Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Thu 20 Dec 2007 - 23:31

Yeah, the old 'pop and no kick'. Actually I don't know a pop and no kick from a snap crackle pop! Who knows, maybe that kid wuz was so nervous at the thought of doing Lauro that her customary careful treatment of her gun was neglected. After all, all bets where off after he referred to her as useless. She acted like her world had collapsed.
If just witnessing affection from Jose to Herietta made her unreliable, then she must have been a mental mess as she prepared for destroying her reason for living. I can imagine her hands shaking, sweating
(if that's possible for them) trying to keep it together to do what just a few days earlier would have seemed incomprehensible.
Although I admit in the video she looked cool as a mechanical cucumber.
But who really knows?
Remember Henrietta's trip to the doctor where she expressed concern for not having killed a lot of people in one month as opposed to the other?
How many agents looked on without blinking an eye while this poor child was worried about not pleasing her handler by not murdering enough of the opposition?
Naw, I think most of the Agency's members thought it through and
came to the conclusion that using kids by taking away their identity, wiping away any memories they may have held dear and using them to kill indiscriminately accepted among them.
In light of knowing that, who except Raballo can be called innocent? He called a spade a spade and didn't try to justify making these kids murderers by saying well, at least they are alive now! Wooopee!
They all knew the score when they joined a covert mission that employed using kids as killers. Even Jose admitted to an agent of Section One that he knew he was using Henrietta.
They thought it through considered what was being done and thought oh well too bad, soooo sad!

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 0:01

Rador wrote:Yeah, the old 'pop and no kick'. Actually I don't know a pop and no kick from a snap crackle pop!
[FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR MODE]It's when a round has a defect that causes it not to work properly. Generally, instead of firing, the primer in the round goes off without causing the powder in the casing to explode. This makes a small 'pop' sound, and since the round didn't fire, there was no weapon recoil, otherwise known as 'kick'.
Rador wrote:Who knows, maybe that kid wuz was so nervous at the thought of doing Lauro that her customary careful treatment of her gun was neglected.
... so the weapon would have a bunch of carbon buildup from firing at the range that she didn't clean out of it. The weapon would still fire a chambered round, but would (possibly) jam when trying to chamber the next round.[/FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR MODE]
... that would have actually made a really good explaination for Sasahara's AU fic... the forgetful double-tap thing always struck me as a bit 'plot-device-y'.
Rador wrote:Remember Henrietta's trip to the doctor where she expressed concern for not having killed a lot of people in one month as opposed to the other?
How many agents looked on without blinking an eye while this poor child was worried about not pleasing her handler by not murdering enough of the opposition?
Naw, I think most of the Agency's members thought it through and
came to the conclusion that using kids by taking away their identity, wiping away any memories they may have held dear and using them to kill indiscriminately accepted among them.
No offense meant, but I don't think you're terribly familiar with the mindset of special ops/assasassin types. They can't afford the luxury of seeing the girls as children. They don't have to see them as mere weapons, either, though. They're treated more like young, naive, extremely talented comrades-in-arms. Basically akin to young adults who still need some supervision at work.
Rador wrote:In light of knowing that, who except Raballo can be called innocent? He called a spade a spade and didn't try to justify making these kids murderers by saying well, at least they are alive now! Wooopee!
even Raballo was far from innocent. He knew the score when signing up, but wasn't emotionally prepared to deal with what he had to do. After awhile, he felt he had to repent... and then Jean just did his job, as always.
Rador wrote:Even Jose admitted to an agent of Section One that he knew he was using Henrietta.
he was, as you put it, 'calling a spade a spade'. Giuseppe has few illusions, at least cerebrally. Emotionally is another matter.


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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 0:54

Welcome to the forum Rador. You've awakened me from my dreamy slumber across the sea; and I've travelled through the time zones to offer a reply. (Please note the reply is to your posts only and no personal offence is intended at any point.)

