Difference of ammo

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Guest on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 23:04

Piero wrote:Given that the Kriss is promoted as "The first major breakthrough in automatic weapons operating system design in more then 120 years," I'm not sure the knocking is entirely undeserved...

A good shooter knows better than just to belive whatever it is that some guy/girl (with or without military experience) about a weapon.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Guest on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 23:07

Nuke is Good wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:No .50 Beo? Evil

Dear lord, but the .30 carbine round has terrible penetrating power.

If the M1 Carbine used the .30, I heard stories that the carbine was so weak in Korea that they wiped the slugs from their jackets.

Truly a fake story, I have taken down big game and it even went through a bullet proof vest that I had a long time ago.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by MikhailN on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 23:21

Resent anime fan wrote:
Piero wrote:Given that the Kriss is
promoted as "The first major breakthrough in automatic weapons
operating system design in more then 120 years," I'm not sure the
knocking is entirely undeserved...

A good shooter knows
better than just to belive whatever it is that some guy/girl (with or
without military experience) about a weapon.

Err... that's not entirely correct. If someone told you that this part of the gun is the bolt handle would you believe him? Even if he was absolutely right?

Anyway the Kriss is an unusual design, no matter what you say. Just like the Steyr AUG and SA80 before it, it may just be a trailblazer for the next generation of firearms, just like these two were trailblazers for the bullpup design. Then we'll look back and say, the Kriss was a cool gun. I love hindsight. Very Happy

Resent anime fan wrote:
Nuke is Good wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:No .50 Beo? Evil

Dear lord, but the .30 carbine round has terrible penetrating power.

If the M1 Carbine used the .30, I heard stories that the carbine was so weak in Korea that they wiped the slugs from their jackets.

Truly a fake story, I have taken down big game and it even went through a bullet proof vest that I had a long time ago.

We cannot discount that completely. What was the range they were talking about? If the .30 was fired at 2000yards, then I'd believe you if you wiped the bullets off your jacket. However, if you're talking about 100yards then no, you better call an ambulance.

Who knows, maybe the story was propagated by some idiot who misplaced his sniper rifle and used the M1 carbine to replace it

MikhailN

Forum Posts : 583

Registration date : 2009-06-06

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 23:58

MikhailN wrote:
Resent anime fan wrote:
Nuke is Good wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:No .50 Beo? Evil

Dear lord, but the .30 carbine round has terrible penetrating power.

If the M1 Carbine used the .30, I heard stories that the carbine was so weak in Korea that they wiped the slugs from their jackets.

Truly a fake story, I have taken down big game and it even went through a bullet proof vest that I had a long time ago.

We cannot discount that completely. What was the range they were talking about? If the .30 was fired at 2000yards, then I'd believe you if you wiped the bullets off your jacket. However, if you're talking about 100yards then no, you better call an ambulance.

Who knows, maybe the story was propagated by some idiot who misplaced his sniper rifle and used the M1 carbine to replace it
Actually, I remember hearing of a few cases in the Korean war of this happening.
What was failed to be mentioned was that it was one of the harshest winters in Korean history (-20F temperatures), and equipment kept on freezing. I'm sure that ammo would have a difficult time being fired in those conditions.

ElfenMagix

Forum Posts : 5682

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 0:18

ElfenMagix wrote:Actually, I remember hearing of a few cases in the Korean war of this happening.
What was failed to be mentioned was that it was one of the harshest winters in Korean history (-20F temperatures), and equipment kept on freezing. I'm sure that ammo would have a difficult time being fired in those conditions.

Actually that was put in a postwar US Army report. Moreover, when the M1 Carbines were issued to LRRPs (Long Range Recon Patrols. Recon guys that I still suspect involved snipers) they complained of the lack of stopping power at close range.

MikhailN

Forum Posts : 583

Registration date : 2009-06-06

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 0:32

I've heard stories from American Pacific War vets about how Japanese troops kept on charging at them after being shot seven, eight times with M1 Carbines. Those guys be credible, yo.

Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Forum Posts : 5718

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by LoC978 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 0:45

Resent anime fan wrote:
LoC978 wrote:I guess I should've included other .45ACP SMGs, but I was lazy. As for the Kriss being bullshit... ever fire one? Don't knock it 'til you've tried it, bro.
...
the Kriss is an over-hyped firearm
on this, I agree. I hate what modern 'marketing' has done to anything manufactured...
Resent anime fan wrote:There is no need to fire a firearm to know if its shit
I'm sorry to say it, but that is one flatly ignorant statement.
Resent anime fan wrote:I have handled it (a very rare semi-auto one wich is the civilian version)
they're far from rare. I know a dealer in Woodland, WA who keeps four in stock at all times (two CRBs, two SRBs, one of each with a tacpac). just waiting for surplus funding so I can pick up an SRB with a tacpac.
Resent anime fan wrote:and its just does not feel right in the hand and it jams a lot (becuase it damps the recoil too much to the point it wont cycle the action) its just a Future Weapon....weapon. That Mack is sure one dumb SOB.
well, there's nothing you can do about the feel. if it's wrong for ya, then don't bother with 'em. They're a little more comfortable than an MP5 for me, but that's not sayin' much.
...I'll get used to it.
as for jamming... I've never seen one have 1000 rounds put through it or anything, but I have seen 30 rounds go through one as fast as the guy could pull the trigger, no ill effects... and the recoil isn't so much dampened as it is redirected.
Resent anime fan wrote:No offence if you like it (for whatever reason that is)
none taken, I simply disagree with you. drinkin'

LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Forum Posts : 2628

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 1:51

Nachtsider wrote:I've heard stories from American Pacific War vets
about how Japanese troops kept on charging at them after being shot
seven, eight times with M1 Carbines. Those guys be credible, yo.

I've heard that from a lot of places. Seems that it's not limited to the M1 Carbine. As for the Japanese during WWII... One British commander reported seeing Ghurkas charging a Japanese machine-gun bunker while taking fire from it, throwing down their rifles in front of the bunker and jumping in with their kukris. They cleared the bunker by hacking up the poor guys. I think the Ghurkas had something right there.

LoC978 wrote:
Resent anime fan wrote:There is no need to fire a firearm to know if its shit
I'm sorry to say it, but that is one flatly ignorant statement.

I missed this statement, if not I would have refuted it too. Marketing and stuff can only tell you so much. It's only when you have the gun firing then you can differentiate between "bloody salesman" and "they sure got something right"

LoC978 wrote:
Resent anime fan wrote:and its just does not feel right in the hand and it jams a lot (becuase it damps the recoil too much to the point it wont cycle the action) its just a Future Weapon....weapon. That Mack is sure one dumb SOB.
well, there's nothing you can do about the feel. if it's wrong for ya, then don't bother with 'em. They're a little more comfortable than an MP5 for me, but that's not sayin' much.
...I'll get used to it.
as for jamming... I've never seen one have 1000 rounds put through it or anything, but I have seen 30 rounds go through one as fast as the guy could pull the trigger, no ill effects... and the recoil isn't so much dampened as it is redirected.

That's another reason why you need to have to fire the gun to evaluate it. The difference in physique is another thing to think about. Part of the consideration when designing a weapon is actually the physique of the user and since there's so much variation around the world, they usually settle for one and to heck with the rest

MikhailN

Forum Posts : 583

Registration date : 2009-06-06

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Awinnell on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 8:02

Wiki Quotes (lol, i know ! i know!)

The M1 Carbine was issued to infantry officers, machine gun, artillery and tank crews, paratroopers and other line-of-communications personnel in lieu of the larger, heavier M1 Garand. The Carbine and its reduced-power .30 cartridge was not intended to serve as a primary infantry weapon, nor was it comparable to more powerful intermediate cartridges later developed for assault rifles.

A postwar U.S. Army evaluation reported on the weapon's cold-weather shortcomings, and noted complaints of failure to stop heavily-clothed North Korean and Chinese troops at close range after multiple hits.[3]


A standard .30 carbine ball round weighs 110 grains (7.1 g) m and has a muzzle velocity of 1,900 ft/s (580 m/s) giving it 880 foot-pounds (1,190 joules) of energy. By comparison, a .357 Magnum revolver fires the same weight bullet from a 4-inch (100 mm) barrel at about 1,500 ft/s (460 m/s) for about 550 foot-pounds force (750 Nm) of energy, though it is important to note that the .357 bullet is larger in diameter (caliber) and is normally an expanding or hollow-point design.[1] The .30 carbine was developed from the .32 Winchester Self-Loading used in an early semi-auto sporting rifle; both rounds are comparable to the .32-20 Winchester round used in carbines and revolvers.

