Chiara's HK derived oddity...

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Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Piero on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 22:03

I was recently reading Ch.61 of the manga and made some note of the rifle Chiara uses, which I believe has been previously identified as a HK53A3. I don't think this is correct however. The weapon had a very squarish magazine as where HK53s use magazines that are curved.

So I began to suspect that the weapon was the larger G3KA4, even though it seemed a bit short for that particular H&K. And further inspection showed that the handguard has a large gap between it and the magazine, which neither the HK53A3 or G3KA4 should have.

Anyhow, I came across a picture of an airsoft G3KA4 that resembled the weapon while image searching and wondered if perhaps Yu had based the image on an inaccurate airsoft piece.

But I also ended up remembering this:
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1700/1750.htm

I don't know how much of the information there is true, or whether the MC51 is even real for that matter. Info on the weapon is contradictory and some of it even sounds like BS. But on the other hand... that pic looks like a pretty good match, don't you think?

That thing must have one hell of a muzzle blast.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by rusty-spring on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 22:10

I hear that lots of manga artists use airsoft weapons as references, mainly because civilians aren't allowed to have real firearms. Another series I read, Highschool of the Dead (an awesome zombie manga if anyone is interested), had an artists FAQ section where he mentions that he and his team purchased many airsoft replicas for the exact reason of using them as a guide when drawing weapons. Even went so far as to describe "office wars." Razz

So I think your idea that they used an inaccurate airsoft replica could be spot on.

And I've never discount any weapon as being fake, unless there's definite proof of it being so. You'd probably know just as well as anyone some of the wacked out guns people have made or prototyped over the years. Razz


Last edited by rusty-spring on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 22:12; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 22:12

The MC51 existed - it's in Jane's weapons encyclopedia. As to whether it was an all-new design from the guy who did the HK G3 or is in fact based on the G3 design seems to depend on who you read. Wiki says it's based on the G3, as does a site dealing with UK Special Forces, who note the Special Boat Service tried it out, but found the excessive recoil and reliability made it undesirable and they went with the HK53.

Since it is a special ops weapon, Chiara having one would not be out of bounds. And since she is a cyborg, she is immune to recoil.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 22:14

Piero wrote:Anyhow, I came across a picture of an airsoft G3KA4 that resembled the weapon while image searching and wondered if perhaps Yu had based the image on an inaccurate airsoft piece.
Thats why the SWA Lost The Battle! Yu Gave Them All Airsoft Guns!

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by MikhailN on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 23:09

I vote for the "lousy airsoft piece" reason, but could it be that she's using a different magazine? I think the 20-round one is straight

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Piero on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 23:22

Can you find a pic of a HK33 with a 20 round mag anywhere? Some of what I've read indicates they exist, and that there might have been a photo of 20 round HK33 mags online somewhat at one time, but as far as actually finding them...

If you're talking the 25 round mags, they're curved too.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by MikhailN on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 23:30

Piero wrote:Can you find a pic of a HK33 with a 20 round mag anywhere? Some of what I've read indicates they exist, and that there might have been a photo of 20 round HK33 mags online somewhat at one time, but as far as actually finding them...

If you're talking the 25 round mags, they're curved too.

cheers It's in a book, but here's a link

http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=Eq2Dnj4sDZIC&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=hk33+magazine+%2B20+round&source=bl&ots=saqDicIDvK&sig=8Nc6DGdtRNuzLkBS3QsvxCt1zpw&hl=en&ei=_ONjSpLOOqKK6AP4vdGdDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

You need to scroll to page 163 to see a super old G3 rifle with a straight magazine. Bottom line is that this magazine exists.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Piero on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 23:40

So question is, is that supposed to be a HK53A3, a G3KA4, or a MC51? Personally, I think it looks most like the MC51, but what an oddity that would be...

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 23:41

Well the G3 zf on Page 165 has a straight magazine.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 0:04

bang head This is cheesing me off. Why can't Yu go and draw better?