- Lauro/Elsa = "great fratello": I think that falls under the "don't badmouth the dead" category (as Wileama mentioned), also this would be thanks to Elsa and not Lauro. (this was also mentioned I think.)
- Whatever trouble Lauro was in I seriously doubt he lost his familly like Jean and Jose. I would side with the new car theory.
- WHat do you mean he was misguided? He has common sense like everyone else. In the world you make a bad judgement you pay for it. Being a bad person is not just doing bad things because you want to, if you can't tell what is good and what is bad, then (if you had an upbringing that was not extremely unnatural and are part of society) that makes you a bad person. If the character trait that makes you enjoy what is bad/evil makes you bad, then so does the trait of not being able to tell right from wrong. Lauro screwed up moraly. He's not a child; the responsibility is his.
- I won't repeat everything I've said about Jean and Lauro, but sumarising greatly, if you look at the big picture, there is no comparison between them. (and that's not in Lauro's favour)
* You said yourself that you need balance in this job. If there is anyne who has balance it is Jean. Lauro is not balanced he's tipped straight down the not caring side.
* I think way to much is taken on face value. Take Henrietta/Jose, for example. Many people cite Jose as a perfect example of a handler, but that's just foolish. If spending time with a kid and buying him stuff was enough to be a good parent there would be a lot more good parents out there. First of all Jose is selfish. He is satisfying his need to replace his dead sister. He is using Henrietta not onlyu professionally, but also personally. Second, while he takes this comfort from her, he makes her desire real contact with him. So he tempts her with face-value kindness and gifts, but refuses her any real display of affection. Only recently has he been able to do this and only after Dr. Bianhci scolded him.
If you have two parents, one gives his child lots of toys and allows her to do what she wants, and the other is stearn with his and teaches her, which is better? Jose neglected Henriettas training (increasing the chance that she will be killed in battle) and practically didn't respond when she put a jammed gun up to her face.
As, for Lauro (if missions are any indicator) he spends no time whatsoever training Elsa and if he did he had her do it herself.
* If you want to compare further you have to start looking at the subjective side. Rico is in a good mental state. Hell, she's happy most of the time. Both girls received the same dose of conditioning, but Jean is a lot wiser then Lauro. He provides the contact with a parental figure that any child needs, instructs her as best he can, and cares for her (in the physical sense, and maybe otherwise) even if it is as a tool.
You might say that Rico is "supposed" to feel worse, because she's "treated worse", but first of all she is not and second of all it doesn't make sense to tell people if they should be happy or not, or that they are being treated well or poorely, that's really only for them to feel and decide.
* In general, what I'm trying to say is, that Henrietta getting gifts and Rico being smacked are treated as the main or even only elements of the situation. In reality, I think, they are not only one of many factors, but are also not the most significant. As for Lauro, I think he is a rich character to explor as far as fan-fiction is concerned, but it will be very hard for anyone to convince me that he's not a complete bastard.
[If you want my full take on Jean you'll have to read other posts (mainly "When Jean Hit Rico" and others (can't remember))]


[edit] p.s. Illustrated fanfics are an interesting idea, haven't seen any before, can you post a link?

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Danjo3 on Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 4:23

To Argenrador44xx:

I wish I could have gotten to you before you reopened this can of worms. We've gone round and round on these subjects many times in the past and take it from a man who's been there - No one is going to change their minds.

Here's my ultra-quick summation:

1. The Agency is wrong for what they do to children.
2. Jean is wrong for physically abusing Rico.
3. Jose's definitely not the most efficient handler, but he's the best big brother.
3. Lauro is a bastard.

If you want a further explanation, then do as 3klicks said and go back to one of the old threads. We're all just repeating ourselves here.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 5:11

3klicks wrote:p.s. Illustrated fanfics are an interesting idea, haven't seen any before, can you post a link?

I've actually done quite a few illustrations for my fanfics - you can find them at my art page. If - and I stress the word 'if' - my fanfics were ever made canon at any point in time, I would only permit them to be published in prose format, accompanied by illustrations.

@Danjo3 wrote:2. Jean is wrong for physically abusing Rico.

I'd like to tweak this a little - "Jean is heavy-handed with disciplining Rico, and is wrong for doing so. However, he is not the kind of guy who abuses someone for the hell of it."

@Danjo3 wrote:3. Jose's definitely not the most efficient handler, but he's the best big brother.

I have the feeling that we should consider Bernado as one of the most efficient handlers - that outgoing, jovial man doesn't appear to be undergoing any of the problems that the others face, and Beatrice seems to do her job quite well.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Danjo3 on Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 6:37

@Nachtsider wrote:I have the feeling that we should consider Bernado as one of the most efficient handlers - that outgoing, jovial man doesn't appear to be undergoing any of the problems that the others face, and Beatrice seems to do her job quite well.
It's too bad we don't know more about him (and the way things are going, we probably never will). It would be pretty cool to find out that out of everyone, he's managed to find the perfect balance between handler and brother.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 6:40

Maybe having a protegee with all the personality of a stump helps loads.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 20:07

