Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

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Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 21:54

The opening scene in Episode Nine of the anime is one of the show's most visually stunning. It is a scenario in which Elsa infiltrates a hotel and, in the span of less than thirty seconds, forcibly gains access to a room and eliminates all five of her intended targets before escaping. Many cite this sequence as a clear indicator of Elsa's sterling skill in combat.

At first glance, those say so would be right. Elsa got into the premises unnoticed. The fight scene that followed was chock-full of action-sequence goodness - our anti-heroine demonstrated blinding speed, dazzling pyrotechnics and smooth martial-arts moves. She completed her mission and exfiltrated without a hitch. So why, then, does it all go wrong?

Here's the problem. While, on the surface, Elsa appeared to have done her job with stunning efficiency, she, in truth, committed some extraordinary blunders. Some were subtle and others not so, but all had the potential to jeopardize the mission, compromise her completely, or both. They are as follows:





  1. Elsa left her hat, coat and violin case in the elevator, where anyone could have discovered them, Worse still, what if the elevator had moved off with the items?
  2. Elsa expended an enormous amount of ammunition in killing the single guard at the door. The two-second burst she fired would have used up twenty-three rounds of her carbine's thirty-round magazine.
  3. Elsa left the guard's corpse in plain view, where any passer-by could have noticed it while she was in the room.
  4. Elsa made an incredible ruckus when booting down the door, which could have alerted the whole floor to what was going on.
  5. Elsa allowed one of the guards in the room to squeeze off three shots. While none of these could have done her any physical harm, they could have attracted unwanted attention.
  6. Elsa did not use a silencer when dispatching the last guard - this, too, could have raised hell with anyone else on that floor.
  7. When taking the photographic evidence that Lauro requested, Elsa had her back turned to the open door - anyone could have walked by and discovered her.

In light of these points, Elsa's performance is revealed to be little more than a collection of scenes that were very flashy and stylish and memorable, but most unsound from a tactical point of view. That the mission itself was successful can actually only be considered a fluke, considering she was extremely lucky that none of these errors ended up costing her. One has to seriously reconsider Elsa's level of skill when mulling over these mistakes, and ponder just how good a teacher Lauro must have been.


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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by sasahara17 on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 22:05

Hmm... never thought of it that way. It would seem like de Sica is just improvising her way throng the missions. Would be costly eventually.
(7) is especially worrying since there has been one instace of a certain bellboy walking in on an operation and being silenced by the on site operative. And that operation was much more sound...
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 22:34

If you want to know what eventually became of that bellboy, read this story.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 23:51

sorry, man... still not convinced.
'kay, here goes:
Nachtsider wrote:-Elsa left her hat, coat and violin case in the elevator, where anyone could have discovered them, Worse still, what if the elevator had moved off with the items?
while this wasn't the greatest idea from a tactical point of view, it wasn't the worst of ideas either. she was doffing the coat in order to free her arms up for quick movement, the hat so it couldn't fly off with her running, and the viola (a SIG 551 is a bit bigger than a violin, even in pieces) case would've been a horrible encumberance... and if you'll notice, when she reported to Lauro afterward, she had retrieved all of the items listed.
Nachtsider wrote:-Elsa expended an enormous amount of ammunition in killing the single guard at the door. The two-second burst she fired would have used up twenty-three rounds of her carbine's thirty-round magazine.
-Elsa left the guard's corpse in plain view, where any passer-by could have noticed it while she was in the room.
-Elsa made an incredible ruckus when booting down the door, which could have alerted the whole floor to what was going on.
in the original version, a near literal translation of what Lauro told her to do was: "Use your rifle, make a mess." (that's how the Triad fansub put it, anyway). I got the feeling that it was planned as a horrible ruckus, and a bloody mess... by Lauro. He was trying to intimidate the police chief that they would later assassinate. I realize that this was a horrendously risky operation, and could've delivered Elsa into the hands of the enemy or the authorities. The reason for this risky operation is simple: Lauro was a fucking idiot.
**edit**... with regards to the number of rounds expended (my OCD has been triggered... I counted as closely as I could)... she expended her entire magazine: 15-17 into the first guard (closer to 1.5 seconds than 2), 5 (exactly) into the door, and 8-12 into the two men in the center of the room, totaling between 28 and 34. I assume it was 30, unless the animators forgot to count 'em. This means she either wasn't expecting the two extra guards inside, or planned to take them out by hand/pistol. I'd like to think that Lauro sent her in without knowing for certain how many were in there. Sounds like an oversight he might make...
Nachtsider wrote:-Elsa did not use a silencer when dispatching the last guard - this, too, could have raised hell with anyone else on that floor.
I don't recall the 551 being silenced either... *checks* ...nope, it wasn't. The little flared piece on the end of the barrel is a flash suppressor (standard US Army equipment on AR15-M16-M4 rifles too)... See above explaination about the 'mess'.
Nachtsider wrote:-Elsa allowed one of the guards in the room to squeeze off three shots. While none of these could have done her any physical harm, they could have attracted unwanted attention.
-When taking the photographic evidence that Lauro requested, Elsa had her back turned to the open door - anyone could have walked by and discovered her.
both of these were true blunders. The man who squeezed off three shots should've either hit nothing but empty air she had just vacated, or been dropped by quick action before he could fire. turning her back on an open doorway should have been drilled into her head as a good way to get herself killed... but again, Lauro's a douche, and she was most likely never told that.

