Order of the Cyborgs

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Order of the Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 15:38

This is a lot of fact finding and intel searching on what is known to the list. If you have something, put it up to be discussed. Post Volume/chapters/pages or Season/Episode of the event. In short- post your theories and submitt your proof (like I am doing here). In fact, we have had this discussion before...




In Canon, (Death of Elsa di Sica), Rico states, "There are 10 of us..." {Not an exact quote, but she says there are 10.}
This before building Petrushka and the other Second Gen Cyborgs. Question, who are the 10? In thinking- and in taking all into consideration the 3 Canon Universes (Anime, Manga, and Video Game) I have come up with this list:


Angie, Triela, Rico, Henrietta, Beatrice, Claes, Elsa, Sylvia, Chiara, and Pia


This makes 10, in total. Putting them in order is a bit trickier. We know this much...
1) Angie (first cyborg protype), 2) Triela, ?) Rico, ?) Henrietta, ?) Beatrice, ?) Claes, 7) Elsa.

This much is in evidence:
In the Video Game, Pia yells at Henrietta "We have been friends since the beginning..." which makes it seem like that they came out of the cybernetic process together.

In V1/CH2 and in Season 1/Episode 3, Rico says that she's been a cyborg for 2 years, in her claim of "two years ago I got this new body".

Sylvia's handler asks her how long they have been together in Chapter 61 and Sylvia replies "it was after Chiara, so less then three years, right?".

Chapter 61 happens a year after V1/CH2 and in Season 1/Episode 3. This makes Syliva and Chiara well after after Rico.

Problem Characters:
Beatrice: very little is known of her placement when compared to the others. All that is known is that she is seen a couple of times, once in V1 and another in V2, before her debute in V3(?) (dont have my comics on me right now- but will post the pages when I get home).

Syliva and Chiara: though its stated that they have been around for less than 3 years, it does not say when because there is no definative time line in the GsG Universe.

Elsa as stated to be the last/newest cyborg on the GsG Website done by Yu Aida himself. Since then that info has been taken down for new stuff (new manga volumes and tv episodes, etc.).

placement characters become:
1) Angie (first cyborg Protype), 2) Triela, 3) Rico, 4/5) Henrietta and Pia, ??) Claes, Beatrice, Syliva and Chiara, last) Elsa.




So, what do you have to add, offer of challenge to this?
Personally, I always believed that there were more than just 10 cyborgs. But as the list currently is, this accounts for the 10 Rico had to have been talking about during the investigation of Elsa's death.

And remember, this is of the 10 first Generation Cyborgs... We'll do the Second Generation Cyborgs later...

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 17:01

Honestly, at this point I'm about through with trying to put them in any semblance of order, mostly because I don't think Yu cares, himself.

Instead, I am just going with what I believe their conversion dates to be, based on the manga running from late 2004 to early 2006.

2001: Angelica and Triela
2002: Pia, Rico, Henrietta and Chiara
2003: Silvia, Claes, Beatrice and "Liesel"
2004: Elsa
2005: Petrushka

Since Chapter 2 of the manga should take place in December 2004, if you assumed it was two years to the month, that would be December 2002. But arguably, Rico could be referring to any date in (late) 2002.

Same with Silvia. She could mean that in early 2006 she and Chiara were converted around three years prior, which would mean sometime in late 2002/early 2003, which means Silvia would definitely be after Rico and Henrietta, either way, and Chiara could be before or after.

Rico and Henrietta were cyborgs when Claes joined the program so that means at the earliest she was converted in 2002, but I moved it to 2003 to reflect Rico, Henrietta and Chiara being converted in late 2002. I am positive the girl seen walking into the dining room in Chapter 18 is Beatrice so at the latest, she would have been converted in Spring 2005, but if we accept Funimation's claim that Elsa is the newest cyborg then Elsa had to have been converted no later than mid-2004 which means the latest Beatrice could have been converted would have been early-2004.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 15 Jul 2009 - 18:15

Here's some food for thought for people who think that the claim of Elsa being the newest cyborg is not true. Considering the way she reacted to Lauro upon finding out he did not love her, do you really think it's possible that she would have put up with his shit for a long time? The blind devotion we see her initially display strongly points to a girl who, at the time, did not know her supervisor was such a prick - hence, a rookie. Same goes for the shock we saw her express at finding out the truth. Had she been at the Agency for a while already, I think she would have found out about his true nature and offed him (and herself) far sooner.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 16:20

So I've been doing some more research on the cyborg creation dates and have revised my original view.

