Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

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Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 0:55

This is for all of you who know a thing or two about helicopters, like Full Metal Panic, and don't mind helping a fellow fan work out some technical issues.

I'm not really writing a lot these days due to a heavy duty term at school, but I've been considering going back to writing FMP fan fiction at some point. And that's brought back some issues I've had with the technical aspects of the series, in particular Mithril's MH-67 Pave Mare helicopters.

I should note I don't stick that close to canon on some of FMP's technical issues. The series can be unrealistic sometimes and also sometimes contradict itself. The last point especially makes me feel justified in sometimes tweaking things a little to make them more sensible.

So basically, here's one of the biggest questions. You have a helicopter designed to transport Armored Mobile Master Slave Systems like the M9 Gernsback as one of its primary roles. What sort of configuration makes the most sense for doing this and how the heck do you secure the payload to the helicopter?

Personally, I think a skycrane configuration makes the most sense, stowing a payload with the dimensions of an AS inside a helicopter's cabin seems a bit iffy to me. But I'm still left wondering how the hell you'd secure the underslung AS. How the hell do you attach a eight and a half meter tall, nine tonne payload to a helicopter and not make it unwieldly, particularly when you need to be able to load and unload it rapidly? I've wondered about using some of the M9's hardpoints as a linking system, but positioning a large helicopter and an AS with enough position to link up using the hardpoints seems like it would be really difficult.

There are other questions I have about the Pave Mare as well, but I figure this is one of the biggest ones and probably a good place to start...

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by tsundere9kagami2 on Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 1:34

All I know piero is that in the series they could make their herecopters go invisible So I Think they could have engineered a way to carry a gundam and let it go wuickly

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by maverick375 on Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 8:50

Best bet would be to use a helo designed around a cargo container large enough to move the thing. The container would have all of the connections and such for start-up power and computer and radio uplinks, because keeping the pilot informed is important, execially before a drop. When they are on-target, the bottom of the container opens and the mech drops free.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Alfisti on Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 12:05

I think a hardpoint mounting system could feasibly work. What you'd need would be some sort of flexible guide to line the fixing points up. I guess in the anime they showed the M9s stepping onto a mounting then being hoisted up.

Swinging back to canon again: the other thing is you see the M9s being deployed a couple of different ways, which also makes things hard. At the start of TSR they're dropped like bombs, but in the trailer short episode for that they're also thrown out the back of a C-17, which would suggest a possible dolly system of sorts. That would raise some intersting ways also of getting things lined up to mount the mech. You can manouver a wheeled bed pretty accurately, particularly with technologies like Smart Wheel coming online. In the field, maybe some sort of cable hoist and guidance system? Tension one side or the other to position the mountings?

Hmm, tricky design question that I've sadly not got the time to fully explore right now. Shall give it some more thought though.
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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 16:56

We need LoC and/or Wil in this thread, stat.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by LoC978 on Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 23:31

having a background in attack aviation, not transportation, your guys' guess is about as good as mine. I've helped sling-load stuff, but that method of transport is rather insufficient for moving a 9-ton mech in combat-ready configuration.
Mav's idea seems as close as anything I could come up with. Cargo containers designed with a specific mech in mind (mounting to hardpoints inside), and a helo that hooks up to the outside of said containers like a crane claw. The problem with the way I envision it is... you'd wind up deploying mechs onto their faces from a few meters up unless the hardpoint mounting allowed for the mech to rotate downward from its shoulder mounts.
...need autocad for this stuff.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 1:31

http://superrobotwar.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/srwhotnews_pla5_m92.jpg

Thought it might be good to have some pics of the M9 for reference as far as location of hardpoints was concerned. They've got some on the top sufaces of the mech too, actually. Of course, it might also be worth noting that it might make sense for the MH-67 to have been designed with the older, heavier, and bulkier M6 Bushnell in mind as payload, though that doesn't necessarily mean the carry methods for the diffferent mechs are the same.

A real world CH-53E Super Stallion can supposedly sling load up to 36,000 pounds, which is considerably more then nine tonnes. Of course, Super Stallions are fucking huge helicopters, and just because something can sling load that much weight doesn't mean it's ideal, especially as far as agility of the carrier aircraft is concerned. A payload that's flush to the aircraft seems much better.

In some respects I'm not keen on the cargo container system as it adds weight and you'd probably need to drop the container off then pick it up again in order to recover the mech in question. Not to mention it would have to be a container at least about two stories tall to fit an M9, even on hands and knees, which makes that payload seem awkward as well. On the other hand, though it is a flush fit, it would make it possible for the pilot to leave the mech during long flights, and it sort of fits with the idea of having swappable mission modules. An airframe the size of the Pave Mare seems like it would be an ideal platform for many things, and the ability to reconfigure between a mech carrier, troop carrier, electronic warfare platform, and arial command post seems like a useful feature.

Although I've sometimes felt the De Danaan relies a little too much on the Pave Mares... it sometimes seems like there's a real lack of any smaller transport helicopters among it's air assets. (That was one of the other issues I'd felt might be worth talking about.)

Hope I'm not overwhelming people here. There's a lot of different factors floating around at the moment...

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by LoC978 on Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 2:24

honestly, I can barely remember what the MH-67 looks like in the series... can't seem to find any screen shots of it, either.

...but as to a helicopter's size... you're not gonna be able to easily lift 9 metric tons with any regular sized chopper. The 'black technology' plot device aside, a helicopter needs to be damn near the size of a Chinook to even take off carrying over 19,000 pounds... and even a Chinook would be feeling that much weight pretty badly.
You want maneuverability in the air with something that heavy? You need a plot device, plain and simple.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 3:03

The FMP universe does have more advanced turbine engines. Though I still feel that logically, a helicopter like the Pave Mare should have had Kamov type contra-rotating main rotors instead of a conventional main and tail set up, so that it could make more efficient use of engine power. Then again, the aforementioned Super Stallion is a real life heavy lift helicopter and has more conventional rotors.

My phrasing there probably wasn't very good. I seriously doubt a fully loaded Pave Mare would be very agile. However, having the payload carried flush definitely has advantages over swinging it around like a pendulum.

