If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Alfisti on Wed 27 Jun 2012 - 7:36

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:I wasn't saying that th etech is more important, I'm just saying that if they could make the cyborgs in murder machines capable of doing everything a regular soldier would require a hundred thousand different gadgets to do, then surely it would be adapted for teh military as well.

But yes, character development is a lot more important. I was just making referance to some of the other posts.
From memory one of the goals of the program is to make the cybernetic technology viable for a military role.

That said, I've never been much of a fan of cramming the girls full of gadgets... and to be honest my own instinct is to level their advantages and play up their disadvantages whenever possible. As I think I've said before: to me at least, for GSG story wise, the technology of the cyborgs is a means to and end, not an end in and of itself. The cyborg program creates a situation around which a story and characters can be built, the technology is just a sideshow.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 27 Jun 2012 - 10:08

While I personally reject it in my OC universe, in the first episode of -Il Teatrino- Henrietta did use "Steve Austin Zoom Vision" during the car chase scene.

I also have the girls being able to see the reflected light of infrared illuminators.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Professor Voodoo on Wed 27 Jun 2012 - 10:58

@Kiskaloo wrote:While I personally reject it in my OC universe, in the first episode of -Il Teatrino- Henrietta did use "Steve Austin Zoom Vision" during the car chase scene.
While the animators' execution of that scene was pretty cheezy I do believe the cyborgs have some degree of telescopic vision, capable of resolving details at great distances, seeing in low light, stabilizing the image even when the skull is being bounced around (unfair advantage for Allison when driving on a rough road) and focus on targets in their peripheral vision without moving their eyes.
I also have the girls being able to see the reflected light of infrared illuminators.
That's another capability I've allowed the girls in my stories...infrared is a part of their normal visual spectrum.

Emperor's original question dealt with what a cyborg would do if blinded in a fight. I think this is something they have to be trained for; to continue operating without panic once a main sensory input has been lost. This is probably done in the shoot-house...now you've got me concocting specific training drills...
SWA Drill #237: Blind team member.

One member of an attack team is blindfolded at a random time during the drill. The team leader is now responsible for accessing her usefulness to mission objectives, deciding to either continue utilizing her blind member or evacuate her...all while continuing toward the overall mission goal.
SWA Drill #313: Blind individual cyborg.

This time the cyborg is alone and blindfolded. She must decide whether it is possible to press on with the mission or abort, then execute her decision while hostile forces continue to attack her.
SWA Drill #491: Building on fire.

Smoke grenades are dropped into the shoot-house maze, and the cyborg team must complete their objective in limited to zero visibility.
Any other suggestions?

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Three Dog on Wed 27 Jun 2012 - 18:13

@Professor Voodoo wrote:
SWA Drill #237: Blind team member.

One member of an attack team is blindfolded at a random time during the drill. The team leader is now responsible for accessing her usefulness to mission objectives, deciding to either continue utilizing her blind member or evacuate her...all while continuing toward the overall mission goal.
SWA Drill #313: Blind individual cyborg.

This time the cyborg is alone and blindfolded. She must decide whether it is possible to press on with the mission or abort, then execute her decision while hostile forces continue to attack her.
SWA Drill #491: Building on fire.

Smoke grenades are dropped into the shoot-house maze, and the cyborg team must complete their objective in limited to zero visibility.
Any other suggestions?

SWA Drill # 523: Re-hyjacking

A fratello is put onto a [decomissioned] plane in oder to take it back from the hyjackers. For all intensive purpopsesm the plane is airbourne and the cyborg is blind folded. The handler is required to keep his/her cyborg safe, calm, and under control, while still retaking the plane and making sure all hostages survive.
Proabably not as realistic or plausable as yours (seeing as how the Fratelli don't go flying on planes that get hylacked all that often), but it's all I can come up with for now.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by John_234 on Wed 27 Jun 2012 - 19:48

The most obvious ones to me are practicing in a sensory deprivation setting, or while blinded underwater, for example. I recall in SEAL BUDS training they stick you into a pool, turn off your air regulator and rip off your goggles.

On a semi-related note, there's actually shooting drills where you wear headgear that obscures your peripheral vision, to force you to do a threat scan and sweep for targets despite stress-induced tunnel vision.

