What's with the Conditioning?

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What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Sun 25 Nov 2007 - 22:13

I was wondering about this lately. From our discussions and stuff on ffnet is seems that the conditioning:
A - Makes the girls obedient to their handlers' orders
B - Makes them have deep feelings for their handlers
C - Prevents them from harming members of SWA
D - Gives them basic knowledge and abilities in killing
E - Shortens lifespan
F - Erases memories (?)

Now the conditioning levels play out more or less like so:
Rico - high
Else - high
Angelica - high or medium (imperfect)
Claes - originally proubably low or medium but now higher/undefined
Henrietta - low
Triela - low

The girls which seem to have the most intense feelings for their handlers are Henrietta, Triela, but also Elsa. It's split high/low.

As far as obeying commands is concerned. Henrietta freaks out multiple times in defense of Jose. Rico lies to Jean. Triela shoots the questioning guy , lets Mario escape (Hillshire knows about this, but Triela doesn't know he knew so she consciously acted against his orders). In this case Rico's lie isn't much evidence in comparison to her usual obedience, so we can assume that A is proportional to conditioning.

Memories: The level of conditioning does not seem
proportional with this at all. Rico with the most remembers everything.
Henrietta who has the least is getting forgetful. Triela doesn't seem
to have memory problems, but her past seems to have been buried (it can
come back up, like in her dream on the opperating table)

Elsa, who had a high dosage or conditioning, killed her handler. Henrietta thretened the same thing. The conditioning seems to be contradicted yet again.

The theory that has been devceloping in my head is that the conditioning creates a very strong bond. Now, this may seem pretty obvious, but I mean bond in the most neutral sense - it's a flexible/adaptible thing. I think the cyborgs are extremely sensetive to their handlers actions and adopt accordingly.

If this is true then Henrietta's obsession with Jose is simply a reflection of his obssessively "caring" attitude twoards her. I'm sure Claes has warm feelings for Raballo, but they are far calmer and more distanced in accordance to Raballo's nature and approach. She even adopted a split personality practically because he asked her to. Rico is obedient in a simple straight-forward fashion to what Jean says, that's the way he treats her. We really don't know what Rico thinks of Jean because ther isn't a single mention of this in the manga, but she definantly isn't obsesed with him like Henrietta, and doesn't seem nearly as intent on pleasing him (she executes his orders, but expects nothng in return except staying alive and functional). Triela is a bit more difficult. Hillshire is definitely protective and warm twoards Triela, but is this enough to inspire those feelings. This case may be quite natural. Shes about 15 now, and he is the dominating male influance in her life, the person she spends the most time with, and the one who is kindest twoards her.

Anyway, I'm not sure about any of this, and it's possible I actually contradict myself, but I was interested waht you guys think.


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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 25 Nov 2007 - 22:24

As stated in the Manga with Petrushka- "Conditioning is like hypnotism."

Well, I'll agree to some of that. Condictioning comes in several parts:

Conditional Writing/Rewriting: This is where the girls go through a brainwashing process to make them forget their pasts (if needed), accept the SWA as their new homes, accept their handlers as... well... that depends, but I would say uncondictionally as their partner. It is also to get them started on their cyborg implants.

Medical Condictioning: Its the drug that the girls take daily for 1) working with their implants. many things can happen here- from phamtom limb syndrome to cyborg parts rejection. It can also lessen the pain that they may have. 2) reinforces the condictional mental response originally given. It is this part that the high/low part comes into play. Each handler determines the dosage to some extent, but are required to give them some medication so that they use their cyborg implants.

Physical Condictioning: The actual training that the cyborgs get to learn how to use their cyborg implants. Is some rare cases, beating is used in this part (See Jean/Rico).

Consider if the condictioning drug was Heroine. A junkie (especailly a female junkie) will do anything for a fix from her dealer... Condictioning does that but the extremes are blurred.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Totoum on Sun 25 Nov 2007 - 22:49

She even adopted a split personality practically because he asked her to.

As stated in the rogue cyborg thread,it's way more complicated than that,forget episode 12,no way manga Claes acts that way.
And IMO even her obeying Rabbello isn't due to her conditioning,but to the fact she had developed a real affection towards him.
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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Sun 25 Nov 2007 - 23:23

Just noticed the order of the poijnts was screwed up. Fixed it.

ElfenMagix wrote:Physical Condictioning: The actual training that the cyborgs get to learn how to use their cyborg implants. Is some rare cases, beating is used in this part (See Jean/Rico).
I still insist that this is in no way part of any specialized program. Jean seems to use it as a disciplin method just like every other parent that does. There is no special program or policy involved, and that definitely doesn't help with adopting to cyborg parts. From what is known Rico is beaten for a reason and not as a rule. Jean is also seen scorning her at least several times in the manga, but does not use force in those instances, so it is not as if he has a temper and makes it a regular practice.

Totoum wrote:
As stated in the rogue cyborg thread,it's way more complicated than that,forget episode 12,no way manga Claes acts that way.
And IMO even her obeying Rabbello isn't due to her conditioning,but to the fact she had developed a real affection towards him.
Well. This is a tough one. One of the big themes in GSG is what the difference is between real and "induced" emotions and how can you tell them appart.

Claes isn't any more or less obedient then the average cyborg. When she is told to stay at the schooting range untill she can hit every time she stays there untill she is told otherwise, but just about any cyborg would.

The main thing I was getting at is that the conditioning is flexible. It makes the girls have a strong connection to their handlers, but where it goes from there depends on the handler and cyborgs characters, and how the relationship is worked out. The point I was trying to make is that the cyborg will adopt to their handlers. This is only normal, even for regular people. The difference is that the cyborg is tied to the handler and has to obey (to whatever extent), and because of the strength of the bond is far more sensitive to her handler's emotions and actions.

On some other thread I pointed out the similarities in characters between the cyborgs and handlers. This may be partially because they chose girls that suited them in some way, the rest is adaptation. I'll go reread the rouge cyborg thread, but it seems to me that Raballo asked Claes to be her gentle self when she wears the glasses and that's what she put into practice.

To quickly recount the cyborg/handler similarity thing:

Henrietta: As obsessed about Jose as Jose is about his sister. Emotional like Jose.

Rico: Cold, efficinet, and straight forward in business. Her past haunts her like Jeans and shapes her character/actions. Pain inside, persona on outside.

Triela: Thinking for herself, not necesarily going by the book (Hillshire got himself fired this way). Takes care of other cyborgs, wants to do something good/ imporve the world [see Mimi sub-src]. (This is the reason Hillshire saved her, and went on the unauthorised mission in the first place)

Angelica: Can't say much about her, since she has her memory problems.

Claes: Quiet, introspective, thoughtful, likes books, likes gardening. (Raballo has all those character traits)

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 25 Nov 2007 - 23:44

The condictioning is flexible because each handler gives their cyborg their own doses besides the minimum amount. In Vol.3 / Chptr 16, Angie breaks Priscilla's wrist/arm when her condiction drug wore off and she went into withdrawl before she passes out. To do that much unintentional harm, she had to be a in a lot of pain.

