Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

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Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Piero on Wed 5 Aug 2009 - 0:35

Specifically, I'm curious as to whether anyone can fill me in on what private bodyguards in Italy are legally allowed to carry. I'm curious because in my stories, there are individuals on both sides of the firing line who are wealthy enough to hire private security and feel threatened enough to need it, but are also in the public eye enough that the weapons their bodyguards carry need to be legal.

So basically, anyone know what sort of weapons private security guards and bodyguards are legally allowed to carry in Italy? (And for that matter which ones they aren't?)

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by MikhailN on Wed 5 Aug 2009 - 1:06

Piero wrote:Specifically, I'm curious as to whether anyone can fill me in on what private bodyguards in Italy are legally allowed to carry. I'm curious because in my stories, there are individuals on both sides of the firing line who are wealthy enough to hire private security and feel threatened enough to need it, but are also in the public eye enough that the weapons their bodyguards carry need to be legal.

So basically, anyone know what sort of weapons private security guards and bodyguards are legally allowed to carry in Italy? (And for that matter which ones they aren't?)

Here you go:

http://www.gunslot.com/articles/gun-and-firearms-laws-justice-culture-and-crime-foreign-countries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law#Italy

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Mags/Italy.htm

The last link is a bit "sensationalized", but still interesting to read. Generally speaking there are laws in place, but if you swagger down the street with LAWs and an M60 nobody's going to try to stop you sweat

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Piero on Wed 5 Aug 2009 - 1:59

Thanks. I think the wikipedia one was probably the most useful of those three. Laughing More facts, less politics. (One should always be wary of any 'facts' that are presented by someone with a political agenda.)

Anyhow, the one thing that wikipedia seemed to be missing was anything specifically relating to private security. I was under the impression from the limited amount of stuff I came across elsewhere that they were under a different set of regulations for security guards. Though I suspect those regulations relate more to the circumstances in which they can carry weapons then what they're allowed to have...

The magazine capacity issue for rifles would probably be one of the biggest issues for private bodyguards worried about a potential attack by heavily armed terrorists (or a government death squad). The lack of auto fire probably wouldn't make a huge difference if they were well trained (and it was kind of expected anyway), but the magazine capacity issue might be more problematic.

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by MikhailN on Wed 5 Aug 2009 - 2:13

Piero wrote:Anyhow, the one thing that wikipedia seemed to be missing was anything specifically relating to private security. I was under the impression from the limited amount of stuff I came across elsewhere that they were under a different set of regulations for security guards. Though I suspect those regulations relate more to the circumstances in which they can carry weapons then what they're allowed to have...

The magazine capacity issue for rifles would probably be one of the biggest issues for private bodyguards worried about a potential attack by heavily armed terrorists (or a government death squad). The lack of auto fire probably wouldn't make a huge difference if they were well trained (and it was kind of expected anyway), but the magazine capacity issue might be more problematic.

Bodyguards? They're still using the guns for self-defence. They need to defend themselves when they're with their employer and a bunch of thugs attack. Of course at the same time they would protect the employer. How about sporting weapons? They'd argue that they're involved in sports (blood sport, that is)

My take on gun laws? Enforcement is quite difficult. Just imagine...

Superintendent: There's a bunch of guys walking down the street with AK47s and body armour
Policeman 1: Err...you go arrest them. I'm busy
Policeman 2: I'm busy too. You go arrest them...
Superintendent: I think they left the district
Policeman 1: Ok it's out of our hands now Razz

That being said, would you tackle a guy knowing full well that he has more ammo in a magazine than policemen in your department?

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 5 Aug 2009 - 11:12

I strikes me as probable that licensed and regulated private security forces would be granted access to weapons proscribed to general civilians. So they could use 9x19mm (as opposed to 9x21mm) and access to SMGs and assault rifles.

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Piero on Wed 5 Aug 2009 - 22:49

Kiskaloo: I'm personally not sure that private security forces would necessarily have access to fully automatic weapons and stuff like that. I was definitely thinking of the 9x21mm IMI round though, particularly as chambered in the Beretta 98 (Italian civilian market variation on the Beretta 92).

Mikhail: Part of the issue here is that some of these people are in the public eye a lot. Perhaps I should provide some details on the situations in question.

In one of my stories, two second gen girls are sent to infiltrate an upper crust gathering which is actually a cover of sorts for a more clandestine, backroom style meeting between some high ranking Padania leaders. Security there is pretty tight but also probably has to be pretty discrete (which, when I think about it, probably means no more then concealed pistols for the guards who are actually going to be interacting with the main guests -the ones who aren't going to be visible to the public face of the events are another matter though.)

