bomb...again

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bomb...again

Post by akaciparaci on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 2:12

it's been like a big news at my place, but not all that great in here

so here's a link as to what happened
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2009/07/17/indonesia-bomb-explosions-at-kuningan-jakarta/

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 2:21

Jemaah Islamiah = terrorist swine

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Re: bomb...again

Post by akaciparaci on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 2:41

please refrain from pointing fingers, whether it's true or not, best just leave it alone. idk but maybe there's a member of this forum who is a Muslim, just keep the peace on
BTW, why is Islam often connected with act of terrorism? 9/11?

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Re: bomb...again

Post by KodokuRyuu on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 3:42

akaciparaci wrote:BTW, why is Islam often connected with act of terrorism? 9/11?
Because the Qur'an says something along the lines of kill those who refuse to believe. And I believe these is an Islamic teaching that if you take out "infidels" with you when you die, you increase your chances of going to heaven. That coupled with the 9/11 attack which was done by Muslims pretty much has labeled the religion as terroristic, at least in the US.
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Re: bomb...again

Post by LoC978 on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 4:16

that's another twisting of the words, of course, but that's what illiterate Muslims are TOLD it says Wink


...here's a good one from the Qur'an:
O unbelievers, I serve not what you serve and you are not serving what I serve, nor am I serving what you have served, neither are you serving what I serve. To you your religion, and to me my religion!

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Re: bomb...again

Post by MikhailN on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 5:06

LoC978 wrote:that's another twisting of the words, of course, but that's what illiterate Muslims are TOLD it says Wink


...here's a good one from the Qur'an:
O unbelievers, I serve not what you serve and you are not serving what I serve, nor am I serving what you have served, neither are you serving what I serve. To you your religion, and to me my religion!

Puzzled Ok that line is so ambiguous that it depends a lot on the interpretation of the iman. The sad thing is that the iman has a lot of power (If you think about it, religious leaders represent their respective Gods so whatever they say carries a lot of clout) so the poor guys are running to their deaths based on what their iman says. Note that the bulk of the Muslim community does not condone the actions of the radicals. They say that Islam is a religion of peace (I tend to believe the moderates. After all, it makes more sense if your followers live and spread the religion than to fight and die. That's how religions survive over the ages Wink ) and the radical bunch are just a minority. Bloody vocal minority if you ask me

KodokuRyuu wrote:
akaciparaci wrote:BTW, why is Islam often
connected with act of terrorism? 9/11?
Because the Qur'an says
something along the lines of kill those who refuse to believe. And I
believe these is an Islamic teaching that if you take out "infidels"
with you when you die, you increase your chances of going to heaven.
That coupled with the 9/11 attack which was done by Muslims pretty much
has labeled the religion as terroristic, at least in the US.

That's a misconception that the "bloody vocal minority" spreads.


Last edited by MikhailN on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 5:09; edited 1 time in total

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 5:08

akaciparaci wrote:please refrain from pointing fingers, whether it's true or not, best just leave it alone. idk but maybe there's a member of this forum who is a Muslim, just keep the peace on
BTW, why is Islam often connected with act of terrorism? 9/11?
I'm insulting a terrorist organization (which Jemaah Islamiah is), not Muslims. Are you not okay with me insulting a terrorist organization, one that's killed numerous innocent people?

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Re: bomb...again

Post by MikhailN on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 5:19

Nachtsider wrote:
akaciparaci wrote:please refrain from pointing fingers, whether it's true or not, best just leave it alone. idk but maybe there's a member of this forum who is a Muslim, just keep the
peace on BTW, why is Islam often connected with act of terrorism? 9/11?
I'm insulting a terrorist organization, not Muslims. Are you not okay with me insulting a terrorist organization, one that's killed numerous innocent people?

I think there's something that he doesn't know that the both of us do (I'm studying in Singapore now so I'm familiar with JI)

Jemaah Islamiah is a radical bunch in South East Asia that has links with Al-Qaida. Remember the bombings in Bali some years ago? Yup that's them. They're based largely in Indonesia. The problem with cracking down on JI as a terrorist organization is that the words "Jemaah Islamiah" has a nice meaning in Indonesian (I think it's something like Glory of Islam) and a lot of charitable organizations have these 2 words in their names. So if the government passes a law going after JI there's going to be a lot of problems. But that's beside the point. JI does do bombings in the region and if you ignore the technicalities, they are a violent terrorist organization.