Hi everybody! Hey, first just wanna say thanks for all the cool, interesting replies I've gotten for my views of the anti-hero, Lauro!
I think he's one the coolest characters out there, I know most don't share my way of seeing him, but that's cool!
I'm impressed by how everybody is very sure of their points of view, including yours truly! I disagree with the bulk of them, they seemed flawed as the replies fail in my humble opinion to make more sense than what I originally posted, but then again who says we have to change anyone's mind here? We're expressing out views and it's really fun to read who thinks what and why. Also the stories are really fun to read and the art flat out ROCKS! Sure I like some more than others, but they all have their own appeal.
I can't help but feel that there such a great collection of knowledgeable and talented people here that it's just a matter of time before someone published their own original work, and may it be an awesome success!

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by LoC978 on Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 20:51

*looks sheepish* hi. thanks for joinin' us here, Argenrador. you certainly do have some interesting views on everybody's ol' p...*coughpunchingbagcough* ...pal Lauro. I agree with you that the Croce brothers calling the Elsa/Lauro fratello 'great' doesn't jive well with him being a complete douchebag (respect for the dead aside)... but my mind justifies that as them knowing him mostly from his training methods and service record... and I put responsibility for his good service record on Elsa's shoulders. ... ... [/debate mode] (damn thing sneaks up on me sometimes)...
Aaaanyway... enjoy the art/scans(which I'm getting back to soon, life is currently having its way with me)/stories/debates/random humor.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 21:06

Hi Danjo3, I agree with 3 out of your statements! I prefer: 4) Lauro is a cool dude that takes it easy, while poor Elsa frets and orbits around him like a satellite. He made Elsa one heck of a fighter, a fact that did not go unnoticed by both Jean and Jose which made them worry how someone could stop a team as good as they were. Jean called it like it is, no sugar coating because Lauro and the kid had died. He wasn't worried about badmouthing the dead, he wanted to figure out how anyone could take out as good a team as them!
He spoke things the way he saw them and understood Lauro invested a lot of time on his attack machine and made a point of saying that too. Jean's analytical powers Lauro are Kick-ass, so I won't argue with you Jean! lol Some agents did not see the cyborgs as young adults or comrade in arms but as a tool to be put on a leash and wipe their minds when they miss behaved (Jean again) I think Lauro thought his decision thru, but after probably after chatting with Jean the killer mercenary, special ops, etc. After all an informed decision is best! heh heh. Fun comparing
Jean with Lauro who tells Rico to kill any witnesses and did just that (an innocent boy)and knows she could do so with a bible if need be Meanwhile, Lauro just saw Elsa as a tool just like Jean saw Rico. Hmm I'm starting to like Jean, he's no Lauro, but he's aight!

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 22:01

Elsa? One heck of a fighter? Dude, all the evidence I've presented at the very start of this topic indicates otherwise.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 22:10

