12, the rescue of Cleas, the girls seemed to be wearing just their normal clothing compared to their handlers who seem to have needed heavier and warmer clothing. I would imply that the same holds true for the heat. Besides, they look cute in bikinis anyway...

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Ghostfriendly on Mon 6 Jul 2009 - 18:27

I remember a Battle Angel Alita issue where her ultra-flexible plastic systems melted down in the middle of the desert, but she wasn't made with anything like near-future technology. Her only original organ (brain) was actually saturated with a synthetic fluid in place of water to preserve it over hundreds of years...but I digress.

The girl's might have to trade off some human resistances, but I can't picture any germs setting up shop on a carbon fibre, and their brains probably have special protection from temperature change as well as gunfire. They could have a system that withdraws heat from the limbs completely to preserve the core organs, since they can always get their limbs replaced. Mechanical problems from temperature change would occur, but might just slow a cyborg down rather than killing them.
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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Alfisti on Fri 30 Oct 2009 - 13:30

Well, I guess here's another "dangerous/extreme" environment: the deep ocean. Allow me to explain.



This is the Kasimon Eintausend which I'm looking at adding to Monty's arsenal. It's an automatic professional diver's watch. Comes with all the good stuff: 40 hour power reserve, anti-magnetic protection up to 80ka/m, Helium Escape Valve (vital for deep diving in submersibles, diving bells, hard suits etc)... and is rated water-tight to 1000m (properly 1000m, not this "100m - you can wash it in the sink" shit).

So the question's this: what's going to crush first, the watch or the cyborg? Is Monty going to need something more substantial

My guess is that 1000m should be sufficient. Presumably a cyborg would hold up to pressure better than a normal human, even if they never needed a weight belt, but 1 click under is quite far down. Figure the first thing to go would be known weak-points either eyes or ear-drums.

At the other end of the scale (and relating more to Sasahara's original question)... I wonder just how a cyborg would go being exposed to hard vaccume?
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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 30 Oct 2009 - 13:54

At 1000 meters of depth, the pressure would be north of 100 bar so any air-filled spaces (like lungs, ears and paranasal sinuses) in a cyborg would have long-imploded. So at that depth a cyborg would need to be breathing and have the skull incased in a fluorocarbon liquid like in The Abyss. Their bones and musculature should easily survive that depth.

Hard vacuum would be the opposite - air-filled spaces would explode. Also, the cyborg's body would be quickly freeze-dried. Needless to say, brain death would be very quick and at that point - no more functioning cyborg.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Alfisti on Fri 30 Oct 2009 - 14:17

Kiskaloo wrote:At 1000 meters of depth, the pressure would be north of 100 bar so any air-filled spaces (like lungs, ears and paranasal sinuses) in a cyborg would have long-imploded. So at that depth a cyborg would need to be breathing and have the skull incased in a fluorocarbon liquid like in The Abyss. Their bones and musculature should easily survive that depth.

Hard vacuum would be the opposite - air-filled spaces would explode. Also, the cyborg's body would be quickly freeze-dried. Needless to say, brain death would be very quick and at that point - no more functioning cyborg.

So, I guess the question is: how deep could a cyborg go? As far as I know the current human deep-diving record on an open-circuit SCUBA system stands at 330m. Assume you gave Monty (or Triela, Henrietta... probably not Rico as she apparently can't swim) some form or ear, eye and nose protection, a deep-diving gas mix and sufficient pressure in their tanks to allow them to breath... If we assume their bones and muscles could survive the crush, I guess it starts to boil down to how efficient their lungs are, so how much oxygen can be pulled out of the mix...

...please note that I know fuck-all about diving and am mostly just guessing here.
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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 30 Oct 2009 - 14:37

While the manga says "their organs are artificial", they don't say if all of them are. Assuming the Technology Branch developed a set of artificial lungs, since such a thing does not exist in the real world, we lack a frame of reference as to how robust they are. I would imagine the reason you would want to give a cyborg artificial lungs is to increase the oxygen absorption and carbon dioxide expulsion ratios which would mean you'd want both more alveoli and have each alveoli be more efficient. Since pulmonary alveoli are hollow cavities, adding more of them might very well result in a structure less resistant to pressure changes. Which means that in deeper water, a cyborg might suffer ill-effects sooner than a human.