Nachtsider wrote:In light of these points, Elsa's performance is revealed to be little more than a collection of scenes that were very flashy and stylish and memorable, but most unsound from a tactical point of view. That the mission itself was successful can actually only be considered a fluke, considering she was extremely lucky that none of these errors ended up costing her. One has to seriously reconsider Elsa's level of skill when mulling over these mistakes, and ponder just how good a teacher Lauro must have been.
I agree. however, I don't think any but one of the blunders was actually hers.


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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 0:10

Granted, But if the police was using that room for one of their 'guests,' the whole floor would have been empty, except for a room or two for survailence. In killing the first guard, the others would have ran out. Since nobody did, the floor had to be empty.

Elevator control keys are not that hard to get. For emergency and government services, they are easy to get. Elsa could have locked the elevator in place with such a key.

The rest I have no comment on. She just went in and busted up the place like gang busters... The fact that she is a Gunslinger Girl is what saved her from being dead in the first place.

But the lack of apathy on everyone else, is a concern. If a society is so constantly being whacked by terrorist attacks and murder for hire, that society learns how to be apathetic about it. They hear gun fire, they pretend not to hear it. they see a murder, they dont get involved and when questioned- they know nothing.

Elsa's enactment of her mission was sloppy at best. Her skill level though, she did waste a lot bullets, but as in most missions I have noticed involving them, it has to look like 'the terrorists did it', which means being as sloppy and bullet wasteful as possible. If it were a more professional strike, every bullet would have been accounted for and recorded (literally!). She did with what she could, with the orders that are given to her. 1 mission does not set the tone of her abilities. I just wished Yu Aida would have done more in her regaurd. Hell if it were left to 'Fernando and Rachel', a couple of grenades would have been lobbed into the stairway and a bit of the gas can shuffle would have been danced so the place could have been left burning.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 0:23

one other thing... about shooting through the door lock:
http://televizzle.org/2006/09/14/mega_movie_myths.php
someone who watched the same episode of MythBusters I did wrote:Shootin' Locks. Many movies have someone trying to shoot locks off of doors. One such movie is Big Trouble in Little China, but there are many. Grant builds a door that can hold a number of locks, and the rest of the crew heads to the firing range.

The first test is to see what happens when you shoot handguns at locks - first the padlocks and then the deadbolts. The result is that nothing at all happens. The padlocks are barely even dented, and they still operate. The difference in shooting at deadbolts is almost non-existent. If you want to blast off a lock, don't use a handgun because it just won't work. Busted.

The second test is to see what happens when you shoot a 12 gauge shotgun at the locks. At first it looks like the padlock is still working, but after yanking it once, it falls apart. The deadbolt lock falls completely out of the hole. In either case, there is a huge amount of shrapnel created by the destruction, so it's probably not a good suggestion for getting past the lock. Confirmed.

The final test is to see what happens when you shoot a high-powered M1 Garand rifle at the locks. The padlock is simply destroyed and the bullet goes completely through the door jamb. The deadbolt lock also is completely wiped out by the M1. Like the shotgun, there's a load of shrapnel by using this method, so it's certainly not safe, but it does work. Confirmed.
that shrapnel is why you're supposed to shoot the hinges at an angle away from yourself and your teammates with a 12-gauge (trust me, I went through the 8-hour block of instruction on breaching a room in a hostage situation).
Elsa would've gotten some hot shrapnel in the face, and I'm not certain 5.56mm rounds would've done a complete job (and it's Lauro's fault for failing to train her properly!). she would have been better served by putting her cybernetically-enhanced foot to the door latch, without the 5 rounds first.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by sasahara17 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 1:16

Nachtsider wrote:If you want to know what eventually became of that bellboy, read this story.
Oh? Childville? One of the stories which got me intrested in the fanon in the first place. Odd thing, when I first read 'Battlezone' years back, I did not make the connection between a certain bellboy and the Isrelli assassin named Meir.
My reaction was... what? Why's Rico spazzing anyway? He's just another cyborg. Took me ten days to figure out. Then I was "...oh, yeah.". My reaction to my own obliviousness? "Lame, Sasahara, Lame. Go read more GSG."
Still waiting on Sheo Darren's 'Life Goes On.'

Ahh... these discussions are what a casual reader like me love to read. As only a eannabe gun fanatic (noboy, and I do mean nobody, I know in person knows the diffrence between a clip and a box magazine. It's sad..) I rarely ever pick these details up.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 6:27

I'm glad you liked 'Battlezone', Sasahara. Plenty of research went into that story in order for it to be as accurate to real events as possible, and many readers consider it to be my magnum opus.

When reactions to 'Battlezone' began pouring in, I could barely believe that readers failed to pick up that Emilio and Meir were one and the same. All the clues were there in the text. It was amazing, really. People even complained about my pairing 'a new character' with Rico, while in fact he was actually the same boy whom Rico fell for in Episode Three of the original series - they had so much in common, and I felt it was a terrible shame that their budding relationship had to go to waste. Also, Rico was clearly feeling horrible for what she did to Emilio in spite of herself - I wanted to extrapolate on this, too, and relieve the poor girl (one of my favorite characters) of her repressed guilt. Cripes a-mighty, I had one heck of a time writing to all the reviewers who didn't get it and explaining the whole shebang to them. Audiences can be immensely annoying at times.

