Jean: The man who never smiles?

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Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Sat 17 Nov 2007 - 10:49

100 000 000 points to the one who finds a smiling Jean. I'm not picky, anything that isn't a straight line and goes upwards is a smile (clenched teeth scowls don't count).

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 17 Nov 2007 - 11:19


In the anime, heís smiling when (at the hospital) he shows Claes to Raballo, but thatís all that comes to mind.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by LoC978 on Sat 17 Nov 2007 - 12:57

hmmm... I'd say Jean's usual expression is something along the lines of a stern frown:


so, in some cases, a straight line is a smile:


but there are better examples... in the beginning of Chapter 9, when he's acting the part of a French cosmetics salesman, he's smiling almost constantly:

-creepy, I know.

one more in volume 2 (similar to the one Danjo3 mentioned):


and, of course, he smiles briefly when hanging out with his brother in Sicily:


...
that's worth like, 900,000,000 points, right?
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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Sat 17 Nov 2007 - 22:29

There are some that are fake, and some that are arguable, but I said the man who never smiles so I guess it counts. And then there are the last two that are unquestionable. I think you got them all too. Smile

@LoC978 wrote:-creepy, I know.
You said it. My first reaction was "Holy crap, is that really Jean?"

Wow, :shock: vol. 2 p. 8 is very interesting. I never saw Jean as someone who would actually want to hurt Rico for any reason (as in enjoy it, even in a fit of passion), and he never seems to say anything intended to hurt her emotionally either. He's all business. "That's unacceptable try again. Do it one more time. Try, to control your body." stuff like that. Never tells her she's useless or anything.

All that said, I never expected him to look like a good father (even for as much as one panel), so early in the manga. He's looking at Rico, smiling (maybe at his accomplishments as a handler, but parents do that too), and giving another handler helpful advice how to raise his kid.

Yeah, I guess that's 900,000,000 points. Get another 100,000,000 and you get a doughnut of your choice delivered anywhere in the world withing 24 hours. (Yeah, they got the SAS's best air cavalery fast-reaction unit doing this.) You just have to figure out their phone number.

p.s. - Didn't you guys hate those game places where you get tickets for playing games, and for something like 1000 tickets (which would take you all day, and a barrel full of quarters) the best you could get was a miniature lego set.

-p.s.2: I'll definantly re-read the manga. I've seen many times now that it will have almost the same entertainment value since there are so may details to rediscover.


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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 17 Nov 2007 - 22:33

:lol!:

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 18 Nov 2007 - 1:28

3klicks wrote:I never saw Jean as someone who would actually want to hurt Rico for any reason (as in enjoy it, even in a fit of passion), and he never seems to say anything intended to hurt her emotionally either.
Don't forget that the last manga pictures we have of Jean show's him hugging Rico. I tell ya, I'm curious as hell to know what that's all about.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Sun 18 Nov 2007 - 10:33

Danjo's post
I was mainly surprised to see something that early in the manga. Vol. 2 is practically the beggining of time (can't expect any character development yet).

Danjo wrote:Don't forget that the last manga pictures we have of Jean show's him hugging Rico. I tell ya, I'm curious as hell to know what that's all about.
Huh? This is after vol 6 right? If it is don't tell me, I want to read it when I can get my hands on a scanlation. You sure got me interested, though. I guess Jean takes a really long time to grow close to someone.

There are indications of his softening up in vol. 6, and (unlike i thought) it continues after Sicily, with the friendly-hand-on-arm "Let's go" thing. I'm thinking: is that just time passing, or is there something more complicated going on?

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by LoC978 on Sun 18 Nov 2007 - 11:06

3klicks wrote:
Danjo wrote:Don't forget that the last manga pictures we have of Jean show's him hugging Rico. I tell ya, I'm curious as hell to know what that's all about.
Huh? This is after vol 6 right? If it is don't tell me, I want to read it when I can get my hands on a scanlation. You sure got me interested, though. I guess Jean takes a really long time to grow close to someone.
yeah, well after... let's just say there won't be a scanlation of it for a long time.
if you're truly adamant about not seeing spoilers, do NOT click any of these (especially the first two)
to Danjo- I imagine the hug was a reaction to what happens in the first two pages here... dammit, I can't say the why without spoiling it...
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

however, if you want to see just the frame where Jean hugs Rico (Japanese text removed), this one is it:
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Sun 18 Nov 2007 - 11:44

Heh, I'm a "read the story right" fanatic, made of solid steel. So I guess I'll just have to clench my teeth and wait it out.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 18 Nov 2007 - 11:47

@LoC978 wrote:to Danjo- I imagine the hug was a reaction to what happens in the first two pages here... dammit, I can't say the why without spoiling it...
I donít think thereís any way to spoil it, nobody here speaks Japanese.