Since cyborgs have artificial tissues and pain management, chances are they would not suffer nearly as much from decompression sickness as a human. They would however suffer from both nitrogen narcosis and oxygen toxicity - perhaps even more so than a human if they do indeed have improved pulmonary systems. Therefore they would require an exotic gas mix (heliox or an equivalent) though the central nervous system starts to fail when oxygen pressures exceed 1.6 bar (about 60% beyond sea-level). So it strikes me as plausible that the atmospheric oxygen levels would have to so low at 1000m that even cyborgs could not breathe which would therefore require liquid breathing.

When Rico fell into the water in Venice, she likely didn't sink more than about five meters which isn't much of a problem for a human. So we can't really use that as empirical data.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 30 Oct 2009 - 20:42

Alfisti wrote:Well, I guess here's another "dangerous/extreme" environment: the deep ocean. Allow me to explain...
Uhm... No. OK, I kid, but seriously.
Why would one want such a watch which would survive where its owner would not?
Why would one want to go to a place so harsh that coming back is not an option?

Sending a cyborg out... well... they are just as human as you and I, but with extra hardware to make them stronger and fast than we. But where does the humanity ends and the technology begins? No matter how much is taken away from their bodies and replaced with something technological replacement, the human inside still exists. Then again, I'm a devil's advocate for Cyborg Rights.

I am sure that most OC and even canon handler characters would not want a watch returned from where they cyborg was set too but did not survive going. A simple watch will do, as a simple car. The life of the millionaire spy is that of James Bond, and how he is not picked off with his fancy clothes and expensive cars like a "Lost White Boy In Harlem", is beyond me. I give my OC Characters what I have owned or used in my lifetime, and work it to a slighter higher level. I keep it simple and with with what I know and what has worked for me.

Yes, its a nice watch. But putting on a cyborg which may never see ankle high of the wet side of a beach in its lifetime... Its just too much.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 30 Oct 2009 - 21:19

ElfenMagix wrote:The life of the millionaire spy is that of James Bond, and how he is not picked off with his fancy clothes and expensive cars like a "Lost White Boy In Harlem", is beyond me.

It's because James Bond doesn't operate in the "low rent district". He operates in a realm where Rolex watches, hand-tailored Gieves & Hawkes suits and bespoke shoes from GJ Cleverly are not just common, they are mandatory. And his social graces are refined and polished to effortlessly move through the upper levels of the social strata.

If Fernando parked his Porsche 928 in front of the Casino de Monte Carlo it would be towed as a public eyesore - and then promptly dumped into the harbor where even the coral probably wouldn't alight upon it. On the flip side, Michele's Lamborghini Murciélago Roadster would be given pole position right out front.

It's true that Michele and Kara wouldn't last ten minutes in Harlem (well, Kara would), but on the flip side, five minutes after stepping into the lobby of the Hotel Crillon in Paris, Fernando would be in the back of a gendarme paddywagon on the way to the Bastille due to his uncouth attitude. Razz

So I say give the girl the watch, Alfisti. Yes Indeed Good

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 30 Oct 2009 - 22:05

Bond doesn't ALWAYS wear fancy clothes and drive expensive cars.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 0:00

Kiskaloo wrote:...
ROTFL

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Alfisti on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 0:01

Kiskaloo wrote:While the manga says "their organs are artificial", they don't say if all of them are. Assuming the Technology Branch developed a set of artificial lungs, since such a thing does not exist in the real world, we lack a frame of reference as to how robust they are. I would imagine the reason you would want to give a cyborg artificial lungs is to increase the oxygen absorption and carbon dioxide expulsion ratios which would mean you'd want both more alveoli and have each alveoli be more efficient. Since pulmonary alveoli are hollow cavities, adding more of them might very well result in a structure less resistant to pressure changes. Which means that in deeper water, a cyborg might suffer ill-effects sooner than a human.