The manga and the anime have made it clear that Angelica is the first cyborg. So that means she has to have been converted at least three years prior to Chapter 61. I believe Chapter 61 took place in January 2006, so that would put Angelica's conversion sometime in 2002. Silvia was likely converted next, probably also in 2002. Then Chiara would have been converted in early 2003 since Chiara's handler notes that they became a fratello after Silvia and less than three years prior to January 2006.

Based on the dialog of their handlers in the manga, Triela, Henrietta and Rico all seem to be still in the early stages of their training when Chapter 01 takes place, which puts them all having been converted years after Silvia and Chiara, both of whom were well into their second year of being a cyborg agent based on Chiara's comments in Chapter 61. And when Marco reminisces about the cyborgs going active after Angelica breaks up the fight between Giorgio and Amadeo in Chapter 08, it shows Triela and I have previously taken that to indicate she was the first one sent into the field. But as I look at that scene now (upper left corner, page 165 of Volume 02) it is clear that Henrietta is with her, so it is more likely just a recent flashback and not a historical one.

I know in the first anime series Rico says she was converted two years ago (making her 13 in the anime), but in Chapter 02 of the manga, she says "In one corner of a brochure issued by the government at the beginning of the yearÖ" which means she was referring to the year Chapter 01 was taking place in. As I believe Chapter 01 takes place in December (specifically the week of the 5th through the 11th, 2004), that means her 11th birthday was earlier that same year. So she would be 11 in the manga. And since she and Henrietta were chosen together, Henrietta's creation date would be effectively identical.

While Hillshire's comments to Jose in Chapter 03 makes me want to believe that Triela is also a recent addition to the team, when she is reciting the name and date of her bears in Chapter 50, she notes she received Happy around Easter two years prior. I believe Chapter 50 happens in December 2005, so that would mean Hillshire gave her Happy around April of 2003.

Now, if she's not the second cyborg, she likely was the second candidate subject. According to the tag in Chapter 54, Triela was rescued in Amsterdam in December 1999. While no specific timeline is given in Chapter 55, I would not be surprised if Triela spent literally years in the hospital as the case was slowly built and prosecuted. Also, I expect Hillshire had to develop those "connections" with the SWA to get Triela into the program. The medical staff likely would have wanted to know her Compatibility Index and such before the agreed to have her stolen out from under police custody.

Bossi also noted Triela underwent about a year of hypnotic treatment before she was converted into a cyborg. So she probably underwent evaluation before they started the treatment to erase all of her memories. Unfortunately, Yu messed up her injuries. In Chapter 54, Triela is missing her right lower leg, but when Hillshire and Mario steal Triela in Chapter 55 her right leg is intact and her lower left leg is missing. And then it's back to the lower right leg missing when she's delivered to the SWA. Also, after Triela was converted, they were not immediately made a fratello. It's possible that they became one around Easter and Happy was the first bear she received from Hillshire.

I do believe Claes was the last Generation One cyborg, likely converted soon after Rico and Henrietta (since Rico was guarding Jean when he made the pitch to Raballo). And considering that the medical staff had to erase Raballo not just from Claes' memory, but all of the other cyborgs - and erase the memories of Claes and Raballo being a fratello - the less time they spent together the easier the process. So I am thinking that Raballo and Claes were together for only a couple of months before Raballo had his crisis of conscience and was killed. Dr. Belesario also notes in Chapter 34 that Claes feelings would not last long now that she doesn't remember Raballo. So that means his memories would have been wiped likely within the past six months (which would be around September 2004).

As for Elsa being the last because she would only accept Lauro's abuse for a short time, I do not feel that is a compelling argument. There is plenty of evidence of abused people spending years - even decades - with their abusers. Elsa was conditioned to be co-dependent on her handler. She could very well have been with Lauro for years before she finally snapped. Jean and Jose also remarked in the manga that she and Lauro were an excellent fratello in terms of their performance. So I am willing to put her in 2003 along with Beatrice and "Liesel".

So now I'm thinking:

Angelica converted in Q3 or Q4 2002.
Silvia converted in Q4 2002.
Chiara converted in Q1 2003.
Triela converted in Q2 2003.
Beatrice, Elsa and "Liesel" converted in Q3 or Q4 2003.
Henrietta and Rico converted in Q2 2004.
Claes converted in Q3 2004.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 17:45

Compelling, but one has to question everything. Nothing says that Ricco and Henrietta were choosen together. In fact, both the Anime and Manga has Jean stating (Not an exact quote) "I have already choosen mine..." when confronting Jose about his not wanting to choose a girl for the cyborg process.