Sheo's a good friend and a very talented writer - he's the only person whom I trust enough to use my characters and story ideas in his tales. 'Life Goes On' is the single greatest Gunslinger Girl fanfic of them all.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by sasahara17 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 7:41

I worship Seo Darren, second only to Person WMA. Everything
that comes from this is sheer brilliance. Midnight Carnival (from the fic, not
the OST) never fails to send me laughing.






The Italy in the GSG world is in a pretty bad way if I
recall. How many people on the security forces were in it for revenge again?
60%? Still, I would imagine the expats in the hotel to freak out, even if the
hotel staff was “Ho hum, another assassination in this hotel. Wonder who’s skinning
who this time?”

Yeah I remember that myth busters episode. The 9mm was just pitiful against the
padlock. Anyone remember how they attempted the 'Underworld pistol spin =
instant hole?' Damn, That was stupid. Plugging away with mag after mag then
bringing in a shotgun when the 5.56 just don't cut it.

On another note, is Elsa de Sica 'Yandere'? It's been bugging me for awhile.
She exhibited main symptoms including the all important eventual 'excessive
violence' that character type is known for, so is she Yandere?
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 8:04

'Otaku' terminology gives me a headache. I prefer to think of Elsa as being a bitter, frigid misanthrope who nevertheless found herself obsessed with Lauro - she was possibly in search of a loving guardian subsequent to a traumatic experience that occured prior to being taken in by the Agency - and ended up snapping after getting her heart broken by her unfeeling supervisor.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by sasahara17 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 8:24

I see. Well, Yandere is a new concept I just found about myself. I'm traying to find examples of it since I can't sand my cousins talk about it without me properly knowing why. Just me being irked.
I know Yuki Nagato is one, that chick from Mirai Nikki is one, but is Elsa one? That was my thought process.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 9:41

Yandere... I don't like it... from what I just read, when an anime girl 'falls into that category', there's no helping it. she simply is going to start killing, no matter what those around her do, because she's just that fucked-up.
I don't think Elsa would be that... none of the characters in GSG are that fucking one-dimensional. Elsa was reacting to being completely neglected by the only person in the entire world she felt anything positive for. If he hadn't neglected her, she probably would've wound up... still obsessed... still distant from the other girls... but probably not completely cold, and she definitely (I think) wouldn't have murdered her handler (unless he went and got a girlfriend or something...)

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by sasahara17 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 10:11

... Wikipedia has everything doesn't it?
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 10:14

It doesn't.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 10:32

LoC978 wrote:If he hadn't neglected her, she probably would've wound up... still obsessed... still distant from the other girls... but probably not completely cold, and she definitely (I think) wouldn't have murdered her handler (unless he went and got a girlfriend or something...)
If that were the case, Elsa (would be) = (to) Henrietta (in that regard...)

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Wileama on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 21:34

LoC978 wrote:that shrapnel is why you're supposed to shoot the hinges at an angle away from yourself and your teammates with a 12-gauge (trust me, I went through the 8-hour block of instruction on breaching a room in a hostage situation).
I was under the impression that special breaching rounds, consisting of bags of sand, where meant to counter this.

Anyway I'm mostly here to say ditto, that Lauro told her to make a mess. So she made a mess. Though yes one, also has to assume that a lack of proper training does play its roll. Besides the door mistake is one that's frequently made in the series. Animators aren't combat specialists. I doubt they hug out with some soldiers, or swat like team before animating the series. They went with what felt right, which is one reason you see so many mistakes. It's art, live with it.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 21:37

I was looking for commentary from an in-universe persepective when I posted my analysis. But oh, well...
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Wileama on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 21:41

Ah right, sorry I forgot how you dislike that it's a show argument. Still I think you have to take it into consideration every now, and then.

I think Elsa had a lot of raw potential. It's just Lauro never properly trained her. That's my in-universe explanation for her various mistakes.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 21:46

It's not that I dislike the fishbowl perspective, Wileama - I just tire of people playing that card too often. But it's alright, really - feel free to venture outside every now and then.

The tack our discussion has taken leads us to another interesting issue - exactly what qualifications did Lauro possess, and what led the Agency to employ him? You'd think that Lorenzo and his crew would carefully screen staff candidates to weed out incompetent individuals.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 22:03

In agreeing with Wileama, but with this in mind-all the girls have raw potential. It what they were given when they were rebuilt from the carcusses they were when they arrive at Section 2's medical lab.