The popularity of the M1 Carbine for collecting, sporting, and re-enactment use has resulted in continued civilian popularity of the .30 Carbine cartridge. For hunting, it is considered a small-game cartridge, of marginal power for deer-size game.[2] Even in long-barreled carbines, military-style full metal jacket projectiles do not expand, causing little tissue damage. In addition, the high sectional density of the projectile causes the bullet to overpenetrate.

Awinnell
Stiff Upper Lip

Forum Posts : 2131

Registration date : 2008-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Awinnell on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 8:18

Resent anime fan wrote:
Nuke is Good wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:No .50 Beo? Evil

Dear lord, but the .30 carbine round has terrible penetrating power.

If the M1 Carbine used the .30, I heard stories that the carbine was so weak in Korea that they wiped the slugs from their jackets.

Truly a fake story, I have taken down big game and it even went through a bullet proof vest that I had a long time ago.

is true, the cold affected the ammo,greatly reducing its effectivness, on top of which the Chinese wore thick padded uniforms in the winter(better than anything the UN forces were wearing) and the guys using the carbine tended to open fire at extreme range, it is after all firing a slightly bigger pistol type , round nosed bullet,not a pointed high velocity boat tail round, as for it penetrating a bullet proof vest which rating was it? I,II ,or III ,plus the variables,if the vest isn't rated that high then of course it will penetrate !

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are living in the smelly cloud of gods fart,one day the universe will end in a great cloud of airfreshener
avatar
Awinnell
Stiff Upper Lip

Male

Forum Posts : 2131

Location : Hereford,England

Fan of : Triela,asuka

Original Characters : not yet

Comments : Loves to quote Wikipedia. Loves to use exclamation marks even more.

wish i knew who put that in there, it wasn't me !!!!!!!!!!!!


Registration date : 2008-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Guest on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 18:57

Nachtsider wrote:I've heard stories from American Pacific War vets about how Japanese troops kept on charging at them after being shot seven, eight times with M1 Carbines. Those guys be credible, yo.

HAHAH that was very funny. I bet thouse just missed and said that the gun was underpowered becuase 900 foot pound of energy (wich is what the .30 cal produces) is more than enough to kill a human.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 19:03

I doubt a .30 produces that impact energy across the entire distance that bullet can travel. Nor do I expect that it produces that energy if it has to punch it's way through obstacles.

And Japanese soldiers were known for their bravery/stupidity when it came to "fighting for the Emperor" and they could have been under the influence of sake or other drugs which would have dampened their response to pain for rounds that did not impact with immediately lethal energies or immediately lethal trajectories.

So I personally see no reason to dismiss such claims as non-credible or as deliberate falsifications to cover up their own incompetence as riflemen.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What? I like donuts! - Betty Suarez
If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
Scissors of victory! - Yui Hirasawa
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10896

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Guest on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 19:08

Awinnell wrote:
Resent anime fan wrote:
Nuke is Good wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:No .50 Beo? Evil

Dear lord, but the .30 carbine round has terrible penetrating power.

If the M1 Carbine used the .30, I heard stories that the carbine was so weak in Korea that they wiped the slugs from their jackets.

Truly a fake story, I have taken down big game and it even went through a bullet proof vest that I had a long time ago.

is true, the cold affected the ammo,greatly reducing its effectivness, on top of which the Chinese wore thick padded uniforms in the winter(better than anything the UN forces were wearing) and the guys using the carbine tended to open fire at extreme range, it is after all firing a slightly bigger pistol type , round nosed bullet,not a pointed high velocity boat tail round, as for it penetrating a bullet proof vest which rating was it? I,II ,or III ,plus the variables,if the vest isn't rated that high then of course it will penetrate !

Not sure wich tipe of body armour it was all I know is that it was plated in the front, back and sides so it was preety heavy stuff and the distance was about 150 metters with 115 gr FMJs.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Guest on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 19:10

Kiskaloo wrote:I doubt a .30 produces that impact energy across the entire distance that bullet can travel. Nor do I expect that it produces that energy if it has to punch it's way through obstacles.

And Japanese soldiers were known for their bravery/stupidity when it came to "fighting for the Emperor" and they could have been under the influence of sake or other drugs which would have dampened their response to pain for rounds that did not impact with immediately lethal energies or immediately lethal trajectories.

So I personally see no reason to dismiss such claims as non-credible or as deliberate falsifications to cover up their own incompetence as riflemen.

It keeps up the energy preety well at 300 metters withought having a drastic impact on the round. Drugs can dampen it yes but not to the point of 8 rounds.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 19:31

Resent anime fan wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:I doubt a .30 produces that impact energy across the entire distance that bullet can travel. Nor do I expect that it produces that energy if it has to punch it's way through obstacles.