The other piece is Pia (to those who do not know- she is in the video game and not in the Manga or anime). Pia states to Henrietta that (another indirect quote since its from translated Japanese), "You and I have been friends since the beginning..." thus showing that Pia and Henrietta were converted at about the same time. The whole game series seems to have happen before V1, and the only characters in the game are: Pia, Henrietta, Rico, Triela and Claes. If I'm wrong, correct the characters of the game...

Also, when Marco was remember the past about how the cyborg program was accellerated, the scene in the manga where it shows the girls storming the building, one of those girls was wearing long pig-tail braids. Only girl who has pigtail braids is Elsa. V1 mentions the Elsa and Lauro team "preparing the perp" for the assassination of the senator", and on more than one occassion have been stated that they were the best fratelli out there. Such training can not have occurred in a short time, and such abuse seems to have been from burn out. In Lauro's words, "The pay is great....", thus he was only going to put up with the job until he didn't needed it any longer.

Yu has once again convoluted the orgins of the SWA and its members once again! And there is so much about the cyborgs that we do not know about, much of this discussion falls into mere spectulation.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 19:19

Well it stands to reason Jean and Jose chose their girls at the same time (within days of each other). We might learn more in the current manga arc covering their back stories since neither is yet a member of Section 2.

As for Pia, I don't consider the first anime nor the video games part of the "official canon" because Yu Aida didn't have a direct hand in them. I have to accept -IL TEATRINO- because Yu co-wrote the screenplays (and that series is much more faithful to the manga because of it). But even if I were to accept Pia, that just means she would also have been converted in early 2004 with Henrietta and Rico. When she says "at the beginning" she could very well be referring to their friendship, not Section 2.

The girl on Page 165 of Volume 2 is clearly Triela. She's arguably carrying her shotgun with the bayonet - while the proportions are off, the front extension is too long to be a flash suppressor on an assault rifle and too thin to be a sound suppressor, so the most logical view is it is her bayonet. Triela has the exact same hair style and barrettes in the title page to Chapter 3 (Volume 1, Page 75). Also, Elsa's pigtails were fully braided while Triela's were not and the girl storming the building doesn't have fully-braided pigtails.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 22:06

@Kiskaloo wrote:Well it stands to reason Jean and Jose chose their girls at the same time (within days of each other). We might learn more in the current manga arc covering their back stories since neither is yet a member of Section 2.
Now this is a 'Opps'...
When Amedeo and Giorgio had their knife fight which Angie stopped, it was Jean who dished out their punishment as a supervisor would. This would mean that Jean was already in a supervising role in Section 2 when Angie was created and the was only cyborg in operation. Being the first handler, Marco should have been in the supervising role and the one who handed them their punishment, but this was not the case. So Jean was already within the SWA organization in a supervising position a long time ago. Jose on the other hand does not seem to have this kind of authority or level of command.

As such, Jean could have had Rico a lot sooner than Jose having Henrietta. And Jose joins the SWA months if not years later after his brother did.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 28 Oct 2009 - 11:49

Why would Marco be the supervisor? He's a handler. His focus would be on training Angelica and assisting the medical staff in evaluating her performance. Acting as an administrator would just detract from that.

The data provided points to Jean and Jose making a decision to become handlers at the same time and selecting their cyborg candidates close together. It is clear from the dialog in the flashback scenes that Jean selected Rico before Jose selected Henrietta, but it's also clear that selection happened at best a few days before and Jean had yet to decide to name his selection Rico. He tells Jose at the hospital that he has made his selection and notes that she is a girl with CFS syndrome abandoned by her parents. If he'd had Rico for months - to say nothing of years - he would not have referred to her that way. He'd have called her Rico.

As for when Jose joined the Agency, he could have joined it before Jean for all we know at this time. Hopefully Yu will reveal when and how they joined the Agency and provide some more information on how Section 2 formed.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Awinnell on Wed 28 Oct 2009 - 15:11

i never understood why Rico having CFS would result in her being hospitalised for life,its the so called Yuppie flu,chronic fatigue syndrome ! makes you tired and lethargic,doesn't make you a candidate for cyborg conversion

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 28 Oct 2009 - 15:17

For the record, I originally thought CF was cystic fibrosis. That would fit the bill better.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 28 Oct 2009 - 16:57

@Kiskaloo wrote:Why would Marco be the supervisor? He's a handler. His focus would be on training Angelica and assisting the medical staff in evaluating her performance. Acting as an administrator would just detract from that.

