No offense to Yu Aida but.....

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by arimareiji on Thu 11 Feb 2010 - 19:41

About the subject: A lolicon is someone who is personally sexually attracted to underage girls. Unless Aida-sensei himself or his real-life psychologist says something, I have to agree that attributing that motive to him says more about the attributor than the attributee. Personally, I think sexualized nudity (there is a big difference) has been virtually nonexistent in the series - but then again, I do border on asexual. So maybe I'm just saying more about myself than about Aida-sensei, too. (^_^)

(An aside: I think the word some people were looking for is a "Lolita", not a "reverse lolicon.")

Third-party observation: The very subject of Petra started with a supporter's innocuous offhand complaint. The escalation from mild complaints by both sides to angry bitching about her "noisy hate-club," their "rage-fueled rants," and how they take every opportunity to hijack threads, started with someone who says they're sick of hearing about it.

I can completely understand the feeling of "[I] don't want to talk about it anymore." But logically that means you yourself also have to stop bringing it up and/or escalating it, not just that people whose opinions you don't like should shut up. Something to keep in mind for the next time, given the ominous prophecy of "it's only a matter of time before it becomes an issue again."

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Alfisti on Thu 11 Feb 2010 - 21:24

@arimareiji wrote:
(An aside: I think the word some people were looking for is a "Lolita", not a "reverse lolicon.")

I'm about a quater of the way into reading "Lolita" at the moment and, as a reflection of the title character, that would be the correct terminology.

Disturbing but well written book by the way.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by boomer_gonz on Sat 13 Feb 2010 - 11:01

Yet after reading the ending, you can't help but feel bad for the title both H and L. Especially the former.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Adam on Sun 5 Sep 2010 - 1:33

I know this thread has been inactive for a long time, but I am interested enough in this topic that I needed to post something.

When I first watched Gunslinger Girl, I was immediately a fan, and didn't thing much about why. When I later started reading things on the Internet and this forum about Gunslinger Girl I noticed the term "lolicon", but I didn't know what it meant. When I looked it up I most of me wasn't surprised, but part of me was really bothered. At that time I (somewhat reluctantly) decided I didn't want to associate with Gunslinger Girl anymore.

Months later I read through all of the manga again, and in general I was very touched by it. There are so many things in the story that have special meaning to me or make me feel like Aida has thought of similar things to me. I can't deny that, at least for me, it is brilliant. But I still didn't like the way Gunslinger Girl is generally perceived. So I wanted to find out if Yu Aida

@SPARTAN 119 wrote:might have some more than slight lolicon tendancies

Now, a fairly important question here is:

@West Nile wrote:anything wrong about being a lolicon?

There probably isn't in itself, but it's the sort of thing that is associated with a lot of negative things, and seems to be generally frowned upon in western society (not that I've personally asked anyone what they think about it).

Came across this line in an interview posted by Reid in August 2009. This was said by Yu Aida (and then translated):

@Reid wrote:I also believe that many readers could misunderstand this work at the beginning: being published in a magazine which mainly contains comic or videogame related manga which are all about seductive girls, it's often confused for a manga of that kind, especially because all the main characters are girls. Truth is that this has nothing to do with these categories...

I'm not really sure how he sees it, but I'm fairly content that he at least said that the girls (at least at that time) where not meant to be seductive. I'm also not sure why this whole thing really bothers me.

@MadHatChemist wrote:because said reader (i.e. you and I) find any sexualization of the girls (including Petra) to be just not right.

I share this sentiment, and I'm interested if fans in general do as well, as this quotation implies. I'm curious how Gunslinger Girl could frequently be considered lolicon related when most of its fan base rejects sexualization of all the characters.

@arimareiji wrote:but then again, I do border on asexual. So maybe I'm just saying more about myself than about Aida-sensei, too. (^_^)

I found this especially interesting, since I feel I fall into the same category, although it might be for different reasons. Physical contact just seems to bother me...

I wonder if some of you others have or have not had similar thoughts.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by theprodigalson on Sun 5 Sep 2010 - 13:49

When it comes to GsG, I think what I feel is more (at the risk of sounding overly romantic...) "love", for lack of a better word. They are drawn to be cute and have attractive features and all, but there is something more to it. In the girl's case, it is their pain and their doom. This inspires in me an emotion that transcends sexual desire so I labeled it "love". Understanding of their plight has created in them a purity that makes sexualization even more abhorable than their age does.

So basicly, at least in my case, what I feel here is love and I don't like seeing it defiled with sexual desire. Sexual desire is not wrong of course. It's just a very basic thing that nature has planted in all of us, and I want something more.

