Armoring the Cyborgs

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Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by funkmachine on Tue 24 Nov 2009 - 13:23

as it appers the main changes are artificial muscles,most of there organs, and a partially/fully artificial skeleton
but thay still bleed, feel some pain.

by area

head: the skull is the key here and it is mosty all fused in to one round part so renforce it once and tell them to keep there head down.

neck:the main weak point its got blood,air and nerves all in one spot.

Chest: full of organs but the rib cage can changed to cover the gaps at the side and under the sternum.

abdomen (belly)
Abdominal organs

* Digestive tract: stomach,small and large intestines, cecum and appendix*
* Accessory organs of the digestive tract: Liver, gallbladder and pancreas
* Urinary system: Kidneys and ureters
* Other organs: Spleen

(*removed?)
the bad news is that you have no bones near there, you need all the organs,there hard to repair and shots to that area are common.
rectus abdominis muscle

Arms: bar a few arterys there no organs damage.
legs:bar a few arterys there no organs damage.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 24 Nov 2009 - 14:37

We know the girls bleed when shot, stabbed or hit in the face.

Triela took an assault rifle round (probably 5.56mm) to the abdomen at point blank range and it knocked her on her ass and caused significant bleeding and initial pain, but she was still fully combat effective. The same happened when Pino shot her with Triela's 9mm SiG.

Rico took a round in her shoulder or neck area from Franco's SMG, though I don't know what round it fires.

Henrietta probably took a 9mm round to the shoulder (the guy with the AK doesn't look like he got off a round before Henrietta killed him) which she didn't even notice until Jose pointed it out. The round clearly penetrated her muscle (you can see the hole after Dr. Donato prepared the wound for surgery), but it also didn't affect her abilities.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 24 Nov 2009 - 18:42

They almost certainly ARE armored in all the places you mention, funk, and I think the armor's proof against pistol rounds AT THE VERY LEAST. The blood means nothing - the Terminator bled when he got shot, but did that mean he was hurt?

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 24 Nov 2009 - 18:48

@Nachtsider wrote:The blood means nothing...

Well it does mean the girls still have an extensive circulatory system that extends beyond just the brain/heart/lungs.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by LoC978 on Tue 24 Nov 2009 - 22:30

or are designed to appear as if they do, at any rate.

Dj vu conversation...

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by maverick375 on Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 0:29

I think a rifle round can penetrate reasonably, given a range that is within, say, the first 25% of the round's normally lethal range. For a 7.62, you're probably looking withing the first 25-40 yards, maybe only 30. To stop such a round, you need either a massive amount of kevlar or a ceramic plate backing a level 2. The round just has too much kinetic energy within that range.

Pistol rounds are far less lethal at such a range, mainly because their energy at a singular point is considerably lower. Figure a rifle round at 2000fps, with a long, shallow ogive, say a 174grain projectile, commonly used in a 7.62x54R. Heck, make it steel core like most mil-surp rounds are. Even in a Dragunov style semi-auto rifle, these are an extremely capable round for penetration at distance. A similar round in a pistol is the 5.7mm. It's essentially a high-velocity 22cal, with excellent penetration of heavy clothing, maybe even level 1 kevlar, even without the AP rounds.
Compare these to the typical defensive 115grain 9x19mm, which is only pushing a touch over 1100fps. A wide bullet, shallow ogive, and slow velocity=dispersal of energy.

In my story, I put the girls to a real test of their armoring, using a Smith&Wesson 500XVR revolver. I don't believe there is any real way such a gun could not put one of the cyborgs down critically with a torso shot. Maybe extreme distance? The velocity and energy easily outstrip any hinderance the wide, heavy slug would have, especially at close range. While it might not kill them immediately like the :cough:: 20mm shot did to Beatrice, it would certainly leave a lasting impression, and probably fatally wound them. Kevlar would probably slow it down, but without a trauma plate, it's going in.

There's an entire study into broad meplat bullets, primarily for big-game hunting, nature's own armor plating in some instances.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 0:59

In Chapter 44, Alessandro notes that the BMW X5 that tries to take their Alfa Romeo out is equipped with the same CFRP armor the Agency uses. The 9mm rounds from Petra's Spectre literally bounce off the windows and sides, not leaving even scratches. One does slightly penetrate the gap between the doors in the B pillar, but that's it.

Clearly, a large, high-velocity slug will not just penetrate, but do lethal damage: that 20mm anti-aircraft round nearly cut Beatrice in half.