Anyway, I think youíre on the right track LoC978. I think Angieís situation hit a little to close to home. It probably brought up the specter of Enrika again. Maybe it forced Jean to admit to himself just how much he cares for Rico.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by LoC978 on Sun 18 Nov 2007 - 16:48

going back to something I accidentally skipped:
3klicks wrote:Wow, vol. 2 p. 8 is very interesting. I never saw Jean as someone who would actually want to hurt Rico for any reason (as in enjoy it, even in a fit of passion), and he never seems to say anything intended to hurt her emotionally either. He's all business. "That's unacceptable try again. Do it one more time. Try, to control your body." stuff like that. Never tells her she's useless or anything.

All that said, I never expected him to look like a good father (even for as much as one panel), so early in the manga. He's looking at Rico, smiling (maybe at his accomplishments as a handler, but parents do that too), and giving another handler helpful advice how to raise his kid.
This was actually one of the first things that set the Jean/Rico fratello apart from the rest, for me (as evidenced here... I know that looks like a shameless plug, but it really does apply). Jean is extremely cold on the surface, yet he takes care of Rico and will sometimes act like a proud father (or maybe a proud pet owner...)
the result is that they're extremely effective and outwardly completely professional, yet they have a just as much rapport with each other as the other fratello do.
I wrote:As she ran back toward the dorms, Rico entertained the thought that perhaps Jeanís quickly suppressed grin as he approached her at the finish line hadnít been her imagination... but only for a moment.
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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 18 Nov 2007 - 17:01

For what it's worth - my Mandarin dub of Gunslinger Girl's Episode Seven has Jean referring to Rico as his daughter and not his sister.
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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Sun 18 Nov 2007 - 17:09

Yeah. The clear communication and interaction between them I cought on quickly, but the apperent (albeit rare) warmth I saw as something that only came to the surface later.

I liked the story. Especially the ending was good. Smile Guessepe would have a lot of trouble understanding. It makes me think of some of the reactions I've seen people have in Canada which appeared so unnatural to me at first. Henrietta and Rico live in very different worlds (it's not certain which is better: the're different). I really respect Jean's perfectionism and the disciplined way it is put into practice. His principles are not ausual, but he is definantly a man of principles. And I don't think he cuts himself any more slack then he does for anyone else (This was apperent in the story as well.).

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 18 Nov 2007 - 19:35

Jean's perfectionism fits best with Rico's wanting to give it her all to do her best for him. Remember that she spent 11 years in a hospital bed unable to do anything for herself.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Sun 18 Nov 2007 - 22:41

@Nachtsider wrote:For what it's worth - my Mandarin dub of Gunslinger Girl's Episode Seven has Jean referring to Rico as his daughter and not his sister.
At first I thought you meant when Jean was pretending to be the salesman on vacation. Did you mean all the time?

An interesting parrallel occured to me. In this anime (and maybe the manga too) a policeman acquainted with Jose put his hand on Henriettas head (saying "Kids are the cutest at this age."). Henrietta made an annoyed, unhappy face, but, obviously, didn't do anything, and Jose didn't seem to mind. In the Elsa's Death episode the same happened with Fermi and Rico, but Jean brushed Fermi's hand off. Sort of a "Don't touch" thing, or possibly "mine".

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 18 Nov 2007 - 22:45

Klicks, I was referring to the period in Episode Seven during which Jean and Rico initially met Fillipo and told them their cover story.

Yes, the scene where Detective Enzo comments on Henrietta's cuteness does appear in both the anime and the manga. The similar sequence of events involving Fermi, Jean and Rico is something that I wasn't aware of, though - my memory must be failing me. I'll have to go read/watch the series again.
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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by LoC978 on Sun 18 Nov 2007 - 22:50

3klicks wrote:An interesting parrallel occured to me. In this anime (and maybe the manga too) a policeman acquainted with Jose put his hand on Henriettas head (saying "Kids are the cutest at this age."). Henrietta made an annoyed, unhappy face, but, obviously, didn't do anything, and Jose didn't seem to mind.
hmmm.. never noticed that parallel. But now that you mention it, Jean does seem more posessive of Rico than Giuseppe is of Henrietta.
@Nachtsider wrote:The similar sequence of events involving Fermi, Jean and Rico is something that I wasn't aware of, though
just checked... it only happens in the anime. Fermi never tries to touch Rico in the manga. That's probably because he was smoking, and I imagine that's why the cigarette was changed out for a euro coin in the anime.