I doubt that Lorenzo and staff would be that sloppy in selecting individuals for handlers, especially when they were hand selected. I think that Lauro may have been great at what he does, but burned out too quickly and then started the shit piling on Elsa. For a while she had the best he could offer in teachings and experience, and then went into a downard spiral that she dealt with herself.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 22:12

Wileama wrote:special breaching rounds
Laughing they're called slugs.
Wileama wrote:consisting of bags of sand
that would just make things worse. High-speed sand particles are dangerous (not to mention the blinding dust-cloud they make)... that's why noone goes outside without a whole lot of protection during sandstorms in Iraq.
Wileama wrote:Besides the door mistake is one that's frequently made in the series. Animators aren't combat specialists. I doubt they hug out with some soldiers, or swat like team before animating the series. They went with what felt right, which is one reason you see so many mistakes. It's art, live with it.
...I just find that sort of thing annoying, what with the crazily painstaking effort put into similar details in the series... that sort of oversight stands out much more because they're so rare in GSG...
Nachtsider wrote:The tack our discussion has taken leads us to another interesting issue - exactly what qualifications did Lauro possess, and what led the Agency to employ him? You'd think that Lorenzo and his crew would carefully screen staff candidates to weed out incompetent individuals.
One can only assume that he was a more than competent counterterrorist operative before he came to the agency. In terms of credentials, Lorenzo's two worst choices that I've seen were 1-Alessandro, and 2-Hillshire. Alessandro is a latecomer (...the agency's approach to operations is changing... not for the better, in my opinion), and has noncombat strengths which (supposedly) make him viable... and Hillshire's credentials aren't weak, they're just not on-par with Marco, Raballo, or the Croce brothers. So Lauro had to have known the business of killing well enough for him to be chosen. Perhaps he simply had no strength of character, and he got complacent when they gave him a cyborg to do his work for him. Perhaps he got pumped too full of technical data on what goes into the cyborgs, and then he refused to believe what was right before his eyes (she's still a person).
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 11:33

LoC978 wrote: they're called slugs.
<blockquote>Wileama wrote:consisting of bags of sand
</blockquote>
that would just make things worse. High-speed sand particles are
dangerous (not to mention the blinding dust-cloud they make)... that's
why noone goes outside without a whole lot of protection during
sandstorms in Iraq.

I remember reading about a special mixture of metal dust that has a good punch to it at close range, centered enough to make a cleaner hole then say a ram, and disperses quickly enough that it is only a problem from very close range.

Elsa was working alone so she would need either to carry two weapons (one with the breaching slugs), or a rail mounted shot-gun underneath a compatible weapon.

Then there is the fact that they are cyborgs. They aren't particularly susceptable to splinters.

All things accounted for, considering that a cyborg can easily kick a door down, blowing out the hinges seems like something that gives the people inside way too much warning, is loud, wastes ammunition, and there is no point getting wounded by splinterrs even if it wouldn't bother a cyborg much.


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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 11:42

I would dare suspect that there are little to no nerves to the artifical skin area, but heavy nerve clusters on places where they should be (finger tips, lips, selective groin areas...).

I can imagine that when Elsa kicked in the door (giving a panty shot view to all in the room from her short skirt), that is a splinter from said door went up her dress and onto a very specific area of her panty croutch, she would have been a very uncomfortable girl who would not be able to finish her mission...
(I'm not talking about accidental penetration here- but a certain external part near that area that has a lot of nerve endings!)
:lol!:


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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 11:43

3klicks wrote:I remember reading about a special mixture of metal dust that has a good punch to it at close range, centered enough to make a cleaner hole then say a ram, and disperses quickly enough that it is only a problem from very close range.
sounds almost like flechette rounds...

...there's also the method of shooting away the wood around the hinges with buckshot (if you don't have any slugs). This, however, is slower, increases your chances of being hit with ricochet, and obviously doesn't work on metal doors.
3klicks wrote:Then there is the fact that they are cyborgs. They aren't particularly susceptable to splinters
metal shrapnel, on the other hand, could cause serious cosmetic damage.
3klicks wrote:All things accounted for, considering that a cyborg can easily kick a door down, blowing out the hinges seems like something that gives the people inside way too much warning, is loud, wastes ammunition, and there is no point getting wounded by splinterrs even if it wouldn't bother a cyborg much.
thank you. that's what I was tryin to say: if you can knock the door off its hinges with a kick, there's no reason to shoot it.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 12:02

Repost. I'm too slow.

Found the breaching roud reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaching_round

LoC978 wrote:One can only assume that he was a more than competent counterterrorist operative before he came to the agency. In terms of credentials, Lorenzo's two worst choices that I've seen were 1-Alessandro, and 2-Hillshire. Alessandro is a latecomer (...the agency's approach to operations is changing... not for the better, in my opinion), and has noncombat strengths which (supposedly) make him viable... and Hillshire's credentials aren't weak, they're just not on-par with Marco, Raballo, or the Croce brothers. So Lauro had to have known the business of killing well enough for him to be chosen. Perhaps he simply had no strength of character, and he got complacent when they gave him a cyborg to do his work for him. Perhaps he got pumped too full of technical data on what goes into the cyborgs, and then he refused to believe what was right before his eyes (she's still a person).
It takes many things to become a good handler: a good combination of psyhic resistance/fortitude, good skills/knowledge, and "handling" skills that prevent problems from arisin (a passion for the job is helpful too).