But it does appear that at least non-armor piercing rifle rounds won't stop them. So I expect you need .50BMG or .400 / .500S&W to really ensure a kill with one shot.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by funkmachine on Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 16:01

@maverick375 wrote:I think a rifle round can penetrate reasonably, given a range that is within, say, the first 25% of the round's normally lethal range. For a 7.62, you're probably looking withing the first 25-40 yards, maybe only 30. To stop such a round, you need either a massive amount of kevlar or a ceramic plate backing a level 2. The round just has too much kinetic energy within that range.
most rifle round A) fragment or expand in the body B) are AP or FMJ and are built with the penetration kevlar or ceramic plate,and just put small holes in you


@maverick375 wrote:
In my story, I put the girls to a real test of their armoring, using a Smith&Wesson 500XVR revolver. I don't believe there is any real way such a gun could not put one of the cyborgs down critically with a torso shot. Maybe extreme distance? The velocity and energy easily outstrip any hinderance the wide, heavy slug would have, especially at close range. While it might not kill them immediately like the :cough:: 20mm shot did to Beatrice, it would certainly leave a lasting impression, and probably fatally wound them. Kevlar would probably slow it down, but without a trauma plate, it's going in.


note that lage heavy slugs are slow vs autocannon (20mm and up) rounds (1,035 m/s (3395 ft/s) vs 1,975 ft/s (602 m/s) 5.56 is 940 m/s (3,100 ft/s) and .500 S&W Magnum is built for big game and ego not aircraft and tanks still as it a hand gun vs autocannon puts up a good fight.

but as you say it would do a lot of damage:shatter ribs,bust a lung, if there is any time when thay stop black out and stop moveing to slow blood loss then a .500 Magnum has the best odds of any hunting handgun of killing one.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by maverick375 on Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 18:43

Smith and Wesson boasts that the .460 S&W is the highest velocity
revolver cartridge in the world, firing bullets at 2330 ft/s. With
Buffalo Bore's new loading, the .460 S&W can achieve nearly
2900ftlbf of energy by driving a 360 grain bullet at 1900 ft/s.[3] For comparison .500 S&W Magnum offers slightly more power driving a 350 grain bullet at 1975 ft/s for a total of 3031ftlbf

Thought I'd toss out some info on the largest S&W magnum calibers. The real interesting bit is that Smith tends to under-build their revolvers, at least compared to Ruger. There have been accounts of Rugers easily digesting high-powered loads that wreck a similar Smith. To my knowledge, Ruger has only gone as far as the 480Ruger cartridge in their Super Redhawks.
From Wiki:
The standard Hornady 325 gr JHP .480 Ruger cartridge, can produce a
muzzle velocity of 1350 ft/s (405 m/s) and generates one-third more
muzzle energy than the standard .44 Magnum cartridge

This is a little more than half of what the 460 Smith fires in a similar weight. Short of a custom order, I doubt Ruger has considered the Smith Magnum calibers to be profitable enough to build for.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 24 Jan 2010 - 10:45

@Kiskaloo wrote:In Chapter 44, Alessandro notes that the BMW X5 that tries to take their Alfa Romeo out is equipped with the same CFRP armor the Agency uses. The 9mm rounds from Petra's Spectre literally bounce off the windows and sides, not leaving even scratches. One does slightly penetrate the gap between the doors in the B pillar, but that's it.

Clearly, a large, high-velocity slug will not just penetrate, but do lethal damage: that 20mm anti-aircraft round nearly cut Beatrice in half.

But it does appear that at least non-armor piercing rifle rounds won't stop them. So I expect you need .50BMG or .400 / .500S&W to really ensure a kill with one shot.
I would dare speculate that some exotic round like explosive tips or telfon gel coating could penetrate the material.

But comparing a car to a cyborg makes no sense. It would be difficult for the girls to have an internal CFRP shield in them and still be flexible in motion.

In the least I would add that the girls were built for a certain level of protection, and that protection would be what they would find in the streets: 9mm handguns, small-medium gauge shotguns and NATO or hunting class rifles and machine guns. Your average street thug is not going to carry a .50BMG weapon. But unfortunately, this is what the girls have been meeting up with lately, and they have become out classed and out gunned. The girls, let alone the handlers, do not have anti-terrorist training (except perhaps Marco).

Now the problem rises when you get a Second Generation cyborg. As stated in V5 by Dr. Guillaini (sp?) "She will have a long life as long as she does not get shot." He also stated that "The upper torso was left untouched." In short this means that with the Second Generation, at least with Petrushka, she does not have the ballistic protection that the first generation girls have. Putting her in the situation that befell on the girls in V10 would have added one more dead cyborg to the list. The question I ask is why wasn't Petrushka given such protection? In the past such protection had kept the girls alive and able to continue with their missions. Thus far Petrushka is running on luck that she has not gotten hit but one day that luck will run out.

This is why in my fanfiction I give my cyborg OCs external protection to wear.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 24 Jan 2010 - 12:03

@ElfenMagix wrote:I would dare speculate that some exotic round like explosive tips or telfon gel coating could penetrate the material.