@Adam wrote:

@arimareiji wrote:but then again, I do border on asexual. So maybe I'm just saying more about myself than about Aida-sensei, too. (^_^)

I found this especially interesting, since I feel I fall into the same category, although it might be for different reasons. Physical contact just seems to bother me...

I'm nowhere near being asexual, so I may not understand your meaning in the word, but I do believe sex is something that should be taken seriously. So, I have abstained my whole life (for better or worse...) and I think the reason is because I am looking for a more real form of the "love" I feel for characters like this. Maybe that's what you really want.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Chris Hansen on Mon 6 Sep 2010 - 15:13

@Adam wrote:I know this thread has been inactive for a long time, but I am interested enough in this topic that I needed to post something.

When I first watched Gunslinger Girl, I was immediately a fan, and didn't thing much about why. When I later started reading things on the Internet and this forum about Gunslinger Girl I noticed the term "lolicon", but I didn't know what it meant. When I looked it up I most of me wasn't surprised, but part of me was really bothered. At that time I (somewhat reluctantly) decided I didn't want to associate with Gunslinger Girl anymore.

I myself was the exact opposite. GSG looked intriguing as hell but it did look like lolibait upfront (even the Anime News Network review of the DVD boxset complains about the box-art and how you can "see up Henrietta's butt!" - their quote not mine) but eventually I gave in after enough people (took quite a few) convinced me that reading it won't make you a pedophile.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Godot on Sat 11 Sep 2010 - 3:26

@theprodigalson wrote:When it comes to GsG, I think what I feel is more (at the risk of sounding overly romantic...) "love", for lack of a better word. They are drawn to be cute and have attractive features and all, but there is something more to it. In the girl's case, it is their pain and their doom. This inspires in me an emotion that transcends sexual desire so I labeled it "love". Understanding of their plight has created in them a purity that makes sexualization even more abhorable than their age does.

So basicly, at least in my case, what I feel here is love and I don't like seeing it defiled with sexual desire. Sexual desire is not wrong of course. It's just a very basic thing that nature has planted in all of us, and I want something more.

I'm nowhere near being asexual, so I may not understand your meaning in the word, but I do believe sex is something that should be taken seriously. So, I have abstained my whole life (for better or worse...) and I think the reason is because I am looking for a more real form of the "love" I feel for characters like this. Maybe that's what you really want.

I completely agree with you. For me, GSG is a work of art, and damn does this sound too romantic, whose characters I have fallen in love with.When you describe hollow sexuality defiling it and what seems to be shallowness undermining love in general, I wholeheartedly understand. I really don't want any of that near GSG.

@Chris Hansen wrote:
@Adam wrote:I know this thread has been inactive for a long time, but I am interested enough in this topic that I needed to post something.

When I first watched Gunslinger Girl, I was immediately a fan, and didn't thing much about why. When I later started reading things on the Internet and this forum about Gunslinger Girl I noticed the term "lolicon", but I didn't know what it meant. When I looked it up I most of me wasn't surprised, but part of me was really bothered. At that time I (somewhat reluctantly) decided I didn't want to associate with Gunslinger Girl anymore.

I myself was the exact opposite. GSG looked intriguing as hell but it did look like lolibait upfront (even the Anime News Network review of the DVD boxset complains about the box-art and how you can "see up Henrietta's butt!" - their quote not mine) but eventually I gave in after enough people (took quite a few) convinced me that reading it won't make you a pedophile.

If you're talking about the same page on ANN I saw, the writer also mentioned to buy GSG anyway because it's brilliant.
"Also, the cover is kind of gross. Seriously, I'm an inch from seeing her butthole. But the show is great, so buy it regardless!"
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/shelf-life/2008-01-21#gun

I was introduced to GSG without any of the preconceived notions other people might have of it because I simply stumbled upon it while watching Animax once. When I later came across all the accusations of lolicon and such, never having once thought of GSG that way, quickly disregarded them. I would like very much for all this to be cleared up, as much as I know it won't. GSG deserves a lot more serious consideration than most shows do, yet winds up with a lot less.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by tremec6speed on Thu 14 Oct 2010 - 2:22

Hi Adam, you said that Reid posted an interview with Yu Aida? I Googled 'Reid' and got some interview/interrogation web site to teach employers how to screen good future employee candidates. What website has an interview with Yu Aida? I would like to check it out if I could.

"Came across this line in an interview posted by Reid in August 2009. This was said by Yu Aida (and then translated):
Reid wrote:I also believe that many readers could misunderstand this work at the beginning: being published in a magazine which mainly contains comic or videogame related manga which are all about seductive girls, it's often confused for a manga of that kind, especially because all the main characters are girls. Truth is that this has nothing to do with these categories..."