In pure efficiency Jean is proubably your man (has all those traits). Jose isn't bad, but he deals with Henrietta in a way that satisfys his own emotional needs, and thus causes problems and I see him as more fragile then Jean. Marco and Raballo have good experience, but were both wounded, so they are far less useful in the field. Maro also lacked the proffessional approach, he had trouble controlling his feelings and it took him a long time to get back on top of the game and fix his problems with Angelica. Hillshire has the least combat experience, but does well in the other categorys (he seems to have toughtened up after the whole child smuggling incident). (He is also the only decent handler, but I won't take this into account in the efficeincy calculations because all you need is not to have your cyborg go nuts) Lauro didn't really demonstrate anything. It can be assumed he had some combat abilities, but had no handling ability, I wouldn't label him as a particullarly psyhologically resistant guy, and he had absolutely no interest in his work. Alessandro I also didn't like. He seems like a fifth wheel to a wagon. (I'm not sure wheather this metaphor is used in English). One of his first questions was wheather Petrushka would listen to kim or the agency. His behaviour may be just part of his work attitude, but it made me wonder wheather he isn't an agent aligned with something other than the SWA. Internal conflict would be an interesting plot device and we would see cyborg-on-cyborg action.

In short my ratings (5/5) are:
Jean: 5
Jose: 4.5
Marco, Raballo, Hillshire: 4
Lauro: 1 (from what was demonstrated, I doubt I would give him more than a 4 even if I saw him do something more then drink and sit in the car)

Alessandro: 2 (Jean's information gathering methods are crude, but effective enough for the field. The SWA isn't exactly a pair of tweezers, leave that to section 1, the SWA is meant to selectively destroy the governments problems.)

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 12:15

If we follow the Ernesto/Pia Rougue Handler/Cyborg story line, what ever future created cyborgs after that point must follow orders from both the agency and their handlers. Claes seems to be fitted this way since she follows agency and handler's orders (as in Anime Episode 12: Symbiosis and in Vol. 4 to both Jean and Jose and later to Alessandro and others in Vol. 7). It makes them more independant in some ways, and tied down in others. Petrushka was created long after Pia.

Alessandro was with another government agency but he switched to the SWA for political reasons (citing Wikipedia).

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Wileama on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 13:17

3klicks wrote:Repost. I'm too slow.
Ditto. If you doubt wikipedia there is always a third party, that seems to be related to the DoD, but not on a .gov site...

3klicks wrote:The rest of 3klicks post
I disagree with two of your rankings Jose, Hilshire, and Raballo.
Jose spoils his girl a little bit to much. The relationship does work, but does seem to be a little tax on both. This may be an issue of personalities, regardless though it still effects their efficency. As for training Jose seems more lax. Repeatedly Henrietta is show to be one of the poorer shots of section 2. Jose does not seem to have taken the steps necessary to correct this. So I would give him more like an 7.5 out of 10.

Hilshire has a good relationship with his girl. Though perhaps harder too defined then others, it causes almost no issues. Hilshire may not be the best at teaching weapons. However he does pass down other important skills sets. Looking picking, investigative skills, and foreign language being the most obvious. Hilshire is also able to cover his weakness in combat training by arranging for third party training, some times to great effectiveness. His largest weakness seems to be his own poor performance in the field. So Hilshire earns a 8.5 out of 10.

Raballo develops another excellent working relationship with his girl. Clear rolls, respect, and admiration means this relationship has no real affect on combat effectiveness. Also Raballo seems to be an excellent teacher in all fields. Only his lam leg keeps him from a perfect score, 8.5 out of 10.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 13:20

Wileama wrote:[Hillshire's] largest weakness seems to be his own poor performance in the field.

One could actually argue he did well in that raid he and Triela mounted on the Padania safe house in Episode One. But the most glaring thing arguing against Hillshire being a skilled operative is his apparent ignorance of one of counter-terrorism's fundamental concepts - when going up against an enemy who are equal-opportunity employers, shoot the women first.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Wileama on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 13:34

I think he did a shit job of taking a prisoner. You don't get close. You tell them to toss the weapon where they can't reach it. You then put them in an uncomfortable position, where motion is apparent. Then you take the weapon, while training yours on them. Then, and only if you really can't find an of your allies you add restraints.

Though yes shooting women first is good. As is shooting the only white guy in a group of black guys, and so on.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 13:46

Wileama wrote:
3klicks wrote:Repost. I'm too slow.
Ditto. If you doubt wikipedia there is always a third party, that seems to be related to the DoD, but not on a .gov site...
wow... maybe the SF use those. MPs (who are the folks that taught me door breaching) probably just get the shaft in terms of equipment... or maybe my training was decades out-of-date due to being in Germany (I know my equipment was)


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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Wileama on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 13:52

well here's another thought, how good are these rounds at putting holes in people? If you've got a shot gun, I would want real rounds in them. That when I have to clear the building I just opened, I could use the shotgun. Are you always going to have access to specialized rounds in a war zone? Better to know how to do it the right with normal rounds, then rely on rounds to do all the work. Besides I bet you can still injure teammates standing to close, so it's better to practice proper methods regardless.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 14:02

http://www.cqbsupply.com/doorbreaching.html[/mention] wrote:The US DoD Door Breaching Round is lethal and extremely destructive. DO NOT fire directly at person(s), serious injury or death may result. Intended for use ONLY by qualified personnel properly trained in the specific use of door breaching techniques. This ammunition can cause contusions, abrasions, broken ribs, concussions, loss of eyes, superficial organ damage, serious skin lacerations, massive skull fractures, rupture of heart or kidney, fragmentation of the liver, hemorrhages, and death.
-ammunition for sadists...
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 14:05