--figured this is as good an excuse as any. I'm trying to capture the clip offa my DVD, then I'm gonna try to host it...
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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by LoC978 on Mon 19 Nov 2007 - 0:45

hmmm.. DVD capture is gonna take awhile learn properly (or to find the right tool). I could just edit from my fansubs, but I'd rather use the English dub... and no subtitles. just to be different.
I did find a stupid little animated gif capture tool, though:

**edit**
learned to use VLC snapshots and ImageReady:


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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 19 Nov 2007 - 4:12

3klicks wrote:
An interesting parrallel occured to me. In this anime (and maybe the manga too) a policeman acquainted with Jose put his hand on Henriettas head (saying "Kids are the cutest at this age."). Henrietta made an annoyed, unhappy face, but, obviously, didn't do anything, and Jose didn't seem to mind. In the Elsa's Death episode the same happened with Fermi and Rico, but Jean brushed Fermi's hand off. Sort of a "Don't touch" thing, or possibly "mine".
I didnít see Henrietta as annoyed, just kind of embarrassed by the attention. From what Iíve seen, Enzo works with Section 2 quite a lot and is obliviously friends with Jose (he also works with Jean in vol.4, Tosca). He also seems very fond of Henrietta and Iím sure she knows that. On the other hand, Fermi is with Section 1 - Section 2ís rivals. Thereís a lot of animosity between the two agencies so it only make sense that Jean would be somewhat hostile towards him.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Mon 19 Nov 2007 - 14:10

Danjo's post above.
That's a very legitimate point. Ferro was there to get information about the cyborgs and Jean was there to make sure he doesn't get any. I could still envision Jean doing the same thing with someone else, but in that case it was only to be expected.

Annoyed and embarrassed are on the same continuum. I don't think that Henrietta was particularly bothered by it, but I don't think she enjoyed it either. It's kind of like the comments Triela gets when she appears at Hillshire's, uh, workplace. They are all meant well, but I can see them as annoying or embarrassing to her.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Wileama on Mon 19 Nov 2007 - 21:24

You know the first time I watched episode 3, I cried for Rico. I also hated Jean. As time went on thought I hated him less, and less. I saw him as more human. The more I thought about him, the more I realized he wasn't as much of a jerk as I thought. I've actually come to accept that he's a pretty human character trying to make it through a difficult situation. So i've come to like him better. He isn't the best handler, but he is actually a good one.

That being said I have two new theories on why he brushed Fermi's hand away. 1) She's not a girl, she's a tool. So treat her like a tool, you don't pat the head of your tool. Well maybe you do, but that's not the kind of tool I'm talking about. 2) You don't pet a seeing eye dog while it's working. Why? You distract it, so the dog looses focus on it's job. That's bad. Rico is like a seeing eye dog. Only replace the word seeing eye, with murder. And dog with machine.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 19 Nov 2007 - 21:29

It's amazing, how multitudes of Gunslinger Girl fans eventually changed their minds about Jean.

Episode Three is among a handful that I consider to be the heart and soul of the series.
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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Mon 19 Nov 2007 - 22:25

Somehow, I never hated Jean. Call me weird, but the "scolding" really didn't have that much effect on me. I certainly thought that Rico didn't deserve it and that it was harsh, but it didn't shock me or make me think that Jean is a monster either. (The worst thing about being beaten is not the pain, but the fear. If the person is controlled and follows clear rules there is a lot less fear, and the beating can actually produce discipline rather then being a useless outlet for emotions.) I quickly started thinking of him as one of the better handlers.

The "scolded" scene closed many people's eyes. Although, I suppose it's understandible.

For those stubborn ones, in vol. 6 Yu drags what we could expect was there out into the open, and this proubably convinces most.

Wileama's last post
People don't usually get anoyed if someone takes a wrench out of their tool box. Jean put effort and time into training Rico, so at the least he feels personally attached to her (even if it's not a person to person type of attachement). You just don't touch something that's personal to Jean without his explicit consent. I know I wouldn't.

