It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

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It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by Piero on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 3:28



http://russian-weapons.com/2008/09/sr2-veresk/

Otherwise, I might have finally found an good submachine gun for Sabina to carry in her messenger bag. I've kind of been looking for something that is both distinctive and fits the character but can also be justified logically. (I've had her down as using a Polish design reminiscent of an Uzi, but felt it was a bit of a stretch for the SWA to have such a weapon on hand.)

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by LoC978 on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 4:52

The SWA already has a logistics nightmare for parts. At least this thing just fires 9x19, so the ammo isn't an issue.

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by rshackleford on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 5:38

It looks like it shoots a proprietary round though. 9x21mm? I haven't even heard of the round Puzzled .

Have you considered either a Calico?
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg57-e.htm

or a Bizon?
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg08-e.htm

Both can be chambered with 9x19mm round, and uses a helical magazine to store more than 50 rounds in a compact package.

The Calico M950 is only 14 inches long, and the Bizon is only about 16.5 inches folded, perfect for messenger bags.

Both guns look and feel better than that stamped-steel abomination.

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 5:55

Have you considered re-chambering?

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by LoC978 on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 6:18

oooh, it's a 9x21 IMI? It only said 9mm, so I assumed...
that's a little different. 9x21 is an oddball round, but it's not hard to get per se.

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by Piero on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 7:03

Uh, no. This particular 9x21mm round was developed for a Russian handgun that was meant to be able to penetrate body armour (requirement was penetration of 30 layers of kevlar and 2.8mm of titanium at 100 meters). In addition to the handgun it was originally developed for, it was later chambered in this submachine gun. It's a different round from 9x21mm IMI (which was basically developed for countries where 9x19mm was illegal for civilian ownership).

Current options for the round include a hollowpoint loading, which might be Sabina's main round if she used this weapon, although I'm not sure how good a hollowpoint load it is. At any rate, I saw it as a potentially viable general carry weapon for her (using her messenger bag rather then the usual viola case), except of course for the difficulty of obtaining ammunition.

Also, with regards to the weapon being a 'sheet metal monstrosity'... it's unloaded weight is less then 1.7 kilos (that might be without the sight as well though), and having seen pictures of it with the grip folded down and the stock folded out, it looks like attention was paid to ergonomics.

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by LoC978 on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 7:28

hmmm... that's almost as bad a logistics nightmare as Guinevere's Chang Feng prototype... all custom machining and a Chinese military round in her case.
As for the SWA having the weapon on-hand... why do they need to? They can just requisition the thing with a liberal application of Euros.

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by Piero on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 7:36

Sabina is a bit unusual in that her handler basically told her to take some weapons from the armoury, try them out, and pick the ones she liked. So Sabina's weapons were personal choices, rather then ones that her handler simply assigned to her. (Which is in opposition to most of my other first gen OCs.) It also means though that I have to deal with the question of 'would the SWA be likely to have this on hand?'

The Veresk is an unusual weapon with unusual ammunition, but it also stand out more in comparison to something like a mini-uzi then the Polish weapon I'd had her using for a while did. But of course, logistics for the Veresk is a bitch, and there is the question of why they'd have one when they already had the P-90 and MP-7 on hand...

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by LoC978 on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 13:50

yeah... in that situation, I daresay they wouldn't have one.

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 17:08

Given any gun, one should be able to get a supply of ammo for it no matter where they are in the world. True, it maybe harder to gett in some cases than in others, but the particular gun owner should know where to get his when needed.

Case given: Fernando/Rachel's 32NAA by North American Arms. Fernando could have chosen the .25, .32 or the .38 standard rounds, but did not. In having only one manufacture for the .38 casing necked down to a .32 bullet, Fernando has 3 supplies to get it from: North American Arms, Leon (dont ask. the guy's a weapon's factory in a shack), or from the bullet manfacturer themselves; Car Bon. All 3 ship a couple of cases to Fernando a month. Since he does not use them all, he saves them for future use.

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by Piero on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 14:28

I was tempted to go with this thing in spite of some of the logic issues (why the SWA would bother acquiring one in the first place, for instance), but then I did some more reading on the ammunition.

Apparently the Russian 9x19mm and 9x21mm AP rounds are designed to shed their jackets and allow a sub calibre penetrator to continue through in the event that they impact with body armour. And since those penetrators are so tiny, I find myself doubting their effectiveness.

So at this point I'm really strongly considered switching Sabina to a basic MP-7 instead, although the MP-7 is a little long. Low recoil, lightweight, good ergonomics, and if Henrietta's P-90 can ignore the real life debate on whether the P-90 actually has good terminal ballistics, so can Sabina's MP-7.

Only real major issue is the fact that my OC mix is getting awfully heavy on the H&K... (of my six first gen fratellos and sorellas, fully two thirds of them have at least one H&K among their arsenals).

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by LoC978 on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 14:31

s'ok. canon is pretty heavy on H&K, too. well, them and SIG.

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 14:56

Yup. Triela has an MP-7.

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by MikhailN on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 19:33

@Kiskaloo wrote:Yup. Triela has an MP-7.

That's debatable because someone working with the artist messed up, so the MP7 doesn't even look like one

@Piero wrote:Only real major issue is the fact that my OC mix is getting awfully heavy on the H&K... (of my six first gen fratellos and sorellas, fully two thirds of them have at least one H&K among their arsenals).

I don't see it as an issue. A gun's a gun, no matter where it comes from. Also, I'd think that H&K guns are of a certain standard because they supply GSG9 with them and have to conform to GSG9 requirements. That can't be that bad, can it?

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 19:57

They can all sit down and play "Spin The Spent Casing" game.

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by Piero on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 20:15

It's partly a matter of variety and characterisation. I kind of like a characters choices in weaponry to reflect the character in question to some degree. For some reason, I felt a small submachine gun with a Uzi type configuration carried in a messenger bag would fit Sabina's character. And I actually kind of wanted something that was effective but not necessarily something that's generally seen as an expensive or elite gun, as again, I felt that that would fit her character. (Incidentally, among my half dozen first gen OCs, Sabina and Felisa stand out as the only two not using 5.56mm for general viola case gun type applications.)

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Re: It's too bad this thing would be a logistics nightmare...

Post by Piero on Sat 25 Jul 2009 - 0:05

And after all that, I'm thinking of going back to this thing. After all, it's supposed to have better effectiveness against soft targets then the 5.7mm round fired by the P-90. (The SP-10 round this thing fires has a subcalibre penetrator, on impact with armour it's supposed to shed the jacket and continue through the armour on it's own, while on impact with a soft target, it's supposedly supposed to stay together so that the target gets the rounds full calbre).

Thing is though, bullets in GSG don't behave quite the same way as in real life. The 5.7x28mm round in real life reportedly produces smaller wounds then even 9mm FMJ rounds, yet in GSG it's quite formidable. Which kind of begs the question of whether there's any point in using a round that's supposed to act the way this thing does...

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