The data provided points to Jean and Jose making a decision to become handlers at the same time and selecting their cyborg candidates close together. It is clear from the dialog in the flashback scenes that Jean selected Rico before Jose selected Henrietta, but it's also clear that selection happened at best a few days before and Jean had yet to decide to name his selection Rico. He tells Jose at the hospital that he has made his selection and notes that she is a girl with CFS syndrome abandoned by her parents. If he'd had Rico for months - to say nothing of years - he would not have referred to her that way. He'd have called her Rico.

As for when Jose joined the Agency, he could have joined it before Jean for all we know at this time. Hopefully Yu will reveal when and how they joined the Agency and provide some more information on how Section 2 formed.
I will reread V1 on this and go through it with a fine tooth comb tonight. CFS is not a condition which would put you bed ridden in a hospital for life nor is it something you are born with. And if she had CF, that is even worst. Most CF patients die before their 21st birthday- if they do not get a multiple organ transplant at a younger age.

It has always seen to me that Rico was born with either several Phocomelia, effecting all her limbs, Myelomeningocele (aka: Spina Bifida), or anything along those lines that would make her bed ridden for life from birth.

In seeing ho Yu messed up the beginnings of Gunslinger Girl, I will not be surprised if he messes up the these up and coming chapter in the next volume. Plain and simple, he went out to write a good story, which he did. But if you go through it for exacting details, it will fail. This is where I leave it be at times, and have Fanfiction fell in the gaps for me. As is, Yu has not technologically fulfilled GsG in explaination, and I'm sure that is how he would have wanted it. Let us not argue like 1970's Trekkies about what is Trek and what is not, for not even the TV Series and Books written at the time (and even to present date), have not been able to do the same. Yu will be patching the rest of the story in order to satisfy us for the rest of forever, he might as well kill off the whole staff of Section 2 and call it a story.

Again, I read GsG for the stories, not for the technical content that we cant discuss over because of bad interpretations. We all see it differently, and we all will point to bits here and there differently. Lets just respect his work like we respect the fanficts- love it ot hare it, it is there to be respected.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 28 Oct 2009 - 17:34

@Nachtsider wrote:For the record, I originally thought CF was cystic fibrosis. That would fit the bill better.

The original Japanese text is "CFS 症候群" which translates to "CFS Syndrome". Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is rendered in Japanese as "慢性疲労症候群". So it seems clear that CFS is what Rico had. CFS patients can experience joint pain, muscle fatigue and other debilitating symptoms so it is possible that Rico had a very extreme form that rendered her bed-ridden. Rico also noted she'd never been able to leave the hospital, so that does not mean she never left her hospital bed since birth, just that she could not be discharged.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Danjo3 on Thu 29 Oct 2009 - 1:43

@ElfenMagix wrote:Plain and simple, he went out to write a good story, which he did. But if you go through it for exacting details, it will fail.
As Iíve said before, Yu is not exactly a slave to continuity. He has a tendency to bend to GSG universe to fit his stories.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by rusty-spring on Thu 29 Oct 2009 - 2:07


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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 29 Oct 2009 - 3:50

Things would be a lot more cut and dried if Piero were on writing duties.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 29 Oct 2009 - 11:00

@Danjo3 wrote:As Iíve said before, Yu is not exactly a slave to continuity. He has a tendency to bend to GSG universe to fit his stories.

Yup. He's already ret-conned the date the Croces and Sophia died from 2000 to 2002-2003 in the latest arc. Which means Jean may have joined the Agency after Angelica, though that still would allow what we've seen of Jean and Angelica in Volume 2.


@Nachtsider wrote:Things would be a lot more cut and dried if Piero were on writing duties.

Except we probably wouldn't have 11 pages of content, much less 11 volumes. Wink

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 20 Mar 2010 - 10:59

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:For the record, I originally thought CF was cystic fibrosis. That would fit the bill better.