Like Henrietta and Triela, Marco uses a minimal dosage on Angie. Angie running out of meds on the field was bad, because Marco did not know what her new minimum was and under dosed her. If he know what that new minimum was, he would have treated Angie accordingly. Angie always seemed to have been on a low dosage,and she above them all has been the most loyal of the cyborgs to Marco, because she was always truthful to him (when she remembers). Unfortunately, her unintentional memory wipe caused by her condictional rewrite (why it was done- I dont know- it should not have because she was fine without it) is the source of her problems. Marco never had to use high levels of condictioning on Angie to make her like him. She liked him from the beginning, and does until the end. She does however, knows that their relationship is is trouble and does not know why, which is why she tries so hard to please him.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Totoum on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 0:16

3Klicks,I basicly agree with everything you say,my thinking on the glasses being a particular case is that Rabello told her it wasn't an order but a promise,and Claes remembers it even if she's forgotten about Rabello and all the orders she's ever gotten from him.
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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 0:36

ElfenMagix wrote:The condictioning is flexible because each handler
gives their cyborg their own doses besides the minimum amount.
I don't think this is it. The conditioning is not, for the most part, a
precision program. It is designed to put the handler at the center of
the cyborgs life (and does). It's not just a matter of dosage. All the
girls correspond to their handlers (unless I'm totally wrong),
regardless of their level of conditioning.

Triela had a lot of
problems because she was trying ot figure out what Hillshire wants her
to be. Every person needs to find a way to interact with other people,
and for the cyborgs finding out how to interact with their handlers is
a necessity, that is contributed to by the drug, other forms of conditioning, and the fact that they work with them constantly.

Elsa
short circuited, not because Lauro was actively mean to her. He did not
slap her around or tell her she's pathetic. He denied her the
communication that she desperately needs, that her normal human nature
requires and that the drug strengthens manyforld.

Rico is shown
little affection, but doesn't experience any problems at all(her
conditioning is at the same high level as Elsa's). She gets regular,
open contact. Cold contact is unconditionally better then no contact,
and it's enough.

Totoum wrote:3Klicks,I basicly agree with everything you say,my thinking on the
glasses being a particular case is that Rabello told her it wasn't an
order but a promise,and Claes remembers it even if she's forgotten
about Rabello and all the orders she's ever gotten from him.
That's
true. It's not like it was an order. I would still say that everything
a handler says sinks deep in and stays for the syborgs. See the "like
they've just seen a God. Like they're subconsciusly hoping for orgers."
thing that Alessandro says. I guess there's not much point debating
points like this because there's hardly any evidence. But, that's the
problem. You can never be sure what's conditioning and what's not, and
then you still don't know wheather there is something so unnatural
about the conditioning. It's all chemistry after all.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 0:56

3klicks wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:The condictioning is flexible because each handler gives their cyborg their own doses besides the minimum amount.
I don't think this is it. The conditioning is not, for the most part, a
precision program. It is designed to put the handler at the center of
the cyborgs life (and does). It's not just a matter of dosage. All the
girls correspond to their handlers (unless I'm totally wrong),
regardless of their level of conditioning.

Each handler gives his cyborg a specific amount of the condictioning drug. The problem is how much. There is a set minimum to where each girl must have because it helps with their issues of being a cyborg. But any additional condictional medication depends on how much the handlers want from their cyborgs, or what they believe that they can get.

If Theory plays out right (which I'm using in my fanfict), the higher the dosage, the more loyalty but the dumber the cyborg, but also the least maintenence needs she will need. In short, you get nothing more than a trained attack dog on a leash if you over dose your girls. The less the condictioning drug- the more intelligent the girl you will have but she will also have assorted emotional baggage to deal with.

Looking at Rico (High Dose) and Henrietta (Low Dose);

Rico is loyal to her handler, and is 'happy' all the time because Jean has her on a high dosage. But to solve problems and issues on the field? Rico is a doer who follows orders exactly, she cant exactly try to solve problems on her own. She just knows enough to just get by and at times that is not enough. The poor girl is stoned on the meds. She is even happy when she has been smacked around by Jean!

Henrietta is full of emotional baggage and acts out on her own as she thinks she may need to. In the first epsiode of both the manga and the anime, Jose was lucky to have her. She saw a danger in the guy attacking Jose- she defended him. OK, that turned into a big mess. But it was his fault- HE FROZE! She acted. But her low dosage keeps her as a free thinker- a problem solver on the field and as a taker of action. Not neccessary one who follows orders extacly, but gets the job done as she fits. The problem here is that she is full of emotions that Jose does not know how to deal with. The only answer to this is to up her dosage, which he does not want to do.


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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Sintendo on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 1:01

ElfenMagix wrote:
Henrietta is full of emotional baggage and acts out on her own as she thinks she may need to. In the first epsiode of both the manga and the anime, Jose was lucky to have her. She saw a danger in the guy attacking Jose- she defended him. OK, that turned into a big mess. But it was his fault- HE FROZE! She acted. But her low dosage keeps her as a free thinker- a problem solver on the field and as a taker of action. Not neccessary one who follows orders extacly, but gets the job done as shhe fits. The problem here is that she is full of emotions that Jose does not know how to deal with. The only answer to this is to up her dosage, which he does not want to do.

Reminds me of the time she, Guiseppe, Triela and Hilshire raided that mansion and when Henrietta posed as the lost little girl. Think it was her idea or Jose's?
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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 1:14

I'm of the opinion that she picked it up from one of the other girls.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 1:24

I get the dosage = loyalty part. (Although both the Elsa incident and Rico lying seem to say otherwise. As you have pointed out Angelica is very faithful to Marco, even without too mcuh drug) What I'm saying is that dosage does not equal love, does not equal happiness, does not equal definite memory loss. And also all the girls whatever their conditioning level have the handler as the center of their life, and take notice of his actions/character. See the Allesandro thing.

I'm not sure whether Henrietta is a good example. Jose was not in danger. The guy thought that he was just a reporter and wanted to scare him away. The real problem begins when the cover's blown and people draw their gund to kill.

As far a as emotional baggage is concerned Henrietta wanted to kill herself in the hospital, then her memory was wiped and the emotional baggage went away.

Rico's happiness doesn't seem like the result of the drug either. First of all Rico is the only girl who actually remembers what her previous life was like. If any of the girls have any emotional baggage it's her, who can recall every instant (or at least as much as the average person) of her previous life. She has a positive personality, but the drug does not stop her from having nightmares and crying at nigth.

I also don't remember Jose freezing. He didn't make any agressive gestures, but said something along the lines of "ok, ok" and made a submisive face the average reporter would make.

ElfenMagix wrote:She is even happy when she has been smacked around by Jean!
It's all a relative matter. All depends on your system of values. As I said before Rico got smacked around and all Lauro did was be silent. Elsa shot herself (and him) because he was silent and didn't recognize her existance, she would have given a lot to get smacked around by Lauro (however wrong this sounds). She simply remembers what her alternative is. If Henrietta remembered herself on that wheel chair missing an arm, leg and an eye, and remembered that night, she would be greatful for this life no matter what they made her do. I know that given the choice I'd prefer rough treatment then being in a state like that.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 2:39

ElfenMagix wrote:She is even happy when she has been smacked around by Jean!
This bit I put down to Rico knowing it was her fault that brought about the punishment in the first place, and therefore not taking it negatively. My interpretation of her 'happy' expression is that it was a sheepish-type smile.

