Another Russian AP subgun...

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Another Russian AP subgun...

Post by Piero on Sat 25 Jul 2009 - 16:23

This is another of the Russian submachine guns that 9mm ammunition equipped with a subcalibre armour penetrator. Unlike the ammunition of the Veresk (the oher Russian SMG I talked about in another thread), the 9mm round used by this subgun is a 9x19mm round, which supposedly should makes it capable of using standard 9x19mm ammunition without modification. It should be noted however that the specialty AP ammunition for this thing is very different from standard 9mm ammunition, as it propels a lightweight 65gr bullet at about 600 meters per second. This seems liable to produce significant point of impact shifts when swapping between this round and something like a 124 gr hollowpoint (360 meters per second) in the heat of combat. The SR-2 Veresk has the advantage that it's AP and hollowpoint ammunition are much more similar in velocity (the SR-2's SP-10 AP round uses a slower but heavier bullet then this cartridge).

There's also the question of whether it makes sense to use this particular model as opposed to another smg with the same ammunition. While a lot of 9x19mm pistols not specifically made for this cartridge would be risky to fire with it due to not being designed to fire such hot ammunition, it seems 9mm subguns often fire hotter ammunition then their pistol counterparts anyway, so they might be able to handle it.

Still, I do kind of like the weapon. I initially thought it was sort of hideous (yes, that does factors into things a bit) but it doesn't really look so bad in the photo up above. With something like a Aimpoint T-1 micro red dot mounted on it's sight rail, it could make a very lightweight, compact SMG for Sabina to sling around in her messenger bag (this thing reportedly weights only about 1.4 kilos, though that may be unloaded and without an add on sight).

It also has a pistol counterpart, the GSH-18, which has a much more reasonable grip size then the SR-2 Veresk's pistol counterpart. However, I'll probably go with something like a CZ 2075 RAMI for Sabina, since she dresses quite casually and while the GSH-18 isn't huge, it's still a full size handgun, not a compact (besides which, I don't want to open the can of worms that introducing this sort of ammo for handguns would cause... too many of my OCs use pistols that aren't really built for that sort of hotload).

Considerations, considerations... Laughing

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Re: Another Russian AP subgun...

Post by LoC978 on Sat 25 Jul 2009 - 22:39

certainly better than the previous option... and
@Piero wrote:It should be noted however that the specialty AP ammunition for this thing is very different from standard 9mm ammunition, as it propels a lightweight 65gr bullet at about 600 meters per second. This seems liable to produce significant point of impact shifts when swapping between this round and something like a 124 gr hollowpoint (360 meters per second) in the heat of combat.
at the likely engagement distances for a Submachine Gun, I wouldn't worry about it. Chin shot becomes adam's apple shot. no big deal.

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Re: Another Russian AP subgun...

Post by Piero on Sun 26 Jul 2009 - 2:10

I suspect it makes little difference at across the room distances, but what about when engaging targets down the street or something like that? (The manufacturer actually lists a maximum effective range of 200 meters, although I suspect that's on semi, and I don't really plan on Sabina using this gun much at that sort of range!)

I suppose the best solution might be to pick one specific type of ammunition for 'extended range' work and stick with it? (Although it would be nice if either round would do for 'down the street' engagements.)

There's also another Russian AP 9x19mm round, typically associated with a different Russian AP handgun design (the one that one the Grach trials) that's somewhat slower and heavier. Although it still seems like it's different enough to lead to significant variation (82gr at 460 m/s compared to about 435 for a 115gr +P+ hollowpoint).

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Re: Another Russian AP subgun...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 26 Jul 2009 - 5:22

Why would a GSG be engaging a target scores of meters away with an SMG?

It's not their style. They either look you in the eye when they kill you, or they snipe you from the roofs and you never know what's coming.

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Re: Another Russian AP subgun...

Post by MikhailN on Sun 26 Jul 2009 - 5:33

LOL the Ivans try to rival a Western weapon yet again. This time it's an MP5 or MP7, right down to the closed bolt and length. About the range the 9mm round usually handles ranges of up to 150m so 200m is quite good for this SMG

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Re: Another Russian AP subgun...