I look for interviews with this author, never find any. Any help you can provide is appreciated. Smile


Last edited by tremec6speed on Thu 14 Oct 2010 - 2:23; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : needed quotes)

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Adam on Thu 14 Oct 2010 - 20:08

The interview was posted on this forum, in the "Manga Scanlations and RAWs" section. The title of the article is "Interview with Yu Aida". Reid, the person who posted that translated article, said that the original interview was included with the Italian volumes of Gunslinger Girl.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by liko on Thu 20 Oct 2011 - 18:31

Ok, I know its been a while since the tread started but I feel compelled to post on this topic.
1.) A lot of emerging artist start as with doujinshi before they are picked up by a published. It might seem strange to Western audience, but I guess it is similar to book authors first being published in a magazine or anthology before getting a book approved. Some examples of people/groups which started that way are CLAMP(authors of Chobits, Card Captor Sakura etc), Ken Akamatsu (Negima) and Kiyohiko Azuma (Azumanga Daioh) among many others.
2.) Artist majors need to eat too. And it is proven fact that sex sells.
A bit of anecdotal evidence, but knowing few people, who want to draw comics, for a living from the local university art department... Well, regardless of what their aspirations are, they are not adverse to taking commissions (under a different name). From what they tell me many of the orders are what you can find under /d on chan boards. The artist are not very proud but need the money to pay their bills.
3.) The age of consent in Italy is 14 (13 in Japan). The cyborgs are considered to be older then they appear outwardly.
4.) While the author had done his research, the work was intended for local audience thus some eastern tropes are invoked. In particular it is seen as a bad thing to die a virgin. In the doujin "Idle Talk" by Jewel Box published in 2000, the 'Etta ringer is servery wounded and have to take an extra shot of the "medicine". The point is their chances to get away are not so good and they have a case of "do it at least once before we die". Just like the double lover suicide traditions, it might seem strange, but in contest is considered very romantic.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by razschi on Fri 21 Oct 2011 - 8:21

Still, he could have found another way to make money if he is not proud of it... but what is in the past reamins in the past.
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Entropy on Fri 21 Oct 2011 - 18:55

Trying to defend the fact that Aida's first iteration of GSG was pornographic is really focusing on the wrong issue. There are plenty of famous mangaka that never do explicitly sexual material.

The real question is: "Can a story be both meaningful and sexual explicit?" Most people would concede that it can be but, this crosses a further line with making it sexually explicit in regards to a young girl. While by itself it doesn't look good, when combined with the other doujinshi featuring early GSG stories, a different overall picture starts to appear. Aida meant originally for the story to be more pulp fiction-y, telling the story of these girls under adverse circumstances trying to live and find happiness. You don't have to stretch the imagination to find out how sex would fit into this picture, and obviously it was taken out in the final manga to make it more palatable. You'd be lying to yourself to think that the h-scenes were put in there for purely artistic reasons, but I don't think it delegitimizes the message of the larger story that surrounds it.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by tremec6speed on Fri 21 Oct 2011 - 20:41

@Entropy wrote:Trying to defend the fact that Aida's first iteration of GSG was pornographic is really focusing on the wrong issue. There are plenty of famous mangaka that never do explicitly sexual material.

The real question is: "Can a story be both meaningful and sexual explicit?" Most people would concede that it can be but, this crosses a further line with making it sexually explicit in regards to a young girl. While by itself it doesn't look good, when combined with the other doujinshi featuring early GSG stories, a different overall picture starts to appear. Aida meant originally for the story to be more pulp fiction-y, telling the story of these girls under adverse circumstances trying to live and find happiness. You don't have to stretch the imagination to find out how sex would fit into this picture, and obviously it was taken out in the final manga to make it more palatable. You'd be lying to yourself to think that the h-scenes were put in there for purely artistic reasons, but I don't think it delegitimizes the message of the larger story that surrounds it.
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He would not be cool to me anymore. Oh well, there's always my second fav, Olga! head bang
(I hope she didn't do anybody) just whistlin'
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 22 Oct 2011 - 0:13

@tremec6speed wrote:
@Entropy wrote:Trying to defend the fact that Aida's first iteration of GSG was pornographic is really focusing on the wrong issue. There are plenty of famous mangaka that never do explicitly sexual material.