@Nacht - Am I right so far?

Anyway to be fair, there are non-Muslim terrorist organizations in the world. Just that the Muslim radical ones somehow seem to hog headlines. I blame the media

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 5:22

Absolutely correct, Mik, except for one bit. Our friend's from Indonesia, so I find it hard to believe that he doesn't know about JI - it also makes his earlier statement all the more puzzling. I'll suppose I'll have to wait for him to explain himself.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by MikhailN on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 5:25

Nachtsider wrote:Absolutely correct, Mik, except for one bit. Our friend's from Indonesia, so I find it hard to believe that he doesn't know about JI - it also makes his earlier statement all the more puzzling. I'll suppose I'll have to wait for him to explain himself.

Puzzled I was really under the impression that he was from Europe or US and misunderstood you. Whatever then Very Happy

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Awinnell on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 6:25

all religions have a fanatical fringe,the difference on the whole is a matter of scale,most terrorist organisations limit themselves to the countries they come from,Al Quida and its many splinter off shoots do not,there are many aspects of Islam that are worthy,it is a shame however that these aspects are ignored by the extremists.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by LoC978 on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 6:47

Awinnell wrote: ...ignored by the extremists.
I prefer to think of it as 'carefully covered up in order to advance a personal/political agenda'. I'm fully convinced that the those at the top of the extremist factions get it wrong on purpose.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Awinnell on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 6:55

the reason so many interpretations can be found is simple,


From a religious perspective, the sacred Word of God was revealed in Arabic, and only the Arabic text is "absolute", and English (or otherwise) translation is naturally flawed because it has been written with the mind of Man, not God.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by LoC978 on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 7:05

...but what of differing interpretations among native Arabic speakers? I've known quite a few multilingual ones who bashed extremist views pretty much constantly.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by MikhailN on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 7:11

LoC978 wrote:...but what of differing interpretations among native Arabic speakers? I've known quite a few multilingual ones who bashed extremist views pretty much constantly.

Like I mentioned above, some passages are so ambiguous that there can be a few interpretations of the same few words. Fortunately the mainstream Muslim view is that Islam preaches peace and tolerance and the ones that hog the headlines are the radical minority.

Oh man... I just heard on the news that a hotel got bombed in Indonesia. Terrible

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Awinnell on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 7:22

The ambiguety of certain texts leads to self inserted interpretations,i've seen Qur'ans with tissue paper inserts,though like all religious texts interpretation today is a lot harder due to the simple fact it was written in the past !

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Re: bomb...again

Post by LoC978 on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 7:35

indeed. just like all of 'em, to understand the context, you have to understand the culture of the time and place it was written.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 8:56

Awinnell wrote:the reason so many interpretations can be found is simple:

From a religious perspective, the sacred Word of God was revealed in Arabic, and only the Arabic text is "absolute", and English (or otherwise) translation is naturally flawed because it has been written with the mind of Man, not God.

As Islam lacks a supreme spiritual leader, each Imam is an authority unto themselves. So one Imam can issue a fatwā that you respect non-believers while another can issue a fatwā that you kill them and each fatwā has equal standing. It is up to the individual to decide which fatwā to follow.

In Roman Catholicism, for example, the Pope is the supreme religious leader. A Papal encyclical is the one and only interpretation of Catholic doctrine on a given subject and no lesser church official can countermand it.

As to why only Muslims can be terrorists in the Western World, as noted, that is a combination of a general bias in both the media (who only widely report acts of terror perpetrated by Islamic groups) and governments (whose leadership are predominately Christian/Catholic) who together collectively label Islam as "extremist" and "fundamentalist" while ignoring the extremism and fundamentalism of their own religions. Yes, they do try and explain that only "part" of Islam is "bad", but when the general population only hears the word "terrorist" coupled with the word "Islam", they come to believe that only Islamic people are terrorists and/or that all Islamic people are terrorists.