Well Teflon coating just reduces barrel wear. Lab tests have proven it does not help a bullet penetrate soft body armor.

@ElfenMagix wrote:But comparing a car to a cyborg makes no sense. It would be difficult for the girls to have an internal CFRP shield in them and still be flexible in motion.

In my OC universe, the cyborgs mostly have "soft armor" composed of a CFRP weave placed over their musculature. With Pactio, I think I am going to decide that instead of actual artificial muscles, their real muscles are sheathed in CFRP or carbon nanotubes to improve their strength and provide ballistic protection from small arms (we have yet to see the take a high-powered rifle round in the arm or leg, but in Stainless Starlight I had a sniper round go through Rico's thigh and immobilize her). I've always figured their ribcage was lined with CFRP "plates" like the ballistic plates used to allow body armor to absorb rifle rounds. I expect the same is done to their skulls (though I still believe Rico was not actually hit in the head in Venice - it was either a glancing round or, as the anime seems to imply, the bullet his the structure and knocked off a piece of debris which then hit her face).

@ElfenMagix wrote:Now the problem rises when you get a Second Generation cyborg...The question I ask is why wasn't Petrushka given such protection? In the past such protection had kept the girls alive and able to continue with their missions.

Until Petrushka or one of the other Gen2 girls is actually shot, we don't know what level of protection they have. Yu might very well decide to make her even tougher than a Generation 1.

And so far, Generation 2 cyborgs are not seen in combat situations (even in Venice, Petra stayed well away from the Piazza San Marco), so it's possible they are not really meant for frontline combat duty, but instead for other missions where the risk of taking fire is much lower (as I have mostly been writing Kara).

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by funkmachine on Tue 26 Jan 2010 - 14:18

@ElfenMagix wrote:

But comparing a car to a cyborg makes no sense. It would be difficult for the girls to have an internal CFRP shield in them and still be flexible in motion.

Now the problem rises when you get a Second Generation cyborg. As stated in V5 by Dr. Guillaini (sp?) "She will have a long life as long as she does not get shot." He also stated that "The upper torso was left untouched." In short this means that with the Second Generation, at least with Petrushka, she does not have the ballistic protection that the first generation girls have.
The question I ask is why wasn't Petrushka given such protection? In the past such protection had kept the girls alive and able to continue with their missions. Thus far Petrushka is running on luck that she has not gotten hit but one day that luck will run out.

This is why in my fanfiction I give my cyborg OCs external protection to wear.
well Petrushka has a adult body so normal body armor will fit and most of it is chest armor filling her weak spot.

on the internal CFRP shield idea some area dont move i.e.the sternum and uper ribs


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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 26 Jan 2010 - 18:03

The sternum itself does not move but the upper ribs (in fact all of them) do move. If they didn't, you would not be able to flex your upper back and shouler movement would be very restricted.

Both doctors in V5 state that Petruska will be in some form or another unprotected on her upper torso and "will live a long healthy life if she is not shot." This basically means that she does not have ballistic protection that the first gen has. We can discuss it all we want but the 2 statements the doctors made shows some truth to the lack of this protection.

What gets to me is that when some ppl think bullet proof protection, they think militiary style think amour. My OCs have used Miguel Caballero's protection, which gives style and elegance while giving maximum protection without the bulk. And if they are wearing the t-shirt, shirt and coat, that is 3 layers of protection they are wearing.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Tue 26 Jan 2010 - 21:13

@ElfenMagix wrote:
What gets to me is that when some ppl think bullet proof protection, they think militiary style think amour. My OCs have used Miguel Caballero's protection, which gives style and elegance while giving maximum protection without the bulk. And if they are wearing the t-shirt, shirt and coat, that is 3 layers of protection they are wearing.

...which makes me immediately wonder: if the cyborg's skin is synthetic then could it be created to give some degree of protection? I mean, it may not be a lot, but it could at least help slow the slugs down.

Eh, just a thought. Guns, ammo, and protection agaist the two when put together isn't really my strong suit

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 26 Jan 2010 - 21:21

@Alfisti wrote:...which makes me immediately wonder: if the cyborg's skin is synthetic then could it be created to give some degree of protection? I mean, it may not be a lot, but it could at least help slow the slugs down.