Wileama wrote:[Hillshire's] largest weakness seems to be his own poor performance in the field.
Nachtsider wrote:One could actually argue he did well in that raid he and Triela mounted on the Padania safe house in Episode One.
I would like to be able to see that... I wonder if Triela did all the work, though?
Nachtsider wrote:But the most glaring thing arguing against Hillshire being a skilled operative is his apparent ignorance of one of counter-terrorism's fundamental concepts - when going up against an enemy who are equal-opportunity employers, shoot the women first.
Wileama wrote:I think he did a shit job of taking a prisoner. You don't get close. You tell them to toss the weapon where they can't reach it. You then put them in an uncomfortable position, where motion is apparent. Then you take the weapon, while training yours on them. Then, and only if you really can't find an of your allies you add restraints.
...
I wrote:...I don't think Jean would've fallen for what Hillshire did. He probably would've told Franca to drop the pistol, then kicked her in the back of the knee, stomped her into the ground, and called in Rico to frisk her for weapons, tie her hands, and beat her on general principle.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 14:16

LoC978 wrote:I would like to be able to see that... I wonder if Triela did all the work, though?

He did have his pistol in hand, at any rate.

No-one gets the drop on Jean - not even when they have him at gunpoint. Remember what happened in Episode Seven?
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 16:37

Episode 7? And here I am thinking that it was bottle cap incident at the "Death of Elsa di Sica/High Fever" episode.

But yes, a good operative needs to aware of his surroundings at all times.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 16:55

ElfenMagix wrote:Episode 7? And here I am thinking that it was bottle cap incident at the "Death of Elsa di Sica/High Fever" episode.

But yes, a good operative needs to aware of his surroundings at all times.
yup, Episode 7 (Protezione) and/or Chapter 9 (How Beautiful My Florence Is!):
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 16:58

I figured that when I cranked up the video on the laptop.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 17:00

About the breaching rounds. They are more effective and safer then normal rounds, but they only make sense in pre planned operations (SF and Police raids). The assumption in LoC's training was proubably that he could find himself in that type of situation, but wouldn't know before hand. That's the reason for the improvised techniques (or the US gov is just trying ot save money).
LoC978 wrote:...there's also the method of shooting away the wood around the hinges with buckshot (if you don't have any slugs).

Wileama wrote:I disagree with two of your rankings Jose, Hilshire, and Raballo.
The main reasons for my ranking are that LoC was speaking from a strict efficiency point of view so I followed suit. Personally I don't like Jose at all. He satisfys his own emotional needs by giving Henrietta tons of gifts (it makes him feel better), which naturally inspires Henrietta to like him more and more and to desire a closer relationship. But, when it comes to that Jose rarely touches her and keeps a real (although not apperent) distance. That aside, he is former Karabinier, he did well in all his assignments, and his relationship with Henrietta is good enough that the only problem was her going on a rampage once (and that was just unnecesary risk, it didn't botch the mission). The lack in Henrietta's training I didn't think about it's true that he neglects it and he is also too lenient for Henrietta's good. This may brings him down to 4 or 4.25.

Hillshire I've always called the only capable handler, but I meant it in the handling part of the job and from the point of view concentrating on the well being of the cyborg not efficiency. Although he is my favorite handler (Jean being second... for complicated reasons) he can't score above Jean, and not more then .5 above any of the other more combat capable handlers.

My 5 point scale is a big approximation, so would not oppose Hillshire moving up .25 and Jose down .25 however I don't agree about Raballo. He was also a good guy, and had the basics down real well, but, walking with a cane, the sad truth is that he would not see any front line duty. So I just can't see just the quality of his training, which is traditionally good but not phenomenal, making up for his own deficiencys. Again I'm going against my sentiments because I want to try to offer an objective evaluation of efficienty.

Jean: 5/5
Hillshire: 4.25/5 (kept back; for bad field work)
Jose: 4.25/5 (down; neglected training)
Marco, Raballo: 4/5 (good training just isn't enough for someone who can't really as much as do a combat search of a house)
The others are below this.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 17:13

3klicks, the problem with Hillshire I have noticed is that he is involved with "Bring'em Back Alive" missions. Which means, as much as Triela would love too, she cant go off on killing rampages on every mission she is on. Now, he is on these "Bring'em Back Alive" missions because of his former job at EuroPol meant that he had to capture and intergate the bad guys, thus making him the most experienced in "Bring'em Back Alive" missions.