3klicks wrote:All Lauro did was be silent. Elsa shot herself (and him) because he was silent and didn't recognize her existance, she would have given a lot to get smacked around by Lauro (however wrong this sounds).
For all we know, Lauro may have been more abusive than met the eye. I prefer to think that this was the case - it takes a lot more than just cold, dismissive treatment for someone to commit murder and off themself, if you ask me.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by LoC978 on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 2:53

Nachtsider wrote:it takes a lot more than just cold, dismissive treatment for someone to commit murder and off themself, if you ask me.
...I'd beg to differ on that one. I've seen some whacked-out shit. It depends on the person, of course, but with an extremely obsessive personality... I've seen a woman go after a man with a baseball bat over a minor hesitation in answering a question. If she had been as hardened to killing as Elsa, I don't doubt she would've killed him. Add any drug in on top of that (even caffiene. I'm not joking), and you have a recipe for murder. In the case of an obsessed woman in 'love'... it's a recipe for a murder-suicide.
-insecurity makes high-strung people do things that natrually calm people can only scratch their heads in wonder at.
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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 4:30


Regardless of how much people like to think it, physical abuse in no way contributes to the quality of a cyborgs performance. Look at Triela - she’s the best there is. In vol.4, Giorgio called her the “child prodigy” and the “star pupil”. And you know what? No one ever beats on her. Ever since the days of the old forum people have been advocating Jeans abusive behavior. They constantly bring up this master/sensei bullshit. And that’s just what it is - bullshit. It’s nothing more then an attempt to justify a character flaw in him. Has anyone ever thought that if Jean had taken a page out of Hillshire’s training manuel, it might have been Rico training Triela instead of the other way around? According to Aida, the girls have limited life spans which means Triela wont be around forever. Who’s going to take her place? Rico? I don’t think so. It will be Henrietta. She’s the rising star in the Agency and why is that? Jose’s non-abusive training.

OK, now I’m ready to have everyone dog pile me and tell me what a wonderful an magical thing it is to have an adult beat up a child.



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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 4:51

LoC978 wrote:...I'd beg to differ on that one.

Okay, LoC, fine - I confess everything. Elsa's one of my favorite characters (I was one of the first few to present her as an upright but tortured anti-heroine and dismiss the widespread early opinion that she was a bitch just because she dissed everyone's darling Henrietta), and I'm not really one for accepting anything that downplays her suffering and makes it seem as though she was a weakling who couldn't hack it just because Lauro didn't pay her attention. My stories have Lauro deal Elsa severe corporal punishment after Episode Nine's failed sniping mission, primarily for shaming him - this I present as the final stressor of many others that drove her to breaking point.

Henrietta's performance hasn't really struck me as exceptional, Danjo - her emotionality tends to get in the way, and those marksmanship abilities seem pretty average as far as special-forces personnel go. But yeah - she might improve given time. I regard Rico as being a more worthy successor in terms of combat skill, but neither she nor Henrietta appear to have developed the leadership qualities inherent in the Princess.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by LoC978 on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 10:23

hoo boy... here we go...
Danjo3 wrote:Triela - she’s the best there is. In vol.4, Giorgio called her the “child prodigy” and the “star pupil”. And you know what? No one ever beats on her.
... actually, that bit in bold up there is entirely false:
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
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Danjo3 wrote:They constantly bring up this master/sensei bullshit. It’s nothing more then an attempt to justify a character flaw in him.
Ah, the infamous they. Stop generalizing. That's me you speak of. Just say it. I swear I won't be any more or less offended. You're attacking my idea, not me.
Danjo3 wrote:Has anyone ever thought that if Jean had taken a page out of Hillshire’s training manuel, it might have been Rico training Triela instead of the other way around?
Hillshire's training method, in this case, is to bring in someone more qualified than himself to train her. Jean simply doesn't spend enough time with Rico to make her that good at it (and he conditions the shit out of her so she can't think independantly like Triela does). He has other duties.
Danjo3 wrote:She’s the rising star in the Agency and why is that?
'rising star'? what kinda linear-thinking (insert typical shonen series here)-esqe bullshit is that? these aren't actual middle school kids; they don't get 'graded'. They're assassins; they just kill, and live or die. So far, none have died in the field. Does Henrietta or Rico mess up more often than Triela? We don't know, we don't see every mission. there's more to this series than "ZOMG! HIGH SKILL LEVEL! SHE KILL BAD GUY!" Come off it.
Danjo3 wrote:OK, now I’m ready to have everyone dog pile me and tell me what a wonderful an magical thing it is to have an adult beat up a child.
These are no mere children. If the Social Welfare Agency was merely rehabilitating these girls in the name of medical progress, I would be with you on this one. However, even Hillshire sees that Triela gets hand-to-hand training, and hand-to-hand training means getting hit(see above links). You think kids learning a martial art in real life don't get hit? I did, and I'm tougher for it.
Nachtsider wrote:I'm not really one for accepting anything that downplays her suffering and makes it seem as though she was a weakling who couldn't hack it just because Lauro didn't pay her attention.
I don't see her as a weakling so much as talent that was wasted by Lauro's neglect. I saw her as was very proficient, despite Lauro's lack of in-depth training.
Nachtsider wrote:Henrietta's performance hasn't really struck me as exceptional...
... but neither she nor Henrietta appear to have developed the leadership qualities inherent in the Princess.
noone is going to replace Triela when she's gone (and I happen to think that she's going to outlast Rico, possibly Henrietta as well, simply because she doesn't get injured/take heavy doses of conditioning as often). Triela has rare talent, and the SWA will be taking a horrible loss when she's gone.
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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 11:21


Whoa, LoC978! Take it easy buddy. When I said they , that’s what I meant - they. I could not for the life of me remember who made master/sensei comments, I just know that they were made. I didn’t mean that last post to be an attack on you.

I’m sorry if I offended you, and you make some very good points concerning physical abuse:


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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by LoC978 on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 11:30

ah. I see. It's just that you used rather strong language in refuting one of my theories... and I've actually made this exact point before. I suppose I just get annoyed when I have to repeat myself.
It's cool, though.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 11:50

LoC978 wrote:ah. I see. It's just that you used rather strong language in refuting one of my theories... and I've actually made this exact point before. I suppose I just get annoyed when I have to repeat myself.
It's cool, though.
Thank you for your understanding LoC978. I to hate to repeat myself, especially when I’m talking about fucked up theories that no one gives a shit about.

But as you said, it’s cool.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 14:34

Nchtsider wrote:This bit I put down to Rico knowing it was her fault that brought about
the punishment in the first place, and therefore not taking it
negatively. My interpretation of her 'happy' expression is that it was
a sheepish-type smile.
This is a simple and resonable answer. I'd go with it.

Nachtsider wrote:For all we know, Lauro may have been more abusive than met the eye. I prefer to think that this was the case - it takes a lot more than just cold, dismissive treatment for someone to commit murder and off themself, if you ask me.
You have to remember that these are children. It works very differently from adults who have developed independent personalities. Chidren have a need (a necessity) of contact with a parental figure if they are going to be kept sane and healthy.

Now, I know the girls know how to do plenty of things themselves, but as far as psychology is concerned their ego's (or what not: their vision of themselves as individuals) in not Complete. In the case of a child being ignored by the central figure in their lives is a very powerful blow.

Above all people have a need to understand. I'll use the example of rats or dogs. I assure you it's transfereable. If a rat is given an electric shock when it does one thing and food when it does another, it will learn to do the second thing it and will continue to do increasingly difficult things and try intensively even when the task is pretty much inachievable (for a rat). This is a situation in which there is order and clarity. If you have that then hardship is a hell of a lot easier to bear.