#2 That's another good one. In this particular scene it would be what Danjo said and your #2. As for other situations I think the above would still hold.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Wileama on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 0:12

@Nachtsider wrote:It's amazing, how multitudes of Gunslinger Girl fans eventually changed their minds about Jean.

Episode Three is among a handful that I consider to be the heart and soul of the series.
I think it's testament to the show how people change their minds about Jean. It would be easy if here where just some monolith of evil. Something tangible for all the wrongs at the SWA. In a way he does serve that roll from time to time. Recondition her, sure she wont live as long, so what? Hey Rico kill the boy you love. Cyborgs are hunting dogs. That how he's introduced as a person at first. They you start to realize there is more too him. You discover that pain he carries. You see his acts of kindness, rare, and occasionally peculiar they may be. Jean rounds out, and he is a monolith for the SWA. He is human to his very core, flawed. He wants justice, with a heavy helping of revenge. To that end he does things I think truly alien to him. There is that sign of struggle over it, those signs that he over comes it. Does what he can to be a good person in a fucked up world.[/stream of consciousness rant]

Yes that episode is easily one of the best in the series.

Anyway 3klicks. My first theory, the one about tools. I think I didn't really say my point. Jean does a lot to dehumanize Rico in the beginning of the series. I think this might just be another one of those things. He doesn't want a little girl around him, he need it to be a tool. So patting her head, breaks that to an extent. Or maybe I'm just reaching to hard.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 0:18

Missed Nachtsider's epiode comment somehow. Yeah, that episode was definitely great.

Anyway 3klicks. My first theory, the one about tools. I think I didn't
really say my point. Jean does a lot to dehumanize Rico in the
beginning of the series. I think this might just be another one of
those things. He doesn't want a little girl around him, he need it to
be a tool. So patting her head, breaks that to an extent. Or maybe I'm
just reaching to hard.
Ok. I'm getting that. This is proubably the third reason he does it.

Although there is something slightly strange about it. Rico is derived from his sisters name after all. (Enrica > Enrico > Rico) So, it's kind'a mixed up.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Wileama on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 0:24

**blinks**
I... I never noticed that before. That's so brilliant. Sadly I think I'm going to go to sleep now.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 0:36

@Wileama wrote:**blinks**
I... I never noticed that before. That's so brilliant. Sadly I think I'm going to go to sleep now.
Can't take credit for it. I read it on wikipedia.

Damn this Cowboy Be-Bop OST. I can't go to sleep untill it's finished. (call it a compulsion) Dang, 15 min left, so tiered. Oh, it's "Ask DNA": this is a good one. *sings along like a complete idiot* "You need answers for your dismay. Ask yourself, ask your mom, ask DNAaaaaaaa." Sleep deprivation does funny things. If you go without sleep for 3 days you're guarenteed to have halucinations. If that doesn't work there are a couple of mushrooms and roots you can try (they grow in most of North America). Yeah, that's what they teach you in a Canadian University.

p.s. - Question for the technically aware: Is there any way to upload music files, and make them play on a forum>?

[edit] You lied Wileama. You're still here.

HA! It's finished. I'm Freeeeeeeee! Good night to you all. :sleep:

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 1:10

I've often had an alternate theory as to how Jean picked a name for Rico - you can read about it here.

Nothing like peyote buttons to up your connections with the infinite. Seeing stuff like your late grandfather crawling up your leg with a purple fire extinguisher or flying apes playing polo with the Queen Mother are standard fare.
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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by LoC978 on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 1:14

3klicks wrote:
@Wileama wrote:**blinks**
I... I never noticed that before. That's so brilliant. Sadly I think I'm going to go to sleep now.
Can't take credit for it. I read it on wikipedia.
something missing: Enrico is actually the male form of Enrica (and, interestingly enough, is the Italian form of Henry... hence: Henrietta), and Rico is a nickname for Enrico (and Ricardo, actually, but that's irrelevant)
*ahem*
anyway, I believe it was the Oddity who posted it to the wiki article (it's kind of her baby)... but I can't remember who first looked into it...
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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 1:20

@Nachtsider wrote:Nothing like peyote buttons to up your connections with the infinite.
Seeing stuff like your late grandfather crawling up your leg with a
purple fire extinguisher or flying apes playing polo with the Queen
Mother are standard fare.
Yeah it was the peyote cactus I was reffering to. I have a pretty crazy Primitive Religions prof. Never tried, but from what I know Canada is drug paradise.