Since cyborgs have artificial tissues and pain management, chances are they would not suffer nearly as much from decompression sickness as a human. They would however suffer from both nitrogen narcosis and oxygen toxicity - perhaps even more so than a human if they do indeed have improved pulmonary systems. Therefore they would require an exotic gas mix (heliox or an equivalent) though the central nervous system starts to fail when oxygen pressures exceed 1.6 bar (about 60% beyond sea-level). So it strikes me as plausible that the atmospheric oxygen levels would have to so low at 1000m that even cyborgs could not breathe which would therefore require liquid breathing.

When Rico fell into the water in Venice, she likely didn't sink more than about five meters which isn't much of a problem for a human. So we can't really use that as empirical data.

Cheers Kisk, that's pretty much answered my question, as for mentioning Rico... that was more taking a stab at the fact that she didn't really seem to make any attempt to re-surface herself and rather just sank (though I guess the shock of falling off something high may have had something to do with that as well).


ElfenMagix wrote:Uhm... No. OK, I kid, but seriously.
Why would one want such a watch which would survive where its owner would not?
Why would one want to go to a place so harsh that coming back is not an option?

I guess because it's a measure of toughness, it's nice to know your equipment will keep working no-matter what you throw at it... and because it's an AWESOME wank ;P And some people do actually need stuff like this (not many, and most people who wear dive watches fall into the "wank" category), the folks at COMEX would be a good starting point.

In all seriousness though: I generally try to equip my characters (here and elsewhere) with gear that's appropriate to what they're doing, so for example they wouldn't wear in Cuba what they'd wear on the French Riviera. So if Monty needs a dive watch, then she's probably going diving. On the assumption that a cyborg can safely go beyond human-safe depths than the standard 300m-rated dive watch probably isn't going to cut it. Even if she never goes that deep the point is leaving the flexibility to do so of required.

Don't worry, I won't be sending any cyborgs places they wouldn't be coming back from (at least intentionally).

As a side note: the 1490 euro asking price for the Kasimon is pretty resonable for a good automatic dive watch... the original plan was to go with Linde Werdelin's Octopus DLC (5900 euro) or Blancpain's 500 Fathoms (which falls into the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" category) untill I thought better of it ^^;
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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 1:12

ElfenMagix wrote:The life of the millionaire spy is that of James Bond, and how he is not picked off with his fancy clothes and expensive cars like a "Lost White Boy In Harlem", is beyond me.Its just too much.
Get on the guns and give ‘em hell, Elfen.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 11:29

Nachtsider wrote:Bond doesn't ALWAYS wear fancy clothes and drive expensive cars.

It is true they did reboot him for Casino Royale (2006) as a less-glamorous man, but he was arguably back on form in the next movie - Quantum of Solace.


Alfisti wrote:(A)s for mentioning Rico... that was more taking a stab at the fact that she didn't really seem to make any attempt to re-surface herself and rather just sank (though I guess the shock of falling off something high may have had something to do with that as well).

She was treading water in both the manga and the OAV, so it's clear a cyborg is less dense than water and is naturally buoyant, which makes since with all the CFRP in them. So I agree with you that her momentum from the fall carried her down and she was too shocked to realize she needed to arrest her descent and return to the surface.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Alfisti on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 11:44

Nachtsider wrote:Bond doesn't ALWAYS wear fancy clothes and drive expensive cars.

True, there was that Mondeo, and now that I think about it, the Alfetta GTV6 (Octopussy) and, I believe an AMC of some description at one point?


Kiskaloo wrote:She was treading water in both the manga and the OAV, so it's clear a
cyborg is less dense than water and is naturally buoyant, which makes
since with all the CFRP in them. So I agree with you that her momentum
from the fall carried her down and she was too shocked to realize she
needed to arrest her descent and return to the surface.

So the dumb question to ask here is: are the girls taught to swim? I mean, as Elfen pointed out, they don't exactly operate in, I guess, "aquatic" environments very much. Now I'm used to a culture where pretty much everyone learns to swim at a very young age, but I know I've got full-grown relatives in England who can't manage more than a doggy paddle. Assumeably it's something that's up to the handler.
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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 12:04

Alfisti wrote:So the dumb question to ask here is: are the girls taught to swim? I mean, as Elfen pointed out, they don't exactly operate in, I guess, "aquatic" environments very much. Now I'm used to a culture where pretty much everyone learns to swim at a very young age, but I know I've got full-grown relatives in England who can't manage more than a doggy paddle. Assumeably it's something that's up to the handler.

