Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

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Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by emperor on Mon 18 Jan 2010 - 10:24

I'm doubt about this for long time.


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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 18 Jan 2010 - 11:06

The private security firm that is out in Iraq and Afghanistan?
From what my friends out there tell me, they are just a bunch of mercs, so I doubt that they do.

Unfortunately, they have killed many more running away from areas of conflict because they haul ass and accidentally run over old ladies and their grand kids who were out shopping and were too slow to get out of the way.

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 18 Jan 2010 - 12:56

Personally, I think a great deal of the Blackwater hate is unjustified.

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 18 Jan 2010 - 13:51

Depends on the circumstance and more importantly, the client.

PMC's working with a military body(whether it be US, British, NATO, Russia, etc.) will follow the rules as they apply to the military body at large. Although the problem with this is that sometimes said rules come into conflict with what is desired from the PMC by the client.

A known example is the incident in Papua New Guinea regarding Sandline International in the late 1990's.

Now if a client is a single, private person such as a diplomat or billionaire, then the rules tend to get thrown out the window when it hits the fan. Another matter of note is that when in a private security situation, PMC's and other private security firms in general are not bound by the same accountability rules providing for a lot of leeway.

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 18 Jan 2010 - 22:52

The military is not accountable for what paid private security forces do, even if they are working in conjunction for a common goal. These private security forces are nothing more than spies working independently of the military though they may report to them and request for back up from them.

In Blackwater's case, I remember a news correspondent riding with them for the news media report of private forces operating in Iraq. The convoy they were in got into a small arms attack and the driver panicked, stomping on the gas and hi-tailing it out of the area. Along the way, he hit 4 cars and several pedestrains; all of it recorded by the news crew. The video went the military chief and it was declared as 'justified collateral damage.' It was put on air and declared as 'justified collateral damage' for the public to see how bad things were in the area.

Having a friend who is a medic there (he was recently called for the 7th time last month), he had his dealings with Blackwater and the damage they do. His opinions of that is that a bunch of rank amateurs do not belong in a warrior's banquet. I agree with him.

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by emperor on Tue 19 Jan 2010 - 1:55

But all the Blackwater's crew were once a special forces before,are they?

So,they should sticking with what they had been taught like when they're in army.

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by boomer_gonz on Tue 19 Jan 2010 - 14:51

emperor wrote:But all the Blackwater's crew were once a special forces before,are they?

So,they should sticking with what they had been taught like when they're in army.

Now this is where things are different. Just like all companies, unions, etc. are not made equal, private military contractors/companies are not exempt of this rule.

PMC's such as Aegis, Sharp End, and Erynis(sp?) have exemplary records and have strict standards on who they hire. Aegis and Erynis especially only hire those with active spec-ops experience or regulars with extensive field experience, while Sharp End makes it a point to hire former instructors almost exclusively.

Others such as Dyncorp and especially Blackwater tend to follow a 'more is merrier' approach. Dyncorp has made a name for themselves in controversy with the lack of professionalism in the field and Blackwater is pretty much a household name for all the wrong reasons. This is mainly due to their willingness to hire just about anyone with some kind of military background. In the case of Blackwater, even an extensive work history in private security will suffice in some cases.

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by funkmachine on Fri 22 Jan 2010 - 17:58

just check to see if there mercenarys

2. A mercenary is any person who:
(a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an
armed conflict; (b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the
hostilities; (c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities
essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised,
by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation
substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of
similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party; (d) is
neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of
territory controlled by a Party to the conflict; (e) is not a member of
the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and (f) has not been sent
by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a
member of its armed forces. (from Protocol I Geneva Conventions)
blackwater fit:
all most all of them
but dont in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities.(on paper)
so there not mercenarys,foreign volunteers or any type of Combatant,then what are thay? and where do thay fall under the laws?

read this

if the army is short of skills in a field why not make a new group to meet the changeing face of war?
edit: blackwater cost 6 times as much a head! ($1200 a day)
84% first to shoot when there Blackwater is legally and contractually bound to only engage in defensive uses of force to
prevent "imminent and grave danger" to themselves or others.21

21 Mission Firearms Policy, U.S. Embassy Baghdad, Iraq (Aug. 2006); Worldwide
Personal Protective Services II Contract $52.233-1(c).
In the vast majority of instances in which Blackwater forces engage in weapons fire, the
Blackwater shots are fired from a moving vehicle and Blackwater does not remain at the scene to determine if their shots resulted in casualties (shoot and scoot?)