Come to think of it, I want to run some cyborgs through the stress course. A helicopter simulator is crashed into freezing cold water. You bail out, then load bullets into mags (fine motor skill), load the mags into the weapons (gross motor skill) and do a standard run and gun course.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Officer_Charon on Wed 27 Jun 2012 - 20:40

Anything that would force them to think outside of the box.

Rapid target assessment under conditions of high stress (Can I complete the mission without disclosing the Agency under current conditions - this would include an assessment of potential liabilities to be removed post-combat.)

Sensory Dep. drills ought to be standard - like John said, anything that forces you to implement the fundamentals whist retaining both fine and gross motor skills.

Pretty much anything that regular humans train for, but dialled up to 11 physically. Any deficiencies are going to come under psychological/mental training issues, so I could see these being the skills tested under combat conditions the most. While it seems as though the cyborgs have a "combat mode" (possibly initiated by adrenaline or an analogue thereof), but it would seem to make sense for them to be trained to respond to circumstances beyond their control.

Training the killer instinct into them that is the basis for many fight drills humans have to undergo is obviously not going to be an issue... what I see is a series of drills designed to teach them how to operate within their capabilities, and how to compensate if they are weakened.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by John_234 on Thu 28 Jun 2012 - 1:32

Interesting note about that helicopter drill - conducted with SBS operators, there was hardly a person who could load the bullets into the mags.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Schaschanist on Thu 28 Jun 2012 - 2:58

When I read roughly through this thread I only wanted to smash my head on the wall.
Did you guys just read what you write? You are speaking of thermic vision, night vision, zoom lenses and such bullshit, in childrens eyes? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING Me???

Our girl are still human, even if they are artificial, like I say it often 'bionic'. What you guys are saying makes them again more into a fucking walking battle robot.
Come on, don't be silly and make them to stupid androids!

Ear implants for better hearing already exist and is alot more sensitive than normal ears. But electronic eyes reached the line from here on it become just stupid. Have you ever thought about the obvious? THEY ARE STILL CHIlDREN and as such still have a childrens brain. With what you imagine they have, I dare say the brain must malfunction very quickly because of the MASSIVE overload of information, they just cannot handle it.


Come on guys, don't try to make them the ULTIMATE OVERFEATURED AND HEAVIEST ARMORED WARMACHINES ON EARTH, they are just girls after all!
Really, with what some of you imagine, Italy already had become world dominator years ago with their unbeatable child warmachine army!

EDIT: Don't come me with 'But Il Teatrino has it' or such saying. I just remember you that there in both seasons are things that NEVER appeared in the manga.
And by the way, since the Manga appeared earlier and is on a complete different, further and later point of the story, I see it as the real Original source.


Last edited by Schaschanist on Thu 28 Jun 2012 - 3:25; edited 2 times in total

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Three Dog on Thu 28 Jun 2012 - 3:04

@Schaschanist wrote:Really, with what some of you imagine, Italy already had become world dominator years ago with their unbeatable child warmachine army!

EXPENSIVE unbeatable war machine army. There was the whole 'global finacial crisis' thing, so... yeah. Nuff said.

And a good ol' airstike will eliminate the little tykes anyway, and the rest of the worlds super powers have plenty of fighters and bombers, so it's all good.

And by the way, since the Manga appeared earlier and is on a complete different, further and later point of the story, I see it as the Original source.

I agree, it's easier to junt things down in the manga too ^_^

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Alfisti on Thu 28 Jun 2012 - 5:58

@Schaschanist wrote:Ear implants for better hearing already exist and is alot more sensitive than normal ears. But electronic eyes reached the line from here on it become just stupid. Have you ever thought about the obvious? THEY ARE STILL CHIlDREN and as such still have a childrens brain. With what you imagine they have, I dare say the brain must malfunction very quickly because of the MASSIVE overload of information, they just cannot handle it.
I do remember the hearing thing coming up, I'd have to check on the eyes thing. I think it was canon, somewhere, but I'm out of town again so can't look it up.

From memory though, one of the reasons the SWA uses children is because a child's brain is more adaptable: it has to deal with a growing and changing body and learning about its world anyway, so it's easier to get it to accept the cybernetics. That includes the extra information input from enhanced vision, hearing and (if Bice is anything to go by) then in at least one case: smell. I figure one of the functions of the conditioning drug is to help the brain deal with those changed inputs and outputs... not to mention that the girls do burn out after only three or so years (for the first gens, around seven for the gen 2s).