Yesterday at work, I was thinking about what would have happened if Raballo had succeeded in spilling the beans to the world about the Agency!
(instead of actually working) ;-) Do you think a complete version of this rough idea is worth posting peoples?
My Inquiring mind wants ta know!
Picture this: Raballo goes to young computer nerds instead of the radio station who then make several web sites with pics and info on the Agency's where abouts, etc. Italy is in an uproar! The Army rounds up every body and in court the crowd
(more like a lynching mob) wants heads to roll!
During the course of the proceedings Jose takes the stand.
"Do you deny having taught the child that was in your care how to kill in conjunction with other operatives which drugged her in other
to insure her compliance?"
"Y-yes" he said nervously.
The crowd roared their reply; "Death to Jose!!"
Fearing for his life, he uttered "I uh, bought her a camera once!"
"Ah-a camera, what, for surveillance?" The confused prosecutor asked.
"No, as a gift."
People chatted among themselves. "Order, Order in the court"!
The judge demanded! Then someone stood up and yelled, "Aw, he's not so bad!"
All at once everyone exploded in a frenzy of adoration! ;-)
"All right", the judge stated, "ya good to go"!
Jean was next. "Is it true that you regularly hit the child entrusted to you, furthermore, referring to her as a tool to be discarded after she was used up"?
The indignant employee of the state remarked.
Picking up from his brother's cue, he ingeniously answered,
"Actually, I planned on getting her a Minolta for her birthday!"
"Set him free!" the adoring crowed cheered! "Hooray!" Again the hammer struck to quiet the delighted throngs, some asking for his autograph!
Hillshire's turn:
The lawyer started: "Is it true that you...."
"I bought her a teddy bear!" he interrupted, "Lot's of them!"
In unison the people rang out! "Yay!" "He's cool, leave the poor guy alone already!"
Then, it was HIS turn............. Lauro was called to give an account for his actions! Off to the side a group of fanfic authors and artists were jeering at him, shouting: "We hope they string ya Lauro!"
Some even snuck weapons into the court house.
Poor Lauro caught a blast of SuperSoaker TM right in the face!
The police were quick to detain those delinquents, however.
"Do you deny calling your charge 'useless"?
Calmly, he replied, "No". "But, why...." the incredulous lawyer asked, "Because she sucks. Tried to kill me, the little Sh$t, but I kicked her ass something fierce.
I guarantee she won't try that again."
"OFF WITH HIS HEAD"! the multitudes went ballistic!
After recovering from a state of shock the prosecutor asked,
"Have you no mercy"? "Are you to say that between the killing sprees there were no gifts, or toys to be had?"
"Not even a charm bracelet at least, for crying out loud!?"
"Nope." he spoke with slow deliberate words.
The prosecutor now in tears, asked "How could you do such a thing to that poor itty bitty widdle girl?"
"Well, Lauro responded, they are more machine than human being, but if it's true that they're human more or less, then I figure if you teach kids to kill then give'um toys, that my friend is pure bullsh$t!
"Dead Man Walking"! The now hysterical mob screamed!
"You sir, are not a 'nice' man, you have just sealed you fate."
"Just a little pity would have swung the fickle public opinion on your behalf."
"Too bad, Sooo sad"
Ok, now that I think about it," Lauro recalled,
I did say 'thanks' to Elsa for fetching me a sandwich..................once."
(awkward silence as the public became confused and bewildered, asking one another if that was nice enough to let him go)
With a sly smile Lauro continued: "Yeah, I remember now, I said 'thanks' and patted her on the butt!"
"HOOOOOORRRAAAYYY" The people yelled from the top of their lungs, and with that Lauro was off the proverbial hook.
Wadda think? is there enough material for a fully fleshed out illustrated fanfic?
I actually am working on one tale where frustrated fanfic artists/authors attempt to storm Lauro's house while he's having a little party, with Elsa dressed as a servant girl attending to the guests. :shock:


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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 22:17

You don't think she's an excellent fighter? Take it up with Jean dude! lol :deadhorse:

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Mon 24 Dec 2007 - 6:38

LOL. If ya' have the motivation then go for it. [It reminds me of The Tale of Two Cities (I know it's weird).]

I don't want to jump back, and I know it's unlikely for anyone to change their oppinion, but I don't think Jose is the best big brother. He's the BIG brother, the one who has the experience and intelligence (and responsibility) to think in the big picture. Simply giving gifts and on-the-surface kindness really doesn't cut it. He should have been smarter in his approach (if he had Henrietta would be happy and so far she's either miserable and contemplating killing herself, or unsettled/unsatisfied).

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 24 Dec 2007 - 8:00

3klicks wrote:He should have been smarter in his approach (if he had Henrietta would be happy and so far she's either miserable and contemplating killing herself, or unsettled/unsatisfied).
What!? Where the hell do you see that? Henrietta is a very happy camper. She even acknowledges it. In vol. 4, she tells Dr. Bianchi that she knows shes being treated better then any of the other girls. I think her biggest problem is that shes spoiled. And I think youre dead wrong when you say Joses affection is just superficial. He genuinely cares for her - and she knows it. Miserable and suicidal? Im sorry, but I just dont see that.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Mon 24 Dec 2007 - 9:00

Perhaps miserable is too strong a word, but a happy camper might be too much as well. Henrietta knows that she should be happy, but she isn't (that's why she mentiones it). No matter how "objectively great" your situation is, if you're unhappy then you're unhappy. Henrietta might not be in the immadiate danger of commiting suicide, but she has definitely considered the posibility, and even gone as far as to "voice"(show) her thoughts (if the gun was loaded who knows what would have happened).

Jose is not an evil or bad person, but he is far from being an angel. As his "sister" says in bol. 7, he is replacing her with Henrietta (a rather selfish motive, of filling avoid in his life). As far as the lack of genuinness, maybe the best way to say it is that he doesn't go all the way and doesn't allow her to get trully close. He buys her gifts (which isn't exactly very hard) and takes time to care for her, but if you look in vol. 6 (I think) Dr. Bianchi reprimends him for keeping aloft in the same way (he has never touched her besides when it was really necessary. That's why his pinching her cheek was important. Remeber when Rico walked on the concrete road blocks and Jean pulled her off? Henrietta instantly got on, hoping that Jose would pull her off as well.).