Anyway the closest I can get is this

http://www.impactguns.com/store/MGT-A052656.html

Behold the HK 51A3. Not exactly the HK33 but at least it's a Heckler and Koch. And that one's a 20-round mag

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Piero on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 1:20

The HK51 designation is one gunsmiths came up with based on HK factory nomenclature, but it isn't an official HK factory designation. The shortest factory G3 is the G3KA4.

Also, that HK51 looks an awful lot like the MC51 in the thing I linked to. Laughing But then, given the similarity in concept, maybe that shouldn't be so surprising.

As for the magazines, I think there's been some confusion. 20 round G3 mags are straight. 25, 30, and 40 round HK33 mags are curved. 20 round HK33 mags might exist, but if they are they're elusive, so it's hard to tell whether they are straight or curved (at least for me).

The thing that initially made me question the identification of Chiara's weapon was that the mag looks more like a 20 round G3 mag then one of the curved mags used by the HK33 and HK53. From there further study seems to peg the thing as a possible MC51 or similar weapon based on the gap between the mag well and handguard, which neither the HK53 or G3KA4 have.

Hope that clarifies things.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 1:34

Okies. Looks like we need to relook at the Chiara's weapon again

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by emperor on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 1:47

Thats why the SWA Lost The Battle! Yu Gave Them All Airsoft Guns!

Evil That gun look real close to HK33.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 1:53

emperor wrote:
Thats why the SWA Lost The Battle! Yu Gave Them All Airsoft Guns!

Evil That gun look real close to HK33.

One big problem we're having here is that Heckler and Koch have had their weapons copied, modified and altered until everything's possible and then some

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 5:32

MikhailN wrote:
emperor wrote:
Thats why the SWA Lost The Battle! Yu Gave Them All Airsoft Guns!

Evil That gun look real close to HK33.

One big problem we're having here is that Heckler and Koch have had their weapons copied, modified and altered until everything's possible and then some

I stand guilty as charged!

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by rusty-spring on Wed 29 Jul 2009 - 20:58

Piero wrote:That thing must have one hell of a muzzle blast.
Found this picture. As you can see, yes it has a bit of muzzle flash. Razz Probably really good at boosting your bravado though, along with ruining your ears without precautions. Not sure if that's the exact model you were talking about, but it's close.


I bet those are flame retardant gloves Razz

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by commanderagl on Wed 29 Jul 2009 - 21:49

The description noted that you would not need a flame thrower...
I can see why.
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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 29 Jul 2009 - 21:51

Instead of a camo uniform, the proper attire for firing that weapon is this:


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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by commanderagl on Wed 29 Jul 2009 - 21:56

Or a bomb squad uni
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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Piero on Wed 29 Jul 2009 - 22:36

MP5 firing signature versus HK51 firing signature...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81BKFdH0DJE

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by rusty-spring on Wed 29 Jul 2009 - 22:39

Gotta admit, that made me laugh a bit the first time he lets lose with the HK51.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 29 Jul 2009 - 22:41

The HK51 - when you want to give your opponent the courtesy of knowing you've arrived on the field of battle.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by tsundere9kagami2 on Thu 30 Jul 2009 - 1:24

that flamey picture...are you sure he just dosent have a flame kt on the front you know the tube that spray gas out in front of the barrel

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by rusty-spring on Thu 30 Jul 2009 - 2:44

Pretty sure. Just look at this video of one firing at night.


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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by tsundere9kagami2 on Thu 30 Jul 2009 - 2:54

i want one now...in home defense that would scare people off reall well

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Piero on Thu 30 Jul 2009 - 3:16

Rusty -it might be worth noting that that one is an even more extreme example of the concept. No flash suppressor and possibly even a shorter barrel then the 'standard' HK51 (much as HK51s can be considered standard when they're not HK factory builds).

