Drool...

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Drool...

Post by Piero on Sat 21 Nov 2009 - 2:51

Despite being way too big and heavy and only seating four people, I kind of want one of these for OC Piero. Too bad they're probably a bit much for his budget. Laughing

http://www.worldcarfans.com/109081020970/new-bmw-7-series-high-security-announced



So yeah... how'd you like a sedan that can withstand 7.62x51mm NATO AP rounds and still go from zero to one hundred kilometers per hour (about sixty two miles per hour) in less then six and a half seconds? Oh yeah, and it has an option for a hidden compartment to store a pair of automatic weapons in. Smile MP5Ks, anyone?

Actually, the armour protection is just a guess, the car is apparently fully armoured to VR7 and partially armoured to VR9, whatever those are. The old B7 standard was 7.62mm NATO AP though, and while the transparent armour on this seems a bit thin for that (a lot of B7 level 'glass' seems to have a thickness more about 70mm, this is only about 60mm) it's way higher then it would need to be for the old B6 (non AP 7.62mm NATO) standard. Kinda makes you wonder what the hell VR9 is supposed to stand up to, huh?

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Re: Drool...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Nov 2009 - 10:16

I gave my "canon OC fratello" of Danilo and Ilaria Sandrelli an E38 series 740iL Protection in the "Analysis" chapter of Giuoco Pianissimo.

And while it was not an F03 High Security model, last week James May tested the new F02 760Li on Top Gear and he liked it.

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Re: Drool...

Post by Alfisti on Sat 21 Nov 2009 - 10:21

I do note that Land Rover does armored versions of both the Discovery and Range Rover too. Very Happy

I dunno though, it's cool, and I can see where it'd be useful but... armoured cars have just never really done it for me to be honest. A friend of the family once came into posession (somehow, the bloke was in one government department or another) of a heavily armoured Merc. Said it was brutally fast, but rubbish in the corners... and to be honest it'd run out of fuel before out-running bad-guys Razz
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Re: Drool...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Nov 2009 - 11:48

That is kind of the key - adding all that weight really hurts the handling.

Also, the point of an armored car is to escape an attack which is not something fratelli do - they initiate attacks.

I gave one to the Sandrelli fratello specifically because I wanted to ambush them, but didn't want to kill them. So I figure Danilo found one used for a really good price which is why he had it. Wink

I also gave Chairwoman D'Angelo an armored Bentley Arnage in the short story The Transporter.

Personally, I prefer the new Mercedes S600 Guard, though if it was Michele, it would be an armored Rolls-Royce Phantom.

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Re: Drool...

Post by Piero on Sat 21 Nov 2009 - 14:24

I may have jumped the gun on the armour protection on this puppy... I'd generally been under the impression that level B6 armour glass was around 40mm thick, but one of the articles on one of Mercedes armoured car models lists it as having the same window thickness as this BMW (2.4 inchs, or about 60mm), and it was only a B6/B7 (which I gather indicates level B6 on the windows, and level B7 on the opaque armour). Which might mean the new VR7/VR9 standards are comparable to the old B6/B7 standards. You'd think BMW would market it as a VR7/VR9 then though, rather then simply saying that the passenger cell is fully armoured to VR7 and that parts of the car even meet the VR9 standard. Unless the car doesn't have enough VR9 grade sections to warrant that, but then the last 7 series high security was rated a B6/B7, and I hardly think BMW would settle for less protection on the new model.

Also means that if VR7 is equivalent to B6, the new high security version of the X5, which is rated to VR6, is set to something lower. BMW markets the high security X5 as being able to stand up to a AK-47, which would be B5 on the old scale... but B5 seems to be a rather unused standard, probably because people figured if you were going to go to the trouble of armouring a car to stand up to rifle fire, it made sense to go for the whole hog.

Anyhow, yeah, the handling issue is part of the problem, as is the price tag (though I might be able to justify it if I stretched things a bit) plus for a black ops agency it might be better advisable to look for aftermarket armouring given the background checks needed for a factory armoured car.

That being said, I think Piero probably drives an armoured car, it's just a lighter one. I think he views his car as a tool, probably partly because he got some pretty decent driver training in the GIS, and hey, why not have something that can put it to use? I figure his justification for armouring might be something along the lines of "in case some asshole I'm chasing decides to open up on my car with a submachine gun." In which case a much lighter and much less expensive B4/VR4 armouring job makes sense. And that would be affordable, getting factory installed armour on a E Class at that level is 45,000 euros, I suspect a BMW 5 Series would be similar, and of course there are aftermarket options (which might be the case if I stick with the 335i that I'd long thought of Piero as driving, since BMW hasn't bothered to do a factory armoured version of the current 3 Series).

Only real problem with the lighter armoured car is that it means it couldn't really feature in the De Luca arc of The Huntress' Dilemma, where a more heavily armoured car would probably be advisable (you really want to play tail for a VIP carrying vehicle in something only rated for handguns?) and thus the only chance to really feature the fact that the car is armoured goes out the window. Hence a big part of the temptation with the Seven here... it would get a logical chance for it's armour protection to feature in the story.