On the level of gifts and attention he's overdoing it, which makes her naturally want a closer relationship (and he's not realy willing to go there). If he treated her kindly, but did not overdo it she wouldn't be so spoiled and attention hungry, which would actually turn out to be good for her (wouldn't go berserk so easily, wouldn't need him so much, wouldn't get so upset when he missed a promise, etc.).

From the purely "Big Brother" (good parent, brother, uncle, guardian, etc.) point of view Hillshire and Raballo seem best.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 24 Dec 2007 - 10:02

3klicks wrote:As his "sister" says in bol. 7, he is replacing her with Henrietta (a rather selfish motive, of filling avoid in his life)
That was a dream Jean had, not the real Enrika.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Mon 24 Dec 2007 - 10:17

@Danjo3 wrote:
3klicks wrote:As his "sister" says in bol. 7, he is replacing her with Henrietta (a rather selfish motive, of filling avoid in his life)
That was a dream Jean had, not the real Enrika.
That's why I put "sister" in quotes. She may not be the real thing, but she's expressing the truth.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 24 Dec 2007 - 22:41

Interesting points.

Henrietta is spoiled and wants more.

But- in Episode 10 (Fabbre Alta), Jose admits that he only give Henrietta the minimum in to her that he could give her, even though Henrietta says in when she tried that suicide stunt of hers, "How can I, who you treat so well, kill myself?"

Its like Pietro Fermi stated, "If you dont love me, I will shoot..."

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Wileama on Tue 25 Dec 2007 - 14:07

Henrietta is friggin' nutz. Is it Jose fault she's a little off her rocker. A bit. Some people are just always crazy though. I think Jose is nice to Henrietta, because he feels obliged to treat her well, it's not entirely genuine on his part. Anyway those are just my thoughts.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Tue 25 Dec 2007 - 15:01

@ElfenMagix wrote:But- in Episode 10 (Fabbre Alta), Jose admits that he only give
Henrietta the minimum in to her that he could give her, even though
Henrietta says in when she tried that suicide stunt of hers, "How can
I, who you treat so well, kill myself?"
Sorry, got lost here.

My take on it is that there are many ways in which you can be caring. Jose is way too much in the almost ostentatious category of showing affection, but too little in others such as, er, closeness (hard to describe -> see Bianchi) and thought. Hillshire is far better at the rest. He certainly isn't overbearing with his affection, but is always steadily there to help Triela and spends a lot of time thinking about her.

Jose seems to ignore these other parts. He ignires his and Henrietta's training at one point, and shows incredible carelessness when Henrietta puts a jammed pistol up to her eye. (A clever little piece of foreshadowing.)

Buying gifts is easy, keeping yourself together emotionally so that you can continue to care for your cyborg and make the best decisions is not. Jose and Marco don't deal with this part too well.

Heh, I think I'm repeating myself now. I'm just not sure what you were trying to say, and have the natural impulse to clarify and expand on everything.

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 26 Dec 2007 - 3:25

Henrietta is a loose cannon.

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opinion

Post by Angiegarde on Sun 20 Jan 2008 - 18:37

In my opinion, whatever mistakes Elsa made during her mission early in episode 9 were likely due to either the way that Lauro planned out the mission or were designed to make the scene as bloody as possible in order to freak out the police director who the SWA was trying to intimidate into not supporting the Republican Faction.

As for mistakes such as the elevator and people being on the floor, those things could've been taking care of before the mission took place.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 20 Jan 2008 - 18:42

I'm not sure I follow the point you're trying to outline in your last sentence, Ryan - would it be alright if you ran it by me again...?

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Angiegarde on Sun 20 Jan 2008 - 19:58

What I meant to say Nachtsider in the last sentence is that the floor where the Republican faction members were on could've been vacated in advance by either the SWA like in episode 3 or by the provincal police who wanted to avoid anyone wondering why there was a police officer guarding the door to one of the rooms.

As for the elevator, I had intended to state that the problems concerning it such as it moving and Elsa losing the stuff that she left behind in it were solved by the elevator being potentially locked into not moving once Elsa reached the floor that had the safehouse of terrorists on it.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 20 Jan 2008 - 20:00

Ten-four, Ryan - and thanks.

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There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Post by Guest on Sun 20 Jan 2008 - 23:16

...A lot of the stuff is still just plain ineficient; doing things in a way that is both harder and less favorable...

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Re: Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

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