BTW, any concensus on what Chiara's gun is? I'm thinking likely either a HK51 or MC51, but how the hell is one supposed to tell the difference between the two?

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by MikhailN on Thu 30 Jul 2009 - 4:25

Piero wrote:BTW, any concensus on what Chiara's gun is? I'm thinking likely either a HK51 or MC51, but how the hell is one supposed to tell the difference between the two?

I'm going for HK51 simply because the shipping cost is lower. Anyway is there a visible difference? Puzzled

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 30 Jul 2009 - 9:07

I'd be inclined to say HK51 just because of all the other HK weapons in the manga.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Piero on Thu 30 Jul 2009 - 12:06

If you can tell the difference between a 8.3 and 9.1 inch barrel from those two images, then yes. Laughing

Quoted from wikipedia (Yes, I know, not necessarily the most accurate source out there...):

"The MC51 weighs 3.1 kg (6.8 lb), has a folded overall length of 625 mm (24.6 in), a barrel length of only 230 mm (9.1 in), which produces a muzzle velocity of approx. 690 m/s (2,263.8 ft/s) and a muzzle energy of 2215 J. The MC51 was allegedly manufactured for the British SAS and SBS, who required a compact but powerful weapon, for situations in which the stopping power and armor piercing capabilities of 9x19mm Parabellum round were inadequate. Only 50 weapons were produced, and all were reportedly shipped to the UK special forces. Most of them were soon replaced by the Heckler & Koch HK53 carbine. Another UK-based company called Imperial Defence Services Ltd. absorbed FR Ordnance and continues to market the MC51 standard variant. In addition, a weapon similar to the MC51 called the M41 Offizier is produced by Schwaben Arms GmbH of Germany."

"The HK51 is not made by HK, instead being a creation of the American custom after-market. The HK 51 has no real standards but is usually a cut down and modified G3A3 or its semi-automatic clones the HK41 and HK91 and modified to take MP5 furniture and accessories. It is usually fitted with a collapsible stock; 211 mm (8.31 in) barrel; it is 589 mm (23.17 in) in length with the stock retracted and 780 mm (30.72 in) with the stock extended. Originally made by Fleming Firearms."

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 30 Jul 2009 - 12:32

Why do people keep ripping on Wikipedia?

They've done shedloads of studies, all of which have found it's no more or no less accurate than many "recognized" sources like the Encyclopedia Britannica or Encarta. The world clearly find value in Wiki as a reference source and that is reflected in the quality of the content in general.

Yes, anyone and their dog can write anything they want, but I very, very rarely come across "vandalism" and when I do, it's almost always obvious and has no bearing on the subject of the article so anyone looking at the article for reference would not be "duped" by false information.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by rusty-spring on Thu 30 Jul 2009 - 16:21

I find wiki to be just as accurate as any other internet source. I'm just as likely to believe Wikipedia about guns as I am about world.guns.ru, for the simple fact that it's all the same playing field - an internet source. To find one more reputable than another seems a little silly, especially considering the sheer amount of volume that goes through Wiki.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 30 Jul 2009 - 16:57

If I want info on a specific subject, I'm more likely to believe an authority on that specific subject, such Max from world.guns.ru.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Tommygunner70 on Thu 30 Jul 2009 - 18:13

This weapon looks like a freak accident of the MP5 and the G3 having mated.

Razz

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by MikhailN on Thu 30 Jul 2009 - 18:16

Tommygunner70 wrote:This weapon looks like a freak accident of the MP5 and the G3 having mated.

Razz

In a way, it is. They were looking for the good points of the MP5 and G3 and this is the result Puzzled

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Tommygunner70 on Thu 30 Jul 2009 - 18:20

MikhailN wrote:
Tommygunner70 wrote:This weapon looks like a freak accident of the MP5 and the G3 having mated.