Just as a note in case you were confused, I wasn't suggesting using smaller helicopters for AS transport. That role obviously requires a heavy lift chopper. I do wonder however if the lack of smaller transports leaves a capability gap in other roles.

Here are three shots of the MH-67 as portrayed in the anime. Apologies for the subtitles in one shot, but I only have DVDs, one, two and seven with me here in residence. The rest are at home, so I had to resort to another method to get screenshots.







I don't see the any sign of the side mounted miniguns that featured in the novels. It is interesting to note however that they've got considerable vertical height.

The JSDF helicopters in the A21 arc took a somewhat different approach with external payloads. (Note the heavier and bulkier second gen ASes being carried here as opposed to the third gen M9s.) I think this approach actually makes some sense, but wonder how you'd achieve the necessary precision for the link up stage.


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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 8:50

What you want and need are two different things. A super-flit helicopter with the ability to defend itself does not exist, nor can it.


Sikorsky CH-54 Sky Crane Helicopter

While picking up and dropping cargo/men, its vulnerable. You would require an escort of smaller attack copters to defend it, simillarly how escort fighter planes go with bombers and cargo planes during war time.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Tommygunner70 on Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 10:29

Agreed.

Transport helicopters are sitting ducks when they land, load up or take off. This is mainly because they are built to be powerful and not to be agile as a combat helicopter.

Half of the protection on a combat helicopter is its maneuverability and speed. Sure you could out fit a transport with some turrets so it can defend itself, but that will still make it an easy target for the enemy because it will be stationary most of the times.

One of the reasons why WWII B17's were still escorted despite the fact that a B17 had gunner turrets on latterly every side of it. (Top, button, nose, tail, sides)

But the enemy attacking a B17 will be in the advantage because he will be on the move continuously and never in a straight line. a B17 would fly in a straight line, so while the enemy fighter can only attack head on. the B17's gunners will also have to cope with the enemy disappearing from view and then suddenly appear again on a side they weren't looking.

It only gets worse when its multiple targets zipping past you. Think of it as you being the B17 and a few bees that are buzzing around you being the enemy fighters.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 11:29

So are the mechas carried inside the MH-67? They seem to have a large cargo hold.

What you probably would be looking at is something either like a CH-54 Sky Crane or a CH-47 with the cabin between the two rotors removed and replaced with a boom like the CH-54.

You'd load and transport the mecha flat (belly-side down) with mounts on the shoulder that would allow the mecha to swing forward as the legs were lowered until the mecha was in a standing position. You'd then remote disconnect the cables holding the feet and lower it a short distance using the shoulder mounts until it was on the ground, at which point the shoulder cables would disconnect and the mecha was free to maneuver.

Clearly, you couldn't really do this in a hot LZ unless you had attack choppers around to suppress enemy fire as you're probably looking at upwards of a five minute drop procedure. But since the Mecha can maneuver on their own, dropping them a safe distance away and letting them ingress on their own power shouldn't be a problem.

For field recovery, you'd need a human crew to attach the cables, then just do the reverse of the deployment - jack up the shoulders to get it off the ground and then pull in the feet until it's horizontal again and egress.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Tommygunner70 on Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 11:37

Yeah well, The mecha in FMP can still operate their arms when suspended from a transport, provided that the transport pilot can compensate for the shifting of weight. That and like a human, those mecha's can survive the plunge from quite a bit of altitude. So the helicopter would only have to be at an acceptable altitude to just release the mecha like a bomber aircraft would a bomb. From there on out its the mecha pilot that makes sure that the mecha lands without leg damage. Simple act of retracting the legs a bit upon impact like we would do when we job off a ledge or something like that.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 11:49

Well that would make it even easier, then. Just load and transport them horizontally and drop them.

You'd need two sets of choppers for recovery - one to bring in the transporter-erectors (and crew) necessary to get the mecha back to horizontal and then a second chopper to load the mecha aboard and transport.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Tommygunner70 on Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 12:29

Not really. the transports for the mecha's are designated transports. the swing arms for the mecha are fitted so that the Helicopter can operate them. Its just a matter of hovering above the mecha, extending the swing arm, attach, liftoff, swing and close the bay doors.

Its not like Evangeline where you need a crew to load the mecha into a transport. That and the helicopters in FMP belonging to Mithril(Which Sousuke Sagara is a Mecha pilot for) are fitted with a stealth-field which basically makes the Helicopter invisible to the necked eye and some of the old radar tech. In the FMP Universe, there are only a few highly advanced surface to air missiles that are able to track a stealthed craft.


The aerial deployment of a mecha can be easily compaired with a paratrooper jumping out of a plane; Feet first!


NOTE: When Mithril is loading up inside the their submarine, then a crew needs to help because there isn't really enough room to have the Helicopter hover above the mech.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 12:40

Third generation Arm Slaves like the M9 can survive significant drops (though they are sometimes equipped with parachutes, so I imagine there's a limit). I suspect the Second Generation models most organisations are using (and which I personally think it would be logical for the MH-67 to have originally been designed to handle) are quite a bit less capable in that regard however. That being said, I don't think it's illogical for the MH-67 to have been modified for use with the M9, I think it's just worth considering that might not have been the original intended payload.

As mentioned before, I think a Skycrane type configuration is very logical for a helicopter of this type. I think a cross between a Ch-54 and a Kamov naval helicopter, but larger in size then either of them, would make sense here. And assuming that the AS handling equipment could either get out of the way or easily be removed, you could probably make it capable of accepting 'mission modules' for other roles, like troop transporting or electronic warfare, which would be a major boon.

I still wonder if it might be possible to do something with the upper torso hardpoints. Wondering about maneuvering the bird so that got it's back end just above the mech in question then relying on the mech's pilot to get the final positioning done. Course, that would leave the legs dangling below the helicopter in flight (unless maybe you brought the knees up to the torso), but that's stil far better then hanging something below the helicopter on a cable. And hopefully it could be done fairly fast. The TDD-1 doesn't have a lot of Pave Mares, they're big and take up a lot of deck space. I think it's important that each Pave Mare be able to deploy and recover an AS on it's own.