The original Japanese text is "CFS 症候群" which translates to "CFS Syndrome". Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is rendered in Japanese as "慢性疲労症候群". So it seems clear that CFS is what Rico had. CFS patients can experience joint pain, muscle fatigue and other debilitating symptoms so it is possible that Rico had a very extreme form that rendered her bed-ridden. Rico also noted she'd never been able to leave the hospital, so that does not mean she never left her hospital bed since birth, just that she could not be discharged.
CFS is something you get from exposure to the Epstein-Barr Virus, which was associated with flu-shot immunizations in the late 1970's. This condition is something you are not born with. Other research states that CF is associated with exposures to other viral/bacterial influences is connected to other syndromes as well. A Syndrome is a onset of steps one has to go through in order to be diagnosed with the condition, which means one is not simply born with the condition.

Like I stated before, Yu is not a medical expert. Nor is he clearly clarifying what he means in the story. He's throwing up labels to see what fits best, but fails in the technical aspect even though it makes the story goes smoothly. In Rico's case, she has something more debilitating than CF; which is an adult onset condition, and Rico is a child born with something else.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Jacen Starslayer on Sat 20 Mar 2010 - 11:27

With Claes being the "last" First gen cyborg created and instituted I can continue with my original plot line. As it might work.


Last edited by Jacen Starslayer on Sat 20 Mar 2010 - 13:45; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Horrible sentence structure and the like.)

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 12 Feb 2012 - 23:01

@Jacen Starslayer wrote:With Claes being the "last" First gen cyborg created and instituted I can continue with my original plot line. As it might work.
As stated somewhere, Elsa was the last cyborg created- this by Yu Aida's admission of the facts. Yes we argued them before he said this and decided that Claes is the last one but no more after the fact. So Cleas must be one of the last ones before Elsa.

@ElfenMagix wrote:Angie, Triela, Rico, Henrietta, Beatrice, Claes, Elsa, Sylvia, Chiara, and Pia


This much is in evidence:
In the Video Game, Pia yells at Henrietta "We have been friends since the beginning..." which makes it seem like that they came out of the cybernetic process together.

In V1/CH2 and in Season 1/Episode 3, Rico says that she's been a cyborg for 2 years, in her claim of "two years ago I got this new body".

Sylvia's handler asks her how long they have been together in Chapter 61 and Sylvia replies "it was after Chiara, so less then three years, right?".

Chapter 61 happens a year after V1/CH2 and in Season 1/Episode 3. This makes Syliva and Chiara well after after Rico.

Problem Characters:
Beatrice: very little is known of her placement when compared to the others. All that is known is that she is seen a couple of times, once in V1 and another in V2, before her debute in V3(?) (dont have my comics on me right now- but will post the pages when I get home).

Syliva and Chiara: though its stated that they have been around for less than 3 years, it does not say when because there is no definative time line in the GsG Universe.

Elsa as stated to be the last/newest cyborg on the GsG Website done by Yu Aida himself. Since then that info has been taken down for new stuff (new manga volumes and tv episodes, etc.).

placement characters become:
1) Angie (first cyborg Protype), 2) Triela, 3) Rico, 4/5) Henrietta and Pia, ??) Claes, Beatrice, Syliva and Chiara, last) Elsa.


So, what do you have to add, offer of challenge to this?
Personally, I always believed that there were more than just 10 cyborgs. But as the list currently is, this accounts for the 10 Rico had to have been talking about during the investigation of Elsa's death.

And remember, this is of the 10 first Generation Cyborgs... We'll do the Second Generation Cyborgs later...
In reviewing the Pre2000 GsG works, Chiara is shown with Triela, thus she had to have came out sooner than expected or at one time all 10 were living in the cyborg dorms together at the same time.

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ElfenMagix

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Tross on Tue 3 Apr 2012 - 20:24

The order is kind of tricky, because not only is it not stated in the manga or anime, but with multiple cyborgs who are nameless, or have a name, but don't have a big role and lack any kind of back story, it's kind of hard to place a good chunk of them. Triela was shown on a mission during one of the chapters with Angelica's backstory, so I'm assuming she's one of the next set of cyborgs that came at least a good year later.
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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 3 Apr 2012 - 21:00

Tross, there are enough hints and clues to assemble the list we have.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

Post by Il Direttore on Thu 5 Jul 2012 - 14:27

Just so you know, I'm officially going to reference this list from now on for any discussion.

I'm not sure why I'm telling you all this, but it seems like an important thing to make clear for future reference.

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Re: Order of the Cyborgs

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