Unknown.

If they knew how to swim before they were converted, that knowledge may have carried over, but it may also have been erased during the conditioning process.

It appears Rico doesn't, considering how scared Jean was at seeing her go in.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 13:44

Regarding Bond not dressing fancy, I was actually referring to all those 'minor' missions he undertook in the novels, but the examples you guys provide are fine, too.

Any counter-terrorist outfit worth its salt would teach its operatives how to swim. This fact notwithstanding, I find it very hard to believe that Jean, the consummate professional, would neglect to consider the possibility that Rico might have to pursue her opponents over/through water.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by boomer_gonz on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 14:23

Nachtsider wrote:I find it very hard to believe that Jean, the consummate professional, would neglect to consider the possibility that Rico might have to pursue her opponents over/through water.

Unless she was just beginning her training and as soon she hit the water Rico thought, "Dammit, I forgot my floaties!!"

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 14:54

Unfortunately when I replied to this post, it got lost to a modem cable disconnection... @#$&!#@#&%!!!!

Alfisti wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:While the manga says "their organs are artificial", they don't say if all of them are. Assuming the Technology Branch developed a set of artificial lungs, since such a thing does not exist in the real world, we lack a frame of reference as to how robust they are. I would imagine the reason you would want to give a cyborg artificial lungs is to increase the oxygen absorption and carbon dioxide expulsion ratios which would mean you'd want both more alveoli and have each alveoli be more efficient. Since pulmonary alveoli are hollow cavities, adding more of them might very well result in a structure less resistant to pressure changes. Which means that in deeper water, a cyborg might suffer ill-effects sooner than a human.

Since cyborgs have artificial tissues and pain management, chances are they would not suffer nearly as much from decompression sickness as a human. They would however suffer from both nitrogen narcosis and oxygen toxicity - perhaps even more so than a human if they do indeed have improved pulmonary systems. Therefore they would require an exotic gas mix (heliox or an equivalent) though the central nervous system starts to fail when oxygen pressures exceed 1.6 bar (about 60% beyond sea-level). So it strikes me as plausible that the atmospheric oxygen levels would have to so low at 1000m that even cyborgs could not breathe which would therefore require liquid breathing.

When Rico fell into the water in Venice, she likely didn't sink more than about five meters which isn't much of a problem for a human. So we can't really use that as empirical data.

Cheers Kisk, that's pretty much answered my question, as for mentioning Rico... that was more taking a stab at the fact that she didn't really seem to make any attempt to re-surface herself and rather just sank (though I guess the shock of falling off something high may have had something to do with that as well).
Consider Rico's history...
All her life she was bedridden, unable to move from where she laid upon for 99% of her life. She probably never learned how to walk... Swimming is not even a consideration for her.
Thus... When Jean got her, he had tro teach her how to crawl, then walk, then run- literally in days if not weeks. Then came weapons training and hand to hand combat. Swimming was still considered something that was taken for granted...
When Rico hit the water- she knew she was a goner unless somebody saved her, because swimming for her is a skill that does not exist in any way or form. As a life guard in my and my OC's past- experience tells me this to be true.

Alfisti wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:Uhm... No. OK, I kid, but seriously.
Why would one want such a watch which would survive where its owner would not?
Why would one want to go to a place so harsh that coming back is not an option?

I guess because it's a measure of toughness, it's nice to know your equipment will keep working no-matter what you throw at it... and because it's an AWESOME wank ;P And some people do actually need stuff like this (not many, and most people who wear dive watches fall into the "wank" category), the folks at COMEX would be a good starting point.

In all seriousness though: I generally try to equip my characters (here and elsewhere) with gear that's appropriate to what they're doing, so for example they wouldn't wear in Cuba what they'd wear on the French Riviera. So if Monty needs a dive watch, then she's probably going diving. On the assumption that a cyborg can safely go beyond human-safe depths than the standard 300m-rated dive watch probably isn't going to cut it. Even if she never goes that deep the point is leaving the flexibility to do so of required.

Don't worry, I won't be sending any cyborgs places they wouldn't be coming back from (at least intentionally).