And Japanese soldiers were known for their bravery/stupidity when it came to "fighting for the Emperor" and they could have been under the influence of sake or other drugs which would have dampened their response to pain for rounds that did not impact with immediately lethal energies or immediately lethal trajectories.

So I personally see no reason to dismiss such claims as non-credible or as deliberate falsifications to cover up their own incompetence as riflemen.

It keeps up the energy preety well at 300 metters withought having a drastic impact on the round. Drugs can dampen it yes but not to the point of 8 rounds.

Oh you never know. Case study: Delta Force in Somalia reported that the rebels there were doped so high on drugs that when they got hit they continued charging at the US boys with knives. Nothing short of a hit to the brainstem or spinal cord would stop them.

Now, about lethality of ammo there's hundreds of theories. One of the groups say that FMJ rounds don't transfer all the kinetic energy into the body so it's not as effective. That's how you get evil ammo like Hollow-Points, Hydra-Shok and, God forbid, Black Talons. Another bunch says that the ammo's doing just fine when it moves along at supersonic speed because of the shock wave it creates as it passes through tissue. Yet another bunch says that at close range the bullet does not have enough distance to stabilize its flight and so its killing power and accuracy is affected (IMO they don't know what they're talking about)

Of course there's more, but I don't feel like talking about them here. Personally, I lean towards the transfer of kinetic energy one

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


avatar
MikhailN

Male

Forum Posts : 583

Location : SWA, teaching the little girls to kick rear

Fan of : Triela

Registration date : 2009-06-06

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Guest on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 20:25

MikhailN wrote:
Resent anime fan wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:I doubt a .30 produces that impact energy across the entire distance that bullet can travel. Nor do I expect that it produces that energy if it has to punch it's way through obstacles.

And Japanese soldiers were known for their bravery/stupidity when it came to "fighting for the Emperor" and they could have been under the influence of sake or other drugs which would have dampened their response to pain for rounds that did not impact with immediately lethal energies or immediately lethal trajectories.

So I personally see no reason to dismiss such claims as non-credible or as deliberate falsifications to cover up their own incompetence as riflemen.

It keeps up the energy preety well at 300 metters withought having a drastic impact on the round. Drugs can dampen it yes but not to the point of 8 rounds.

Oh you never know. Case study: Delta Force in Somalia reported that the rebels there were doped so high on drugs that when they got hit they continued charging at the US boys with knives. Nothing short of a hit to the brainstem or spinal cord would stop them.

Now, about lethality of ammo there's hundreds of theories. One of the groups say that FMJ rounds don't transfer all the kinetic energy into the body so it's not as effective. That's how you get evil ammo like Hollow-Points, Hydra-Shok and, God forbid, Black Talons. Another bunch says that the ammo's doing just fine when it moves along at supersonic speed because of the shock wave it creates as it passes through tissue. Yet another bunch says that at close range the bullet does not have enough distance to stabilize its flight and so its killing power and accuracy is affected (IMO they don't know what they're talking about)

Of course there's more, but I don't feel like talking about them here. Personally, I lean towards the transfer of kinetic energy one

Like I said 3-4 rounds is more than enough to stop junkies in their tracks. My statement was made after I killed a hog at 300 meter range and he went down....like all do. Drugs do damp the pain but not the damage.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by LoC978 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 21:13

...a good portion of the damage a firearm does is shock. PCP and many other drugs, especially morphine or other opiates, essentially prevent shock from occurring. The victim will still suffer the damage of a bullet ripping through them, but as Mikhail said, unless you deliver direct trauma to the brain or spinal column, they won't drop until whatever system you've disabled in them causes a cascading failure. Lung-shot people have been known to survive for hours. heart-shot... minutes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by rshackleford on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 22:33

Mozambique drill will take care of that problem.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


avatar
rshackleford

Male

Forum Posts : 85

Fan of : Leon the Professional

Registration date : 2008-04-23

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Guest on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 22:42

LoC978 wrote:...a good portion of the damage a firearm does is shock. PCP and many other drugs, especially morphine or other opiates, essentially prevent shock from occurring. The victim will still suffer the damage of a bullet ripping through them, but as Mikhail said, unless you deliver direct trauma to the brain or spinal column, they won't drop until whatever system you've disabled in them causes a cascading failure. Lung-shot people have been known to survive for hours. heart-shot... minutes.