Now if that rat is given shocks and food randomly (for example it gets two levers to press) then it quickly develops a neurosis (goes nuts).
Jean is hard to please, but it is possible and it is very clear what has to be done to achieve that. Lauro on the other hand was downright impossible to please./get a reaction from. A situation in which something is hard is barable, a situation in which you don't have a solution to a central problem so you cannot act (you simply have to suffer the continuing situation) is downright underable, and not finding any solution within the noramal range, people start choosing irrational solutions simply for the sake of order, for the sake of finding something that they can do to try to alleviate their pain. Why do you think people hurt themselves. It's not because they trully believe it will solve their problems, but because having something to do that may (even if the possibility is miniscule) help is reasuring adn better then sitting adn suffering dumbfounded.


Yeah - I have no idea where the "rising star" thing is comming from.


As to the "justifying Jean" part and the use of "they" I can proubably count myself in to that lot. Although, I want to make it clear that I don't think beating is a great thing. It is a resonable tool in teaching when used resonably. It's best when it is not used, but when it is it's not something particularly special. Used by many parents, and I'm not sure that it can be said to be crewel. There are a lot worse things that happen to the girls. Emotional pain is a lot harder to deal with then shortlived phisical pain. I'd go for the first instead of the second any day. When you are punished for a reason that you know, and in a fashion that is uniform it is preffereable to a screwed up emotional world.

To tell the truth I wish I had been punished in a way as uniform and standardised as Jean's punishments. I would be less of a whimp and, perhaps, would have some more discipline. I said this before, but, the worst part is not the beating it is the fear of the beating. If it is systematic and uniform there is a lot less fear. If you don't know just how many times you'll be hit, or for how long you're going to be beaten it is pretty damn scarry.


My argument can be sumerised as a rebutal to tha all too common idea of setting Jean aside as "The evil one". All the handlers are acting in an immoral fashion by working for the SWA. Jean is has his faults, but then so do all the other handlers (Hillshire does actually stand out as a good guy, but not perfect). And I would aregue that these faults are not lesse. For example, Jose's realationship with Henrietta is pretty screwed up and it's his fault, but this is less aperent so it's practically ignored.


I should learn to compress my thoughts. Then again, there was a lot to respond to.


As for Triela, and the effectiveness of her training, do remember that she is simply older then the other girls. Her adaptability is partially because of the low conditioning, but also partially because of her age. If you campare 8th graders to 10th or 11th graders you will see that the second group is more self sufficient and there will be nothing surprising about that. The expectations, put on the younger girls are quite straining considering their age.

[edit] Damit, is the formating wrong again. Is there an [] tag for tab?

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 18:01

There is basically 4 types of abuse one can do to another:

Physical- Beating, burnings, scaring, whipping, forced labour, etc...
Mental- Constantly telling somebody that they are no good, wont amount to anything, not good enough, etc.
Emotional: Very much like Mental with a touch of Physical abuse, to get the abused person to react in a depresssed or negative way to themselves. It can go as simply as to not being supportive, or returning some respect and perhaps love.
Sexual- Forcing the abused person to doing sexaul acts.

(Mind you , these are just the basic definitions... they are more multifacetted than they seem to be simplistic here.)

The thing with Jean/Lauro and perhaps some others, they conduct themselves in the top 3: Physical/Mental/Emotional abuse on thhe girls. Alessandro might push it to sexual. The point is when does pushing somebody to do good in training so that they do good in the feild crosses the line into abuse?

With Jean, its physical and mental abuse on Rico. She may not answer too well to the mental stuff since- admit it guys, she just came out of a hostpital where she was there all her life- how much of an education is she going to get even though she is to be provided a tutor to at least learn the basics of communications and maybe some math and history.

With Lauro, its mental and emotional. Mental, because he was also hard on her, constantly reminding her to do things (though it seems that she may be going through the forgetful stage that Angie went through), and telling her that she better do well on her jobs. On the emotional side-we all know he was hard on her in that respect. He he would have been more supportative, even in the tinyiest of ways to Elsa, she would not had taken it out on him.

Damn... train of thought just derailed... with a huge fire and lots of casaulties...

OK, I think I got it back on track.

The first part of the condictioning, is when the girls go through the brainwashing and reprogramming- that is where they get their basic attachment to their handlers, which is heavy. The drug only suppliments and reinforces that bond, as seen with Marco when Angie collasped in Vol.3- the handlers have to give the cyborgs the shot everyday. No one is just going to give you an arm just like that so you can inject them- that part is programmed into them. Claes either gets her injection fromthe medical staff, Jean or gives it herself. Then the drug does its own thing to make the bond stronger with the cyborgs and handlers.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 18:51

ElfenMagix wrote:With Jean, its physical and mental abuse on Rico. She may not answer
too well to the mental stuff since- admit it guys, she just came out of
a hostpital where she was there all her life- how much of an education
is she going to get even though she is to be provided a tutor to at
least learn the basics of communications and maybe some math and
history.
From the definition of mental abuse you gave above it's:
ElfenMagix wrote:Constantly telling somebody that they are no good, wont amount to anything, not good enough, etc.
Now I really don't know what education has to do with understanding something like that. "You'r no good." is not a logic puzzle it's a very straight forward statement that most if not all 5 year old kids can understand.

Also, the dream Rico has in vol. 6 (or 5) is practically a plain statement that she idoes have these fears of being no good. Her personality, is her personality, but I don't think it can be taken at face value. What a person appears is not always what a person is. Claes and Jean have a conversation about how they want to cry badly, but can't. In the case of Rico the difference between her personality and her pain simply provides more contrast.

No one cries forever, emotionally scarred people are not always sad, or depressed in an apperent way, but react strongly to certain things, which bring the pain ot the surface.

Also, I really don't see Jean as being particularly abusive in the way you described in the mental category. He has high expectations and tells her when she fails to meet them, but he does not constantly tell her that she is useless, what he does for the most part is to say "You did this wrong, try again" It's a comment on her performance not a broad generalization about her. If you screw something up people are supposed to tell you that you did it wrong. Otherwise how do you learn to do it better. Only those wacked-out "protect the children's self esteem" schools do that. You fail miserably and then the teacher tells you "Wonderful, you did great." I feel sorry for those kids. They know that they did badly; it's an insult to their intelligence.

Whoah, I'm drifting off course.

Anyway, Jean puts a lot of effort into training Rico and I doubt he would do anything counterproductive like what you set out in the "emotional abuse" category. He would get absolutely nothing by getting Rico to react negatively to herself.

Lauro on the other hand, may not even be aware what he is doing. He really doesn't care.

I still think that contact with a parental figure and some sort of understanding of the world (what they should do, how shold they act, etc) are the main things Elsa was deprived of. Contact is necessary, if you can't get positive contact, you end up trying to get negative contact. Isn't that how a lot of negative behaviours are explained? Contact is the most basic need, then you can build on that; add being supportive, affection, understanding of the world, rules, etc.

I havn't thought much about how the conditioning plays out over time. The conditioning comming in several waves or stages seems true. Althoug, it's impossible to eliminate the possibility that Ange' is the only case that needs that type of, perhaps, daily injections.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 19:41

All valid and excellent points 3Klicks.

I forget where, but it was stated that the girls have to take the medication daily. I think the term was (Jean to Jose- as usual), 'I think you should up her daily condictioning.' Then again, it just might be my version of the subtitled anime I have on my laptop. If I find it, I will post it.