If it is armor, it's not very good. When they are shot or stabbed, they bleed, so the weapons is clearly penetrating the skin.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by funkmachine on Tue 26 Jan 2010 - 21:38

@ElfenMagix wrote:
I would dare speculate that some exotic round like explosive tips or telfon gel coating could penetrate the material.
to be frank explosive tips dont have a great track record (seeThe Reagan assassination attempt,Reagan olny noted later,brany survived) your best bet is a 30 round mag of 5.56mm FMJ to the chest.
but if it must be some type of exotic round then

now i know where Triela gst her jackets from.
that armors type 2\2A so it will keep 9mm out and slow down bigger rounds some,still it the type of armor that is easy to wear day to day.

if you had laped plates on the in side of the ribs?

maybe Petrushka has less armor as she is more like to get Frisked a lot.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 26 Jan 2010 - 23:06

@Alfisti wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:
What gets to me is that when some ppl think bullet proof protection, they think militiary style think amour. My OCs have used Miguel Caballero's protection, which gives style and elegance while giving maximum protection without the bulk. And if they are wearing the t-shirt, shirt and coat, that is 3 layers of protection they are wearing.

...which makes me immediately wonder: if the cyborg's skin is synthetic then could it be created to give some degree of protection? I mean, it may not be a lot, but it could at least help slow the slugs down.

Eh, just a thought. Guns, ammo, and protection agaist the two when put together isn't really my strong suit
Like Kisk says, knives and bullets penetrates it, so there is no protection there.
Though in parallel, between my fanfict and Yu's canon, some form of synthetic skin is being used possibly with the host's skin; to produce a covering that virtually scar-free.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Wed 27 Jan 2010 - 0:05

@ElfenMagix wrote:
Like Kisk says, knives and bullets penetrates it, so there is no protection there.
Though in parallel, between my fanfict and Yu's canon, some form of synthetic skin is being used possibly with the host's skin; to produce a covering that virtually scar-free.

Hmm, maybe I wasn't quite clear with that... I guess the way I've always pictured the cyborgs' "armor" isn't so much as having a distinct armor layer but rather having a design similar to a, for want of a better description, Honorverse warship. So skin, muscles, bone etc all have some level of bullet resistance and become sacrificial to prevent rounds from penetrating anything more important in the core body. So skin won't stop knives, bullets etc... but it'll slow them down so the next layer has a better chance of stopping them. Maybe then the Gen One Cyborgs have a proper layer of ballistic protection, but as far as the Gen 2 girls are concerned... Obviously some areas need proper protection (cranium for example), but you get the general idea.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Awinnell on Wed 27 Jan 2010 - 1:21

Petras got boobs,they are as fake as the rest of her,so in theory they could be stuffed full of kevlar or whatever as armour !

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by SPARTAN 119 on Wed 27 Jan 2010 - 1:45

@Awinnell wrote:Petras got boobs,they are as fake as the rest of her,so in theory they could be stuffed full of kevlar or whatever as armour !
I'm not sure Sandro would like that though, as then they'd probably be too firm, rather than the proper texture of a female breast!
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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by boomer_gonz on Wed 27 Jan 2010 - 2:07

Torpedoes man, Torpedoes!

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 27 Jan 2010 - 11:08

@Alfisti wrote:I guess the way I've always pictured the cyborgs' "armor" isn't so much as having a distinct armor layer but rather having a design similar to a, for want of a better description, Honorverse warship. So skin, muscles, bone etc all have some level of bullet resistance and become sacrificial to prevent rounds from penetrating anything more important in the core body.

I'm starting to come to this conclusion, as well.

If not for them having an organic brain, a Generation One would really be an android instead of a cyborg. They seem to be closest to the Ghost in the Shell model, where their bodies are totally prosthetic.

However, even the Series 2 seem to be almost fully prosthetic bodies, as well. The only noticeable difference is instead of replacing their endoskeleton with an artificial one, they just strengthen it. So they lack the raw power of a Gen1, but are still more powerful than a normal human. But they specifically note her organs, muscles and skin are artificial, just like a Generation One. So really, Petrushka and Kara are likely as well armored as Triela and Henrietta since I believe that armor is an integral part of their musculature, since the artificial muscle fibers are dense enough to be bullet-resistant.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Wed 27 Jan 2010 - 12:04

@Kiskaloo wrote:
However, even the Series 2 seem to be almost fully prosthetic bodies, as well. The only noticeable difference is instead of replacing their endoskeleton with an artificial one, they just strengthen it. So they lack the raw power of a Gen1, but are still more powerful than a normal human. But they specifically note her organs, muscles and skin are artificial, just like a Generation One. So really, Petrushka and Kara are likely as well armored as Triela and Henrietta since I believe that armor is an integral part of their musculature, since the artificial muscle fibers are dense enough to be bullet-resistant.

However I do think I remember it being stated that the Gen2 girls are less hardy than the Gen1s... hence why I was wondering if the Gen1 girls did incorperate an extra layer of dedicated ballistic protection. If the Gen2 girls are going to be less strong then it would make sense to remove that layer to save weight and decrease stresses on the girls' frames.