That means, he has to pull back on Triela's wanting to waste everyone away, and add a level of maturity and priorities on her that the other girls seems to have little of.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 17:25

3klicks wrote:Marco, Raballo: 4/5 (good training just isn't enough for someone who can't really as much as do a combat search of a house)
I don't see Marco and Raballo as being the same at all:
Raballo suffered an injury which affected his mobility, so he can't trust his body on the front line. however, his marksmanship should be unaffected.
Marco suffered damage to his eyesight. He can clear a building, rough up street punks, do all of the things that a member of NOCS is supposed to do, minus sniping and making called shots. The only reason Marco is a less effective handler than Jean is his apathy, which only developed after Angelica started forgetting what he taught her.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 17:32

I think the fact that his job cost him Patricia probably didn't help, either.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 17:51

Its not his job cost him Patricia. Patricia being a journalist, was always want to be a nosey bitch, using her position to try to pry information from him about his job. Honesty maybe the best policy in any relationship, but when you know your significant other works for the government and he can not disclose any information about his job, he should be left alone! That is what Patricia failed to respect with Marco. She should consider herself lucky that Marco let her go when that Padania terrorist/journalist friend held her hostage at that vacant building when they were seeking information about the SWA.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 18:05

I'm talking initially, Elfen. When Angie's problems first became apparent, Marco began spending more and more time at the Agency, started drinking heavily, and became short-tempered. Patricia often smelled gunpowder on him, too, and this alarmed her because he had been claiming to be working with children. When he could not provide her with an explanation, a split took place. Therefore, I feel that Marco's subsequent apathy towards Angie was also influenced by the fact that he blamed her and his job for causing his fiancee to leave.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 18:16

Ah, The stress that comes with certain jobs...
Can one sit down and say that it was really worth it in the end?

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by rusty-spring on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 19:14

I suppose you'd have to decide between A) Future wife and a possible family for B) A doomed child assassin.

Hmm...maybe that doesn't sound like such a great trade off after all... Razz
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 21:05

rusty-spring wrote:I suppose you'd have to decide between A) Future wife and a possible family for B) A doomed child assassin.

Hmm...maybe that doesn't sound like such a great trade off after all... Razz
I'm not sure what he wants. His job is getting him depressed, made him a drunkard, and got him split up with his fiancey (to Elfen; its true that it was mostly her fault, but it's also true that if he wanted that relationship more than anything else he would have quit). What does he see in it?
LoC978 wrote:
klicks wrote:Marco, Raballo: 4/5 (good training just isn't enough for someone who can't really as much as do a combat search of a house)
I don't see Marco and Raballo as being the same at all:
Raballo
suffered an injury which affected his mobility, so he can't trust his
body on the front line. however, his marksmanship should be unaffected.
Marco suffered damage to his eyesight. He can clear a building, rough up street punks,
do all of the things that a member of NOCS is supposed to do, minus
sniping and making called shots. The only reason Marco is a less
effective handler than Jean is his apathy, which only developed after Angelica started forgetting what he taught her.

Yeah, I'm just a lazy bum and put the comment next to the both of them. Razz I meant Raballo. As for where Marco stands, I confess I really haven't put much thought into that. (Good call on the house search scene. I should re-read the manga study ; it does stand in his favour and it totally slipped my mind.)

It's hard to compare the handlers without definite specifications as to what to grade. I was trying to base my ratings on the sheer long-term killing power of handler + cyborg. (Assuming that section 1 is supposed to take care of the intel.)

In that respect I figured that Marco's psyhological/cyborg relationship problem and eye injury, evened out with Raballos leg injury.

Hilshire is up there mostly for his ability to keep Triela in top condition both training wise and on the psyhological side (but that's ok, since it makes his fratello effective). I may have given Jose too much credit, though.

Somehow I doubt Marco's got much on Jean.
LoC978 wrote:do all of the things that a member of NOCS is supposed to do
Didn't he leave NOKS because of his eye injury?

Jean's fighting skills are top notch (as seen in one of your posts above), and Rico (although somewhat inflexible) is chisled into a fine killing mashine, more effective then Angelica.

LoC978 wrote:The only reason Marco is a less effective handler than Jean is his apathy, which only developed after Angelica started forgetting what he taught her.
Well that works into psyhologial fortitude. (I used to use that kind of argument a lot. But if I went, say to the military, and told a sarge that I would be great if he would just stop being so mean I'd seriously get my ass kicked. 👅 ) I doubt Jean would be fazed by any of that at all.

I wouldn't bet much on any of my ratings, but I maintain that Jean is at the top, Alessandro and Lauro at the bottom. (using the cryteria I mentioned above)

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Wileama on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 23:41

I graded them on three things. First how do the manage the relationship with their cyborg. Not whether their kind, or any of that. How their relationship effects work. Henrietta goes ballistic protecting Jose some times, not good. Rico will do just about anything to please Jean, yet clearly wont snap and kill Jean. 3 points out of 10.

Second how effective are they at training their cyborgs. Do they train them to the full potential of their talents. Again Henrietta is a bad shot compared to Rico. 5 out of 10.

Third, how well do they preform out in the field as a partner. 2 out of 10 points.

That was my grading rubric. A handlers most important roll is to train his cyborg to do her job. Second he has to make sure her moral is good, and she's ready mentally for her job. Finally he has to act as a face, and partner in the field.