As a side note: the 1490 euro asking price for the Kasimon is pretty resonable for a good automatic dive watch... the original plan was to go with Linde Werdelin's Octopus DLC (5900 euro) or Blancpain's 500 Fathoms (which falls into the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" category) untill I thought better of it ^^;
This I can understand.
But, I'll be pointing this much out... The heads of organized crime who consist but a tiny part of the top 15% of the richest and famous people in the world will not be among those who are part of the 1% richest and famous people of the world. Though try as they might, they cant and wont be in those circles, though they could make them a target of attack later on. Not even the famed Osama Bin Laden- as much money, power and fame he owns will not be caught dead in such placed!
Paris Hilton nor Princess Di will not be in these ultra fancy hotels conducting organized crime deals under the table.
Bill Gates nor Steve Jobs will not be in such high priced ball rooms ordering hits on government targets.
Steven Wozinak nor Seymour Cray will not be behind the bushes of the fields of their Segway Polo Matches conducting business with their underworld underlings, minons and peons.

That is why I dont agree with some of the direction some stories seem to digress towards. But I will give it to you guys, those are some great stories.
I prefer to have my OCs operate on a lower level than some of you out there... For the Fernando/Rachel team, it is easy for them to hide in plain sight. ONLY the SWA staff knows about the 'blind man and his daughter' being a field operative team, for everyone else- there's only a blind man and his daughter.

BTW- Besides Rachel, the only OC Character that I know would be able to swim is Danjo's Brittney.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 17:41

The canon fratelli are definitely "upper class" based on the clothes they wear, the cars they drive and other things. They and their handlers are not going to be mistaken for a family pulling down €50.000 a year - more like €150.000+.

Franca herself noted at the Piazza di Spagna at the end of Chapter 7 how nicely Henrietta was dressed and that she wore expensive perfume and carried an expensive violin and that "she must be the daughter of some wealthy family...".

She also noted "protecting children like her is what Padania is all about" so Padania is evidently looking out for the wealthy people and by extension, the wealthy people are going to be looking out for Padania. Let us not forget that Pirazzi was said to be a billionaire. And Cristiano and his cronies were certainly not "middle class". So the PRF evidently have some serious money backing them.

And Yu Aida modeled the fictional Prime Minister of Italy on Silvio Berlusconi and ol' Silvia is worth billions.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 17:55

Nachtsider wrote:Regarding Bond not dressing fancy, I was actually referring to all those 'minor' missions he undertook in the novels, but the examples you guys provide are fine, too.

Books... Pashaw!

Those plotlines were downright dull compared to what Hollywood came up with!

I mean Moonraker was about an uprated V2 rocket and Drax was a Nazi. Lame!

The film was so much better. Space Shuttles! Concorde! Palaces! Laser battles in space!

Now that's what I'm talking about! Wink

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Alfisti on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 3:23

Kiskaloo wrote:The canon fratelli are definitely "upper class" based on the clothes they wear, the cars they drive and other things. They and their handlers are not going to be mistaken for a family pulling down €50.000 a year - more like €150.000+.

Franca herself noted at the Piazza di Spagna at the end of Chapter 7 how nicely Henrietta was dressed and that she wore expensive perfume and carried an expensive violin and that "she must be the daughter of some wealthy family...".

She also noted "protecting children like her is what Padania is all about" so Padania is evidently looking out for the wealthy people and by extension, the wealthy people are going to be looking out for Padania. Let us not forget that Pirazzi was said to be a billionaire. And Cristiano and his cronies were certainly not "middle class". So the PRF evidently have some serious money backing them.

And Yu Aida modeled the fictional Prime Minister of Italy on Silvio Berlusconi and ol' Silvia is worth billions.

From memory the major reason that the Padina wanted to break up Italy was to prevent Northern money being whittled away looking after the poorer south. Which I guess would make them (or at least their upper echelons), by definition: toffs.

That said, I think Elfen's got a point too in that a lot of the action would be happening away from the more monied areas, hell even Bond winds up all the way out in the middle of woop-woop from time to time. Guess that's why the SWA needs all these different Fratellos ;P

Which leads me to...