And in the US, as well, there is an immensely powerful Jewish lobby which generates significant support for the Israeli State and their "struggle" against the Arabs who wish to "push them into the sea". And over the past decade, this group has been bolstered, especially at a governmental level under the second Bush Administration, by "Christian Zionists" - fundamentalist Christians who believe that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ cannot happen until the State of Israel controls all of its original territory as outlined in the Old Testament. So they want to see the Palestinians "pushed into the sea" (or at least into Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon) and the Occupied Territories fully incorporated into the Jewish State and populated solely by Jews.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by MikhailN on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 9:21

Currently the word "terrorist" is debatable and sometimes it does have political undertones. My view is this.

Thousands of years of evolution gave us mouths, vocal cords and the power of speech. One of the things that animals don't have. Disagreements can always be solved through that avenue. When we resort to violence instead of talking out our problems we are giving up one of the things that separate us from animals to fight like them. How pathetic.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Guest on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 17:38

Why am I not surprised...

When was the last bomb? 2004? 2005? Gomen, I'm currently keeping my eyes more on North Korea and the Middle East. Anyway, 5 years of peace went straight out of the window.

You know? The act of terrorism actually dated back to the 18th century from Russia--that's the first time they use explosives. First victim is none other than Tsar Alexander II, assassinated by a suicide bomber from 'The People's Will'

But that part is irrelevant. Anyway...

Jemaah Islamiah = terrorist swine
Is that a new terrorist cell?

Now, as I'm writing this while digging some stuff from friends online, isn't the Presidential election occurred recently? I don't know, but I hope someone could confirm this: did the 'past' president got reelected? I mean, the president from 4-5 years ago.

I have strange suspicion this bombing doesn't relate anything with the Jemah-whatever-they-are and it is more inclined politically? You know, like Kennedy in the US back in the 60s? The idea of pulling up the name of the 'usual' terrorist seems like a reason to put a scapegoat on somebody.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by MikhailN on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 19:17

Panzer IV wrote:Why am I not surprised...

When was the last
bomb? 2004? 2005? Gomen, I'm currently keeping my eyes more on North
Korea and the Middle East. Anyway, 5 years of peace went straight out
of the window.

Last time a bomb went off in South East Asia was probably about 5-6 years ago, when Marriott was bombed.

Panzer IV wrote:
Jemaah Islamiah = terrorist swine
Is that a new terrorist cell?

Definitely not. They've been around and raising hell for ages. Just
that other groups like Abu Sayyaf snatch the limelight away from them.

Panzer IV wrote:Now, as I'm writing this while digging some stuff
from friends online, isn't the Presidential election occurred recently?
I don't know, but I hope someone could confirm this: did the 'past'
president got reelected? I mean, the president from 4-5 years ago.

I
have strange suspicion this bombing doesn't relate anything with the
Jemah-whatever-they-are and it is more inclined politically? You know,
like Kennedy in the US back in the 60s? The idea of pulling up the name
of the 'usual' terrorist seems like a reason to put a scapegoat on
somebody.

Ah a conspiracy theory. Very Happy

Yes the presidential election took place on July 8. It was the one where a bunch of registered voters weren't on the voting list. Coming from the 4th most populous nation in the world, that means a few million people :lol!: . To be fair, compiling a list of registered voters in Indonesia is no mean feat at all. Anyway that little hiccup was solved quite amicably so no problem there. It will take a bit of time to finish counting and the results will be out on Oct 8, I think

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 0:27

Panzer, none of the victims were politicians. They were Western businessmen who were at the hotel for a trade meeting.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Guest on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 1:34

Panzer, none of the victims were politicians. They were Western businessmen who were at the hotel for a trade meeting.

That's the point. Western Businessmen. Businessmen were basically the battery and lifelines in an economically growing country as they provide steady income with trade. I've been digging about this stuff since this morning. Apparently there's a group who wants to turn Indonesia into an Iranian Islamic state.

I kinda have the idea that the bomb was meant to cripple the country's economy and give a hard time for the new president...or the old if he gets reelected. Then again, it could be an act of protest of some sort relating to the election--maybe the result? I heard there's some issues with one of the presidential candidate. There's thousands of possibilities and not enough facts to dig-up from over here. Someone over there should confirm this, anyone?