Continueing on with the subject, one thing we did not touch on is the 'Shortened Life Span.' This is sad, but as any stupid government chart explains it- drugs, hi-stress, and low maintenance shortens the life span of the average person to how ever long they can take the added pressures. In most cases, the person will take themselves out then they had enough of the shit. But our girls, they can not do that. Plus the type of work that they do, adds to thhe stress and that manifests itself in other ways- break down on mental and physical levels. It takes a toll on their minds and on their bodies.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 20:55

ElfenMagix wrote:With Lauro, its mental and emotional. Mental, because he was also hard on her, constantly reminding her to do things (though it seems that she may be going through the forgetful stage that Angie went through), and telling her that she better do well on her jobs.
I seriously doubt Elsa was going amnesiac. She was the newest SWA kid at the time of her debut - the long-term side effects of the conditioning wouldn't have shown so early in the game.

3klicks wrote:I still think that contact with a parental figure and some sort of understanding of the world (what they should do, how shold they act, etc) are the main things Elsa was deprived of.
The Elsa I've written in my stories came from a broken and chaotic home and was living a hard life on the streets prior to being selected by the Agency, and retains memories of her past just like Rico. This, I feeel, would explain her cold, flinty demeanor and why she desired so deeply to please Lauro and bond with him - my Elsa wanted and needed a father figure after being rejected by her biological parents, and therefore snapped after being turned away a second time.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 22:04

Nachtsider wrote:I seriously doubt Elsa was going amnesiac. She was the newest SWA kid at the time of her debut - the long-term side effects of the conditioning wouldn't have shown so early in the game.
I'm just saying that because, as you stated in the other thread, Elsa made a lot of mistakes on that super openning mission she was in.

Then I noticed that Lauro had to remind her of all the things she had to do...

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 22:32

I think it might just have been born of the inexperience that most rookies possess.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 23:08

Nachtsider wrote:
The Elsa I've written in my stories came from a broken and chaotic
home and was living a hard life on the streets prior to being selected
by the Agency, and retains memories of her past just like Rico. This, I
feeel, would explain her cold, flinty demeanor and why she desired so
deeply to please Lauro and bond with him - my Elsa wanted and needed a
father figure after being rejected by her biological parents, and
therefore snapped after being turned away a second time.
This fits in nicely. Smile

ElfenMagix wrote:
I forget where, but it was stated that the girls have to take the
medication daily. I think the term was (Jean to Jose- as usual), 'I
think you should up her daily condictioning.' Then again, it just might
be my version of the subtitled anime I have on my laptop. If I find it,
I will post it.
Now that I think about it this introduces a set of problems for all the fan-fiction ideas revolving around the cyborgs getting detached from the agency (with or without their handlers), since once they, for example run away, or get lost somewhere, it becomes a race against time untill the drug in their blood and whatever supply of it they may have runs out, and it's not exactly stuff you can get at a drug store.

ElfenMagix wrote:
Continueing on with the subject, one thing we did not touch on is
the 'Shortened Life Span.' This is sad, but as any stupid government
chart explains it- drugs, hi-stress, and low maintenance shortens the
life span of the average person to how ever long they can take the
added pressures. In most cases, the person will take themselves out
then they had enough of the shit. But our girls, they can not do that.
Plus the type of work that they do, adds to thhe stress and that
manifests itself in other ways- break down on mental and physical
levels. It takes a toll on their minds and on their bodies.
I can definitely see all that taking a serious toll on the girls. Their artificial frames and the conditioning do not protect them from all that strain. All that seems to do is keep it in check so that it doesn't affect their performance, but it's building up inside the whole time. Sort of like with Claes who cries at night, but doesn't know why, or Triela's dream on the operating table. The strain is definitely there.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 23:19

3klicks wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:
I forget where, but it was stated that the girls have to take the
medication daily. I think the term was (Jean to Jose- as usual), 'I
think you should up her daily condictioning.' Then again, it just might
be my version of the subtitled anime I have on my laptop. If I find it,
I will post it.
Now that I think about it this introduces a set of problems for all the fan-fiction ideas revolving around the cyborgs getting detached from the agency (with or without their handlers), since once they, for example run away, or get lost somewhere, it becomes a race against time untill the drug in their blood and whatever supply of it they may have runs out, and it's not exactly stuff you can get at a drug store.
I would believe it was deliberately set that way for those reasons.

Think about it, if your government pays you to create a cyborg that is to go out and do its dirty work, you and the government would want some reassurances that it has to return home. Issues with this is that it creates a high maintenance cyborg.

3klicks wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:
Continueing on with the subject, one thing we did not touch on is
the 'Shortened Life Span.' This is sad, but as any stupid government
chart explains it- drugs, hi-stress, and low maintenance shortens the
life span of the average person to how ever long they can take the
added pressures. In most cases, the person will take themselves out
then they had enough of the shit. But our girls, they can not do that.
Plus the type of work that they do, adds to thhe stress and that
manifests itself in other ways- break down on mental and physical
levels. It takes a toll on their minds and on their bodies.
I can definitely see all that taking a serious toll on the girls. Their artificial frames and the conditioning do not protect them from all that strain. All that seems to do is keep it in check so that it doesn't affect their performance, but it's building up inside the whole time. Sort of like with Claes who cries at night, but doesn't know why, or Triela's dream on the operating table. The strain is definitely there.
I dont remember Claes crying at night, but all the cyborgs dream during operations; Henrietta did when she had her arm patched up in the second episode: Orionne.

It does not matter how strong one builds something, if another is going to use it on its extreme levels of operation- something has to give.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 23:21

ElfenMagix wrote:
I dont remember Claes crying at night, but all the cyborgs dream
during operations; Henrietta did when she had her arm patched up in the
second episode: Orionne.
It's only implied in the manga. When she is talking with Jean about not being able to cry she says something allong the lines I'll just cry in my sleep or I'll cry myself to sleep.


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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Wileama on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 23:25

I can't believe I haven't written a post for this thread yet. Well I have been busy, but this is just going to be so much fun.

On the matter of conditioning. I agree there is a write, or brainwashing phase, and an upkeep, or medication phase. What Elfen calls Physical Condictioning, I would call training. I don't think it serves any purpose in terms of conditioning. It is merely preparation for their jobs. I think that both phases can have their own dosage levels. I think that initial write conditioning helps determines how much you need in terms of upkeep. Besides why would you choose a high level of conditioning in the write, only to choose a lower level during upkeep. It would be counter intutive. There might be some ability to lower dosages in the upkeep, but this would be limited by tolerance the girl has built up.

Again I mostly agree with Elfen about the brainwashing phase. I think of this as the point where just about all the mental aspects of conditioning are done. The wipe their past; implanted knowledge; ties the girl to their handler; set those rules. I'm also of the opinion that conditioning keeps the girls from freaking out about killing people. In the write phase you see all these mental aspects implanted in the girls. I'm don't believe that it has much, if anything, to do with physical implants.

In terms of the medication phase I think that again Elfen is mostly right. I agree it should maintain the brain washing effects. It must have some physical roll in the bodies, but what that is I'm not sure. However I disagree that dosing is done daily. I have evidence!
Vol 3. PG 129 wrote:Marco: What's wrong?
Angelica: Medicine. Please, I need it.
Olga: Is she having withdrawals?
Marco: I don't know her next dose isn't 'til next week.