My own approach tends to be mildly enhanced hearing, and vision which is both sharper and with a limited ability to pick up the infra-red range (though certainly not zoom vision etc)... nothing as good as an actual night vision set, but enough to help in the dark. Getting higher definition than a human eye shouldn't be too difficult. Remember, the human eye can only really pick things up down to about 180dpi; after that it all looks pretty much the same (useful to know when you're trying to get graphic file sizes down) unless you get really close. As you noted, the trick is getting the brain to deal with the extra input, which is where the conditioning drug comes in to help buffer that... and it eventually kills them.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by tremec6speed on Thu 28 Jun 2012 - 15:08

I strongly sympathize with your feelings Schas, but part of the pathos in this story
(canon or OC) is how these children are still human despite the mechanical components and constant experimentation these kids have to endure. So it is not inconceivable that there could be different eyes given to them as part of the R&D constant efforts to make more powerful version of them. (hey you never know, maybe one day they may even leap tall buildings and catch those nasty bombers so that they can't blast the 'the little tykes', right Destro?) Razz lolz
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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Three Dog on Thu 28 Jun 2012 - 18:10

@tremec6speed wrote:(hey you never know, maybe one day they may even leap tall buildings and catch those nasty bombers so that they can't blast the 'the little tykes', right Destro?) Razz lolz
Gorrammit! Do not try and turn it into a fanfic, Destro. Do not try and turn it into a fanfic! You already have enough on your plate.

Though, I figure by the time the technology reaches that stage, they won't be little tykes anymore. And besides, that's when you send in the CIDs (those big mecha things from Avatar) and the odd robot velociraptor or T-rex. Razz

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by John_234 on Fri 29 Jun 2012 - 2:15

The way I look at it, infrared vision is generally only useful if there's a light or laser projector around to pick up. You'd probably already have night vision on hand.

Zoom and such is probably useful, though, as well as an augmentation of human night vision.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Schaschanist on Fri 29 Jun 2012 - 3:01

For real, have you ever thought about HOW the fuck they should steer that shit?
Dude, don't imagine it that easy. It's not just a switch at the forehead they need to use to turn it on or off.
That would need a complete new control unit. And how should they steer it?
Ever thought what happened if they accidentally hit/use the wrong sight (like nightvision at daylight)?

Seriously, forget that idea as quick as possible, it's just what YOU want them to have as a useful gadget, but in reality it just makes everything thousand times more complicated.
Come down, guys.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Three Dog on Fri 29 Jun 2012 - 3:39

@Schaschanist wrote:Seriously, forget that idea as quick as possible, it's just what YOU want them to have as a useful gadget, but in reality it just makes everything thousand times more complicated.
In reality you say? Because children being turned into cybernetic anti terrorist opperatives was already so realistic to begin with.

Don't make me laugh. Bitterly.

In all seriousness though, you talk some sense. However, as far as turning it on and off... let me ask you, how do you make you pupil dilate? It happens automatically, doesn't it. Well, I imagine night vision would work the same as our pupils, but, I don't call it night vision, I just say that their pupils can open/close faster allowing them to adjust to light faster, and that they can open wider and close smaller, meaning that they don't need sun glasses or night vision goggles as we would as they can let in less or more light. (I figured out why cyborg eyes are teh size of fists Razz )
As far as IR is concerned though, it's just another part of the light pectrum that they can see. There is no on/off, it is always there. Just think of it as they can see beyond white light (ROY G BIV). That's the only plausable explination I can think of anyway.

Now, zoom vision... I don't know, they eyes are actually little cameras so they zoom like cameras. There, that's a good enough bullshit explanation for now.

(I'll just clarify, my cybrgs only have the pupil dilation thing, not the IR vision)

I'd like to hear how everyone else explains the super human abilities instilled into their cyborgs.

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turn it into a fanfic! You already have enough on your plate.
Haha, I forgot I already sort of have .

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by John_234 on Fri 29 Jun 2012 - 5:09

There's two types of night vision. There's "starlight" scopes which use ambient light and magnify it to illuminate the area. The other type uses infrared light to do the same job, which usually comes in the form of an infrared beacon on the night vision or the person's weapons.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Alfisti on Fri 29 Jun 2012 - 6:00

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:As far as IR is concerned though, it's just another part of the light pectrum that they can see. There is no on/off, it is always there. Just think of it as they can see beyond white light (ROY G BIV). That's the only plausable explination I can think of anyway.
Pretty much my approach to it, it's not that difficult to build a photo-receptor with a broader visible spectrum than the human eye, though again I don't think you could go too far either side of it, simply for the interface.