Then so be it, I will shoot to the head when I join the Army.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by LoC978 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 23:20

rshackleford wrote:Mozambique drill will take care of that problem.
the only problem with that technique (double-tap center of mass followed by an aimed shot to the head, for anyone out of the loop on this one) is that it relies on the first two shots to slow the target down. Depending on the caliber of your weapon (among other factors) they may very well fail to do even that much. In close quarters combat, you don't always have time to aim for the head, so you have to be prepared to strike or deflect with your rifle, and sometimes even grapple with the junkie until his organs give up due to the holes you punched in him on the approach.
So basically, practice your reflexive headshots, kids!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Guest on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 23:42

LoC978 wrote:
rshackleford wrote:Mozambique drill will take care of that problem.
the only problem with that technique (double-tap center of mass followed by an aimed shot to the head, for anyone out of the loop on this one) is that it relies on the first two shots to slow the target down. Depending on the caliber of your weapon (among other factors) they may very well fail to do even that much. In close quarters combat, you don't always have time to aim for the head, so you have to be prepared to strike or deflect with your rifle, and sometimes even grapple with the junkie until his organs give up due to the holes you punched in him on the approach.
So basically, practice your reflexive headshots, kids!

I will shoot straight to the head, no dubble-tap (well maybe to the head). Cant wait to join the Army and get me an M16A4 (or better yet a DMR M16A4 with ACOG) gppd thing I practice constantly.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by MikhailN on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 8:27

The US Army teaches their soldiers to aim for the centre of mass because under fire you don't shoot that straight, no matter how much you train. So aiming for the centre of mass ensures that you at least hit the guy, even it you're a little off.

The Mozambique Drill was designed so that you get the first shot off and hit the guy. The idea is that aiming for the centre of mass is easier to ensure a hit than to aim for the head which is a smaller target. It's not so much about doling out headshots like you're aimbotting but doing something useful when people are shooting at you.

Note1: The one who came up with the Mozambique Drill died in combat. Obviously it didn't work for him

Note2: Headshots aren't always lethal. Try this case study http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahad_Israfil

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


avatar
MikhailN

Male

Forum Posts : 583

Location : SWA, teaching the little girls to kick rear

Fan of : Triela

Registration date : 2009-06-06

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Awinnell on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 8:39

Blame the Hague convention,it is responsible for banning the use of soft nosed or lead exposed tip bullets in Military combat,mind you it only applied in conflicts between western armies originally,it was quite legal to use Dum Dums against Native tribesman,they also allowed the use of square bullets against them .

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are living in the smelly cloud of gods fart,one day the universe will end in a great cloud of airfreshener
avatar
Awinnell
Stiff Upper Lip

Male

Forum Posts : 2131

Location : Hereford,England

Fan of : Triela,asuka

Original Characters : not yet

Comments : Loves to quote Wikipedia. Loves to use exclamation marks even more.

wish i knew who put that in there, it wasn't me !!!!!!!!!!!!


Registration date : 2008-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 8:45

What was the rationale behind banning them, again?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by MikhailN on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 8:50

Nachtsider wrote:What was the rationale behind banning them, again?

They (At least for JHPs) fragment in the body, so it was considered unethical. After all, if you get shot in the stomach by a JHP, your whole stomach would be turned to mush, so not much hope there. The wounds would be way too horrible. There are other banned ammo, like using incendiary rounds against personnel but still can be used in anti-material roles.

Do note that some countries still use specialized Hollow-Points for long range shooting. It's more accurate and they (the shooters) say that the kills with it are more humane.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


avatar
MikhailN

Male

Forum Posts : 583

Location : SWA, teaching the little girls to kick rear

Fan of : Triela

Registration date : 2009-06-06

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 8:52

Humane? I thought this was war, and turning people into mush WAS the idea... Puzzled

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by MikhailN on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 9:01

Nachtsider wrote:Humane? I thought this was war, and turning people into mush WAS the idea... Puzzled

I dunno. I've never been shot by one but I'm under the impression that you at least have a chance of survival if you get shot by an FMJ than if you get shot by a frangible or incendiary round and that's why they say it's unethical. I think they have got their ideas messed up