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 22 Jan 2010 - 18:53

This is not always the case. Blackwater is in arm conflict every time they drive out in their white landrovers Question is, what are they doing out there? Their primary goal is intel gathering. Their secondary goal is to provide civilian support of the population to the armed forces. This is where they fail in both. In gathering they end up in armed conflicts, often needing to run away when they are out manned and out gunned. In running away, they cause problem because they cause a high collateral damage. They often return with no intel or state that their intel for the region is hostile. In not doing the second, they fail once again.

My friend who is out there told me the whole story; including of how the military allowed him to help rebuild the emergency medical infrastructure in Iraq as long as they paid him. During that year, he made $1800/hour going from hospital to hospital, surveying the scene and equipment, looking over civilian volunteers and help rebuilding what used to be there. He hated the fact that his 17yr old boy (his translator) was being paid $2000/hour for translating for him from English to Arabic and on a few occasions saving his butt from becoming a hostage or dead. This is what Blackwater should be doing but is not. (I kid you not on these numbers, I seen his back account and was offended at how many zeros he had after the decimal, even after the state department and Secret Service raped him on taxes!)

Politics aside, If Blackwater is not properly abiding by their contract, then they should not be there. Like I said before, Amateurs should not be at a Warrior's Banquet, and I'll add not even as their waiters or service boys.

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by funkmachine on Sat 23 Jan 2010 - 19:45

black water cost evey one money,the army,the iraqis and the tax payer
the cost vs most army ranks is massive.
is the u.s. haveing trouble raiseing man power?
or is it so as not to have to pay med costs for the next 50+ years of all the wounded and post traumatic stress disorder cases?

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 24 Jan 2010 - 11:00

Funk - Its all of the above and much more.
Bad Press about the US Military failing in situations that has snagged Blackwater being one of them. Falling into a situation simillar to BlackHawk Down in Mogadishu, Solmalia, is another factor the US Military does not want. But if somebody is willing to do these things for a price, the US Military is willing to pay them their asking price.

Remember, not too long ago, the US Military was paying $20,000 for toilet seats and $500 per nail, along with other over paid items they had signed for by contract.

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by Nuke is Good on Sun 24 Jan 2010 - 14:41

ElfenMagix wrote:Remember, not too long ago, the US Military was paying $20,000 for toilet seats and $500 per nail, along with other over paid items they had signed for by contract.

Whoa whoa whoa, what?

My father personally dislikes Blackwater as it gives PMC's a bad image. They are the biggest PMC in Iraq as far as I can tell so they are bound to get the most flak.
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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by boomer_gonz on Sun 24 Jan 2010 - 15:03

Nuke is Good wrote:My father personally dislikes Blackwater as it gives PMC's a bad image. They are the biggest PMC in Iraq as far as I can tell so they are bound to get the most flak.

On this I agree. I personally consider Blackwater and DynaCorp to be to the PMC racket what Colt is to firearms. They usually jam up in the worst situations, they rarely work right even when they don't, and they only survive due to the lengthy government contracts they seem to be able to elbow rub their way into.

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by rusty-spring on Sun 24 Jan 2010 - 15:26

Actually, Blackwater is Xe now.





I suggest those who haven't to watch the documentary Shadow Company (hey, it's partially narrated by King Leonidas ) for an unbiased and informative approach on PMCs. Even gives a good amount of history too.

Out of the few Iraqi war vets I know, most of them said they would like to work for a PMC - though not necessarily for the right reasons. Among them being 1) Much, much higher pay than re-enlisting. 2) More lax regulations. And as quoted 3) "Reduced bullshit equipment restrictions."

Money and being able to act like a cowboy can be a powerful motivator for those it's an option for.

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 24 Jan 2010 - 21:15

Nuke is Good wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:Remember, not too long ago, the US Military was paying $20,000 for toilet seats and $500 per nail, along with other over paid items they had signed for by contract.

Whoa whoa whoa, what?

My father personally dislikes Blackwater as it gives PMC's a bad image. They are the biggest PMC in Iraq as far as I can tell so they are bound to get the most flak.
Nuke, that was a long time ago, discovered by the Clinton Administration.
Problem is, lucrative contracts like these are still the norm.

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 24 Feb 2010 - 12:05

More on BlackWater (Xe) negativity...
From AOL News...

Weapons signed out by a character from "South Park," a dangerous joyride with AK-47s and hundreds of missing weapons that had been intended to help equip Afghan security forces.

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/senate-investigation-slams-blackwater-employees-in-afghanistan/19370456

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Re: Does Blackwater Security follow the rule of engagement?

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 24 Feb 2010 - 14:13

Oh, lawdie. "Eric Cartman."

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