I know canonically the Pave Mares carry the M9s internally, but that seems suspect to me given the M9s large size and weight. (Something like eight and a half meters tall and nine and a half tonnes or so in weight. Even on hands and knees, they've got a lot of vertical height.)

Also, I'm well aware of the unsuitability of heavly loaded heavy lift helicopters for combat. However, that doesn't stop them from mounting light defensive armament in real life. I don't think the side mounted miniguns described in the novels are an unreasonable feature.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Tue 29 Sep 2009 - 23:42

Just continuing on a bit with the last statement I made in my above post... I think I already mentioned this, but it seems to me that the TDD-1s helicopter assets have a pretty big capability gap. Canonically, TDD-1 carries two types of helicopters, RAH-66 Commanches (why these exist when passive stealth was supposedly largely killed by the development of active camouflage in the FMP universe, don't ask me) and MH-67 Pave Mares. Now, the Pave Mare seems to me like an excellent platform for some applications, but the fact remains, it's a fairly large and heavy helicopter. After all, it needs to be able to transport a nine and a half ton payload a considerable distance, and if it was in fact originally developed for the older second gen Arm Slaves, then it's payload carrying capability might even be considerably higher then that. In fact, I wouldn't consider a maximum payload of 30,000+ pounds out of the question for such a helicopter. Those things are big.

Now, maybe this is just my inexperience with helicopter operations showing, but doesn't it seem like such a large helicopter might not be very suitable for a lot of missions? Particularly the one's carried out by the TDD-1s PRT? (Note: PRT stands for Primary Response Team, and are essentially the TDD-1s infantry complement. The Arm Slaves are part of the SRT, or Special Response Team.)

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by LoC978 on Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 5:37

*shrug* all I've really seen 'em used for is dropping off/picking up ASes or troops. 'bout the only real reasons to use a smaller helicopter for those things (ie Black Hawk over Chinook IRL) are
1- the smaller helicopter is a somewhat harder target for handheld rocketry (when hovering or grounded, anyway) and
2- the smaller helicopters are cheaper not quite as ridiculously expensive and more widely available.

larger, more powerful helicopters tend to be faster, tougher, more maneuverable, and far more capable for hauling a load. If Mithril had tight budget constraints, there'd be good reason. As they are, the only helicopters they need are 1-heavy mover and 2-recon/gunship. no need for a crossover/multirole chopper in there. if they need mobile C&C, they can deploy AWACS... which tend to be high-flying fixed-wing aircraft.
their layout makes perfect sense to me.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 13:09

In a clearly AU piece of FMP fanfiction that I wrote in the past, I actually had the De Danaan operating a combination of Pave Mares and Blackhawk variants rather then the canon Pave Mare/Commanche combination (I guess I felt the clearly AU nature of said fanfic allowed me some liberty with those sorts of details). I guess as I saw it a Blackhawk variant equipped with external stores stations and proper sensors could do the scout/attack mission just fine and would have a useful personnel transport capability as well. Plus longer range, which could be useful for operations that required flying far inland.

But then, I suppose the De Danaan's lack of personnel transport capability is partly an artificial construction on my part. Much as I may think the MH-67 should be a skycrane type design, it's canon that they carry Arm Slaves internally and can act as troop transports at the same time.

(Returning to that subject for a moment -it occurs to me that a M9 flat on it's back or belly wouldn't have a lot of vertical height and could fit into a helicopter's cabin if the cabin were long enough (say a bit over thirty feet). The problem would be getting the thing on and off quickly in that position. Trying to have the AS get itself into such a place and position under it's own power strikes me as a recipe for a damaged transport helicopter.)

It also occurs to me though that the De Danaan's Commanches might not have been present in the original novels, though I can't verify that without my copies of the first three novels (they're at home, I'm in residence). I'm pretty sure the Pave Mares took an observation platform sort of role on more then one ocassion in the later novels though. Personally, I think the addition of a smaller helicopter for the scout/attack role in the anime made a lot of sense, even if I don't entirely agree with the model that was chosen.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 13:24

The Commanche was designed more to be a scout chopper than an attack chopper - it's hard to make something stealthy when it has large amount of armament hanging off it. Razz

It's possible the Commanches fill that roll in the FMP universe and the passive stealth may have been augmented with active systems. They check the area to ensure it's safe for the MH-67s to operate.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by LoC978 on Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 14:12

regarding the Comanche: would've made one helluva replacement for the Kiowa.

also, for stealth purposes... as far as I know, active camouflage does little to cover up sound... and anyone who has been around 'em will tell you that Black Hawks' rotors are effing loud (you can hear 'em coming from several miles out). That was the beauty of the RAH-66 prototype. Not only did it have a radar signature the size of a small bird, it made about as much noise as that bird.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 15:04

In some respects, the Commanche's low noise signature seems like a more useful feature then it's radar-related stealth features, considering that helicopters seem to tend to operate at low altitude anyway. I have serious doubts that the Commanche in it's real world form would exist in the FMP universe though. After all, if ECS equipped B-1s were built instead of the B-2, why would the Commanche project have kept it's passive stealth features?

Also, I was under the impression that the noise signature of existing helicopters could be reduced significantly through the installation of modified rotor blades. Am I wrong on that?

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 15:22

Modified rotor blades would help, but the RH-66 program did incorporate a number of noise-reduction systems (in addition to blades) which holistically provided a significantly reduced noise signature.

I expect the main reason the RH-66 was cancelled was that UAVs worked as well (if not better) and they're cheaper to operate and cheaper to lose. The same probably applies to the FMP universe.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by LoC978 on Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 15:47

true. makes you feel kinda sorry for adrenaline-junkie combat pilots:

or for a UAV reference:
"...and if you're stuck in UAVs, then my advice to you is to drink the fuckin' bottle, man. There's nothin' left to do.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 18:52

It seems to me that the issues here may have gotten a bit muddied, especially now that I've gone and introduced more then one, so I thought perhaps I'd try to reiterate things and break them down. There's really two seperate issues that have been discussed in this thread.

1) The general configuration of the MH-67 Pave Mare heavy helicopter as well as how it loads, unloads, and carries Arm Slaves. As noted, I think external carriage with a Skycrane design is the most practical approach to this problem, but I'm reluctant to go against canon, where the helicopters are clearly described as carrying Arm Slaves internally, hence why I've been trying to evaluate the feasability of that method of carriage, particularly with regards to ease of embarking and disembarking (which is a pretty big issue).

2) The composition of the De Danaan's air wing and what roles the various aircraft are responsible for. This is actually part of a larger issue regarding exactly what assets the De Danaan carries to support Mithril's operations. In the novels the De Danaan carries Harriers and Pave Mares, in the anime there are also Commanches. On this issue I have a bit more leeway, since I think the Commanches might be anime only (it can be easier to excuse things when the source material itself isn't entirely consistent) and the time period of one of my fanfic ideas allows tweaking 'in light of operational experience.' I'm still a bit reluctant to go against canon too heavily though, even if I think the canon arrangement leaves a capability gap.

I hope I'm not repeating myself too much...

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Wileama on Sat 3 Oct 2009 - 22:31

\\looks at thread
\\Cracks hands

We have a lot to cover. You're going to want to take notes, there will be a test on this later....

@ElfenMagix wrote:What you want and need are two different things. A super-flit helicopter with the ability to defend itself does not exist, nor can it.
@Tommygunner70 wrote:Transport helicopters are sitting ducks when they land, load up or take off. This is mainly because they are built to be powerful and not to be agile as a combat helicopter.
There are varying degree's of defense. Now a true super lift helicopter should have a single pound that doesn't either bear a load, or produce lift. That's one of the reasons the USA military doesn't own many super lift helicopters. We prefer helicopters that can defend themselves. When it comes to transport helicopters mainly we're looking at hot LZ. Does the aircraft have enough fire power to suppress hostile infantry/light vehicles. There are several heavy lift aircraft capable of that kind of defense, like for example the MH-53 Pavelow. [PAVELOW LEADS THE WAY!]

Gunship helicopters on the other hand are capable of dealing with armor, light triple A, and other helicopters. Helicopters do not fight fixed wing aircraft, they run away from fixed wings. So right there you have a reason for the DD to carry Commanches. It's always nice to have somebody on call nearby, who you can open a larger can of whoop ass then you. Transport helicopters are no exception to this doctrine. When the DD's Pave Mares are coming into a hot LZ they will no doubt prefer seeing some Commanches soften things up first. Those same Commanches can then work with the ground units to provide a combined arms force. You don't bring just one tool to build a house. The same is true when you blow the house up. The Commanches will be able to provide valueable close air support, and recon for the guys on the ground.

@LoC978 wrote:also, for stealth purposes... as far as I know, active camouflage does little to cover up sound... and anyone who has been around 'em will tell you that Black Hawks' rotors are effing loud
You've never heard a CV-22. They make Pave Hawks, the USAF version of the H-60, sound quite. I tell the difference between the two on the flight line by whether or not I can feel the vibrations in my chest...

@Piero wrote:RAH-66 Commanches (why these exist when passive stealth was supposedly largely killed by the development of active camouflage in the FMP universe, don't ask me)
As I recall the Commanches in the anime where equipped with ECS to makes it invisible. Maybes it's actually an aging platform at that point which has been upgraded with a more advanced gear?

@LoC978 wrote:'bout the only real reasons to use a smaller helicopter for those things: ...
Actually a smaller helicopter can also get into a smaller space. The first search, and rescue mission the V-22 preformed was from my unit. They took the aircraft, and went looking for a small plane crash. They found it, and hand to call in a MH-60, because the landing zone was too small for the CV-22. That said there are also a couple reasons not to use smaller helicopters. Smaller aircraft mean smaller fuel tanks, and thus shorter range. Smaller aircraft means smaller power plants. Which translates into not climbing over those tall mountains in Afghanistan, less power to lift armor plates, and less space for redundant systems. So while the Pave Mares might feel a little empty hauling just a single squad of troops, there is hardly a gap in the capabilities of the DD's air wing.

So in answer to question number 2, I think what the anime shows makes complete, and total sense. You have helicopter transports, helicopter gunships, and fighters. I would also add a few support fixed wing aircraft to that list. A single fixed wing transport, some AWACS, and some other multiroll bombers. If your really interested in that side of it take a look at an actually carries air wing, and use that as your starting point. Some things you'll likely cut, like anti-submarines aircraft.

Right so one to the original question. The M-9 has been stored in a container hauled by a 14 wheeler. At the same time the Pave Mare doesn't look as long, but it does look taller. Maybe not two stories tall, but definitely more then one. So I say it'll fit inside, but without much room to spare. Now I like the cargo container thing. Why? As I recall the CH-54 could mount a cargo container. The military would build hospitals, headquarters, and the like into said containers. I'm going to go out on a limb here. Look at the photos of the Pave Mare. Notice how the body seems to be composed of two distinct sections? One for the cockpit, and transmission. Then another for the cargo section? Maybe the cargo bay is just a pod that can be swapped out to provide different mission capabilities? A general purpose bay carries troops, wound, and weapons. Another bay is designed solely to carry Armor Slaves. However in a pinch you can still carry regular forces. That doesn't seem to contradict anything we know about it. In my opinion it makes sense. It isn't necessary to how my method works, but it would make sense. What do you lot think?

So how should we load an M-9 into a MH-67? I've heard some good ideas, and some bad. However everyone seems to be forgetting on key fact about Armor Slaves in general. It has hands. You don't need swing arms, claw arms, or something like that. All you need is a cable, and harness/magnet/connector/whatever. Sling loading an Armor slave aught to be stupid easy. Lower the cable, and have the M-9 secure said line. Stupid easy. That said, sling loading isn't what we're after. It doesn't seem to be how it's done canonically. What's more it is more dangerous, and less fuel efficient to sling load anything to a helicopter. Much less a nine ton giant robot. For the record nine tons sounds light, but at the same time material engineering has probably seen some amazing advances, so we'll gloss over it.

Okay so how do you actually go about getting an M-9 inside a Pave Mare? First the entire bottom of the cargo section opens up. A simple bar is lowered from the front. The M-9 grabs the bar. Then it leans forward, and lifts one leg into a mount. Then the second leg is raised into a mount. The bar is raised, and the bottom of the cargo section is buttoned up. Additional mounts can now be attached easily. Connections can also be made to provide various forms of power, fluids, and information the M-9 might need. To deploy the M-9 you can open the bottom door, and just release all the mounts. Slower methods like a rear facing door to cut down on wear could be employed for when you aren't being shot at. Not to mention if things every get really sticky the M-9 can just grab the bar, and be hauled away. It's fast, simple, versatile, and easily maintained.

Any Questions?

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Sat 3 Oct 2009 - 23:55

Not going to argue with you about a scout/gunship helicopter being useful, it's only the airframe chosen that's really an issue for me. An ECS equipped Apache would have more teeth and (relatively) heavier armour. (Plus I still wonder if something like a Blackhawk variant that could do light transport missions in addition to scout and attack might not have its advantages, though of course, it would have its disadvantages too).

I think the shape of the cargo area is a bit off for a cargo container, but considering that the MH-67s in the anime don't seem to have a good spot for the miniguns the novel versions carry, maybe I shouldn't be sweating the little details. And a sort of swappable container system a la CH-54 was more or less what I meant when I was referring to 'mission modules.' I personally think that a lot of weight could be saved if the AS was attached directly to the airframe without a container, but canon does go for internal carriage, so...

BTW, I don't know if it used cables, but I do remember a Pave Mare transmitting a visual feed to the Arm Slave in it's cargo bay as it approached a LZ in the novel Approaching Nick of Time.

I've often felt the Arm Slaves are a bit on the light side for their size and armour level myself, but I'm pretty sure the M9 is canonically supposed to weight about nine and a half tons. The older model Arm Slaves are considerably heavier though, the Savage is 12.5 tons and the Mistral II is supposed to be like 14 or something. Second and Third generation Arm Slaves are pretty different though. Second gens use a gas turbine and hydraulics, with artificial muscles for things that require precise movement. Third gens have a Palladium Reactor and use artifical muscles exclusively for their drive systems. They're lighter, quieter, and more agile. Supposedly the artificial muscles themselves are pretty tough, too, so on the third gens, the artificial muscles themselves are a sort of armour, although personally I wouldn't be overly keen to sacrifice armour plating for them. Having your drive system get missed up is not fun.

As for the De Danaan -I think it's important to remember it's a sub (albeit a collosal one) so space for vehicles and personnel is limited. Plus, Mithril specialises is a small organisation specialising in surgical strikes and such rather then all out warfare. That being said, I keep thinking it would be a good idea to carry some motorised transport of some sort for the foot soldiers, even it it's rarely used. Some land rovers or something at the very least would be useful.

I think the De Danaan would have issues with fixed wing operations. I figure any fixed wing support probably generally comes from Merida island (we know Mithril operates some C-17s there). As for airborne AWACS and ASW capabilities, they might be useful, but seem a bit iffy given the sub's intended role. It's essentially a mobile base of operations for commando units, after all.

Thanks for the help, btw.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Wileama on Tue 6 Oct 2009 - 6:14

@Piero wrote:Not going to argue with you about a scout/gunship helicopter being useful, it's only the airframe chosen that's really an issue for me.
Yeah, but the Commanche is newer, and sexier then the Apache. That's probably why they drew it that way. The sleek lines of the Commanche are more in line with the rest of Mithrals forces then the Apache. Honestly I'm surprised there isn't just another all new airframe in its place.

@Piero wrote:BTW, I don't know if it used cables, but I do remember a Pave Mare transmitting a visual feed to the Arm Slave in it's cargo bay as it approached a LZ in the novel Approaching Nick of Time.
modern military aircraft do some pretty crazy cool information sharing. I wont say more then that. That is 100% doable wireless, or not. In my opinion it make sense to hook the two up to share electrical power. The M9 must have a limited amount of fuel right? So why idle the M9, and run off the helicopters power source? If nothing else information could be shared though an induction coil. That would be cool, and simple

@Piero wrote:As for the De Danaan -I think it's important to remember it's a sub (albeit a collosal one) so space for vehicles and personnel is limited.
I totally agree. The air wing definitely wont be as large as that of a carrier. It's also one more reason to keep the number of airframes down. Aircraft need spare parts. Spare parts take up space. If you have a few Pave Hawks in addition to your Pave Mares your going to have a larger number of spare parts then if you just had the same number of one aircraft. There are some certain parts that you don't frequently need, but are quite large. Gearboxes, engines, things of that nature. If you have just one airframe you can make do with fewer of these then if you need to supply parts like this to two different airframes.

Okay quick tangent. First off it the De Danaan where to have H-60's they would be Pave hawks, or Sea Hawks not Black Hawks. Second I really do like the Pave Mares' name. Why? It's accurate that's why. Right now the heavy lift helicopter for the Navy is the Sea Stallion. The Air Force version of that aircraft is the Pave Low. As I've already mention our H-60's are Pave Hawks. Why, because the more advanced avionics on board allow them to Pave the way. So the next helicopter to come after the Stallion is a Mare, while Pave lets you know it's all tricked out. It's a legit name.

@Piero wrote:That being said, I keep thinking it would be a good idea to carry some motorised transport of some sort for the foot soldiers, even it it's rarely used.
Four wheelers would be another good choice. For the covert stuff it seems like a lot of the time land assets, and agents can also be brought into play. So while the the De Danaan doesn't need to provide everything.

@Piero wrote:I think the De Danaan would have issues with fixed wing operations.
I totally forgot how short that runway was. Anything that operates from the DD will need VTOL capabilities. That really does cut down on what you can operate. So VTOL fighters are about it for fixed wing.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Tue 6 Oct 2009 - 23:34

Well, the De Danaan has two types of airframes in the novels, Pave Mares and Super Harriers. The anime added Commanches (unless they were in the novel and I've forgotten them). The Whateverhawks would be larger then Commanches, but I think the multirole functionality of the airframe would give them some merit. Kind of a matter of 'okay, they take up more deck space, but they also do a lot more.' I could see such a helicopter being a real workhorse. Though I guess one could argue they don't necessarily do the scout/attack mission as well as a smaller airframe. (Counter argument to that is that with a couple door gunners they've got more eyes. Counter-counter argument is that more people aboard means more people in danger in the event of a shoot down or accident.)

As far as name goes, well, there's a reason I said 'Black Hawk variants.' Although it seems the designation for MH-60s varies by service. In the army they're Blackhawks, in the Navy they're Seahawks (though Knighhawk was proposed due to them being acquired to replace Sea Knight helicopters) and of course the Air Force calls them Pave Hawks. Pave Hawk would be consistent with Pave Mare, but then readers might assume they were supposed to have the exact same features as Air Force Pave Hawks, and given the different requirements the De Danaan's helicopters would have that might not be the case. Actually to be honest, aside from the fact that subbing Whateverhawks for Commanches seems like a big violation of canon (as where subbing Apaches doesn't so much) the whole issue of how to name them and let people know that they've got different capabilities from real life MH-60s is big mark against the idea.

On the Commanche issue, FMP seems to like to include real world hardware alongside the fictional Arm Slaves, even with Mithril. They've got C-17s based on Merida Island.

Maintenance wise I've wondered if perhaps the De Danaan carries a fairly small maintenance crew for fairly minor work and does the major overhauls back at Merida. It seems to me that that sub goes back home fairly frequently. (It's also pretty fast... 50 knots top speed, thanks partly to Black Technology, although that's top speed and not cruising speed.) Seriously speaking though, it makes some sense for it to return home sometimes, the forces it deploys need training areas, after all.

Also, just on an earlier issue -I actually had considered the idea that an Arm Slave could sort of climb aboard itself due to humanoid shape, my main concern is just whether the Pave Mare would actually be durable enough to withstand that process (ground pressure for one thing, just imagine how much pressure you'd but on the cabin floor if you had it crawl in on hands and knees, and you'd better hope the pilot doesn't accidentally make a bad movement given how strong an AS' limbs are). Maybe I'm thinking too much though. Also, regarding the bar thing, I do remember an AS in Approaching Nick of Time grabbing onto a Pave Mare's 'emergency hook' during an extraction. Said extraction kind of involved getting critical personnel out of a rather bad situation, so it obviously wasn't a standard maneuver.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by LoC978 on Wed 7 Oct 2009 - 0:04

on including Whateverhawks
I really like that name, by the way. But then, I was usually at friendly odds with Black Hawk mechanics when I was still in.

regardless of figuring out what to call them and what mods would be made to them, I still maintain that they're a bad idea for a ship like the De Danaan, who already has two specialized airframes filling the roles that a Whateverhawk can fill.

1)transport- simple answer: the Pave Mare is better at it.
2)recon- simple answer: the Comanche is better at it. So are satellites, and so are Arm Slaves.
3)gunship- between the Harriers, Comanches, Arm Slaves, and the De Danaan herself, there's really no need for such a marginal increase in firepower, especially in such a fragile, easy-to-hit target as a Whateverhawk. They'd be a big, unnecessary risk to personnel.

The only argument yet presented in their favor that I see as having any merit is that they're marginally smaller than the Pave Mare, and so they might be able to be able to drop things a little closer to an objective in cluttered terrain.

now if you're talking about something that may be stationed on a real carrier, or at a permanent base... then they might actually be warranted.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Wileama on Wed 7 Oct 2009 - 5:42

Whateverhawks, awesome!

Again I agree with LoC. There is no good reason for a vessel like the DD to clutter it's air wing with another transport. Also realize ever H-60 you add is one less spot for a Pave Mare, which is one less AS you can air deliver. AS seem like the keystone of the DD's assault force. That, and H-60's in the place of commanches seems like an even more horrible idea. Commanches are better scouts, and gunships then the H-60. All you get to off set that is more transportation that isn't on par with the Pave Mare.

Certainly neither LoC, or I are in a place to actually make you change your story. Seriously though both of us have experience with the actually military helicopter world, and are telling you it's not a bright idea.

Now on the matter of maintenance. Yes the DD will go back to base on a semi-regular basis. All ships have to. You'll run into cases where individual aircraft are swapped out during a tour at sea. You'll see aircraft fly to a supply point to exchange broken parts for working ones. There is aircraft maintenance that simple will have to be done at home port, and no where else. I know that. That said my earlier statement about parts still holds entirely true. Gearboxes, engines, and blades are items you will have to be able to change in the field. These are not parts that are immune to bullets. If you can't do that kind of maintenance on board the DD, the ships will be practically tied to her home port. At which point a permanent base makes sense.

As for names. Each service has real differences in what they require of the H-60. So each service has it's own variant. While they have a lot in common they are different aircraft. As for the matter of letting your readers know they aren't the same as Air Force versions. Well two things. First 95% of your readers wont know what a Pave Hawk is. Second don't underestimate your readers. One of the reasons I respect anime is they aren't afraid to leave something unsaid, and let me figure it out. In Full Metal Panic the moment I saw a Commanche turn on ECS, I knew it wasn't the same as what the western powers had. I assume the same is true for the C-17s. I've never been told that though.

Finally back to the original topic. Emergency hook might be the cargo hook. When something gets sling loaded it a helicopter there has to be a way to attach it. That's the cargo hook. Which also happens to be at the center of gravity. So the Pave Mare's cargo hook aught to be able to bear the load of an armor slave, and not mess up the balance. Crawling in though the rear hatch makes some sense. Like you said though I would worry about the floor of the cabin. Well actually...

Okay think about this. The M9 lays down, on it's back. Then reaches over towards the Pave Mare. It grabs a bar, hand holds whatever. It brings it arms back down to it's sides, and whatever it's grabbed is hauled back into the cabin. The M9 will be dragged into the cabin which just so happens to be littered with rollers. Getting it into mounts might be a bit more difficult, but very doable. That would be even simpler then my previous method, seeing as you don't need to open the entire floor of the cabin. A larger LZ would be required, but yeah. What do you think?

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Wed 7 Oct 2009 - 14:48

The 160th SOAR uses Blackhawks as gunships, which is kind of where I got the idea, but maybe they just do it because they already operate Blackhawks in other roles and doing so allows them to limit the number of aircraft types they have to maintain. There was also the recon/attack helicopter variant of the Blackhawk that was offered to the Australians, but they went with the Eurocopter Tiger instead. LOC got a kick out of that one when I showed him a picture of it in the chat.

Just wanted to point with the names that I actually was referring to MH-60s specifically... Army MH-60Ls and Navy MH-60S' keep the same designations as the other 'hawk variants in those respective services. And honestly, I do think name recognition is important. Let's just face it, a lot of readers recognise the Apache as an attack helicopter, but they're unlikely to see a Blackhawk as such. So it's far more obvious to the reader that I'm writing a big damn gunship moment if the helicopter that shows up to help out is an Apache rather then some sort of weird 'hawk variant.

As far as what you said on the loading method, it actually makes a fair bit of sense logically speaking. It seems pretty awkward though. In all honesty I'm starting to think maybe I just ought to ignore the airframe strength issue and takes cues from canon. In which case, the things are often deployed by dropping them out the bottom of the cargo hold. And then, as to how to get them in and out while aboard the TDD-1, well -can you think of a better method then having them crawl on and off using the rear ramp? Recovery via hoist might be nice as an alternative to ramp use when in the field though. Though I'm not sure that would actually work that well.

Sorry if I'm going on too long.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 7 Oct 2009 - 15:01

@Piero wrote:The 160th SOAR uses Blackhawks as gunships, which is kind of where I got the idea, but maybe they just do it because they already operate Blackhawks in other roles and doing so allows them to limit the number of aircraft types they have to maintain.

They use them because they are inserting and recovering Special Forces units, often in hot areas, and may not have the luxury of "traditional" gunship support. Therefore, the weapons are carried for suppression of enemy assets and not for active hunting, as is the case of a true "attack" helicopter like the Cobra or Apache.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Wileama on Fri 9 Oct 2009 - 15:06

//Googles the AH-60

That's just whacky! Yeah you can definitely tell that is a stop gap/cost cutting/crazy measure. The H-60 is not a good platform to build a gunship on. Anyway use the sixty, or don't. I've said all I really have to. The name was just me pumping up the Air Force.

As for the loading. Awkward is the word I would use. Tricky, maybe. I do get the gist of what your saying though. It did occur to me that if you attached a single line to the chassis, similar to sling loading, would be simpler. Still everything has it's trade offs. Loading by an aft hatch would be a more involved process. It is mechanically simpler, and doesn't weaken the cabin floor. Where as the bottom loading method is simpler. However it doesn't mesh well with carrying troops in the same bay.

Now if I where doing it on the TDD-1 that's a bit trickier. Loading it from the underside would be a pain. There just doesn't seem like there is enough space normally. You would probably have to jack the helicopter off the deck. Time consuming, and complicated. So it's going to be aft loading. The only thing I can think of to speed that up would be something like: This, or this. Problem is those look like they take up a ton of deck space. Deck space that the De Danaan doesn't have to spare. Still at the same time I would definitely want something for the Armor Slave to roll on. So not to damage the floor, or AS.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Fri 16 Oct 2009 - 2:25

As a related note on the attack helo issue, do you guys think it would make more sense for Mithril attack helos to favour lasers or millimetre wave radar for missile guidance? I was generally under the impression millimetre wave radar was an advantageous system (fire and forget has definite advantages when you have to worry about avoiding retaliatory fire), but I notice the Russian Mi-28N has a millimetre wave radar like the AH-64D yet doesn't mount a missile that uses that as a guidance system (although it strikes me that the AT-15 Spriggan could probably be adapted for the role). In fact it uses a radio SACLOS system, which aside from needing the gunner to sight the target for the missile after firing also strikes me as vulnerable to jamming. I kind of wonder if that might just be a matter of the Mi-28N inheriting the Mi-28A's armament suite though. (The Mi-28N is basically a Mi-28 with enhanced sensors for use at night and in bad weather. And supposedly it really is pretty well equipped in that department.)

It also seems to me that millimetre wave radar might give away the attack helicopter's presence, which I suppose might give an edge to laser systems. Although I'm under the impression there are laser warning systems out there these days too. Though at least in that case you're only setting of a warning system on the target being painted, not everybody in the area who happens to have a radar warning receiver.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 16 Oct 2009 - 9:48

I'd probably go with radar since you don't have ground troops able to illuminate a target for the choppers to allow them to pop-up, fire, and then duck back down behind cover.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by LoC978 on Fri 16 Oct 2009 - 15:34

laser on the chopper plus a laser on the ordinance with a computer to sync the two of 'em. that's how we tend to do things nowadays. Expensive, but precise.
I'm unsure whether Mithril would do the same or not.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 16 Oct 2009 - 15:46

Money does not appear to be an issue for Mithril.

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Fri 16 Oct 2009 - 23:09

It isn't and it is. In the FMP universe it was formed in the aftermath of the Gulf War (which turned into a much larger mess then it did in real life). It's essentially a covert organisation funded by several Western governments. My impression is that they're indirectly answerable to said governments due to how much of their funding comes from those governments. So when a character says "We're like a secret army of justice to defend the world... something like that"... take it with a grain of salt.

I'd actually thought because of this that Mithril shouldn't use exclusively American aircraft, but I'm having difficulty thinking of a western attack helo design which can clearly beat either the Apache or the Commanche. The Tiger doesn't strike me as being it.

So anyhow, I have one opinion going for millimetre wave radar guided hellfires and one for laser guided hellfires...

As a note, Mithril does use infantry, so the ability of troops to designate a target by laser would actually be a point in favour of laser guidance. I'm not sure if that's enough to tip the balance though, as I'm not entirely sure how to weight the trade offs that were already being made.

Also, just wanted to say something more on the Mi-28N, as it's a potential adversary in my fanfic (though then again it might be too cutting edge to show up in the hands of the types of foes Mithril tends to face).

Basically, I'm wondering if the Mi-28N's milli wave radar might be used for more then just detection and tracking. The AT-9 missile it uses is described as a SACLOS guided missile that requires the gunner to keep crosshairs on the target, with the missile receiving course updates via radio as it goes. However, it seems to me that it should be able to function as long as the launch platform continues to send it radio updates. So as long as there's something that can translate the radar's target tracking info into course corrections for the missile, there's no real reason the milli-wave radar shouldn't be able to be used for target engagement, right?

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Piero on Mon 19 Oct 2009 - 0:17

For some reason after getting a chance to read up on transport planes and helicopters I decided to do up some rough specs for the H-67 series. Donít ask me why I did it, my mind does these things sometimesÖ

There are a few considerations that governed the specifications:

One, the Pave Mare has demonstrated a very impressive flight range. Impressive as in Ďone of these machines can transport a fully equipped third generation AS two thousand kilometers from base and then bring it home without needing to refuelí impressive. Because this is a ridiculously long range for a shipboard helicopter, I think it makes sense for the MH/CH-67 to have been designed with much heavier payloads then a third generation AS in mind, thus explaining why when it downloads it can fly such impressive distances. Iím thinking of aiming for a maximum payload at least comparable to that of a real world C-130 Hercules (so about 45,000 pounds).

Secondly, these helicopters seem to be capable of regular shipboard ops. For this reason, I think they should be comparable in size to the real world Super Stallion, though
probably with a heavier maximum take off weight. They would also probably be taller due to the need for increase internal volume.

In one of the FMP novels, a modified CH-53 is used to sling load a second generation M6A3 arm slave over significant distances. This suggests that there are CH-53 variants that benefit from the improved turbine engine technology of the FMP universe. For this reason Iím thinking it again makes sense for the CH/MH-67 to have aimed to do things it would be impossible for the CH-53 to do. Like carry very large and heavy payloads internally. As a note, the CH-53 in question later transported a third generation AS internally, but this strikes me as a bit out there considering the relatively low cabin height of the CH-53 in the real world. The same issue crops up with the use of Mi-26 Halos as AS transports in one of the other novels, their cabin height is only 3.2 meters.

So my feeling is that the MH/CH-67 was designed as a next generation heavy lift helicopter, probably to fill the requirements of multiple US services, with the design ending up being used by Mithril as well. With the emphasis on internal carriage, I think it makes sense for it to have been designed with tracked and wheeled vehicles as well as Arm Slaves in mind. Fourty five thousands pounds would allow for carriage of M113s and LAV-25s as alternative payloads. Iíd kind of have liked to have included the Bradley there too, but itís kind of heavy, even on the pre A2 versions.

Part of me hat thought that the Pave Mare really ought to use a contra rotating main rotor for size and power efficiency, but I donít remember if the novels specified a rotor configuration, so for the time being Iím working as if with a conventional main and tail set up. I do believe the novels note it as being a twin engine design, not a
triple engine like the Super Stallion. Which is a bit of a liability, but perhaps it could save weight somehow? (And given how compact the turbines used in
second generation Arm Slaves are, the Pave Mareís engines might not be overly big and heavy.)

So hereís the CH/MH-67 rough specs, with comparable specs for real world Super Stallion designs in brackets (CH-53K, with a few marked CH-53E bits for parts
where I sort of needed CH-53K data Ėdata is from various sources and may be a tad rough in some cases).

Engines: 2x12500 shp turboshafts (K: 3x7500 shp turboshafts)
Rotor: Seven blade folding (E/K: Seven blade folding)
Main Rotor Diameter: 87 feet (E/K: 79 feet)
Maximum Disc Loading: 16 pounds/ft (15 pounds/ft CH-53E, CH-53K may be heavier)
Empty Weight: 38,500 pounds (E: 33,226 pounds)
Maximum Take Off Weight: 95,066 pounds (E: 73,500 K: 84,700)
Maximum Payload: 45,000 pounds internal (K: 30,000 internal or 35,000 external (possibly heavier considering I think Iíve seen the E listed as being able to do 36,000))
Maximum Internal Fuel: 21,000 pounds (E: 15483 pounds)
Length: 107 feet (E: 99.5 feet)
Length folded: 64 feet (E: 60.5 feet)
Height: 34 feet (E: 28.3 feet)
Width (fuselage): ? (?)
Width (sponsons): N/A (?)
Cabin length: 33 feet (K: 30 feet)
Cabin height: 13.5 feet (K: 6.5 feet)
Cabin width: 14 feet (K: 9 feet)

Any thoughts? I figure some of the figures might be a bit low, particularly empty weight. The CH/MH-67 needs has a much larger internal volume and probably a very strong structure as well to support its payloads, so Iím wondering if the 38,500 pounds is a bit low even if the design used large amounts of difficult to repair composites.

BTW, width is one of the areas thatís been giving me the most trouble. Iím having trouble finding good width figures for the CH-53E/K. I do know the K model is thinner despite having a wider fuselage due to redesigned sponsons. I donít think the CH/MH-67 even is going to have Sponsons, or if it does theyíre very thin. I know theyíre considered a good thing for safety but when you have to try to cram that much internal volume into something with a reasonable shipboard footprint... (And yeah, I think it makes sense to axe the wings on the anime Pave Mares and just have the landing gears in the fuselage. Saves width.)

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

Post by Wileama on Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 0:21

You know people call me anal relative. No seriously I once spent 45 minutes organizing the discount game bin. So the idea that I would ever find someone who was deeper into that neurosis then I was pretty much nonexistent. Piero, you've broken my expectations. I'm not going to lie. I don't know those values for the aircraft I work on daily. The fact that your even considering the difference between laser, and radar to me is insane. Stop, please stop. You've covered more then enough details to make your story to be air tight. Spend the energy on say, actually writing this story.

Quick aside. The reason the Super Stallion has three engines isn't as a matter of reliability. The Super Stallion has three engines, because it was designed to lift super heavy loads. Increase reliability is a byproduct of that fact. Aircraft designers usually consider reliability to be having one more engine then you need to fly. With most helicopter that means just two. Three engines would increase reliability, true. However it would also increase the complexity of the drive train. Still give the loads the 67 carries, it must have some crazy powerful engines.

PS I'm really drunk, did you notice?

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Re: Anatomy of a Helicopter (non GSG anime related)

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