In another of my stories, there's a Northern politician who is among the more prominent voices in the North opposed to separation. He is also a significant player with regards to the government's security policies. Naturally, this makes him a huge target, which is why he employees a fairly substantial private security force.

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 5 Aug 2009 - 22:52

Well if they don't, then remind me to not be a VIP in Italy. Smile

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by MikhailN on Wed 5 Aug 2009 - 23:00

Piero wrote:Kiskaloo: I'm personally not sure that private security forces would necessarily have access to fully automatic weapons and stuff like that. I was definitely thinking of the 9x21mm IMI round though, particularly as chambered in the Beretta 98 (Italian civilian market variation on the Beretta 92).

Mikhail: Part of the issue here is that some of these people are in the public eye a lot. Perhaps I should provide some details on the situations in question.

In one of my stories, two second gen girls are sent to infiltrate an upper crust gathering which is actually a cover of sorts for a more clandestine, backroom style meeting between some high ranking Padania leaders. Security there is pretty tight but also probably has to be pretty discrete (which, when I think about it, probably means no more then concealed pistols for the guards who are actually going to be interacting with the main guests -the ones who aren't going to be visible to the public face of the events are another matter though.)

In another of my stories, there's a Northern politician who is among the more prominent voices in the North opposed to separation. He is also a significant player with regards to the government's security policies. Naturally, this makes him a huge target, which is why he employees a fairly substantial private security force.

I'm looking at the conceal carry license that probably allows them to stash a pistol or two (or three) on them. Also, I don't think they mentioned the .45ACP round so you can have fun with a Colt 1911. Anything else and you can put it down to "underground economies" for your weapon needs

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Guest on Thu 6 Aug 2009 - 16:30

I think the 9mm (parabelum, 9x19 browning or luger its the same execpt for the presure its loaded at) are eligal (fuck my english sucks).

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 6 Aug 2009 - 16:32

9x19mm is restricted to military and law enforcement. Civilians may purchase 9x21mm.

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Guest on Thu 6 Aug 2009 - 16:34

Kiskaloo wrote:9x19mm is restricted to military and law enforcement. Civilians may purchase 9x21mm.

Yes but its not the same in terms of power, accuracy, ballistics and others.

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 6 Aug 2009 - 16:38

Resent anime fan wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:9x19mm is restricted to military and law enforcement. Civilians may purchase 9x21mm.

Yes but its not the same in terms of power, accuracy, ballistics and others.

Velocity and impact energy can actually favor the 9x21mm (at 115g and 124g, for example, the 9x21mm travels faster and transmits more energy at impact than a 9x19mm of the same spec).

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by MikhailN on Thu 6 Aug 2009 - 18:31

Resent anime fan wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:9x19mm is restricted to military and law enforcement. Civilians may purchase 9x21mm.

Yes but its not the same in terms of power, accuracy, ballistics and others.

I'm looking at the wikis for both rounds and I'd say they're about the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x21mm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum

The speed and kinetic energy are almost there and when you compare the technical drawings of both rounds, the differences are less than a millimetre. I daresay you could use them interchangably

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by maverick375 on Thu 6 Aug 2009 - 20:00

prohibited calibers include the 9mm Parabellum and all those ammunitions specifically engineered for military purposes (such as 5.7x28mm, 4.6x30mm, .50-BMG and up), while standard military calibers such as 5.56x45mm NATO and 7.62x51mm NATO are available in civilian loads and with civilian denominations (such as .223 Remington, .308 Winchester).

I'm personally a bit confused as to what the big deal is about having "military" calibers vs "civilian" calibers. It doesn't freaking matter!!!! As a loader, I know first hand that some handloads can exceed military pressures, velocities, accuracy, and certainly reliability. Most 9mm defensive ammo in this country toasts the 9mm NATO loads in everything except penetration (and that's only because the morons at the Geneva Convention didn't seem to understand that HP's prevent pass-throughs better than ball ammo. Of course, if you're trying to take the killing out of war, it's exactly the type of thing you go for.) Point being, banning military ammo does nothing, because the other types will make you just as dead. All it does is prevent surplus from getting to the public, which keeps the costs prohibitive and limits the training people can give themselves, which is effectively a restriction on ownership.

Restrictions to the ownership of ammunitions include a maximum of 1500
shotgun shells and/or rifle/carbine cartridges, and a maximum of 200
rounds of pistol ammunitions, which can be elevated to 1500 if the
license holder owns a hunting firearm (carbine) in such calibers.

Italy must fear me. Do you hear me, Italy??!!? FEAR ME!!!!! FOR I HAVE MORE THAN THAT IN MY SOCK-DRAWER!!!! MUWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Seriously. I go through more than that in 6 months. Hell, I put almost 400 rounds downrange yesterday. Me thinks Italy needs to train their cops better if they are worried about a person having more than 200 rounds for a pistol.

