Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

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Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 18:58

As was the case with Kara, NoŽl's will also be as a sniper so I need to work on dedicated sniper rifles, not "designated marksman" weapons like Rico's Druganov. All of the girls have excellent marksmanship, but I'm looking for NoŽl to be "a cut above" - at least with the right weapon.

After a lifetime of being an H&K snob, Michele has been shown the merits of FN by the Jose/Henrietta fratello so with NoŽl he decided to switch over and employ the Five-seveN, P90 and F2000 as her pistol, PDW and assault rifle, respectively. A logical choice would therefore be the FN Special Police Rifle A5 M Shooting System.

However, I kind of like the idea of "bullpup" sniper weapons since they're easier to conceal and for a 159cm 14/15-year old to wield. Things like the Walther WA 2000, which is only 95cm in length compared to the 112cm of the FN or the 120cm of the Sako TRG-42. I also like the Barrett XM500 bullpup which, while 117cm in length, is still pretty short for a .50 BMG anti-material rifle.

I don't expect NoŽl to limit herself to a single model of weapon. She might use the WA 2000 with .300 Winchester "in the field", but when going for distance shots from a sniper hide, a bolt-action rifle like TRG-42 or PGM Mini-Hecate with .338 Lapua Magnum could be her weapon of choice. And the XM500 might be a good fit for "close-in" heavy support, while when it came time to pepper a structure in preparation of an assault she might use something like the Barrett M107 / PGM Hecate II or even take a page from Dante and employ the Denel NTW-20.


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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by MP5 on Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 19:09

I have a couple suggestions for bullpup snipers:

AMP DSR-1:


and if you need a large-caliber rifle, the Barrett M99 should be right up her alley:

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 19:14

My main issue with the M99 is it really is "one shot - one kill" since you have to load the round into the chamber (no magazine). Now, with enough training, I expect NoŽl would be that good and with the ranges she'd be engaging at, if she missed, she would not be putting herself in danger (unless she was in a counter-sniper role).

The AMP DSR-1 on the other hand... I like that it comes with a "subsonic" model since NoŽl will be operating in urban areas and will want to "not wake the neighbors". Smile And the DSR-50 would allow her to use one family of weapons for both sniping and anti-material.

Hmm...

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Professor Voodoo on Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 19:37

@Kiskaloo wrote:One of NoŽl's functions will be as a sniper
If Rico hasn't already passed away by NoŽl's timeframe she would be getting very long in the tooth. It makes sense to add a new primary sniper.

@MP5 wrote:if you need a large-caliber rifle, the Barrett M99 should be right up her alley:
I'm not much of a firearm aficionado, but I love that Pelican case.
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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 19:43

@Professor Voodoo wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:One of NoŽl's functions will be as a sniper
If Rico hasn't already passed away by NoŽl's timeframe she would be getting very long in the tooth. It makes sense to add a new primary sniper.

Yes, all the canon girls except Petrushka and "Alba" are dead.

I also figure it would explain why NoŽl ends up so conditioned - she needs nerves of steel, so like Beatrice, they damp down her emotions.

I am definitely going to have the DSR family in NoŽl's arsenal, but I'd still like a semi-auto sniper rifle, as well (ala the Walther WA 2000).

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 19:52

As old as it sounds, the Garand M1 has been an excellent Sniper rifle for 3 wars (WWII, Korean and Viet Nam). The M16 can be a sniper weapon but only for close range jobs. Both are used my the Fernando/Rachel/Francesca team although Fernando does not allow his girls to be in sniper action unless it is necessary. Then there is the over kill Barrett .50 cal BMG they have.

Each rifle is used for different situations. They are trained to use these weapons and know their limitations. But as far as using them, unless its an absolute necessity for sniper action, they wont be doing it.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Alfisti on Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 4:56

@Professor Voodoo wrote:I'm not much of a firearm aficionado, but I love that Pelican case.

But everyone loves a good Pelican case right?

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 10:23

@Alfisti wrote:
@Professor Voodoo wrote:I'm not much of a firearm aficionado, but I love that Pelican case.

But everyone loves a good Pelican case right?