[edit] We're even now Wileama, I lied too.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 1:21

That right, Klicks? Last time I heard, it was Columbia and the Golden Triangle.
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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by LoC978 on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 1:23

Holland. Amsterdam specifically. They have rehab programs for everything, and nothing's illegal (or so I've been told... never researched it). Where's Tommy when ya need him? ...but yeah, there's a reason cocaine is referred to as 'Colombian Blood' in some circles...
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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by emperor on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 1:57

In the Elsa's Death episode the same happened with Fermi and Rico, but Jean brushed Fermi's hand off. Sort of a "Don't touch" thing, or possibly "mine".

Wow!!

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 9:57

@Nachtsider wrote:That right, Klicks? Last time I heard, it was Columbia and the Golden Triangle.
Compared to the US I mean. A lot of stuff supposedly get's smuggled down from here. I wouldn't really know, but that's what I heard.

@Nachtsider wrote:I've often had an alternate theory as to how Jean picked a name for Rico - you can read about it here.
That would be great irony, seeing what kind of organization the SWA is. Although the "extreme penalties" part would suit Jean quite nicely.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Wileama on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 21:34

3klicks wrote:[edit] You lied Wileama. You're still here.
3klicks wrote:[edit] We're even now Wileama, I lied too.
I am ever present. I am always lurking. Always reading. Posts written in silence, ready to strike at a moments notice! [batman mode]I AM WILEAMA[/batman mode]

Right sorry about that. Anyway I assume I registered as online once I left. I never noticed, how could I? I bet I know why though? I almost never shut down my computer. As a result I tend to leave certain applications open. My browser is almost always open as a result. So is the tab that holds this page. I had always assumed that after a long enough period of inactivity, I would register as offline. However clearly 2 hours isn't inactive enough. Though the computer was alseep by your second post. Odd.

@LoC978 wrote:Something missing: Enrico is actually the male form of Enrica (and, interestingly enough, is the Italian form of Henry... hence: Henrietta), and Rico is a nickname for Enrico (and Ricardo, actually, but that's irrelevant)
*ahem*
anyway, I believe it was the Oddity who posted it to the wiki article (it's kind of her baby)... but I can't remember who first looked into it...
You know this is one of those theories that can't really be disproved. There are ways it works, and ways it doesn't work. I believe. That is all.

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Fri 7 Dec 2007 - 16:08

3klicks wrote: I'm Freeeeeeeee!

You made me listened to it again...and I suddenly got a premonition. Which GSG deserve this song when she leaves the world of the living?

My knee-jerk reaction immediately voted for Triela: she's the most hardworking one, most dedicated towards the girls, while having inner conflict when it comes to Hillshire, combined that with a tragic past....how glorious it would be when she's finally free....

but then I thought of Rico, she was confined in bed, and now she is confined as a killing machine...but in her world she sees everything as 'beautiful,' so she can't possibly tormented internally...

Claes, Ange, maybe Elsa....

then I looked into the handler and *drumrolls* the vote goes to Jean Croce. He is the one character so tormented ala. Spike in CB. Death of a lover, death of parents, death of his sister...(maybe one day death of his brother, and his tool, too?), shouldering the burden of Jose's choices in life and his fiancees's brother dissappointment in him, and so on. Revenge truly is the sole thing that keeps this man moving. Just like the final scenes in Bebop, I can picture a brutally-wounded mean-Jean dashes toward the last Pandania after final showdown of SWA vs. Pandania, then 'bang.' With no more terrorist to kill and an obliterated SWA, the man is ready to go.

hhmmm, sounds like a fanfic material

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Re: Jean: The man who never smiles?

Post by Guest on Fri 7 Dec 2007 - 19:03

wasyhoo wrote:hhmmm, sounds like a fanfic material
A man that can never stop dreaming. It fits well. I bet Jean's life after the incident must have been very mich like a bad dream, and the scene in which he sees Enrica has that same kind of vibe about it. "The world is not what it would seem; it's but a dream within a dream."

Yeah... A pearl of light is best appreciated on a plate of utter darkness. Now that you mention it I might actually expand something I wrote into more of a full story.
http://gunslinger-girl.up-with.com/your-fanart-fanfiction-f3/3klicks-fanfiction-t187.htm

Angelica, maybe, but in a very different context and mood. Her life is like a series of dreams, as if she was constantly waking up, and had a vague whisp of memory of the life before.

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