I can't remember who it was but someone put it a little like this: think of walking into a room, you take it all in and note where things are. Then someone says to you "did you see the purple chair?"... and suddenly you notice the purple chair. Oh, you saw it before, but it wasn't until you were actively looking for it that it registered conciously as a purple chair.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by John_234 on Fri 29 Jun 2012 - 6:05

Some flashlights actually have filter caps for IR stuff. But it's not really possible to just turn IR on or off. We don't use IR night vision during the day because it'd be insanely bright. Unless you had some mechanism to switch "filters" it just doesn't seem feasible to modify the eye for infrared vision. It's not that IR isn't around in the day - we just can't discern it amongst everything else that the sun puts out. But actually enhancing your visual spectrum would mean that it would be a lot brighter in daytime, which may as well be a disability.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Alfisti on Fri 29 Jun 2012 - 6:13

I'll be honest, this had now peaked my curiosity...

Considering how much higher resolution a good camera can give compared to the human eye I wonder if you could build in sensors for the visible spectrum as well as sensors for the IR and then have something in the hardware or wiring which allowed them to phase in and out dependent on light levels. I'm no biologist but, from memory, the human eye already does something similar with its rods and cones... one good for strong light and colour and the other better in low light but not so great at colour. Essentially you would be creating a similar system just... moreso.

Take into account the size of a camera sensor compared to the photo-receptive parts of the human eye and you could probably still get the higher definition as well.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by John_234 on Fri 29 Jun 2012 - 6:25

Well, rods and cones exist in very specific ratios, IIRC. They can't swap around on the fly.

TBH, it sounds much more practical just to design very slimline night vision goggles if you have the same technology. Someone turns on an IR spotlight, throws a flare or a flashbang. At least it's your goggles overloaded, not your eyeballs...

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Alfisti on Fri 29 Jun 2012 - 6:37

@John_234 wrote:Well, rods and cones exist in very specific ratios, IIRC. They can't swap around on the fly.
Which doesn't mean an artificial analogue couldn't be engineered to do so. You'd need to build any buffers etc it into the eye or just behind it in order to give the brain inputs it could adapt to. I've tried to do stuff where a new bit of technology had to be plugged into an existing system, the trick comes in making the output signal something the end unit can understand... in this particular case it was to make everything video before it left our new device.

I see where you're coming from though, slim-line goggles would be one route. By the same token though, one of the girl's major advantages is that they don't have things like NVGs hanging off them and look otherwise like normal kids.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Three Dog on Fri 29 Jun 2012 - 8:24

@Alfisti wrote:I see where you're coming from though, slim-line goggles would be one route. By the same token though, one of the girl's major advantages is that they don't have things like NVGs hanging off them and look otherwise like normal kids.

Padania member no. 001: *nudges Padania member no. 002* hey, look at the girl in the combat webbing with the helmet and goggels. Does she look a bit sus to you?

Padania member no. 002: *rolls eyes* You think every child in combat gear is out to get you, you're bloody paranoid.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Awinnell on Fri 29 Jun 2012 - 9:37

There is a condition called Aphakia,where people who have had their lenses removed can see in Ultraviolet,normally the lens blocks those frequencies to protect the retina from damage,in a cyborg the eyes could be completely artificial so a wider range of frequencies could be viewed,it's not really a problem to learn how to do that,Apache pilots fly with one eye looking outside in infra red whilst the other eye looks inside the cockpit in normal vision,


most cameras can see into the infrared they just filter it out to clean up the image,as for turning their eyes on and off, well they just need a HUD built into their eyes running off a small cell phone via blue tooth and use eyeball tracking to access their visual menu


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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 29 Jun 2012 - 9:53

There are a number of lifeforms on this planet that can see in a wider spectrum of color than humans, including into the infrared and ultraviolet ranges of the electromagnetic spectrum. I therefore see no real reason why the cyborgs would not have an expanded color range, though I believe it would not infringe too far either side beyond current human vision in order to integrate with the human brain.

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Re: If cyborg get hit in their both eyes and BLIND!!

Post by John_234 on Fri 29 Jun 2012 - 14:37

Well, again none of us are really specialists so we don't know how this enhanced spectrum affects visibility in normal conditions

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