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Re: Drool...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Nov 2009 - 15:04

I'm guessing "VR" is a marketing term unique to BMW, since I can't find anyone else using it. I use the EN 1063 Standard since that is how Europe defines vehicular ballistic glass protection.

If you're "playing tail" you're not going to want a large sedan - that is what the Primary is going to be in. So something like the Mercedes E-Guard or BMW X-5 Security would be appropriate.

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Re: Drool...

Post by Piero on Sat 21 Nov 2009 - 15:45

There's a German aftermarket armouring company called Farmington Automotive that also uses it, and it appears to be something a company can get government certification for. Perhaps it's a German specific standard? (I'd been under the impression it was a new standard meant to replace the old B1-B7 classification, particularly as 'BRV1999 requirements' have been referenced in regards to the VR series classifications, strongly suggesting the VR standards are something quite recent.)

Of course, none of that really solves the problem that it still isn't the clear what VR7 and VR9 really mean. Laughing Although the fact that Farmington's Toyota Land Cruiser derivative is rated VR6/VR7 again seems to suggest something comparable to the B6/B7 standard, particularly as said Land Cruiser variant has 39mm armour glass.

And I can understand wanting an agile car for tailing the primary, but if one of your other roles is, if need be, to fend off the enemy so that the car carrying the primary can escape, then I'd say there's good reason to want some good armour protection of your own. That's why I'm wondering if Piero's 335i (or possibly 550i) wouldn't be considered quite up to snuff for what the mission entails.

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Re: Drool...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Nov 2009 - 16:06

Well it depends on your threats.

In general, you can expect the people attacking you are going to use, at worst, assault rifles. They need to be mobile and concealable, as well, which precludes large heavy machine guns firing very-heavy rounds like .50BMG.

And since your mobile, you don't need a "pillbox" that will just sit there and absorb hundreds of rounds. You want something strong enough to absorb scores of rounds and keep going. For that, BR5-BR7 should be plenty fine as a "tail". Your goal is to just provide enough interference for the Primary to be successfully extricated.

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Re: Drool...

Post by Piero on Sat 21 Nov 2009 - 16:22

Just wanted to note I found some stuff indicating that VR and B are directly comparable. VR (Vehicle Resistance) levels are the certifications for armoured vehicles, while B is ballistic level certification for armour plating. Not sure if it's entirely true though, especially as I don't think there is a B9 standard, so I have no idea what BMW is indicating with 'VR9.' I'm also left wondering why if BMW can fully armour their 7 Series to VR7 with 2.4 inchs of ballistic glass, Mercedes S600 Pullman Guard with the same glass thickness is only rated B6/B7. Perhaps the info on the Pullman is a bit off though.

As for the tail car thing, assault/battle rifle level protection was about what I thought the car should have. My criticism of using the relatively light 3 or 5 series car I'd been considering for Piero's general use car is that it would only have handgun level protection, and thus a lot of the automatic weapons Padania uses would easily be able to penetrate it. Thus if that was his day to day car he might end up having to borrow something heavier (and more expensive) from the agency motor pool for the De Luca assignment.

I think I'd mentioned before I have a tendency to overthink things? Laughing

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Re: Drool...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Nov 2009 - 16:30

Okay, that makes sense. EN 1063 is specific to ballistic glass. There is also the SG1 / SG2 levels designed to protect against a 478 grain solid lead Brenneke slug. SG1 will absorb one while SG2 can handle three.

Well I'm not sure BMW even offers a factory 3 or 5 Series Security model. And even if they did, nothing prevents Piero from choosing to armor a normal 3 Series via the aftermarket. You'd want your best armor in the windshield and back window, so you could go with a lower (BR4) rating on the sides.

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Re: Drool...

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Nov 2009 - 16:36

Actually BMW did add the VR4 level 530i Security and 550i Security in 2009.

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Re: Drool...

Post by Piero on Sat 21 Nov 2009 - 16:44

BMW does offer a factory armoured five series with a VR4 (.44 magnum) rating. They briefly offered comparable ballistic protection on the 3 Series, but that seems to have come and gone with the previous generation of 3s, so a current gen 3 Series with the sort of protection would probably be an aftermarket job.

I'm actually a big fan of the 335i, but part of me thinks the 550i Security would make more sense. Factory armoured means the cars been beefed up to handle the extra weight right from the beginning, and the V8 on the 550i seem to me like it has more room for tweaking then the twin turbo I-6 on the 335i.

I do like the idea of going for different protection levels from different angles, I'd actually been considering doing the front windshield on the 335i to level B5, and it arguably wouldn't be too hard to do the rear windshield that way as well. Could probably be done as an upgrade to a factory armoured 5 Series as well.

The full blown Seven series is still very tempting though. Razz

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