Either way, I reckon it makes sense to have an integrated system. I mean, the girls have pretty limited internal volume, so trying to add in stuff that wasn't there before would be, to say the least, difficult... which in some ways might explain the removal of Henrietta's ovaries: it frees up extra internal volume (now in purely weapon design/engineering mode here). To go back to the warship analogy (and this will be a terrible and overly-suspect one), it's like taking out a recreation hall to make way for more magazine space or, I guess a better example, more bunkerage...

...which in turn raises the question of Triela and why she kept hers. Part of me suspects that Triela may be a slightly different build to the other girls. We know she was an early cyborg, with a much longer conditioning process (a year or something?)... so was it a case of they tried one thing with Angie, one with with Triela... and then took the better parts of both for the "production spec" girls? But that's a rambling for another thread.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 27 Jan 2010 - 12:58

@Alfisti wrote:However I do think I remember it being stated that the Gen2 girls are less hardy than the Gen1s... hence why I was wondering if the Gen1 girls did incorperate an extra layer of dedicated ballistic protection. If the Gen2 girls are going to be less strong then it would make sense to remove that layer to save weight and decrease stresses on the girls' frames.

Personally I find that debatable.

Dr. Bergonzi says "They will have different bodies than the previous generation. It won't put lots of stress on the body even when they are in bad condition".

But what does that mean?

That they can take a lot of damage and still work? Which implies the Generation One models can't work if they take too much damage?

Or does it mean that they can function without conditioning medication for extended periods of time? Triela starts to shut down within an hour of missing her dosage in Volume 10 when she runs from Hillshire. Can Petrushka continue to function for hours or even days without a dosage of conditioning medication?

He also notes "We tried not to touch her upper torso". Note the word tried. So it's clear that they did something. I mean in the next two sentences he notes her muscles are artificial and her skeleton was strengthened. So they clearly did some work to her torso, replacing the musculature and strengthening the rib cage, clavicle and spine. He does note her physique will be limited due to her shoulder and thigh joints being "weak", but I am guessing that means they are not fully artificial prosthesis like on Claes (who dislocates her shoulder during testing).

He also notes that "she'll live a long time if she isn't shot by the enemy".

Shot by what? A pistol? An anti-material rifle? A 20mm shell tore Beatrice in half.

And shot where? Elsa went down with a (self-inflicted) pistol shot to the eye.

As to ovaries/uterus, I believe Henrietta suffered so much physical trauma they took them out. But then one imagines they raped Triela something fierce so she'd be damaged there, as well, but perhaps not. It might also be a case of Triela had reached puberty and Henrietta had not, so they left Triela's in so they could continue to produce estrogen and progesterone. For Kara, I noted they left her ovaries intact for this reason, but made her sterile so she could not become pregnant. Perhaps they did the same with Triela.

Then again, ADV claims Claes is taking estrogen pills with her yogurt and Triela has something similar with her in Naples.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Thu 28 Jan 2010 - 12:21

@Kiskaloo wrote:

Dr. Bergonzi says "They will have different bodies than the previous generation. It won't put lots of stress on the body even when they are in bad condition".

But what does that mean?

That they can take a lot of damage and still work? Which implies the Generation One models can't work if they take too much damage?

Good question really. To me it'd suggest a greater level of redundancy in the Gen2 girls. If they're weaker, and not stressing the frame as much then battle damage could be more easily absorbed? I'd be inclined to take it in that way. I mean, the gen1 girls are more powerful... but they're working at the upper-limits of their ability a lot of the time, so as the damage mounts they have to pull back maybe?

@Kiskaloo wrote:
He also notes that "she'll live a long time if she isn't shot by the enemy".

Shot by what? A pistol? An anti-material rifle? A 20mm shell tore Beatrice in half.

And shot where? Elsa went down with a (self-inflicted) pistol shot to the eye.

I took that particular line more to be related to the doses of the conditioning drug given to the girls in place of anesthesia during repairs. Bigger doeses are going to build up in the system faster, reducing the expected lifespans. From memory that's why Hilshire was so keen on preventing Triela from getting shot-up in later volumes, to avoid that massive does of the drug.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 28 Jan 2010 - 12:49

@Alfisti wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:He also notes that "she'll live a long time if she isn't shot by the enemy".

I took that particular line more to be related to the doses of the conditioning drug given to the girls in place of anesthesia during repairs. Bigger doeses are going to build up in the system faster, reducing the expected lifespans. From memory that's why Hilshire was so keen on preventing Triela from getting shot-up in later volumes, to avoid that massive does of the drug.

That does make sense.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by funkmachine on Fri 29 Jan 2010 - 0:56

@Kiskaloo wrote:
And shot where? Elsa went down with a (self-inflicted) pistol shot to the eye.