The emphasis is mine. That whole event provides a lot of information. When Angelica is coming off the drug she's apparently very tired. In addition she seems to lose it mentally. Angelica is completely oblivious to the fact that's she broken Priscilla wrist. I don't think this implies the drug makes the girls more clear headed, or gives them energy. Just that coming off the drug seems to be a real bitch. Which makes me wonder if it can even be optional. It might actually be something of a safeguard against a rogue cyborg. When they start to suffer withdrawal, their left a withering mass of flesh. Thus making them useless, easy to find, retake, capture, or kill. I know several people here have written stories where some one goes through withdrawal. That's always been on thing I'm not really sure could happen, well at least not without a hospital.

Also it's mentioned by a doctor in the beginning of episode two that the drug has to be used for an anesthetic during operations. That would seem to argue that the drug plays a roll in the girls pain management system. Which is odd. Is it being used to knock the girls out, or as something to prevent them from feeling pain? Why is it that conditioning drug has to be used, are the girls really that resistant to other drugs? I don't know, so much head scratching.

I remember someone having this awesome explination of why conditioning might kill the girls. Something to do with the killing of the frontal lobe. I'll have to try to find it later.

3klicks wrote:The girls which seem to have the most intense feelings for their handlers are Henrietta, Triela, but also Elsa. It's split high/low.
Feelings are created by the conditioning, that is not questionable. However they don't only come from the conditioning. Jose treats Henrietta pretty damn well, or at least obsesses over her a lot. This leads her to return those kinds of feelings for Jose. Where as Elsa seems to be entirely the result of a high level of conditioning.

3klicks wrote:As far as obeying commands is concerned. Henrietta freaks out multiple times in defense of Jose. Rico lies to Jean. Triela shoots the questioning guy , lets Mario escape (Hillshire knows about this, but Triela doesn't know he knew so she consciously acted against his orders). In this case Rico's lie isn't much evidence in comparison to her usual obedience, so we can assume that A is proportional to conditioning.
Triela shooting that guy is a none issue. She's there to protect Hilshire. She deems the gun a threat, and thanks to her period doesn't bother to try to disarm him. Triela is just putting different values on different orders, and deciding how to be accomplish them. I wouldn't expect my Cyborg to value all my order equally. If she did, she wouldn't be very good at her job. Henrietta berserk rages are similar in nature. It's just she's doesn't understand, or care for, the balance as much as other girls. The only real issues with obedience are Triela, and Rico. Rico tells a little white lie to her handler, because she's in love. Also she might never have been told to always tell the truth, however unlike that is. So Rico's lie goes pretty low on the disobedience scale. Triela totally decides to totally fuck the mission. This is the only real show of disobedience, and as such shows us that at low levels the girls don't actually have to obey the SWA.

3klicks wrote:Memories:
The whipping of memories seems entirely option. It's doesn't need to happen, but it can be helpful. Especailly when the girls would have to deal with a traumatic past.

3klicks wrote:Elsa, who had a high dosage or conditioning, killed her handler. Henrietta thretened the same thing. The conditioning seems to be contradicted yet again.
This would seem to be more an issue of love then conditioning. Of which Henrietta, and Elsa are very similar. The only really issue is that conditioning didn't stop Elsa from pulling the trigger. Which I think is more an issue of the Cyborgs not having orders not to hurt SWA personnel. Or maybe they simply can't get that specific with conditioning yet.

I must leave for work soon. I shall return for more half crazed ramblings later.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 23:53

Wileama wrote:
Vol 3. PG 129 wrote:Marco: What's wrong?
Angelica: Medicine. Please, I need it.
Olga: Is she having withdrawals?
Marco: I don't know her next dose isn't 'til next week.

The emphasis is mine. That whole event provides a lot of information. When Angelica is coming off the drug she's apparently very tired. In addition she seems to lose it mentally. Angelica is completely oblivious to the fact that's she broken Priscilla wrist. I don't think this implies the drug makes the girls more clear headed, or gives them energy. Just that coming off the drug seems to be a real bitch. Which makes me wonder if it can even be optional. It might actually be something of a safeguard against a rogue cyborg. When they start to suffer withdrawal, their left a withering mass of flesh. Thus making them useless, easy to find, retake, capture, or kill. I know several people here have written stories where some one goes through withdrawal. That's always been on thing I'm not really sure could happen, well at least not without a hospital.

Also it's mentioned by a doctor in the beginning of episode two that the drug has to be used for an anesthetic during operations. That would seem to argue that the drug plays a roll in the girls pain management system. Which is odd. Is it being used to knock the girls out, or as something to prevent them from feeling pain? Why is it that conditioning drug has to be used, are the girls really that resistant to other drugs? I don't know, so much head scratching.

I remember someone having this awesome explination of why conditioning might kill the girls. Something to do with the killing of the frontal lobe. I'll have to try to find it later.
Considering that their muscles had been replaced with artifical tissue, I believe that the motor connections are there but not the sensory ones. This would make them super strong, but would have to learn everything- including how to walk in their extreme early days. Which is why Triela was not able to walk for a while when she had to get her leg replaced the first time she fought Pino. And Henrietta saying the her arm felt heavy after the repair surgery done to her arm.

But with the sensory nerves to the muscles not being connected, that would cause pain and false sensations as disconnected nerves try to interpret false signals. This reeks havoc with the motor and sensory lobes of the brain because they are next to each other.

The drug in some way counteracts this. But as with any drug- too much can kill. Hey- you drink too much water, it can kill you.

Wileama wrote:
3klicks wrote:The girls which seem to have the most intense feelings for their handlers are Henrietta, Triela, but also Elsa. It's split high/low.
Feelings are created by the conditioning, that is not questionable. However they don't only come from the conditioning. Jose treats Henrietta pretty damn well, or at least obsesses over her a lot. This leads her to return those kinds of feelings for Jose. Where as Elsa seems to be entirely the result of a high level of conditioning.

3klicks wrote:As far as obeying commands is concerned. Henrietta freaks out multiple times in defense of Jose. Rico lies to Jean. Triela shoots the questioning guy , lets Mario escape (Hillshire knows about this, but Triela doesn't know he knew so she consciously acted against his orders). In this case Rico's lie isn't much evidence in comparison to her usual obedience, so we can assume that A is proportional to conditioning.
Triela shooting that guy is a none issue. She's there to protect Hilshire. She deems the gun a threat, and thanks to her period doesn't bother to try to disarm him. Triela is just putting different values on different orders, and deciding how to be accomplish them. I wouldn't expect my Cyborg to value all my order equally. If she did, she wouldn't be very good at her job. Henrietta berserk rages are similar in nature. It's just she's doesn't understand, or care for, the balance as much as other girls. The only real issues with obedience are Triela, and Rico. Rico tells a little white lie to her handler, because she's in love. Also she might never have been told to always tell the truth, however unlike that is. So Rico's lie goes pretty low on the disobedience scale. Triela totally decides to totally fuck the mission. This is the only real show of disobedience, and as such shows us that at low levels the girls don't actually have to obey the SWA.

3klicks wrote:Memories:
The whipping of memories seems entirely option. It's doesn't need to happen, but it can be helpful. Especailly when the girls would have to deal with a traumatic past.

3klicks wrote:Elsa, who had a high dosage or conditioning, killed her handler. Henrietta thretened the same thing. The conditioning seems to be contradicted yet again.
This would seem to be more an issue of love then conditioning. Of which Henrietta, and Elsa are very similar. The only really issue is that conditioning didn't stop Elsa from pulling the trigger. Which I think is more an issue of the Cyborgs not having orders not to hurt SWA personnel. Or maybe they simply can't get that specific with conditioning yet.