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


avatar
MikhailN

Male

Forum Posts : 583

Location : SWA, teaching the little girls to kick rear

Fan of : Triela

Registration date : 2009-06-06

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Awinnell on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 9:10

actually from a military standpoint it does make more sense to injure an enemy soldier,if you kill him he's dead one less problem right ?
but if you injure him one or two of his comrades have to save him taking them out of the frontline,then you have the logistical trouble of getting him to hospital and treating him, and then you have to evacuate him,and all of this takes people to achieve,the more injured soldiers you have the more people it takes to care for them and that means fewer people at the front.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are living in the smelly cloud of gods fart,one day the universe will end in a great cloud of airfreshener
avatar
Awinnell
Stiff Upper Lip

Male

Forum Posts : 2131

Location : Hereford,England

Fan of : Triela,asuka

Original Characters : not yet

Comments : Loves to quote Wikipedia. Loves to use exclamation marks even more.

wish i knew who put that in there, it wasn't me !!!!!!!!!!!!


Registration date : 2008-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by MikhailN on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 9:13

Awinnell wrote:actually from a military standpoint it does make more sense to injure an enemy soldier,if you kill him he's dead one less problem right ?
but if you injure him one or two of his comrades have to save him taking them out of the frontline,then you have the logistical trouble of getting him to hospital and treating him, and then you have to evacuate him,and all of this takes people to achieve,the more injured soldiers you have the more people it takes to care for them and that means fewer people at the front.

That's one way of looking at it. In fact, that was the doctrine for the US Army at one point - Just hit the guy and put him out of action. However, in recent years it seems that it's not working as well. Combatants that get hit sometimes get back up on their feet and continue fighting Guh? . Almost nightmarish

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


avatar
MikhailN

Male

Forum Posts : 583

Location : SWA, teaching the little girls to kick rear

Fan of : Triela

Registration date : 2009-06-06

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Awinnell on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 9:33

well the recent conflicts are guerilla warfare,and thats more everyman for himself,they don't have a logistical support team so they don't care about their comrades so much and couldn't do anything for them even if they did,the US and its NATO allies on the other hand do have logistical support and expects their wounded and Dead to be recovered, so injuring them would make more sense

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are living in the smelly cloud of gods fart,one day the universe will end in a great cloud of airfreshener
avatar
Awinnell
Stiff Upper Lip

Male

Forum Posts : 2131

Location : Hereford,England

Fan of : Triela,asuka

Original Characters : not yet

Comments : Loves to quote Wikipedia. Loves to use exclamation marks even more.

wish i knew who put that in there, it wasn't me !!!!!!!!!!!!


Registration date : 2008-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by LoC978 on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 12:09

hit the nail on the head ye did laddie.

this is why I spent my four years on active duty constantly making fun of our issued weapons. they're designed to wound, and we need killers.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 13:41

I've always been of the opinion that unless permanently disabled, injured soldiers don't really count as casualties. A dead man won't trouble you anymore, but an injured guy can always come back and fight you another day.

The only instance where I would consider it worth injuring someone instead of killing them would be wounding an enemy trooper in order to lure his comrades out into the open to rescue him or carry him out of harm's way (see Full Metal Jacket). But the climax would involve me mowing them all down, anyway...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Awinnell on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 14:09

which only works if you are fighting people who think like you, otherwise its all Insh'Allah !

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are living in the smelly cloud of gods fart,one day the universe will end in a great cloud of airfreshener
avatar
Awinnell
Stiff Upper Lip

Male

Forum Posts : 2131

Location : Hereford,England

Fan of : Triela,asuka

Original Characters : not yet

Comments : Loves to quote Wikipedia. Loves to use exclamation marks even more.

wish i knew who put that in there, it wasn't me !!!!!!!!!!!!


Registration date : 2008-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Nuke is Good on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 17:19

LoC978 wrote:hit the nail on the head ye did laddie.

this is why I spent my four years on active duty constantly making fun of our issued weapons. they're designed to wound, and we need killers.

So this is why my dad never liked this Colt Commander. Actually he hated most of the issued weapons he got (but for some reason he likes the M16, and the version the Philippines got was the infamous Vietnam jammy one).
avatar
Nuke is Good

Male

Forum Posts : 326

Location : New Jersey

Fan of : Henrietta

Original Characters : Rc v1

Registration date : 2008-04-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 31 Jul 2009 - 0:12



The round on top is a .50 BFG round.

Below it is the 20x110mm Hispano round that Dante put through Beatrice with the Denen NTW20.

Guh?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What? I like donuts! - Betty Suarez
If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
Scissors of victory! - Yui Hirasawa
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10896

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 31 Jul 2009 - 1:56

It's an explosive round, ennit? All that erupting payload's probably where the bigger size comes from.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of ammo

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum