No offense to Yu Aida but.....

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No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by SPARTAN 119 on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 18:56

This in no way takes away from the greatness of GsG. Considering he did the art for a lolicon-themed hentai game, and how he makes Triela seem almost like a "reverse lolicon" in Volume 10, do any of you get the feeling he might have some more than slight lolicon tendancies?
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 19:17

I expect like any good author and artist, he writes and draws what his audience (in a general sense) is interested in.

Plus "lolicon" is such a nebulous concept.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 19:22

Its all for the fans and the money.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by LoC978 on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 20:32

bah. if he didn't have a sense of artistic integrity, he'd write some tripe similar to Naruto or Bleach.

...not that he doesn't try to draw in more fans with style-changing stunts...

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 20:50

Reverse lolicon? Where?

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by SPARTAN 119 on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 22:59

Nachtsider wrote:Reverse lolicon? Where?
By "reverse lolicon", I mean a child that is uhhh.... attracted to an adult and well, after Triela's little stunt with Hillshire in volume 10, you can make that argument.

Also, as I said in the thread title, I am saying nothing against his artistic integrity, I was just curious as why he accepted the commission to do the artwork for Bittersweet Fools, though I'm certain money was involved, but several people on this board have pointed out Aida's interest in lolis, I was wondering if he almost specializes in loli characters or something. I also suspect that it has something to do with cultural differences i.e. I'm not sure Aida's going from lolicon (or any other hentai for that matter) to mainstream would happen anywhere in the west, although anime is so different from anything in the West that it's hard to come up with a western paralell to Aida's situation. Closest thing I could think of is a guy starting off directing porn and moving on to direct mainstream movies.
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 23:29

I like how people automatically conclude from that panel in Volume 10 that Triela is attracted to Hillshire in a less than chaste manner. Honest to goodness, the picture is ambiguous enough that one can interpret it as her giving him a kiss on the cheek. As I see it, this may say more about the readers than it does Yu Aida.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 23:32

Nachtsider wrote:I like how people automatically conclude from that panel in Volume 10 that Triela is attracted to Hillshire in a less than chaste manner. Honest to goodness, the picture is ambiguous enough that one can interpret it as her giving him a kiss on the cheek. As I see it, this may say more about the readers than it does Yu Aida.

Well the readers believe Sandro and Petrushka are in a sexual relationship, so maybe the readers are all just horndogs... Smile

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 23:38

SPARTAN 119 wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:Reverse lolicon? Where?
By "reverse lolicon", I mean a child that is uhhh.... attracted to an adult and well, after Triela's little stunt with Hillshire in volume 10, you can make that argument.
What Triela did was 'Puppy Love'. Reverse lolicon is when she does such sexually-based slutty activities intended to get the guy into trouble. Similar to what Nyu does to Kouta in Elfen Lied but it was not Nyu's intent to get him into trouble.

SPARTAN 119 wrote:Also, as I said in the thread title, I am saying nothing against his artistic integrity, I was just curious as why he accepted the commission to do the artwork for Bittersweet Fools, though I'm certain money was involved, but several people on this board have pointed out Aida's interest in lolis, I was wondering if he almost specializes in loli characters or something. I also suspect that it has something to do with cultural differences i.e. I'm not sure Aida's going from lolicon (or any other hentai for that matter) to mainstream would happen anywhere in the west, although anime is so different from anything in the West that it's hard to come up with a western paralell to Aida's situation. Closest thing I could think of is a guy starting off directing porn and moving on to direct mainstream movies.

Of course there was moneys involved. But also, that series was never intended to get to the shores of the United States. Loli-laws differ from country to country, and Japan is very liberal about what they consider as perverse and what is not. The USA is more strict on this, thanks to its religious past.

But BitterSweet Fools is very much like Gunslinger Girl, and the Pre 2000 GsG story books that are out there show the art and story line connections to BitterSweet Fools.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by SPARTAN 119 on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 23:41

ElfenMagix wrote:
SPARTAN 119 wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:Reverse lolicon? Where?
By "reverse lolicon", I mean a child that is uhhh.... attracted to an adult and well, after Triela's little stunt with Hillshire in volume 10, you can make that argument.
What Triela did was 'Puppy Love'. Reverse lolicon is when she does such sexually-based slutty activities intended to get the guy into trouble. Similar to what Nyu does to Kouta in Elfen Lied but it was not Nyu's intent to get him into trouble.

SPARTAN 119 wrote:Also, as I said in the thread title, I am saying nothing against his artistic integrity, I was just curious as why he accepted the commission to do the artwork for Bittersweet Fools, though I'm certain money was involved, but several people on this board have pointed out Aida's interest in lolis, I was wondering if he almost specializes in loli characters or something. I also suspect that it has something to do with cultural differences i.e. I'm not sure Aida's going from lolicon (or any other hentai for that matter) to mainstream would happen anywhere in the west, although anime is so different from anything in the West that it's hard to come up with a western paralell to Aida's situation. Closest thing I could think of is a guy starting off directing porn and moving on to direct mainstream movies.

Of course there was moneys involved. But also, that series was never intended to get to the shores of the United States. Loli-laws differ from country to country, and Japan is very liberal about what they consider as perverse and what is not. The USA is more strict on this, thanks to its religious past.

But BitterSweet Fools is very much like Gunslinger Girl, and the Pre 2000 GsG story books that are out there show the art and story line connections to BitterSweet Fools.

Just out of curiosity (and due to the fact that I have no desire or means to procure a copy), if you can explain it quickly, what is the storyline of Bittersweet Fools, and how does it connect to GsG?
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 23:58

It was a dating game.

The only direct connection to GSG was Yu Aida was the character designer. The game did take place in Florence, Italy and the male lead was a former mafia assassin, so that might have influenced Yu setting GSG in Italy and having the cyborgs fight the mafia (in addition to terrorists and separatists).

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 0:01

Kiskaloo wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:I like how people automatically conclude from that panel in Volume 10 that Triela is attracted to Hillshire in a less than chaste manner. Honest to goodness, the picture is ambiguous enough that one can interpret it as her giving him a kiss on the cheek. As I see it, this may say more about the readers than it does Yu Aida.

Well the readers believe Sandro and Petrushka are in a sexual relationship, so maybe
the readers are all just horndogs... Smile
I agree with Nacht on this one. What Triela does in V10 is out of a true emotion how how she feels for Hillshire. Not out of wanton lust and horny desires.

As for 'Sandro and Petra...
-She has slept in his bed with little on (v6)
-he has pounced on her in the piano room after Angie died (v9)
-the other cyborgs has complained about Petra's big mouth bragging about their 'Special relationship'.
-'Sandro has a record of screwing anything female upon Agency command (v7). He would fuck a chicken if the SWA would order him too!
-Dr. Duvalier complains about 'Sandro trying to pick up girls (v6-English version), and of his history thereof.
-Petra will do anything for 'Sandro, and has stated that she loves and would do so in V7/V8.
-Sandro has grabbed on her and felt her up in public, her reaction- "Here, Now? Oh why not..."
-Those two are in a relationship more physical than what some of the other cyborgs would want with their handlers.

So... They are fucking.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 2:25

Kiskaloo wrote:Well the readers believe Sandro and Petrushka are in a sexual relationship, so maybe the readers are all just horndogs...
Maybe, but you know thats whats happening.
Elfen wrote: agree with Nacht on this one. What Triela does in V10 is out of a true emotion how how she feels for Hillshire. Not out of wanton lust and horny desires.
This sums it up perfectly.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 12:23

I still believe it is "reader bias" driven by affection for Triela (so her actions are automatically seen as "pure") and hatred for Petrushka (so her actions are automatically seen as "unpure").

But seriously, w'ever. To each their own. Smile


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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Alfisti on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 14:26

I dunno, I still don't understand the level of hate toward Petra... or well I do and I don't, because I think if you take the character in isolation she's quite a nice kid. I mean, if you take a step back and look at her good points: she's hard working, dedicated, friendly and skilled...

I'm going to be playing Devil's Advocate here for a minute, but bear with me.

I think some of the issue with Petra lies in that Yu didn't handler her introduction particularly well. Think about it: here's GSG, it's been romping along for five volumes, we now know the original cast well and are horribly attached to Triela (me included... she's still my favorite character). Suddenly, BAM! New character, with a whole volume devoted to her. But wait, she's also close to her handler (who happens to also be a man-slut Razz) and she's a Gen2, which means that she's here to replace the characters we know and love.

Now here's the kicker: the first thing she does upon arriving on the scene is hit it off with Claes... and being close friends with Claes has traditionally been Triela's position. So now, not only is Petra here to replace the Gen1's but she's walking all over the fan-favorite's turf.

Throw in a few less-than-modest outfits, her afore-mentioned overly close (and seemingly so far quite superficial) relationship with her handler, some bitchy words from the rest of the Gen2's that she associates with and well.... recipie for character-integration disaster.


Anyway, there's the third-party view, but as Kisk said: each to their own.

Personally, I'm going to go back to Triela fan-boying now =P
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Piero on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 15:40

I largely gave up on the Petrushka debate long ago because I'm of the opinion that some parts of the fanbase are going to believe what they want to believe regardless of what canon actually indicates. I just wish her hatedom would stop a) treating their opinions as fact rather then opinion, since their iirrefutable proof' can easily be intepreted in other ways by a relatively impartial observer, and b) would stop taking every available opportunity to bitch about it. The sheer amount of stuff that has been hijacked by Petra-bashing (both here and elsewhere) has gotten more then just slightly annoying.

As I've stated before, I think it's pretty likely that Yu introduced Allesandro and Petra because he wanted to try something different after working with his earlier concepts for so long. Not exactly hard to imagine when someone's been working on the same manga series for several years. And it would explain why she got a lot of focus early on then started to become more of a 'just another part of the cast' character later on. And to be fair Yu wasn't even concentrating exclusively on Petra for volumes six to eight -she didn't appear til partway through volume six and she was actually playing supporting roles to Claes and Triela in volume seven.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Robert Frazer on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 15:41

Considering that GSG is still being published today in French & Italian and, let's not forget, original content is still being commissioned in Japan even years after she first appeared, I don't think that Petrushka's arrival was nearly so trauamatic and detrimental to the comic as certain English-speakers try to make out. While it's difficult to separate the effects of reader reactions from ADV's contemporary cutback of its manga division, it seems to me that an especially noisy Petrushka hate-club derailed publication here through sheer volume, whereas everyone else in other territories was quite happy to enjoy the story.

Incidentally, I find it curious that people find a consensual relationship (that's conducted almost entirely off-panel) between two people both over the age of consent to be beyond the pale of obscenity, whereas Triela's had nipple-slips, appeared undressed in the recovery room and even received a fully nude shower scene and they haven't batted an affronted eyelid.

Edit: I echo Piero in everything. I really don't like harsh language like in my previous paragraph - we're all here because we enjoy and take pleasure from a story, not because of trauma and nasty backbiting - but honestly, the relentless Petra-bashing really does get wearing.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 16:12

The trick is to take it as a joke and run with it.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 16:20

Nachtsider wrote:The trick is to take it as a joke and run with it.

Some jokes just aren't funny.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by rusty-spring on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 16:21

I try to make it an issue not to get involved in any Petra related debate because it's ultimately worthless, but I will say this:

Change is a good thing, not bad. If nothing ever changed the world would be one boring ass place. So before anyone thinks about attacking anyone else based on their personal opinions remember that just cause your opinions differ, that doesn't make them truth. Let's not march around as if they are.

This is a common sense blanket statement and not personal towards anyone on this forum. I just really get sick of some of the petty squabbling I see on a majority of forums.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 22:24

My problem with Petra is not Petra. It is of her handler Allessandro and how he uses her for his personal desires and wishes, and knowing that as a programmed unit to obey him no matter what, and to defend his ass no matter what, he's basically given full rights to do as he pleases with her, and do so accordingly.

Think about Allessandro and not Petra. He is a 'spy' (for a lack of a better word) trained to infiltrate skirts and panties to get the job done. Just like his mentor did to him, he does to Petra but he does so and takes pleasure out of it. There is no professionalism in his actions what so ever.

Petra under another handler would be a much better character for the series. I would dare say that she would be a good replacement for Marco if he lost Angie earlier. There we would have a very interesting fratello team for the series.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Robert Frazer on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 23:17

My problem with Petra is not Petra. It is of her handler Allessandro and how he uses her for his personal desires and wishes, and knowing that as a programmed unit to obey him no matter what, and to defend his ass no matter what, he's basically given full rights to do as he pleases with her, and do so accordingly.

This is another attitude that I can't agree with, and I'm sorry, Elfen, but to echo Piero again it honestly seems to come from a bloody-minded determination to think badly of the character rather than what the managa actually tells you about him. It explicitly and unambiguously relates in the conditioning sequence of Vol. 8 that Petrushka's love is personal and not a product of the conditioning. Half the point of the Gen2s is to give them milder conditioning and freer expression and thought, beyond certain red lines (kill who we tell you to, don't turn traitor). Alessandro avoided going further with Petrushka, physically pushing her away her obvious interest on multiple occasions (the first visit to his apartment, the rooftop battle, saying outright that he hated redheads), precisely because he feared that she was being driven by the conditioning rather than a willingness to accept him. It took her something as dramatic and extreme as horking her guts up on the floor of his apartment to convince him otherwise...!

For someone who's aware that Petrushka will do anything, Alessandro's also not so keen to take advantage of it. For instance, when Alessandro's leaving the hospital after visiting Marco in Angelica's death arc, Petrushka mentions that she'd gladly die for Alessandro, but he responds negatively - he wouldn't thank her for being a human shield.

Really, A&P have the most equanimous relationship of all the fratelli. The younger cyborgs are unquestionably subordinate to their handlers, but Alessandro sees Petrushka as a partner, professionally as well as personally.

If you think that any sort of relationship between a figure of authority and his charge is improper and inherently corrupt, then that's a reasonable stance to take and that's fair enough - but then, to not chew out H&T for the same reason is a complete double standard.


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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 23:26

Robert Frazer wrote:
My problem with Petra is not Petra. It is of her handler Allessandro and how he uses her for his personal desires and wishes, and knowing that as a programmed unit to obey him no matter what, and to defend his ass no matter what, he's basically given full rights to do as he pleases with her, and do so accordingly.

This is another attitude that I can't agree with, and to echo Piero again it honestly seems to come from a bloody-minded determination to think badly of the character rather than what the managa actually tells you about him.

Yes Indeed

Our OC fiction universe is not the canon fiction universe and we need to remember to keep them separate. If some authors choose to write Sandro as a pedophiliac horndog in their OC universe, fine. Just please stop effectively claiming that Yu Aida has done the same in the canon universe.

Alessandro is certainly not a "model handler" in the mode of the original tranche of handlers. But then, Alessandro was chosen because he wasn't like the original handlers. As Louis noted when he and Alessandro scouted Elizabetta, the original handlers are generally not considered resounding successes because of the problems they have with their cyborgs. And two of them - Lauro and Raballo - proved to be outright failures and took their cyborgs with them (in that Elsa killed herself and Claes is now inactive).

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 0:59

While its true that Petra sucks, I think we all need to remember that these are just cartoon characters were talking about here, not real people. Little piece of advise - lighten up.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by rusty-spring on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 1:02

Danjo3 wrote:While its true that Petra sucks, I think we all need to remember that these are just cartoon characters were talking about here, not real people. Little piece of advise - lighten up.
Whenever I try to make myself sound reasonable, you go and sound even more reasonable. Damn you and your Voice of Reason.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by MadHatChemist on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 1:48

Kiskaloo wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:I like how people automatically conclude from that panel in Volume 10 that Triela is attracted to Hillshire in a less than chaste manner. Honest to goodness, the picture is ambiguous enough that one can interpret it as her giving him a kiss on the cheek. As I see it, this may say more about the readers than it does Yu Aida.

Well the readers believe Sandro and Petrushka are in a sexual relationship, so maybe the readers are all just horndogs... Smile

One thing I've always liked about GSG is that the girls are not sexualized. Heck, even with Petra and Allessandro, it is emotionless and just doing what you have to for the job.

And dislike of Allessandro for his perceived prolocivity is probably due to that emotion in readers as a reaction -- because said reader (i.e. you and I) find any sexualization of the girls (including Petra) to be just not right.
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 11:20

We discuss so little GSG on this forum now, if all we have left is just arguments about it, what's the point of continuing on. So I'm just selectively activating my "ignore post" option. Smile

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 12:05

MadHatChemist wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:I like how people automatically conclude from that panel in Volume 10 that Triela is attracted to Hillshire in a less than chaste manner. Honest to goodness, the picture is ambiguous enough that one can interpret it as her giving him a kiss on the cheek. As I see it, this may say more about the readers than it does Yu Aida.

Well the readers believe Sandro and Petrushka are in a sexual relationship, so maybe the readers are all just horndogs... Smile

One thing I've always liked about GSG is that the girls are not sexualized. Heck, even with Petra and Allessandro, it is emotionless and just doing what you have to for the job.

And dislike of Allessandro for his perceived prolocivity is probably due to that emotion in readers as a reaction -- because said reader (i.e. you and I) find any sexualization of the girls (including Petra) to be just not right.


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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 12:11

Boomer. Dude. The only girl you're guilty of sexualizing is Ferro.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 17:06

Nachtsider wrote:Boomer. Dude. The only girl you're guilty of sexualizing is Ferro.

...For now.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 17:16

boomer_gonz wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:Boomer. Dude. The only girl you're guilty of sexualizing is Ferro.

...For now.

sweat

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 18:32

Kiskaloo wrote:
Robert Frazer wrote:
My problem with Petra is not Petra. It is of her handler Allessandro and how he uses her for his personal desires and wishes, and knowing that as a programmed unit to obey him no matter what, and to defend his ass no matter what, he's basically given full rights to do as he pleases with her, and do so accordingly.

This is another attitude that I can't agree with, and to echo Piero again it honestly seems to come from a bloody-minded determination to think badly of the character rather than what the managa actually tells you about him.



Our OC fiction universe is not the canon fiction universe and we need to remember to keep them separate. If some authors choose to write Sandro as a pedophiliac horndog in their OC universe, fine. Just please stop effectively claiming that Yu Aida has done the same in the canon universe.

To you both- you read any of my fanfict created materials?
If you did, then you tell me where exactly did I have any of the Canon Characters doing it with their cyborgs. Point out the story title, chapter and line number, along with a quotation of the dialog in question.

My opinions or that which I have read and own in manga series on both dead tree and recycled electrons format. Though V6 Manga in print slightly differs from the scanlation done here- the printed source has Dr. Duvalier state "...out chasing girls again..." in his thought of Allessandro at the hospital when he finds him with Elizabetta. This is not said in the scanlation. In the following chapters and volumes, Sandro views his new toy as that- a toy. something he can play with and get his rocks off. This is because of his past training (in V7) where his mentor tells and teaches him that he has to have sex at times in order to get information, and that he has to use people in that way. Thus he uses Petra in that way. Furthermore, in V9, when Angie dies, the other cyborgs talk about Petra smiling face and often speaking about the 'special relationship with her handler.' If that does not mean he is not boffing her off, nothing does; for in social work and school work that I do, I have to watch out for certain phrases and behaviors when the teens in school and submit them to the social worker. I had already have 1 rescued suicide attempt because of crap like this this year- I dont want another!

And lastly, this is of my own personal opinions- something I have a right to have, whether they be right or wrong because that is how I see things and have experienced in my lifetime. You- everyone out there do not have to agree or disagree with them, but in the least respect them and beware to whom you point fingers at and misconscrue the words of what was being said. I am rather tired of certain people's attitudes about how they are taking canon as biblical text because even Yu fucks up big time in the Anime, Game and Manga! What you take from the series is your interpretation thereof and it may differ from mine. Lets leave it at that and lets continue enjoying the story for what it is- mistakes, errors, screw ups and all.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 19:42

Personally, I think you're reading a different manga than I am, but anyway, I officially wash my hands of it. It's not worth the energy getting angry about it anymore. People want to think she's a whore, fine. She wouldn't be the first woman unfairly tagged with that epithet and she certainly won't be the last.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 23:28

When Angie died, Petra was getting boned by Sandro. When Beatrice sacrificed her life, Petra was talking about her wet t-shirt. Pretty bad timing when you think about it.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by LoC978 on Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 1:54

Spartan119 wrote:do any of you get the feeling he might have some more than slight lolicon tendancies?
this statement is pretty on-target as far as I'm concerned:
Kiskaloo wrote:I expect like any good author and artist, he writes and draws what his audience (in a general sense) is interested in.
Plus "lolicon" is such a nebulous concept.
Without conducting some sort of interrogation on the man (which would be a series of feats unto itself, considering how hard he is to track down... and the fact that very few people on this board could be considered fluent in Japanese), there's just no telling. Sure, he drew some rather unmentionable things... but whether that's really his bag, or just how he made money... well, reference sentence 1.

...and then you have the 'nebulous' definition of 'lolicon'
...technically, that could describe a man attracted to semi-underfed-yet-healthy women in their early 20s... or, y'know... me.
sweat


also, most men who grew up lookin' at the glamour *ahemplayboyahem* models of the early to mid nineties

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by rusty-spring on Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 4:13

I think Yu Aida has a high chance of being one. I wouldn't go as far as to say that's his most favorite genre of all time. But the setting and coincidences of the story are too much to ignore, young girls that are "conditioned" and older handlers that are in charge of their lives.

Then again, I also think that Puff the Magic Dragon was about weed.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Alfisti on Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 8:13

rusty-spring wrote:I think Yu Aida has a high chance of being one. I wouldn't go as far as to say that's his most favorite genre of all time. But the setting and coincidences of the story are too much to ignore, young girls that are "conditioned" and older handlers that are in charge of their lives.

Then again, I also think that Puff the Magic Dragon was about weed.

I must admit I'm of two minds here... (and I'll quickly point out that I'm not really familiar with any or Yu's work outside of GSG). Yes the subject matter would possibly point to a lolita complex. However, at the same time I think GSG does a pretty solid job of pointing out that the entire situation is significantly screwed up, which in some ways could point the other direction.

To be perfectly honest if the whole thing had been sunrays and happiness regards its context I'd probably have stopped watching/reading. In fact I almost did stop after the first few episodes except for the fact that a couple of people whom I've quite a lot of time for spoke highly of the series, so I persevered and well... the rest is history.
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 9:42

Hes definitely taken a few walks on the lolicon side, but when you compare GSG to some of the other anime/manga out there, its really pretty tame.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 10:41

I admit I find the story more poignant because we have these angelic little girls turned into, as one person noted in an RPG post, "murder machines". And not just "murder machines", but ones with no conscience.

In one chapter/episode you have Henrietta and Rico bouncing on the bed like 10-11 year olds talking about the fun things they're going to do after they kill a few terrorists. To quote the comedian Kevin Meaney - "That's not right".

If they were in their very late teens or early 20's, GSG would come across more as a straight "action" title. While the female leads in each film were both turned into assassins (or at least desired to become one in the case of Lon), Lon / The Professional hit harder than La Femme Nikita because Natalie Portman was 12 in the former and Anne Parillaud was 29 in the latter. Roger Ebert commented as much in his review of Lon in where he noted - "Always at the back of my mind was the troubled thought that there was something wrong about placing a 12-year-old character in the middle of this action."

He also commented that "In what is essentially an exercise - a slick urban thriller - it seems to exploit the youth of the girl without really dealing with it." However, this is not really the case with GSG. Yu Aida does deal with what it's like to be a young girl who's been turned into an assassin, as even though the girls don't have any conscience about killing, they do have feelings and emotions about other things in their lives.

But then, it's because they don't have a conscience that I find helps me enjoy the show. If they were all "wangst" about their lot in life, I imagine I would quickly grow tired of it. I can sympathize with them more because they "like to kill" (even if it's out of a desire to please their handlers and not because of a mental disorder or character flaw) which sounds pretty disturbing in and of itself, I admit.

Does it help that they're cute? Yes. If they were ugly little ragamuffins would I still read or watch it? I would say "maybe". I do like drama and strong stories and GSG has plenty of both. So I don't believe the story would have any less visceral impact if they were not cute, but by being cute, it probably helped generate interest in the title when it first ran in Dengeki Daioh which allowed it to last long enough for the readers to enjoy it for the story and the situation, as well.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 17:28

Danjo3 wrote:Hes definitely taken a few walks on the lolicon side, but when you compare GSG to some of the other anime/manga out there, its really pretty tame.
That is so true. However, you have to look at his BitterSweet Fools work and the Pre2000 GsG Novels that are out there (3 which I know of and seen the covers thereof almost 10 years ago). Things were more graphic then as per the lolicon definition.

Kiskaloo wrote:I admit I find the story more poignant because we have these angelic little girls turned into, as one person noted in an RPG post, "murder machines". And not just "murder machines", but ones with no conscience.

In one chapter/episode you have Henrietta and Rico bouncing on the bed like 10-11 year olds talking about the fun things they're going to do after they kill a few terrorists. To quote the comedian Kevin Meaney - "That's not right".
I do believe that what Yu is trying to emulate is how a child terrorist would act. Yes, they know what they had to do is kill people. Yes they know that they are conditioned to to the task. But yes, they can at least have a bit of time for themselves no matter how small. In a RL situation that I was directly involved with, such a thing happened.

Years ago, my school was one of the first schools in the USA involved with the Seeds of Peace program which was hosted by the UN and other humanitarian groups. In short, Seeds of Peace took Israeli Jews and Palestinian Muslim teens and put them in a living group which discussed about how each of of them would work in making peace for the area as a whole. My school was part of the NYC contingent which worked with them when they were in NYC. Long story short, in the summer of '97 (or '98?), one of the Muslim boys of the group went to meet up with the Israeli Jews in a Pizza Party. The whole group was invited to go, but of the Muslim 1/2 of the group, only 1 showed up. He made some excuse for the others and then blew up the back pack he was wearing. The Pizzeria bombing made world headlines for the numbers of teens killed on that day. Until then, this boy (late teens) showed no signs of being conditioned or programmed. No one suspected nothing of him. Even after the fact, people both Jewish and Muslims were like "He was the nicest kid of the bunch!" Goes to show you, a killer can hide in any part of society and be accepted as a normal person for years until the day he strikes. It is this kind of normalcy which Yu is trying to recreate for the girls.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by West Nile on Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 6:23

anything wrong about being a lolicon?

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by arimareiji on Thu 11 Feb 2010 - 19:41

About the subject: A lolicon is someone who is personally sexually attracted to underage girls. Unless Aida-sensei himself or his real-life psychologist says something, I have to agree that attributing that motive to him says more about the attributor than the attributee. Personally, I think sexualized nudity (there is a big difference) has been virtually nonexistent in the series - but then again, I do border on asexual. So maybe I'm just saying more about myself than about Aida-sensei, too. (^_^)

(An aside: I think the word some people were looking for is a "Lolita", not a "reverse lolicon.")

Third-party observation: The very subject of Petra started with a supporter's innocuous offhand complaint. The escalation from mild complaints by both sides to angry bitching about her "noisy hate-club," their "rage-fueled rants," and how they take every opportunity to hijack threads, started with someone who says they're sick of hearing about it.

I can completely understand the feeling of "[I] don't want to talk about it anymore." But logically that means you yourself also have to stop bringing it up and/or escalating it, not just that people whose opinions you don't like should shut up. Something to keep in mind for the next time, given the ominous prophecy of "it's only a matter of time before it becomes an issue again."

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Alfisti on Thu 11 Feb 2010 - 21:24

arimareiji wrote:
(An aside: I think the word some people were looking for is a "Lolita", not a "reverse lolicon.")

I'm about a quater of the way into reading "Lolita" at the moment and, as a reflection of the title character, that would be the correct terminology.

Disturbing but well written book by the way.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by boomer_gonz on Sat 13 Feb 2010 - 11:01

Yet after reading the ending, you can't help but feel bad for the title both H and L. Especially the former.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Adam on Sun 5 Sep 2010 - 1:33

I know this thread has been inactive for a long time, but I am interested enough in this topic that I needed to post something.

When I first watched Gunslinger Girl, I was immediately a fan, and didn't thing much about why. When I later started reading things on the Internet and this forum about Gunslinger Girl I noticed the term "lolicon", but I didn't know what it meant. When I looked it up I most of me wasn't surprised, but part of me was really bothered. At that time I (somewhat reluctantly) decided I didn't want to associate with Gunslinger Girl anymore.

Months later I read through all of the manga again, and in general I was very touched by it. There are so many things in the story that have special meaning to me or make me feel like Aida has thought of similar things to me. I can't deny that, at least for me, it is brilliant. But I still didn't like the way Gunslinger Girl is generally perceived. So I wanted to find out if Yu Aida

SPARTAN 119 wrote:might have some more than slight lolicon tendancies

Now, a fairly important question here is:

West Nile wrote:anything wrong about being a lolicon?

There probably isn't in itself, but it's the sort of thing that is associated with a lot of negative things, and seems to be generally frowned upon in western society (not that I've personally asked anyone what they think about it).

Came across this line in an interview posted by Reid in August 2009. This was said by Yu Aida (and then translated):

Reid wrote:I also believe that many readers could misunderstand this work at the beginning: being published in a magazine which mainly contains comic or videogame related manga which are all about seductive girls, it's often confused for a manga of that kind, especially because all the main characters are girls. Truth is that this has nothing to do with these categories...

I'm not really sure how he sees it, but I'm fairly content that he at least said that the girls (at least at that time) where not meant to be seductive. I'm also not sure why this whole thing really bothers me.

MadHatChemist wrote:because said reader (i.e. you and I) find any sexualization of the girls (including Petra) to be just not right.

I share this sentiment, and I'm interested if fans in general do as well, as this quotation implies. I'm curious how Gunslinger Girl could frequently be considered lolicon related when most of its fan base rejects sexualization of all the characters.

arimareiji wrote:but then again, I do border on asexual. So maybe I'm just saying more about myself than about Aida-sensei, too. (^_^)

I found this especially interesting, since I feel I fall into the same category, although it might be for different reasons. Physical contact just seems to bother me...

I wonder if some of you others have or have not had similar thoughts.
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by theprodigalson on Sun 5 Sep 2010 - 13:49

When it comes to GsG, I think what I feel is more (at the risk of sounding overly romantic...) "love", for lack of a better word. They are drawn to be cute and have attractive features and all, but there is something more to it. In the girl's case, it is their pain and their doom. This inspires in me an emotion that transcends sexual desire so I labeled it "love". Understanding of their plight has created in them a purity that makes sexualization even more abhorable than their age does.

So basicly, at least in my case, what I feel here is love and I don't like seeing it defiled with sexual desire. Sexual desire is not wrong of course. It's just a very basic thing that nature has planted in all of us, and I want something more.

Adam wrote:

arimareiji wrote:but then again, I do border on asexual. So maybe I'm just saying more about myself than about Aida-sensei, too. (^_^)

I found this especially interesting, since I feel I fall into the same category, although it might be for different reasons. Physical contact just seems to bother me...

I'm nowhere near being asexual, so I may not understand your meaning in the word, but I do believe sex is something that should be taken seriously. So, I have abstained my whole life (for better or worse...) and I think the reason is because I am looking for a more real form of the "love" I feel for characters like this. Maybe that's what you really want.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Chris Hansen on Mon 6 Sep 2010 - 15:13

Adam wrote:I know this thread has been inactive for a long time, but I am interested enough in this topic that I needed to post something.

When I first watched Gunslinger Girl, I was immediately a fan, and didn't thing much about why. When I later started reading things on the Internet and this forum about Gunslinger Girl I noticed the term "lolicon", but I didn't know what it meant. When I looked it up I most of me wasn't surprised, but part of me was really bothered. At that time I (somewhat reluctantly) decided I didn't want to associate with Gunslinger Girl anymore.

I myself was the exact opposite. GSG looked intriguing as hell but it did look like lolibait upfront (even the Anime News Network review of the DVD boxset complains about the box-art and how you can "see up Henrietta's butt!" - their quote not mine) but eventually I gave in after enough people (took quite a few) convinced me that reading it won't make you a pedophile.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Godot on Sat 11 Sep 2010 - 3:26

theprodigalson wrote:When it comes to GsG, I think what I feel is more (at the risk of sounding overly romantic...) "love", for lack of a better word. They are drawn to be cute and have attractive features and all, but there is something more to it. In the girl's case, it is their pain and their doom. This inspires in me an emotion that transcends sexual desire so I labeled it "love". Understanding of their plight has created in them a purity that makes sexualization even more abhorable than their age does.

So basicly, at least in my case, what I feel here is love and I don't like seeing it defiled with sexual desire. Sexual desire is not wrong of course. It's just a very basic thing that nature has planted in all of us, and I want something more.

I'm nowhere near being asexual, so I may not understand your meaning in the word, but I do believe sex is something that should be taken seriously. So, I have abstained my whole life (for better or worse...) and I think the reason is because I am looking for a more real form of the "love" I feel for characters like this. Maybe that's what you really want.

I completely agree with you. For me, GSG is a work of art, and damn does this sound too romantic, whose characters I have fallen in love with.When you describe hollow sexuality defiling it and what seems to be shallowness undermining love in general, I wholeheartedly understand. I really don't want any of that near GSG.

Chris Hansen wrote:
Adam wrote:I know this thread has been inactive for a long time, but I am interested enough in this topic that I needed to post something.

When I first watched Gunslinger Girl, I was immediately a fan, and didn't thing much about why. When I later started reading things on the Internet and this forum about Gunslinger Girl I noticed the term "lolicon", but I didn't know what it meant. When I looked it up I most of me wasn't surprised, but part of me was really bothered. At that time I (somewhat reluctantly) decided I didn't want to associate with Gunslinger Girl anymore.

I myself was the exact opposite. GSG looked intriguing as hell but it did look like lolibait upfront (even the Anime News Network review of the DVD boxset complains about the box-art and how you can "see up Henrietta's butt!" - their quote not mine) but eventually I gave in after enough people (took quite a few) convinced me that reading it won't make you a pedophile.

If you're talking about the same page on ANN I saw, the writer also mentioned to buy GSG anyway because it's brilliant.
"Also, the cover is kind of gross. Seriously, I'm an inch from seeing her butthole. But the show is great, so buy it regardless!"
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/shelf-life/2008-01-21#gun

I was introduced to GSG without any of the preconceived notions other people might have of it because I simply stumbled upon it while watching Animax once. When I later came across all the accusations of lolicon and such, never having once thought of GSG that way, quickly disregarded them. I would like very much for all this to be cleared up, as much as I know it won't. GSG deserves a lot more serious consideration than most shows do, yet winds up with a lot less.

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"The world is not beautiful, therefore it is." - Kino's Journey
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by tremec6speed on Thu 14 Oct 2010 - 2:22

Hi Adam, you said that Reid posted an interview with Yu Aida? I Googled 'Reid' and got some interview/interrogation web site to teach employers how to screen good future employee candidates. What website has an interview with Yu Aida? I would like to check it out if I could.

"Came across this line in an interview posted by Reid in August 2009. This was said by Yu Aida (and then translated):
Reid wrote:I also believe that many readers could misunderstand this work at the beginning: being published in a magazine which mainly contains comic or videogame related manga which are all about seductive girls, it's often confused for a manga of that kind, especially because all the main characters are girls. Truth is that this has nothing to do with these categories..."

I look for interviews with this author, never find any. Any help you can provide is appreciated. Smile


Last edited by tremec6speed on Thu 14 Oct 2010 - 2:23; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : needed quotes)
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Adam on Thu 14 Oct 2010 - 20:08

The interview was posted on this forum, in the "Manga Scanlations and RAWs" section. The title of the article is "Interview with Yu Aida". Reid, the person who posted that translated article, said that the original interview was included with the Italian volumes of Gunslinger Girl.
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

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