Still... there are certainly more-restrictive places in the EU.

Regardless, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by maverick375 on Thu 6 Aug 2009 - 20:17

The speed and kinetic energy are almost there and when you compare the
technical drawings of both rounds, the differences are less than a
millimetre. I daresay you could use them interchangably

And you would kill your hand, and maybe the rest of you if you tried. Never, NEVER!!!!,load a cartridge that the gun is not chambered specifically for.

That two mm of difference is enough to make some 9x19 chambered guns fire OUT-OF-BATTERY, which means the breech is partly open and the barrel is not locked into the frame. This can not only tear up the gun, but also result in serious injury, and/or death.

Also, the taper is very different, so any 9x21 that does successfully in a 9x19 chamber, will expand to a point that will likely result in a case-wall failure, which at the high 9mm pressures, can possibly result in a chamber failure and injury to yourself.

Just don't do it. It's dumb and entirely unnecessary.

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by MikhailN on Thu 6 Aug 2009 - 20:47

maverick375 wrote:I'm personally a bit confused as to what the big deal is about having "military" calibers vs "civilian" calibers. It doesn't freaking matter!!!! As a loader, I know first hand that some handloads can exceed military pressures, velocities, accuracy, and certainly reliability. Most 9mm defensive ammo in this country toasts the 9mm NATO loads in everything except penetration (and that's only because the morons at the Geneva Convention didn't seem to understand that HP's prevent pass-throughs better than ball ammo. Of course, if you're trying to take the killing out of war, it's exactly the type of thing you go for.) Point being, banning military ammo does nothing, because the other types will make you just as dead. All it does is prevent surplus from getting to the public, which keeps the costs prohibitive and limits the training people can give themselves, which is effectively a restriction on ownership.

Personally I never saw the difference between military and civilian ammo. Of course if you're talking about howitzer shells then that's completely under "military". Some of the military long-range shooters I know use handloads because they are more accurate and they trust their own handloads more than that mass-produced gunk.

PS: It's not the Geneva Convention. Those morons dealt with humane treatment of prisoners and ethical behaviour in war (Seriously no one listens to that at all). The one you're looking for is the Hague Convention where the morons there banned Hollow-Points, use of incendiary rounds against soldiers and other things that people usually ignore in a fire fight (Some military long-range shooters use hollow-points because they're supposed to be more accurate and give cleaner kills. Strangely enough if ever we're caught using them we're prosecuted even by our own country and tried by a military court. And that's after we pick off targets for our country. Bloody buggers.)

maverick375 wrote:
The speed and kinetic energy are almost there and when you compare the
technical drawings of both rounds, the differences are less than a millimetre. I daresay you could use them interchangably
And you would kill your hand, and maybe the rest of you if you tried. Never, NEVER!!!!,load a cartridge that the gun is not chambered specifically for.

That two mm of difference is enough to make some 9x19 chambered guns fire OUT-OF-BATTERY, which means the breech is partly open and the barrel is not locked into the frame. This can not only tear up the gun, but also result in serious injury, and/or death.

Also, the taper is very different, so any 9x21 that does successfully in a 9x19 chamber, will
expand to a point that will likely result in a case-wall failure, which at the high 9mm pressures, can possibly result in a chamber failure and injury to yourself.

Just don't do it. It's dumb and entirely unnecessary.

Guh? I suddenly realized how lucky I was. It was just one round...

Then again Russian Roulette is "just one round"

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by maverick375 on Thu 6 Aug 2009 - 21:16

Yeah, Hague convention. Easy to mix up when you're tired.


I suddenly realized how lucky I was. It was just one round...

Then again Russian Roulette is "just one round"

It's really fun to think of the consequences of firing a 9x18 Makarov round in a 9x19 gun.

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Piero on Thu 6 Aug 2009 - 21:55

Well, the reason 9x21mm IMI is so similar to 9x19mm is that 9x21mm basically exists because of places in Europe where it's illegal for civilians to own 9x19mm pistols. Heck, except for the markings I think the only thing the really seperates a Beretta 98 from a Beretta 92 is the barrel, I think the two might even be able to use the same magazines, they just can't properly chamber each other's ammunition. (And I think 9x21mm CZ 75s might even still be sold as CZ 75s.)

Hence why I thought the Beretta 98 would make an appropriate sidearm for some of these bodyguards, particularly any of them that who served time in the Army or Carabinieri. If they know how to use a Beretta 92, they basically know how to use a Beretta 98.