Michele and Kara used them. Yes Indeed

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 15:39

As an aside, when it comes time to actually train NoŽl, I'm strongly inclined to think this is a skillset that she cannot learn at the compound.

I can't find specific data on Italian sniper schools, but the USMC Scout-Sniper School course is about eight weeks in length. But would a cyborg actually take the full course? Or would they take a subset course, specializing in sniping and scouting?

In Chapter 22, Major Sales told Hilshire that in two weeks he could train Triela "so she would not lose against that Pinocchio fellow". And yet, in Chapter 61, the GIS corporal noted they had trained with Triela for six months.

Since the full GIS course appears to take 15 weeks, I am guessing that "6月" was read as "six months" as opposed to "sixth month", or "June". On the plus side, now we know Chapter 22 took place in June and therefore Volume 4 was at least partially in the Summer.


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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Robert Frazer on Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 16:06

I doubt that Triela spent the entire four-month summer timeskip during the Pinnochio arc getting beasted by the GIS - if nothing else, the beancounters would have (rightfully) considered it a waste of a very expensive investment when there's still Padanians to hunt. I think that it's more likely that she split her time between the Agency and the GIS; performing missions and Agency duties as normal, but returning to the GIS for weekend courses and the like. She wouldn't be getting as much downtime as the other girls in that period, but she's driven to beat Pinnochio so she takes it on gladly.

In brief, I think the "subset course" is a more likely situation.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 16:34

I agree she wasn't out of service for six months. I think it's just a mixup in the translation and she actually spent two weeks in June training with Major Sales.

Looking at the Marine coursework, Phase 1 and 2 take about three weeks each and Phase 3 takes 2.5 weeks. Being a cyborg, I would expect NoŽl could dispense with some of the marksmanship practice and coursework sections, and concentrate primarily on tactics plus instruction specifically relating to long-range ballistics. And since she is a cyborg, I expect NoŽl would be able to use things like IR rangefinders and other toys to help her engage targets and she would probably enter the course as the best marksman there.

So maybe four weeks? Any idea how long the Royal Army sniper course is?

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 17:33

An Anti-Rape Self Defense course takes 2 days to learn and 2 weeks to master. It is so the sensei can put a good fight into them and hope for the best when they are released.

No doubt a master can teach another to fight a winning fight in 2 weeks. More time the better. But this is not an individual who is going to go out and spend the next 20 years of their lives learning "The Way..."

Sniping- I look at Luaro/Elsa. Seems to me that they have done a lot of sniping from tall towers many times. Scouting an area, and cohoosing a location and then study the target's behavior would take a few days. Learning the basic marksmanship would take weeks of practice for the cyborg. Everything else is on the handler and the mission type. I doubt they will be hiding in bushes with cameo wear and leafy twig hats on.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by maverick375 on Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 17:41

I glossed over much of that aspect with Jamie. In hind-sight, I suppose it would be best to explain her level of training, though I did have one sentence saying Michael was looking for an ex-marine sniper to train her further.

Jamie's training is probably best described as being that of a bench-rest shooter, with perhaps a bunch of sniper field manuals thrown in ("Shakespear?! pshaw, who needs it. I'm studying useful stuff.").
She has all of the ballistics stuff down, plus technique, and knows how to use cover (like shooting from inside a room, through a window, rather than from a window, to conceal shot origin). Digging a long-term hide is not in her skills because she'll (likely) never need it.
If anything, she is closer to a SWAT sniper than anything else.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Professor Voodoo on Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 18:10

@Robert Frazer wrote:I think that it's more likely that she split her time between the Agency and the GIS; performing missions and Agency duties as normal, but returning to the GIS for weekend courses and the like.

I'll second that idea. In real life, military training is an ongoing process that lasts an entire career, or in the girls' case, a lifetime. I tend to think Hillshire intergrated Major Sales lessons into Triela's schedule.
Such compressed training isn't very realistic if one over-analyzes it, but this is fiction and certain concessions must be made to story. For example; I had Marisa at an off-compound Dive Training Center for the first month of her life with Elio teaching her an intensive course in undersea ops. In real life that's ludicrous. I spent 7 months at industrial diving school only to graduate as an apprentice.