As to ovaries/uterus, I believe Henrietta suffered so much physical trauma they took them out. But then one imagines they raped Triela something fierce so she'd be damaged there, as well, but perhaps not. It might also be a case of Triela had reached puberty and Henrietta had not, so they left Triela's in so they could continue to produce estrogen and progesterone. For Kara, I noted they left her ovaries intact for this reason, but made her sterile so she could not become pregnant. Perhaps they did the same with Triela.

Then again, ADV claims Claes is taking estrogen pills with her yogurt and Triela has something similar with her in Naples.
the eye has little space for them to add armor and its a thin bit of bone there, but sone type of work on eyes(Triela vs Pinocchio she go a car key to the eye)

henrietta is smaller than triela by a far bit so thay may not of had space for other organs
@Kiskaloo wrote:Dr. Bergonzi says "They will have different bodies than the previous generation. It won't put lots of stress on the body even when they are in bad condition".

But what does that mean?
maybe that as there bodys are bigger and newer:
*bigger and better organs to better clean out the drugs can fit.
*joints, ligaments and Muscles have geater mass to work with,so less stress all round.

and maybe the first gens were built to use Hysterical strength or some thing.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 29 Jan 2010 - 5:14

@funkmachine wrote:the eye has little space for them to add armor and its a thin bit of bone there, but sone type of work on eyes(Triela vs Pinocchio she go a car key to the eye)
The thing is, a car key to the eye will (generally) not penetrate all the way to the brain, unlike how a bullet will. Which explains how Elsa died and Triela didn't. It really has nothing to do with the presence or lack of armor.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by DaGuyEvery1Knows on Fri 5 Feb 2010 - 20:19

I think they should have armor, but not too much. I think the girls need a light bullet-proof vest they can easily wear under their clothes, so if they get shot, they won't need so much repairing, and it's kinda sad seeing them shot up Sad
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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by zarien85 on Sat 21 Aug 2010 - 16:27

ya i agree the clothes idea is good for protection and fashion

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Schaschanist on Mon 3 Jan 2011 - 15:15

Does anybody noticed, that we are talking about 'humans' ?
Before you can armor them like some are thinking, they needed to be lacerated into pieces.
Sounds hard, but thats the point.

You have just to cut off and out everything and open the whole body.

I don't think that a normal person would survive that torture.
We are speaking about living flesh and organs that can get infects.

My opinion:
Don't take it so realistic! It just science fiction pared with thriller, action and some fan service.
There is some realistic in it, but i think we are many many many years away from that idea Yu is showing in GSG.

And forgot the terminator.
It's a programmed robot and not a modified human. There is nothing realistic in that construction or story.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 3 Jan 2011 - 16:07

@schaschanist wrote:Does anybody noticed, that we are talking about 'humans'?

In many ways, I'm not sure we are. As I noted up-thread, these girls are more androids than cyborgs.

We know their brains are still biological, but most of their other systems are not. We know they amputate the arms and legs and replace them with prosthetics. It also appears they replace most of the connective musculature for the limbs with artificial muscles, as well. We also know the "organs" are artificial, but it is not fully clear if all the organs are replaced or not. The girls eat, so do they have their original gastrointestinal system? They do in my OC universe, but that is a personal decision.

But how are the girl's systems powered? Do they use chemical energy like our biological systems, or are they electrically-powered? There has never been a mention of a power supply, battery system or a need for "shore power" to recharge, so one guesses their artificial systems are powered by chemical energy (hence the girls still have to eat food).

Claes has an artificial heart, though it looks like a normal human heart on the MRI. So it is likely the girls have artificial hearts that are modeled on their original biological model, but using artificial muscles to improve pumping action. So does that mean the lungs are artificial? Liver? Kidneys?

I've come to the point that I now just treat it as "handwavium" and do my best to write around it. If I had to pin it down, I'd say they are a Ghost in the Shell style artificial body, but they transplant the original brain inside instead of doing a memory dump.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by theprodigalson on Mon 3 Jan 2011 - 16:28

I always saw androids as being part-human part-machine and cyborgs being human with artificially made parts.

In the case of an android, her machine parts are very noticeably machine - they look metallic and require machine-like servicing.

In the case of a cyborg, artificial parts are made to emulate and improve upon her already existing natural systems. I would say in the world of GsG, diet is important for the cyborgs since the doctors went the the extra effort to control Claes' eating habits.

Like Kisk implied there is alot of gray area. For my part, it wouldn't take a whole lot of effort to make me accept other views Smile .

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by ChaosKin640 on Mon 3 Jan 2011 - 16:34

The term android refers to a humanoid robot. There is no biological tissue involved. Cyborgs are otherwise ordinary humans who have been augmented in some way by mechanical implants.
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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Schaschanist on Mon 3 Jan 2011 - 16:50

@Kiskaloo wrote:
In many ways, I'm not sure we are. As I noted up-thread, these girls are more androids than cyborgs.