I must leave for work soon. I shall return for more half crazed ramblings later.

Excellent points there.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 0:03

Wileama wrote:I'm don't believe that it has much, if anything, to do with physical implants.
There's no mention of anything so I agree completely.

Wileama wrote:Also it's mentioned by a doctor in the beginning of episode two that
the drug has to be used for an anesthetic during operations. That would
seem to argue that the drug plays a roll in the girls pain management
system. Which is odd. Is it being used to knock the girls out, or as
something to prevent them from feeling pain? Why is it that
conditioning drug has to be used, are the girls really that resistant
to other drugs? I don't know, so much head scratching.

It does mention that conditioning is like hypnosis. I think the drug itself doesn't do anything except cause the girls to be in a specific steate of consciousness. The writing is done by experience, the drug is what makes the writing stick.

Anyway, here's a little history of hipnotism:
- A guy called Messmer (a doctor) was learning a technique called "animeal magnetism" (strangely enough), which involved moving strong magnets above a patients body. The idea was that since blood contains a lot of iron it would help cure clogged veins. It proubably had no effect in that regard, but what it did do is to make some patients fall into a relaxed state. Messmer noticed this and started using it as an anesthetic (this was before anesthetics were invented). The practice received the name "Messmerizing", but was not yet what we would call hypnotism.
- Marquis de Puysequer. This guy kept messmerising people more an dmore completely untill he discovered that in a deep trans patients become highly suggestible. This was hipnosis.

In modern day auto-hipnosis has been successfully used instead of anesthetics in major surgery. There are also, apperently, some dentist clinics that use it too. With hipnotism your mouth returns to normal immadiately instead of being numb for several hours.

Wileama wrote:Feelings are created by the conditioning, that is not questionable.
However they don't only come from the conditioning. Jose treats
Henrietta pretty damn well, or at least obsesses over her a lot. This
leads her to return those kinds of feelings for Jose. Where as Elsa
seems to be entirely the result of a high level of conditioning.
True, but it seems to me that it is not all that easy. Increasing conditioning does not necessarily increase love proportionally. Elsa (high) was completely nuts about Lauro. Rico (high) isn't nuts about Jean.

Wileama wrote:Triela shooting that guy is a none issue. She's there to protect
Hilshire. She deems the gun a threat, and thanks to her period doesn't
bother to try to disarm him. Triela is just putting different values on
different orders, and deciding how to be accomplish them. I wouldn't
expect my Cyborg to value all my order equally. If she did, she
wouldn't be very good at her job. Henrietta berserk rages are similar
in nature. It's just she's doesn't understand, or care for, the balance
as much as other girls. The only real issues with obedience are when
Triela, and Rico lie. Rico tells a little white lie to her handler,
because she's in love. Also she might never have been told to always
tell the truth, however unlike that is. So Rico's lie goes pretty low
on the disobedience scale. Triela totally decides to totally fuck the
mission. This is the only real show of disobedience, and as such shows
us that at low levels the girls don't actually have to obey the SWA.

-Triela schooting guy. True, its not much.
-Henrietta freeking out. In this case Jose explicitly told her (many times) not to do this, so it is disobedience to orders (wheather this is a backfiring of the drug, part of her personality, and/or something else is up in the air).
- Rico's lie is relatively insignificant, but she is an example of a high conditioning cyborg being disobedient (that's the only reason I mentioned it)
- Treial/Mario; yeah, this is a biggy.

The main question here is about the balance of various elements of the conditioning. First there are things that are "hardwired". Such as the order not to harm SWA personall (although as we have seen this works rather imperfectly). Then there is the loyalty to the handler. Then there is the obedience to the handlers commands. The question is what is the hierarchy between these.

I'm pretty sure a cyborg can't disobey a direct command or at least that it is very difficult. Triela knew that Hillshire wanted the guy captured, but at the moment was not acting on a direct command (it was a spontaneous chase after he escaped from the bathsroom), that's why she could get away with it so easily.

In general I think (as some people have already said) that Yu is pretty tied up in all these considerations. It's rather hard to get your head around and I doubt he's ready to hold up teh manga production to make sure everything works out.

Also, there are the issues of individual reaction to conditioning, its imperfections, and the apperent flexibile quality of it (that I mentioned in contrast to the idea of hard-wired commands).

Wileama wrote:
The whipping of memories seems entirely option. It's doesn't need
to happen, but it can be helpful. Especailly when the girls would have
to deal with a traumatic past.
Not sure about this. I think this is more complicated than that. If it was so easy, the girls that had their memories altered would only have the traumatic event (which is relatively short lived) erased and the rest left intact, but it seems that the ones that had their memory tampered don't remember anything of their past life.

But, in general yes. If I go with my theory that the drug only puts the girls in a state in which information can be implanted into their sub-conscious/un-conscious minds then the drug has no intended/programmed erasing effects. It's just that, as I said above, the process is imperfect and seems to be a package. If you do it you have to sort of drop a nuke on the memories. Can't tamper with them in a sugically precise type of way.


Hey, I'm up to 200 posts and I didn't even notice. Time flies. :pirat:

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Wileama on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 0:15

Well it turns out I lied about work. Well sort of, I have a few more minutes to chat then I realized.

ElfenMagix wrote:Considering that their muscles had been replaced with artifical tissue, I believe that the motor connections are there but not the sensory ones. This would make them super strong, but would have to learn everything- including how to walk in their extreme early days. Which is why Triela was not able to walk for a while when she had to get her leg replaced the first time she fought Pino. And Henrietta saying the her arm felt heavy after the repair surgery done to her arm.

But with the sensory nerves to the muscles not being connected, that would cause pain and false sensations as disconnected nerves try to interpret false signals. This reeks havoc with the motor and sensory lobes of the brain because they are next to each other.

The drug in some way counteracts this. But as with any drug- too much can kill. Hey- you drink too much water, it can kill you.
I just plain old have to disagree. Do you know how helpful pain is? Pain is you bodies way of telling you avoid what ever dumb ass thing you just did. People born without a sense of pain die young. The cyborgs would have much higher maintenance needs if this there the case. Also in the end of vol 5 Triela is makes various sounds when she stands, like she's in pain. She tells Hilshire the medicine is working well. I take this to mean she's taken some form of pain killers.

I always thought the girls just hand a maximum amount of pain they could feel, and that injuries would magically stop hurting very quickly. It seems like they can experience a constant low level amount of pain, but that events that should hurt a lot, bullet injuries, and the like, only hurt for a moment or two. Pain management is perhaps one of the most 'black box' systems in the girls.

**Edit**
Missed Klicks post. Will respond to points when I don't have to run to work. [for real this time]

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 0:30

Wileama wrote:I always thought the girls just hand a maximum amount of pain they
could feel, and that injuries would magically stop hurting very
quickly. It seems like they can experience a constant low level amount
of pain, but that events that should hurt a lot, bullet injuries, and
the like, only hurt for a moment or two. Pain management is perhaps one
of the most 'black box' systems in the girls.
I agree with both statements. There are kids born without nerves responsible for pain and it's downright horrible. They rip their own hair out, skratch their eyes to the point of bleeding, and I don't even want to go further.

The human body already has the mechanisms in place. People comming out of car accidents with no limbs and stuff, tend to be in type of shock staet and not feel any pain. The conditioning would just have to tweek that a litte. Minor pain is definitely felt. Triela's painful period being the simplest example.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 21:53

Pain can be shut down artifically. In worse case, PCP/Angel Dust (Phencyclidine; phenylcyclohexylpiperidine) can do some amazing things. Andrenaline can be just as powerful.