ElfenMagix wrote:Its not his job cost him Patricia. Patricia being a journalist, was always want to be a nosey bitch, using her position to try to pry information from him about his job. Honesty maybe the best policy in any relationship, but when you know your significant other works for the government and he can not disclose any information about his job, he should be left alone! That is what Patricia failed to respect with Marco. She should consider herself lucky that Marco let her go when that Padania terrorist/journalist friend held her hostage at that vacant building when they were seeking information about the SWA.
I beg to differ. Yes Patricia was a part of the reason why the relationship failed. She hardly the one to blame though. Keeping a secret from your significant other has consequences. It puts tension on the relationship, that you have to deal with, or the relationship is going to suffer. Patricia is limited in what she could do to ease that tension. Mostly it's to be understanding, and patient. That's a lot to ask if you don't give anything in return. Marco has to give her something, just talking to her about the 'situation.' The way Patricia talks in volume 5, it doesn't seem she was getting any of that. Marco comes home, has a drink, acts generally apathetic, and dejected. I would only put up with that in a partner for so long.

Marco seems to have this world view of himself as a military man. That's who he is, it's what he does. I think Marco doesn't think he can be happy in any other kind of job. There's a little be of chivalry, and fear there too. He wants to support his wife. Marco might not think he can do that in any other field. So he wants to get back in the NOCs, and to do that he'll do what he has to. That's what he things at first at least. Soon it becomes clear that he's paying a price he doesn't want to. By then though it's to late to change things, or at least to hard.

3klicks wrote:
LoC978 wrote:do all of the things that a member of NOCS is supposed to do
Didn't he leave NOKS because of his eye injury?

Jean's fighting skills are top notch (as seen in one of your posts above), and Rico (although somewhat inflexible) is chisled into a fine killing mashine, more effective then Angelica.
In the first chapter of volume five, Leo tells Marco thanks to his eye injury he would probably hit Patricia if he shoots. Most of what we see Marco doing doesn't require absolute accuracy. He only has to hit center mass. Also he might have already begun to early treatments return his full eyesight.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 2:50

3klicks wrote:Somehow I doubt Marco's got much on Jean.
never did... though I'd say the old Marco, when he first trained Angelica, was just about on-par with Jean (though in a different way... kinda like combining Jean with Giuseppe). 'Cause when she started out, Angelica was a total badass (as depicted in the anime, anyway. no early action shots of her in the manga besides breaking up the knife fight. a pity.)

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 11:59

Wileama wrote:She hardly the one to blame though.
In a way they both made their decisions. In the begginig Patricia tried very hard to convince Marco not to go back to any military job at all; she argued that her sallary would be enough, but Marco wanted to join. Then Marco told Patricia that he can't tell her what he does and doesn't want to talk about it, but Patricia wanted to know, that was her choice. In the end it seems their expectiations were incompatible.

LoC978 wrote:as depicted in the anime, anyway.
Sometimes I wonder wheather I hadn't got pumped full of the drug myself. Are we talking about the "Claes as bait" action (she botched that one) or is there something more I don't remember?

Nachtsider wrote:No-one gets the drop on Jean - not even when they have him at gunpoint. Remember what happened in Episode Seven?
Just noticed he did have a distraction. It still takes quite a bit of skill, though. (*loves Rico's expression in first panel*)



Here's an interesting thought: the cyborgs seems to share some of their handlers character traits.

Rico: Has an outward self, but also an inner world of pain that no one gets to see. And during missions shes identical to Jean.

Triela: She may seem different form Hillshire, but in the Mimi spisode she says that she's happy because she's finally helping others and she takes care of the other cyborgs. That caring is what got Hilshire out on the mission that saved her.

Claes: Raballo's "wisdom". She doesn't get thrown around by emotions and contemplates things in a calm manner. Also his love of books, and gardening.

Henrietta: She's screwed up just like Jose. Emotional, and with the same obsession over Jose that Jose has for his sister.

Angelica:... I don't have an idea for her yet. There's proubably something.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 12:11

3klicks wrote:Sometimes I wonder wheather I hadn't got pumped full of the drug myself. Are we talking about the "Claes as bait" action (she botched that one) or is there something more I don't remember?
nah, it was about 19 minutes into episode 8, where Marco was watching a video taken by a helicopter...
reminds me of a one-shot I never finished from Marco's perspective, where he pretty much spends the day reminiscing:
I wrote:Shaving: a morning ritual of 'respectable' men nearly worldwide. The kind of men who manipulate nations and ruin lives for financial gain. The kind of men who train formerly disabled little girls to kill people... and occasionally those people are criminals or terrorists. Like I said: respectable.
As I watch myself perform said ritual this morning, my mind is far away... well, perhaps not that far. My gaze shifts to a framed picture to my left... a little girl in a pink dress, her raven hair held away from her pixie-like face by a ribbon that matched her dress. The picture was taken from above, in the dark hours of the morning... by a scout helicopter. I remember being amazed that she could even see the chopper, much less the lens of its nose-mounted targeting/surveillance system. Yet there she was, smiling for the camera after completing her first independent operation. Six kills in half as many seconds. She was incredible, my little Angelica.
Son of a...
I watch blood dribble slowly out of the fresh cut, which leads to yet another of my morning rituals: applying tissue to where I've nicked myself. It's not advisable to let your mind wander when you're wielding a blade at your own throat, even if it is just a safety razor.
that picture refers to the final scene that was used in this to the words "Just die, eh?"
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

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