We know their brains are still biological, but most of their other systems are not. We know they amputate the arms and legs and replace them with prosthetics. It also appears they replace most of the connective musculature for the limbs with artificial muscles, as well. We also know the "organs" are artificial, but it is not fully clear if all the organs are replaced or not. The girls eat, so do they have their original gastrointestinal system? They do in my OC universe, but that is a personal decision.

I think, it would be easier and less expensive to build complete androids than turn a human into a cyborg.
If only the brain is the human-part on the girls. it would be easy to replace them.
Just build in another brain in the old body.
But that idea sound ridiculous or ridiculously inhuman!
So why they need the whole girl? The only need it's brain.

I really really hate that thought, but that's my view about this theory.


I agree with your OC world.
Emilie is a enhanced human being with erased memories (only Etienne knows her past).
She needs to eat, go to toilet and sleep and has her own quirks .
In a later point of my story, she gets the truth about her being and begins to worry about her life at the agency and cries and Etienne tries to solace her.
They have a very special relationship. He knows her since she was a baby cause she is the daughter of Etienne's best childhhood friend. She is like a daughter for him, cause he had seen her growing up.
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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 3 Jan 2011 - 18:21

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@schaschanist wrote:Does anybody noticed, that we are talking about 'humans'?

In many ways, I'm not sure we are. As I noted up-thread, these girls are more androids than cyborgs.
Android, like ChoasKin640 said, is an artificial lifeform with an electronic or artifical brain.


@Kiskaloo wrote:We know their brains are still biological, but most of their other systems are not. We know they amputate the arms and legs and replace them with prosthetics. It also appears they replace most of the connective musculature for the limbs with artificial muscles, as well. We also know the "organs" are artificial, but it is not fully clear if all the organs are replaced or not. The girls eat, so do they have their original gastrointestinal system? They do in my OC universe, but that is a personal decision.

But how are the girl's systems powered? Do they use chemical energy like our biological systems, or are they electrically-powered? There has never been a mention of a power supply, battery system or a need for "shore power" to recharge, so one guesses their artificial systems are powered by chemical energy (hence the girls still have to eat food).
That would depend on what was replaced. I covered most of this with SWA Beginnings: Francesca, showing the evolution of technology over the years.

@Kiskaloo wrote:Claes has an artificial heart, though it looks like a normal human heart on the MRI. So it is likely the girls have artificial hearts that are modeled on their original biological model, but using artificial muscles to improve pumping action. So does that mean the lungs are artificial? Liver? Kidneys?
Certain organs are required and are not reproducable in a lab. The liver does too many things that it can not be replicated artifically. The Ovaries are part of the female's hormonial system and without them, the testoserone and adrenaline from the Adrinal glands would run without control and you will end up with a violent individual. Other organs are just too complex or unknown to deal with. Like What does a Spleen does? Dont know but it is easy to rupture with a blow to the stomach, and quickly becomes a fatal situation. I have to disagree that Claes' heart is artifical, no matter how many times I see it or it is said, it is too real to be considered artificial in my view.

Cybernetic organisms are just that, a mixture of digital/electronic and biological systems making an individual whole. Androids are artificail constructs with nothing biological to them outside of their appearence. Check out Chiobits or StarTrek's Data.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by FearTheLASERFACE on Mon 3 Jan 2011 - 19:07

Hey, I wonder if you could undo everything. That'd be interesting.
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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 3 Jan 2011 - 19:09

I'm quite aware of what an android and a cyborg are and have noted such in my posts. I'm not implying the girls are androids, for they clearly do not meet the dictionary definition of being an android.

And while they meet the dictionary definition of a cyborg, they don't meet the "classic sci-fi" definition of one - the T800 Terminator or the Borg. They are a very unique mix of technologies brought together to create a unique end-product to the point that if you asked Yu to describe how they work, he'd throw up his hands and go "damned if I know". Smile


@FearTheLASERFACE wrote:Hey, I wonder if you could undo everything. That'd be interesting.

It's a wonder the girls survive the original surgeries, considering the condition a number of them have been brought in. I am inclined to believe the procedure is irreversible even if the conditioning medicine was not a complication.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by ChaosKin640 on Mon 3 Jan 2011 - 19:16

Not to nit-pick or anything, but the T800 wasn't a cyborg; he was a straight-up android. Star Trek's borg, on the other hand, are indeed cyborgs. Hence their name.
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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 3 Jan 2011 - 20:29

@FearTheLASERFACE wrote:Hey, I wonder if you could undo everything. That'd be interesting.
The cyber implants are what's keeping most of those girls alive. Undo everything and it's curtains for them.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Officer_Charon on Mon 3 Jan 2011 - 20:31

Lacy, gently wafting curtains...