Razz

In a way, it is. They were looking for the good points of the MP5 and G3 and this is the result Puzzled

I know that the MP5 was a good SMG, despite the fact that it was a Nine.
the G3 was just a bulky brother, so I am thinking that they took the original body of the MP5, crafted the larger caliber guts from the G3 into it and replaced the mag well to hold larger mags.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Awinnell on Tue 1 Sep 2009 - 15:18

quote from ARRSEpedia,


Something not reccomended to do with an HK G3K, a short version of the 7.62mm G3, is to fire it on automatic from the back seat of a car through the windscreen when the windows are shut, after about 5rds everybody's ears bleed, the driver and front passenger's hair smoulders, the empty cases bounce off the side window and go down your shirt and the concussion makes your eyes water. So I've been told.

That last paragraph is precisely on the money, but omits the telling detail that, when doing as it is suggested was done, the muzzle climbs under the impetus of fully-automatic fire and the windscreen, headlining and, if very fortunate, the roof, all get perforated. Another amusing side-effect of this sort of activity, hypothetically, is that if the vehicle should be moving at greater than, oh, 20 mph or so, both front-seat occupants acquire a lap full of granules of windscreen glass. This tends to add to the stress and confusion of the situation which led to the hypothetical release of 7.62x51 from the back seat.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 1 Sep 2009 - 15:45

I should be stunned that enough morons evidently do this that the effect has now been documented, but yet I am not...

Oh for the love of..

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Awinnell on Tue 1 Sep 2009 - 16:54

the worrying thing about it is that the only people likely to have been in a situation that needed it to happen are likely to be the SAS !

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wish i knew who put that in there, it wasn't me !!!!!!!!!!!!


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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by MikhailN on Tue 1 Sep 2009 - 20:16

Awinnell wrote:quote from ARRSEpedia,


Something not reccomended to do with an HK G3K, a short version of the 7.62mm G3, is to fire it on automatic from the back seat of a car through the windscreen when the windows are shut, after about 5rds everybody's ears bleed, the driver and front passenger's hair smoulders, the empty cases bounce off the side window and go down your shirt and the concussion makes your eyes water. So I've been told.

That last paragraph is precisely on the money, but omits the telling detail that, when doing as it is suggested was done, the muzzle climbs under the impetus of fully-automatic fire and the windscreen, headlining and, if very fortunate, the roof, all get perforated. Another amusing side-effect of this sort of activity, hypothetically, is that if the vehicle should be moving at greater than, oh, 20 mph or so, both front-seat occupants acquire a lap full of granules of windscreen glass. This tends to add to the stress and confusion of the situation which led to the hypothetical release of 7.62x51 from the back seat.

How do they know? You mean some idiot tried it? Sheesh.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by LoC978 on Tue 1 Sep 2009 - 21:24

y'know those warning signs on the side of lawnmower decks that say 'CAUTION: SPINNING BLADES' or on fast food coffee cups that say 'WARNING: CONTENTS HOT'?

...yeah. some people actually need those signs. I think if they start putting 'em on firearms, though... the murders will begin.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by MikhailN on Tue 1 Sep 2009 - 23:07

LoC978 wrote:y'know those warning signs on the side of lawnmower decks that say 'CAUTION: SPINNING BLADES' or on fast food coffee cups that say 'WARNING: CONTENTS HOT'?

...yeah. some people actually need those signs. I think if they start putting 'em on firearms, though... the murders will begin.

They already do, though not on the gun itself. There is actually a comprehensive list of dos and don'ts in the manual. Things like "Don't point at things that you don't want to shoot" and "treat every firearm as though it's loaded"

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by LoC978 on Wed 2 Sep 2009 - 5:22

...and 'keep your finger off the goddamn trigger until there's somethin' ya wanna kill in your sights!'
well, that's how it was put to me, anyway.

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Re: Chiara's HK derived oddity...

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 2 Sep 2009 - 10:13

Reminds me of the old lady who sued McDonalds for serving hot coffee. Laughing

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