ElfenMagix wrote:That is why I dont agree with some of the direction some stories seem
to digress towards. But I will give it to you guys, those are some
great stories.
I prefer to have my OCs operate on a lower level than
some of you out there... For the Fernando/Rachel team, it is easy for
them to hide in plain sight. ONLY the SWA staff knows about the 'blind
man and his daughter' being a field operative team, for everyone else-
there's only a blind man and his daughter.

This is a ruse I like, everyone sees the blind man, but not the man behind it. However to me it's again a case of horses for courses. Now I couldn't say I'm totally familiar with the characters or their roles (to be honest I've been avoiding starting reading anything particularly lengthy this semester as it'd be likely to turn into a lot of reading and not much uni-work... there's some major fic reading slated for 2 weeks time), but in terms of the traditional fratello mission profile it seems perfect. However since the Jethro/Monty fratello tends to spend extended periods away from the SWA, I'm generally looking for flexibility when I pick their gear out and, well: good casual's easier to dress down than, for want of a better word, "street wear" is to dress up.

As I said though: horses for courses :p
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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 12:38

Alfisti wrote:From memory the major reason that the Padina wanted to break up Italy was to prevent Northern money being whittled away looking after the poorer south. Which I guess would make them (or at least their upper echelons), by definition: toffs.

That said, I think Elfen's got a point too in that a lot of the action would be happening away from the more monied areas, hell even Bond winds up all the way out in the middle of woop-woop from time to time. Guess that's why the SWA needs all these different Fratellos ;P

Yup. The enemies of the State play at all levels, therefore so must the defenders.

I come from an upper class background so, to be honest, that's what I'm interested in writing. While I'm not worth tens of millions, extrapolating what it's like to be worth that much is not that hard based on my knowledge and experiences.

Also, I'm more interested by intrigue and espionage ala "Hollywood spy thrillers" than combat. The girls are so good at the latter that they are literally comic book superheroes. Well, I don't read superhero comics so I don't have a frame of reference to write them. I'd base it on strategy and tactics at the fireteam and squad level which is just wrong. They're invincible and invulnerable so they don't need to worry about tactics. They just charge in, guns blazing, knowing they can't be hurt, much less killed.

Sure, Beatrice and Angie and Chiara all died, but they died against military heavy weaponry. And as we have seen, Padania and the PRF are not a standing Army so they don't normally have that kind of weaponry nor do they have the military tactical training to set up the traps necessary to defeat the girls.

Now I have that background and knowledge, so I could write some great stories that kill the girls. But one, people aren't going to want to read that and two, it limits how many stories I can write since once the girls are all dead, so is the story. Wink

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Alfisti on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 13:55

Kiskaloo wrote:
Yup. The enemies of the State play at all levels, therefore so must the defenders.

I come from an upper class background so, to be honest, that's what I'm interested in writing. While I'm not worth tens of millions, extrapolating what it's like to be worth that much is not that hard based on my knowledge and experiences.

Also, I'm more interested by intrigue and espionage ala "Hollywood spy thrillers" than combat. The girls are so good at the latter that they are literally comic book superheroes. Well, I don't read superhero comics so I don't have a frame of reference to write them. I'd base it on strategy and tactics at the fireteam and squad level which is just wrong. They're invincible and invulnerable so they don't need to worry about tactics. They just charge in, guns blazing, knowing they can't be hurt, much less killed.

Sure, Beatrice and Angie and Chiara all died, but they died against military heavy weaponry. And as we have seen, Padania and the PRF are not a standing Army so they don't normally have that kind of weaponry nor do they have the military tactical training to set up the traps necessary to defeat the girls.

Now I have that background and knowledge, so I could write some great stories that kill the girls. But one, people aren't going to want to read that and two, it limits how many stories I can write since once the girls are all dead, so is the story. Wink

I guess to some extent I'm in a similar boat. Though I'd probably not call our family "upper-class" per-se, I'll be the first to admit I've had a pretty comfortable upbringing.