Maverick wrote:Jamie's training is probably best described as being that of a bench-rest shooter, with perhaps a bunch of sniper field manuals thrown in ("Shakespear?! pshaw, who needs it. I'm studying useful stuff.").
As I've theorized before, it is my belief that the academic work (Shakespeare & the like) is at least in part an effort to normalize the girls' idle time. Schedules in their line of work can be unpredictable, so during the slow times it might be weeks between missions. Would you trust a dorm full of kids to just sit on their hands and behave for that length of time? No, you've got to give them something to do.

Of course, Micheal de-prioritizing such things fits perfectly with his character.
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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 18:37

@maverick375 wrote:She has all of the ballistics stuff down, plus technique, and knows how to use cover (like shooting from inside a room, through a window, rather than from a window, to conceal shot origin). Digging a long-term hide is not in her skills because she'll (likely) never need it.

If anything, she is closer to a SWAT sniper than anything else.

That's what I am thinking, as well. I can't see NoŽl learning how to properly put on a ghillie suit and mimic a hedge. Nor do I see her needing to know how to track a Padania operative over hill and dale (though The Fog" from Passion Lives Here might put lie to that statement). It would be more "refining" her natural skills to make her effective at shooting people at a distance.


@Professor Voodoo wrote:Such compressed training isn't very realistic if one over-analyzes it, but this is fiction and certain concessions must be made to story. For example; I had Marisa at an off-compound Dive Training Center for the first month of her life with Elio teaching her an intensive course in undersea ops. In real life that's ludicrous. I spent 7 months at industrial diving school only to graduate as an apprentice.

Yeah. In Pactio Kara spent about a week with the British Special Reconnaissance Regiment at Hereford and NoŽl receives her initial firearms instruction from a member of the 9th Parachute Assault Regiment and then runs the "Endurance Course" (which I modeled after the Royal Marines' Commando course after watching an episode of Gordon Ramsay's F Word). But how effective either of those would really be for the girls is debatable, IMO.

So I figure maybe a week or two for training her to be a sniper and Michele to be her spotter, plus some basic reconnaissance and intel-gathering skills (I think "Scout Sniper" as the USMC defines it would be a good role - hell, maybe I should send them to Quantico) to give them an idea of what they need, then constant drilling back at the Compound going forward to keep what they learned sharp in their heads.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 22:45

It would be difficult to normalize things in story as far as Yu's ideas on this genre goes. Thats why I did those things in Solution's resolution.

But in note, I have noticed that in at least Yu's canon, the girls go through some training before each mission. Besides testing basic skills that they should have known up to this point, this further reinforces what they know and adds further situational procedures. "This is our mission, this is what we're expecting, this is what you should do..."

I can only see the girls in a SWAT like sniper operation, where there will be back up nearby and everything has been planned out- they just carry out the mission site-unseen. In the anime and V1, Jose is training Henrietta from a roof. Later he has her with WA2000. Luaro has Elsa with an assortment of weapons A true snipe would have 2- the rifle and a pistol. The rifle for the intended target, the pistol for anyone who gets in the way of escape. That is all I see the girls doing in their assassination missions.

So, handler depending, the girls get the training they need according to their mission specs. As a true sniper, Jean has Rico all out in the open at times. Too open for some snipers to be comfortable with.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 22:56

I still see Rico more in the "designated marksman" role the SVD was designed for. Someone who is an excellent marksman, but not really trained to be a "true" sniper.

Also, Henrietta fired after Jose dropped the Chief of Police with his shot. So she had a stationary target. She was the "follow-up shot" to make sure after, originally, Elsa took the "kill shot". So one could imply that Elsa was a better marksman than Rico when it came to a true "snipe", which was why she was sent and not Rico.

With Elsa dead, it's possible Rico received extra training to improve her own marksmanship. She certainly proved herself in Venice - both times.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Professor Voodoo on Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 23:01

With two people available I'm sure the tactics change. One (presumably the cyborg, but in E&M's case the handler) is the designated sniper...the other would act as spotter and carry a faster, shorter-range weapon in case any hostiles got too close for comfort. Having two people available to set up, then break down and pack up the primary weapon would be a decided advantage.