The real question is: "Can a story be both meaningful and sexual explicit?" Most people would concede that it can be but, this crosses a further line with making it sexually explicit in regards to a young girl. While by itself it doesn't look good, when combined with the other doujinshi featuring early GSG stories, a different overall picture starts to appear. Aida meant originally for the story to be more pulp fiction-y, telling the story of these girls under adverse circumstances trying to live and find happiness. You don't have to stretch the imagination to find out how sex would fit into this picture, and obviously it was taken out in the final manga to make it more palatable. You'd be lying to yourself to think that the h-scenes were put in there for purely artistic reasons, but I don't think it delegitimizes the message of the larger story that surrounds it.
Oh no, I soooooooooo hope my fav character, Lauro never did little deSica.
He would not be cool to me anymore. Oh well, there's always my second fav, Olga! head bang
(I hope she didn't do anybody) just whistlin'
As far as I remember (though I need the original works translated), I dont remember Luaro in the original series. Neither was Elsa. Funny though, Petrushka then was Elsa like, but with short black hair instead of Elsa's long pig tails. Everything then about Petrushka was Elsa, "doing her best for her handler" and yet still (physically, emotionally and mentally) abused by the bastard. Even her clothes was Elsa in style. I think that these two eventually became Elsa and Lauro, and Yu killed them because such abuse could not last forever.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by tremec6speed on Sat 22 Oct 2011 - 1:23

@ElfenMagix wrote:
@tremec6speed wrote:
@Entropy wrote:Trying to defend the fact that Aida's first iteration of GSG was pornographic is really focusing on the wrong issue. There are plenty of famous mangaka that never do explicitly sexual material.

The real question is: "Can a story be both meaningful and sexual explicit?" Most people would concede that it can be but, this crosses a further line with making it sexually explicit in regards to a young girl. While by itself it doesn't look good, when combined with the other doujinshi featuring early GSG stories, a different overall picture starts to appear. Aida meant originally for the story to be more pulp fiction-y, telling the story of these girls under adverse circumstances trying to live and find happiness. You don't have to stretch the imagination to find out how sex would fit into this picture, and obviously it was taken out in the final manga to make it more palatable. You'd be lying to yourself to think that the h-scenes were put in there for purely artistic reasons, but I don't think it delegitimizes the message of the larger story that surrounds it.
Oh no, I soooooooooo hope my fav character, Lauro never did little deSica.
He would not be cool to me anymore. Oh well, there's always my second fav, Olga! head bang
(I hope she didn't do anybody) just whistlin'
As far as I remember (though I need the original works translated), I dont remember Luaro in the original series. Neither was Elsa. Funny though, Petrushka then was Elsa like, but with short black hair instead of Elsa's long pig tails. Everything then about Petrushka was Elsa, "doing her best for her handler" and yet still (physically, emotionally and mentally) abused by the bastard. Even her clothes was Elsa in style. I think that these two eventually became Elsa and Lauro, and Yu killed them because such abuse could not last forever.
interesting....
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 22 Oct 2011 - 9:06

@ElfenMagix wrote:Funny though, Petrushka then was Elsa like, but with short black hair instead of Elsa's long pig tails.

Petrushka had Claes' physical features in the original doujin.


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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by tremec6speed on Sat 22 Oct 2011 - 16:50

I took part of a sentence from Liko and copy/paste it ("the doujin "Idle Talk" by Jewel Box") to search on Google with results that well, made me sad as clicking on some of the results showed 'Henrietta'? (not translated, don't know) doing some very unsavory scenes, such as going down on 'Jose'?

Not judging Mr. Aida or anything, just saying that after I've become acquainted with Jose and the others, it's kinda had to see them doing stuff like that, although being a big fan of the author, I am curious about his past works.
Anyway, after seeing that, all I can say is....
*
Hooray for fanfiction!! Smile
There, I can make my characters do and be what and who I want them to.
Example: Lauro has a tidbit part in the manga and in the anime, there was so much more to be explored of him which I can bring to the table so to speak, in my own character Gunther, Lauro's younger brother.
He has all that I want in Mr. Aida's character, (similar looks. voice, somewhat unapproachable) but at the same time, I can inject all the qualities that I want as well! (without any hentai)
Gunther would never do Ayden.
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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Nagneto on Sun 23 Oct 2011 - 4:56

The original version of Gunslinger Girl was a one shot lolicon doujinshi called "fratello". I apologize if someone already mentioned this I wasn't going to read every single post.


Last edited by Nagneto on Sun 23 Oct 2011 - 4:59; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : To add the word doujinshi, I forgotten the term.)

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

Post by Nagneto on Sun 23 Oct 2011 - 4:57

I believe it was Yu Ada's first amateur effort as a Manga artist to get published. I've only heard rumors of it and seen a screen shot of the cover which doesn't look too different from Gunslinger Girl in art design.

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Re: No offense to Yu Aida but.....

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