I'm not so sure about how to handle the heavier stuff though. Although I noticed that the 320mm barrel thing doesn't seem to apply to 'common' weapons... wonder if that might make the semi-auto version of the SiG SG 552 legal for bodyguard work if it were equipped with a ten round magazine...

BTW, no offence, but could we try to focus on the original topic? I find the political discussions kind of distract from the original issue.

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Guest on Fri 7 Aug 2009 - 15:13

Kiskaloo wrote:
Resent anime fan wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:9x19mm is restricted to military and law enforcement. Civilians may purchase 9x21mm.

Yes but its not the same in terms of power, accuracy, ballistics and others.

Velocity and impact energy can actually favor the 9x21mm (at 115g and 124g, for example, the 9x21mm travels faster and transmits more energy at impact than a 9x19mm of the same spec).

See my point? not the SAME balistics but better insted.

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Guest on Fri 7 Aug 2009 - 15:15

MikhailN wrote:
Resent anime fan wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:9x19mm is restricted to military and law enforcement. Civilians may purchase 9x21mm.

Yes but its not the same in terms of power, accuracy, ballistics and others.

I'm looking at the wikis for both rounds and I'd say they're about the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x21mm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum

The speed and kinetic energy are almost there and when you compare the technical drawings of both rounds, the differences are less than a millimetre. I daresay you could use them interchangably

No you cant interchange them no matter what! becuase its the same deal as with the .223 Rem and the 5.56x45mmNATO would you feed such ammo on your AR-15? I would not becuase they are not loaded at the same presure.

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Guest on Fri 7 Aug 2009 - 15:17

maverick375 wrote:
prohibited calibers include the 9mm Parabellum and all those ammunitions specifically engineered for military purposes (such as 5.7x28mm, 4.6x30mm, .50-BMG and up), while standard military calibers such as 5.56x45mm NATO and 7.62x51mm NATO are available in civilian loads and with civilian denominations (such as .223 Remington, .308 Winchester).

I'm personally a bit confused as to what the big deal is about having "military" calibers vs "civilian" calibers. It doesn't freaking matter!!!! As a loader, I know first hand that some handloads can exceed military pressures, velocities, accuracy, and certainly reliability. Most 9mm defensive ammo in this country toasts the 9mm NATO loads in everything except penetration (and that's only because the morons at the Geneva Convention didn't seem to understand that HP's prevent pass-throughs better than ball ammo. Of course, if you're trying to take the killing out of war, it's exactly the type of thing you go for.) Point being, banning military ammo does nothing, because the other types will make you just as dead. All it does is prevent surplus from getting to the public, which keeps the costs prohibitive and limits the training people can give themselves, which is effectively a restriction on ownership.

Restrictions to the ownership of ammunitions include a maximum of 1500
shotgun shells and/or rifle/carbine cartridges, and a maximum of 200
rounds of pistol ammunitions, which can be elevated to 1500 if the
license holder owns a hunting firearm (carbine) in such calibers.

Italy must fear me. Do you hear me, Italy??!!? FEAR ME!!!!! FOR I HAVE MORE THAN THAT IN MY SOCK-DRAWER!!!! MUWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Seriously. I go through more than that in 6 months. Hell, I put almost 400 rounds downrange yesterday. Me thinks Italy needs to train their cops better if they are worried about a person having more than 200 rounds for a pistol.

Still... there are certainly more-restrictive places in the EU.

Regardless, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!

Try not to burn so much ammo man otherwise you will develop bad habbits. Try dry firing at your house for 30 mins and them go to the range and burn about 100-200 rounds and you will be seeng your groups shrink.

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Re: Anyone know anything about Italian firearms laws?

Post by Guest on Fri 7 Aug 2009 - 15:19

maverick375 wrote:
The speed and kinetic energy are almost there and when you compare the
technical drawings of both rounds, the differences are less than a
millimetre. I daresay you could use them interchangably

And you would kill your hand, and maybe the rest of you if you tried. Never, NEVER!!!!,load a cartridge that the gun is not chambered specifically for.

That two mm of difference is enough to make some 9x19 chambered guns fire OUT-OF-BATTERY, which means the breech is partly open and the barrel is not locked into the frame. This can not only tear up the gun, but also result in serious injury, and/or death.

Also, the taper is very different, so any 9x21 that does successfully in a 9x19 chamber, will expand to a point that will likely result in a case-wall failure, which at the high 9mm pressures, can possibly result in a chamber failure and injury to yourself.

Just don't do it. It's dumb and entirely unnecessary.

Thanks for ecplaining it to them...god I bet if you give them .223 Rem and 5.56NATO they would load both into a AR-15 and then the handgaurd would explode!!.

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