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Re: bomb...again

Post by destroyer on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 2:20

ok. i'm there, so i'll reply some.

the only definite outcome of this bomb was MU canceling their trip to Indonesia.

there's 2 hotels were being bombed, rich carlton and merriot (again).
btw, rich carlton was where MU player should spend their night here.

the only identified victim by far is only Holcim's President Director for Indonesia. dead. total 9 dead.

there's a lot of rumor by now. some said it's terrorist, some said it's military, etc. it's true that's there's president election by now, but we can't be sure is it related or not.

Indonesia will never be Islamic Country, because the idiot extremist population is not that high. what they have done is not what they called it jihad, that's just worsen their religion name. I HATE THEM.

JI = Jemaah Islamiah. in English it can be translated as "a group of mulsims". eat s***.

i don't know what they so hate about foreign people. i mean it. foreign people. not just western. they even don't like chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. just call it yellow skinned.

Who ever the leader, he must be not muslim. because no religion will allow to kill anyone as they pleased. The bad news is, some Imam here, even though said they against it in public, i'm suspecting that they actually encourage it. and there's some people who openly support them. JERK!!

i know about the text in quran that mention about "legal kill". well, it's in a movie called fitna. find it at you tube.

in my opinion, it become like this because they treat their religion as ideology. fools!!!

ok, more than this, i'll be banned from this forum for what i have said. lol.

i thing for sure, i wouldn't mind they're strucked by thunder while they're relaxing.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 2:52

I think that at least we can find comfort that the actions of the bombers aren't supported by the masses. In fact, from this forum we can see that most of the Muslims don't support terrorism. That's a very good sign

Oh? I was aware that Jemaah Islamiah has a fairly pleasant meaning to it (see one of my posts above). Ok now I know it means "group of Muslims."

And yes, no religion advocates the taking of life and Islam is no exception. Concerning captured terrorists, Singapore has a programme that US is trying to emulate. What they did is to get Muslim imans to talk to the terrorists. You know, religious leader using the Koran to show the poor guy where he's gone wrong before letting him go and I think it's better than just locking them up. The point on interest here is that the imans reported that those people's view of Islam is vey warped.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Guest on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 13:17

Well, we'll just have to see how things will unfold further on. I always have a hunch there's a mastermind somewhere using those people for his/her personal benefit. The facts gathered about them were probably just a tip of the ice berg.

...kinda scary if there's actually someone out there who wants to start a 3rd World War .

i don't know what they so hate about foreign people. i mean it. foreign
people. not just western. they even don't like chinese, Japanese,
Korean, etc. just call it yellow skinned.
Well lets see...in a manner of sarcasm...

1. The Chinese took over their business, get fat and rich while they stay in the slump grumbling and extorting
2. We invaded them. Kick their ass for awhile until we were forced to pull out.
3. The Korean...uh...invades their television and took over their TV channel with their dramas?
4. American is just because being an American

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Re: bomb...again

Post by LoC978 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 13:37

you forgot Europeans and Africans, man.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:50

KodokuRyuu wrote:
akaciparaci wrote:BTW, why is Islam often connected with act of terrorism? 9/11?
Because the Qur'an says something along the lines of kill those who refuse to believe. And I believe these is an Islamic teaching that if you take out "infidels" with you when you die, you increase your chances of going to heaven.

Personally, I believe most Islamic terrorist actions to be Salifist self-interest through fundamentalism. The Qur'an does not ever bluntly explain anything so it leaves itself to gross interpretation(and misinterpretation) as it borrows heavily from multiple sources ranging from the Scrolls of Abraham to the Judaic Torah to the 8-center polytheistic teachings of Babylon(which is apparent in the Five Pillars teachings). Philosophically it almost parallels older Judeo-gnostic teachings.

This very much extends to the perception of heaven in Islam as you can never so much as smell pork, pray on time; every time, and pretty much live the Islamic lifestyle with a fine toothed comb and still not make it into heaven.

Jihad is the only virtually guaranteed method of entering into heaven, however the literal translation of jihad is to struggle and again the Qur'an gives a general thesis without ever explaining exactly what struggles are deemed worthy of being Qur'anic Jihad.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:58

And then there is the fact that both the Qur'an and Islam itself were conceived by Muhammad as a way to conduct one's life and not as a religion dedicated to describing how one worships a higher power (Allāh).