More to the point though: after four years in a design course, my interests run far more toward things like watches, clothes and gadgets rather than guns, ammo and commando tactics (which, notably, were my previous obsessions... resident military nerd and Airforce Cadet when I was in highschool). Since spy thrillers and espionage tend to go hand-in-hand with fancy design... well, 'nuff said. That said, I also really enjoy what I essentially view as a design challenge of making what I give my characters contextually and mission appropriate. Which brings me to another point: I'm an illustrator, not a writer. I'll openly admit my writing sucks arse, hence I tend to draw instead (which I'm at least marginally better at) and spy-thrillers leave far more scope in terms of cool locations etc than military epics. I used to draw a lot of military action, but these days... I dunno, I just don't really find it that enjoyable to do.

There were an awful lot of "I's" in that last paragraph.

Either way, I still reckon it's all very much a case of "each to their own"... which is the beauty of fan-fiction/fan-art, it can be whatever you want it to be... though if it's too far off the mark, get ready to be shot down in flames Razz jks


Wow, I don't think we're even within cooee of the original thread topic anymore sweat
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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Five_X on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 15:47

Well, considering that it's kind of my area, I think the girls would do well in a heavily irradiated post-nuclear envoronment. Think less Fallout 2/3, and more Fallout 1, though. The most that would happen would be their hair falling out, and even that's questionable, given the fact that they most likely have artificial scalp and hair cells.

It's been explained that the girls have artificial bones and tissue, and it's believed that most, if not all, of their organs are artificial as well. I highly doubt that radiation could mutate non-organic cells to cause cancerous growths, because the cells don't work like that of a normal organism. Namely, the cells don't heal and reproduce and can't 'die', they can only be destroyed and require replacement. Triela, though, is known to have at least her reproductive organs left unreplaced, so that could cause problems if it spread to her brain.

Which brings up the next point/question: how organic are the girls' brains? They all do have cybernetic implants, which directly apply to the brain. That is where the reflex enhancements are located, and it is also possible that the enhancements that reduce the pain they feel are also located in the brain as well. The only real way for radiation to affect the girls would be if it penetrated their bodies. This is unlikely, though, because after the Elsa case, it is said that the girls will receive "impact resistant optics", in addition to their already existing carbon-fiber skeletons and durable skin. It's not known if they did end up getting new eyes, but that could explain the eye design change in Il Teatrino. But because their eyes are already artificial, it is not very likely that background radiation from a nuclear exchange, even relatively recently after one as devastating as the one that created the Fallout wasteland, would affect the girls too much. If they directly ingested radioactive material, be it water, dust, food, Claes' magical cakes, etc., that could cause some problems.

But overall, I doubt radiation would harm them all too badly. Plus, their handlers could have them wear hazardous environment suits, if the radiation was extremely heavy - something along the lines of massive doses of gamma rads EVERYWHERE. Really, the ones you'd have to worry about would be the handlers! Anyways, the super mutants, ghouls, Deathclaws, and other assorted creatures would be more of a threat to them. In fact, I think I'm going to make a thread about something like that; but more along the lines of "How could the SWA girls stand up to various (mostly fictional) creatures/weapons", or something like that.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 16:18

Five_X wrote:Which brings up the next point/question: how organic are the girls' brains?

They appear to be fully organic and "normal". It's why the conditioning medication is killing them - cumulative exposure leads to synaptic collapse and brain death, which then shuts down everything else.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 16:22

Rightfully or wrongfully, in 'Battlezone' I described the girls as possessing a resistance to bio/chemical weapons and radiation, on account of their synthetic organs and carbon frame bodies.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Five_X on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 19:10

The most susceptible to radiation would possibly be Petra and the other 2nd Gen girls, as they've had less cyborgifications. I assume that the lack of changes to the torso also means thinner armour, and more "style over substance" in a way. Well, when it comes to avoiding damage, whether it be from bullets or radioactive material.

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Re: Dangerous Enviroments

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 20:36

The Generation 2 models appear to have their natural skeletons reinforced as opposed to replaced, which seems to be what was done with the Generation 1 models. They also are not as heavily modified in their upper torso, but we're given no reference to what that means - either for the Generation 1 or 2 girls.

The shoulder and thigh sockets are also not as reinforced on the Generation 2 girls, so their load-bearing would not be as high. Petra has extremely sharp reflexes, she's able to leap a few floors without suffering damage and she successfully stopped a high-speed piece of shrapnel with her bare hands using the "ninja sword stopping with their hands technique". So she (and her sisters) are still amazing.

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