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 3 Jan 2011 - 20:44

@ChaosKin640 wrote:Not to nit-pick or anything, but the T800 wasn't a cyborg; he was a straight-up android.

The T-800 / Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 did have an organic covering and was explicitly referred to as a cyborg by Kyle Reese in the original movie.

The T-1000, T-1001 and T-X would not be cyborgs as they had no organic parts.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 3 Jan 2011 - 22:48

@FearTheLASERFACE wrote:Hey, I wonder if you could undo everything. That'd be interesting.
No. That's one thing I touched on on Solution's Resolution and the Acorn Cafe did with Gunslinger Bink. In the least, if you remove the extremities replaced by cybernetics, you would have a quadra-amputee. Remove the internal organs that were replaced, they would not have a chance to live outside the surgery room without advanced life support systems.

In Gunslinger Bink, many of the Acorn Cafe members thought that "Bink" could be rescued and her cybernetics removed. When it turns out that it could not happen, the story went into a nose die as far a s members are concerned and flame wars erupted. With the help of Hondo, we are preserving the Gunslinger Bink series and continuing with it as best as we can.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by ChaosKin640 on Wed 5 Jan 2011 - 9:09

The T-800 / Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 did have an organic covering and was explicitly referred to as a cyborg by Kyle Reese in the original movie.
Eh, I guess that's a matter of opinion then. As far as I'm concerned, the T-800 was just an android in a meat-suit. If the biological components are not explicitly neccessary for the unit to operate, then its not a cyborg. The T-800 is perfectly capable of walking around and killing things without its organic coating; the coating simply allows it to undertake infiltration missions. That makes it an android. Things like the Borg, or own own gunslinger girls, still need their biological parts, which makes them cyborgs.
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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Schaschanist on Wed 5 Jan 2011 - 10:04

I think most of the armor is on the body.
What should that protect at the limbs?
Most important is to protect the living organs which are keeping the human in the girl alive. They must be protected with some layers of kevlar under the skin or meat.
The skeleton is made of carbon but i think the human core (neck and head) are still bones.
Otherwise you could implant a chip and have a android and not a cyborg.
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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 5 Jan 2011 - 10:20

If your limb bones break, you're incapacitated. It would therefore make sense to armor the limbs.

A cyborg's skull is probably armored to a certain extent, too. Case in point: Rico once took a shot to her head without so much as flinching.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by theprodigalson on Wed 5 Jan 2011 - 12:07

@Kiskaloo wrote:As I noted up-thread, these girls are more androids than cyborgs.

@Kiskaloo wrote:I'm quite aware of what an android and a cyborg are and have noted such in my posts. I'm not implying the girls are androids, for they clearly do not meet the dictionary definition of being an android.

My mistake. I was just posting my own (now clearly incorrect) definition of cyborg and android. No offense meant.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 5 Jan 2011 - 12:42

@schaschanist wrote:I think most of the armor is on the body. What should that protect at the limbs?

The girls use their arms as shields to protect their eyes (the most vulnerable part of their body as it allows direct access for weapons to their brains), so I would expect they and the legs are well-armored through the CFRP musculature. Since they replace the limbs, I would expect they use titanium for the "bones" to provide greater strength and resilience.

As for the torso and skull, the Gen 2's appear to keep their original skeleton, just with upgrading (perhaps carbon nanotubes applied by nanites). Personally, I expect it is the same with the Gen 1's, as replacing their complete skeletal system with an artificial one strikes me as far, far too invasive.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Schaschanist on Wed 5 Jan 2011 - 13:02

It's absolute not logical with the 1st gens.
Their bodies seems to be just completely artificial.
It looks like it is a bioengineered bionic machine, but the only needed human-part is the brain and the organs to keep the brain alive.
The rest of the original human body is for trash..
Sounds hard but i think this brings it to the point!

But this is ridiculous inhuman, absolutely disturbing and fucking disgusting and i dont will belief this fact!
For me they were, are and still will be enhanced humans and not biomechanic-robots with a human controlling-unit.
Sorry but at this point the sorry becomes more than illogically.
Here the theory of the 2nd gens is more believable than the theory of the 1st gens and makes more sense.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 5 Jan 2011 - 13:26

Yu has never really said much about the architecture of the first generation units. We've seen Henrietta's shoulder and Triela's replacement leg, and that is about it.

It's only with the introduction of the 2nd Gens (via Petrushka) that he's said anything about what goes into developing them and even that is a "top level" overview. So it's all pretty much speculation on our part and each author has chosen their own architectural path for the girls in their OC universes.

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Re: Armoring the Cyborgs

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