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Re: bomb...again

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:59

boomer_gonz wrote:Jihad is the only virtually guaranteed method of entering into heaven, however the literal translation of jihad is to struggle and again the Qur'an gives a general thesis without ever explaining exactly what struggles are deemed worthy of being Qur'anic Jihad.

Puzzled I'm under the impression that Jihad is a spiritual struggle in the name of Allah to improve yourself. So there's stuff like Jihad of the tongue or Jihad against yourself. Of course there's the idiot who took the meaning literally and is making a mess of the place

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Re: bomb...again

Post by akaciparaci on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 3:27

lol, forgive me Nacht, since i don't really care about the news recently
only after i respond to your post that i learned what Jemaah Islamiah means, i thought you're insulting the Muslims
again, forgive me okay Very Happy ??

and also, i remember there was a film produced by an European. the film itself didn't insult the religion, but it only compares what was written in the Quran with actual footage. what was the name?

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 4:05

Hey, it's all cool. Don't worry 'bout it. As Destroyer has shown, it actually is possible for one to misunderstand my first post. Razz

I think you're referring to the film Destroyer mentioned above. 'Fitna' by Geert Wilders.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Guest on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 6:45

I have this strange though in my head...

Since I have some thoughts that these terrorists were actually manipulated by the head preacher to justify their actions, and since the Qur-an is printed in its original language (arab)...

...why not translate it? Sure its against their 'law', but isn't it the same with the Bible back in the 16th century? It was illegal to translate the Bible back then, and as a result the Church has the power over the king and could easily manipulate the dumb populace who can't read the Bible in Hebrew (or was it Latin?). It was not until a number of individuals strong in their belief translates the book despite all the resistance and voila! There you have it today.

Isn't it the same case of ignorance? If there's actually someone stupid enough to translate the Qur-an and print it en-mass and spread it all around, I'll applaud that idiot and say 'way to go' cause that means he's spreading truth--then it can also mark the end of most Islamic terrorist organization who seem to have 'justification' of their actions. That idiot would immediately rise to the ranks of celebrity as a hero that ends the 'War on Terror' or draws the winning card that will end the 'war'.

Its like this, If God wrote a book and told us to believe and follow him wouldn't that mean he wants everyone to be able to read it rather than having a number of individuals able to read it?

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 7:02

The Koran was translated a long time ago. English versions of the book are all over the place.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by LoC978 on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 11:50

but, just like the torah and the bible, those translations are dubious, and often contested by native speakers of the original language.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 12:04

And since the original Qur'an was written in Arabic as the language existed in the 7th Century, the language has changed in the intervening centuries so it may not be possible to perform a "purely accurate" translation.

Also, the Qur'an was originally spread orally. It was not written down until the year after Muhammad died and was not "standardized" and entered widespread distribution throughout the Rashidun Caliphate until two decades after that.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by akaciparaci on Wed 22 Jul 2009 - 0:26

so more like, uncoordinated, in every way, each to each own interpretation, or join the existing majority

the Muslim at my place is the last type

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Re: bomb...again

Post by destroyer on Sat 25 Jul 2009 - 10:14

LoC978 wrote:you forgot Europeans and Africans, man.

i did miss them, but i don't think they really hate African. the problem is African mostly associate with drugs in Indonesia, juts like muslim and terrorist in USA.
anyway, thanks for reminding me. but i think western include Europeans.

and yes there's Qur-an translation, but since the prayer has to be done in Arabian, you MUST study Arabian.

Panzer IV wrote:
Well lets see...in a manner of sarcasm...

1. The Chinese took over their business, get fat and rich while they stay in the slump grumbling and extorting
2. We invaded them. Kick their ass for awhile until we were forced to pull out.
3. The Korean...uh...invades their television and took over their TV channel with their dramas?
4. American is just because being an American

you think too much. the only correct answer is the 1st only. that's not the truth, but that what they see. "people see what they want to see". while for the rest, that's just because they're quite simmilar in appearance. no more no less.

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Re: bomb...again

Post by LoC978 on Sat 25 Jul 2009 - 11:36

destroyer wrote:
LoC978 wrote:you forgot Europeans and Africans, man.

i did miss them, but i don't think they really hate African. the problem is African mostly associate with drugs in Indonesia, juts like muslim and terrorist in USA.
I was being facetious in response to Panzer's list...

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