In the Dirty Pair/Lovely Angels, the 3WA agents are fitted with modified Adrenal glands that not only gives a double dose of Adrenaline, but a shot of morphine as well. This makes them super strong and not feel a thing... Its dubbed as 'The War Gland' for obvious reasons.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 22:00

I'd rather have something that would actually protect me from being damaged instead of merely preventing me from feeling pain.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 22:04

Nachtsider wrote:I'd rather have something that would actually protect me from being damaged instead of merely preventing me from feeling pain.
You still feel the shockwave of the bullet when it hits you on the bulletproof vest. There is little protection against that kind of force. Now, if you get it by it, but yet dont feel it... you just might get mad and try to rip their little head off.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Wileama on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 22:07

ElfenMagix wrote:Pain can be shut down artifically. In worse case, PCP/Angel Dust (Phencyclidine; phenylcyclohexylpiperidine) can do some amazing things. Andrenaline can be just as powerful.

In the Dirty Pair/Lovely Angels, the 3WA agents are fitted with modified Adrenal glands that not only gives a double dose of Adrenaline, but a shot of morphine as well. This makes them super strong and not feel a thing... Its dubbed as 'The War Gland' for obvious reasons.

I'm a little confused, is this a statment, or a rebutal? I'm sorry if I'm still stuck in debate mode, but your post just caught me off balance.

**Edit**
I don't pay attention to a page for two minutes while I'm making my post, and I fall behind.


Last edited by on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 22:09; edited 1 time in total

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 22:08

Nachtsider wrote:I'd rather have something that would actually protect me from being damaged instead of merely preventing me from feeling pain.
Well, preventing pain is helpful, and preventing damage is rather difficult. So you just take what you can get.

[edit] I'm kind of confused too.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Wileama on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 22:12

ElfenMagix wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:I'd rather have something that would actually protect me from being damaged instead of merely preventing me from feeling pain.
You still feel the shockwave of the bullet when it hits you on the bulletproof vest. There is little protection against that kind of force. Now, if you get it by it, but yet dont feel it... you just might get mad and try to rip their little head off.
You know being able to survive a bullet is one thing. However it doesn't do much good if your knocked out. I mean imagine it, guy shoots you in your vest, knocks you flat on you ass, in shock. Well okay the first bullet didn't get you, but I bet there are more bullets where that one came from. So making sure they can soak up bullets, and keep going is where the pain management comes in. That's damn important.

As for the blunt force trauma ceramic plates do the job fairly well. They get used up fairly quickly, and can be heavy. Nothing says protection better though.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 22:18

Well, in the case of the girls they are fairly bullet resistant, by means of their mechanical bodies. So that's neatly explained.

The question is whether their pain resistance is something that is taught, induced by the drug, or something else.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 22:21

I say there's little question of it being chemically-induced.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 22:25

Nachtsider wrote:I say there's little question of it being chemically-induced.
The question is how exactly. The drug can be a direct pain releaver, or their glands might be modified (as Elfen suggested) and kept functioning thanks to the drug, or the drug could be used in the hipnotic sense and the mechanism would be implanted into their minds by use of the drug, but not dependent on the drug hereafter. Or something else.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Wileama on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 22:28

I don't know that I would go so far to say chemically-induced. The mechanics of it are cloudy at best. It would be a very complex chemical system to do the things we see it accomplish. It could be tied into adrenaline production.

However it does seem to be a constructed, or engineered ability over taught.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by LoC978 on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 22:28

Wileama wrote:I mean imagine it, guy shoots you in your vest, knocks you flat on you ass, in shock.
OT:
remember, though, that it's actually the shock that knocks you flat on your ass. the amount of force a bullet delivers to you is pretty much the same as the base value of the recoil it delivers to the gun. Enough to make a person lose their balance, but not enough to actually lift them from their feet (large-caliber rounds from mounted weapons excluded).
*looks at his own fic*
oops, even I fell prey to the old hollywood embellishment...
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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 22:29

It has to be drug induced because, if you ever got hit by a bullet, its not a pleasant experience. And I got hit by a .22 when I was young and years later by a 1/2 of a 9mm. The 9mm hit a steel beam and went to pieces, I got hit by one of the pieces.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Guest on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 22:35

ElfenMagix wrote:And I got hit by a .22 when I was young and years later by a 1/2 of a
9mm. The 9mm hit a steel beam and went to pieces, I got hit by one of
the pieces.
Holy shit. Was someone actually shooting at you, or was it just some imbecile who got a hold of a gun and didn't know what to do with it?

The drug can't have a direct effect (like a regular pain killer. You take it -> pain stops), because it only stops after a bit, and the ability to notice that you have been hurt is important. So it will be dependent on the drug being there, but there has to be some mechanic, biological, or psyhological factor that triggers the pain relief.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 23:25

3klicks wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:And I got hit by a .22 when I was young and years later by a 1/2 of a
9mm. The 9mm hit a steel beam and went to pieces, I got hit by one of
the pieces.
Holy shit. Was someone actually shooting at you, or was it just some imbecile who got a hold of a gun and didn't know what to do with it?
The first one was by my kid brother... he took (one of) the family's guns and put it to my knee while I slept on the sofa. Thanks to the position and angle he did it in, it went through with little pernament damage. But boy did that pissed me off!!! I was in a cast for a month thanx to him! Today, I occassionaly get a knife stabbing pain, but I attribute that to getting there in my years. It was a .22 short bullet for a tiny .22 auto.

The second one was an idiot at a shooting range trying to show off that he can hit other people's targets. He hit the range's support beam that shattered the bullet and pieces went everywhere. One of them hit me. Another hit a friend. We took our guns placed it to his temple and forehead and escorted him out of the range. Idiots like that dont belong in the range. No harm done in that one, other than the idea of 'This fool could have killed me!'

3klicks wrote:The drug can't have a direct effect (like a regular pain killer. You take it -> pain stops), because it only stops after a bit, and the ability to notice that you have been hurt is important. So it will be dependent on the drug being there, but there has to be some mechanic, biological, or psyhological factor that triggers the pain relief.

I would not know. Just in guessing, only because according to the proof in Vol 3. the girls get their shots weekly instead of daily, that they are walking around comfortably numb. Only when something disturbs them out right, like bullets or in Triela's case- cramps, do they feel it momentarily. With bullets- its just a one time thing- with cramps- its on going, so it does not work well there.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 27 Nov 2007 - 23:33

ElfenMagix wrote:I would not know. Just in guessing, only because according to the proof in Vol 3. the girls get their shots weekly instead of daily, that they are walking around comfortably numb.

Cue appropriate Pink Floyd music here.

Gotta love them guitar licks.

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Re: What's with the Conditioning?

Post by sasahara17 on Wed 28 Nov 2007 - 19:00

ElfenMagix wrote:The second one was an idiot at a shooting range trying to show off that he can hit other people's targets. He hit the range's support beam that shattered the bullet and pieces went everywhere. One of them hit me. Another hit a friend. We took our guns placed it to his temple and forehead and escorted him out of the range. Idiots like that dont belong in the range. No harm done in that one, other than the idea of 'This fool could have killed me!'

Wow. I hope they banned him from that shooting range after that incident. You sure sound like you have your fair share of injuries there Elfen.
Fix the broken quote, BTW
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