Post by Piero on Sun 26 Jul 2009 - 13:20

Kisk -because the author who writes her is the sort who likes to be prepared for all sorts of possibilities, and this filters into his characters? Laughing

Seriously though, this is the primary that Sabina has on her most often, the equivalent of the other girl's viola case smgs and rifles. I think it would be a good thing for it to be able to handle more then just across the room distances.

Mikhail -interesting. I'd heard various stuff on the effective range of 9mm SMGs... so about 150 meters huh?

Maybe that 200 meter figure it with that really high velocity stuff this thing is designed to be paired with, although then again, lightweight bullets ought to shed velocity a lot more quickly then heavy bullets, so you'd think it would even out over time.

Maybe the manufacturer is just being optomistic, especially since I think it said 'up to 200' on their site.

As for the origins... Sabina's not the type to care too much about what country a gun comes from as long as she likes it. I kind of think this one is a good choice for her because it's small, easy to carry, and nasty. Smile Diana and the others can have the fancy german stuff.

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Re: Another Russian AP subgun...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 26 Jul 2009 - 13:35

@Piero wrote:Kisk -because the author who writes her is the sort who likes to be prepared for all sorts of possibilities, and this filters into his characters? Laughing

Ok, but you'd like to think he was briefed on how Special Operations, Section Two operates. *shrug*

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Re: Another Russian AP subgun...

Post by Piero on Sun 26 Jul 2009 - 16:33

Somehow, I think a lot of the handlers would have a psychological thing against only teaching their charges to handle 'across the room' type distances, even if that's the sort of distance a lot of their charges engagements would be taking place at. Can you imagine Jose being satisfied with Etta only knowing how to use her P-90 at that sort of range?

Plus we've seen GSG's get involved in stuff like VIP protection work and things like that as well. (Although Sabina's suitability for VIP protection work is admitedly kind of iffy to begin with, given her personality issues.)

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Re: Another Russian AP subgun...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 26 Jul 2009 - 17:35

And yet "across the room" is why the girls were created. The last thing Section 2 needs is film of little girls running around the streets of Rome firing off SMGs and assault rifles.

Little girls are "harmless", which is why they can get close enough to ensure they always kill. It's why they mostly use pistols in the field and PDWs and shotguns when they need to "clear a room".

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Re: Another Russian AP subgun...

Post by Piero on Sun 26 Jul 2009 - 18:36

I still think there's a psychological factor at play here. A lot of these handlers are trained military and police personnel (in some cases, such as Marco, quite highly trained), and I think in many of their minds only training their charges to shoot properly at extremely close range would reek of slopiness. Besides which, just because something is rarely useful doesn't mean it never is. The situations the girls get into are unpredictable, so it pays to train them to be able to adapt, IMO.

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Re: Another Russian AP subgun...

Post by LoC978 on Sun 26 Jul 2009 - 19:06

it's not like they wouldn't have targets at the range for the girls to practice 100m shots from their SMGs, it's really not any form of specialized training. On the other hand, clearing a room is specialized training.

Suffice to say, she would be trained and proficient with the weapon. Whatever its maximum point target range is, the girl would be able to hit consistently at that range. More importantly, she'd be trained to reflexively engage at close range.

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Re: Another Russian AP subgun...

Post by Piero on Sun 26 Jul 2009 - 19:59

Good point, the close range stuff actually is the more advanced part. Laughing Although in general I would say it supports my viewpoint that Sabina should now how to utilise the capabilities of her weapon.

Maybe she should just practice a lot so she can get used to the different point of impact shifts between her AP and hollowpoint loads...

Actually, this has also got me thinking about how Sabina chose a Tavor carbine as one of her weapons initially (again, her handler basically told her 'try a few and pick the ones you like,' but how it's probably become the great neglected piece of her arsenal since then. Simply because it's a jack of all trades and master of none. Sure, the bullpup configuration has nice ergonomics for range shooting, but I think it would seem akward compared to this smg in CQB combat (especially due to the issues shooting around corners), and it's never going to match the capabilities of her AR-10T for sharpshooting assignments. It's main advantage is really just that it can hit harder and reach farther then a smg, but how often is this thing going to prove unsatisfactory in those departments? Almost make me wonder if she should switch to something else for the rare ocassions when there's a need for her to have a proper assault rifle... (Sabina likes to pack light and discrete -a compact smg in a messenger bag is her usual choice for carrying around on a daily basis).

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