I base this on a US "all-services" sniper competition that was aired on History/Discovery channel some time back.
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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by funkmachine on Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 12:42

sady there are no anti-material rifles that you can hide any were other than a BIG car boot.
I.E.Accuracy International's AS50 is a bullpup as its 1369 mm in length but it is semiautomatic with 5 rounds in a detachable box magazine.

mosty you brake anti-material rifles down to move them.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 12:54

I've decided on the Barrett XM500 for NoŽl's anti-material rifle and the AMP DSR-1 family for her sniper rifle.

I like the XM500 because it's under 120cm and it has a 10-round magazine. And I really like that the DSR-1 has both a "regular" and a "subsonic" model since the latter would be nice when NoŽl is operating in an urban environment and the former for when she needs range more than stealth.

Like any good Gunslinger Girl, NoŽl won't be limited to only using these weapons, but they will be her primary ones that she is most comfortable with.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 13:44

Liesel welcomes her sister-in-arms to the DSR-1 club. DSR-1 FTW.

@Kiskaloo wrote:So one could imply that Elsa was a better marksman than Rico when it came to a true "snipe", which was why she was sent and not Rico.
I still think that Elsa was the 'new girl', and that Rico didn't get the job only because she was needed elsewhere.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 14:10

@Nachtsider wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:So one could imply that Elsa was a better marksman than Rico when it came to a true "snipe", which was why she was sent and not Rico.
I still think that Elsa was the 'new girl', and that Rico didn't get the job only because she was needed elsewhere.

This mission was an important one, in that it was meant to send a message to other law enforcement officials that they best remember they are supposed to fight Padania, not cut deals with them. So I would think they'd send the "A Team" and if that was Rico, then she'd have been there.

I'm more and more of the opinion Elsa was one of the older girls (pre-dating at least Rico, Henrietta and Claes). I know Funimation's press materials said she was "the newest girl" at the Agency, but is that something Funi came up on their own, or was it attributable back to Yu Aida?

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 15:47

I'm not sure about exactly who came up with that, but I think Elsa's behavior in combat supports the notion that she was newer. Plus, I find it hard to accept that she would have put up with Lauro for so long. Had she been one of the older girls, I think she would have snapped earlier.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 16:10

@Nachtsider wrote:I'm not sure about exactly who came up with that, but I think Elsa's behavior in combat supports the notion that she was newer. Plus, I find it hard to accept that she would have put up with Lauro for so long. Had she been one of the older girls, I think she would have snapped earlier.

Well in the manga, Jose expressed the opinion that Lauro and Elsa were "an excellent fratello" and Jean agreed with him.

If Elsa had been one of the earlier girls, she'd have spent years witnessing the closeness of fratelli like Hilshire / Triela and Chiara and her handler and that might very well have worn her down into depression. And now here comes three new fratelli and she watches Jose spoil Henrietta to the extreme and Raballo take Claes on all these trips (even when her memories of Raballo are erased, the underlying emotion might still be present, eating away at her) and even Jean, as aloof as he can be, still shows emotional support towards Rico.

And then comes Christmas and Triela gets not one, but two bears - one from what was effectively a complete stranger. At that point, she might have come to the conclusion that she would never mean anything to Lauro and decided she didn't want to live and blaming Lauro for her decision to take her own life, decided to murder him, as well.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by maverick375 on Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 17:19

I've always viewed Lauro as the guy getting all of the really wet work. Okay, he was in two episodes and half a chapter, but if we're to take the anime as canon, Lauro was evidently left to work on his own most of the time. He was given a mission (such as 'make the police in Milan see things our way') and left to do it as he pleased. He obviously tried blackmail and threats before ending up with making an example.

The fact that he didn't seem really all that surprised to have to resort to assassination means he did it a lot, and thus my belief that he was Jean's wet-work guy. Even though Jean had no inhibitions on killing for example, he did not do it much, if at all. Read into it however much you want, I'm just saying that an organization works better when everyone has their place.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 17:24

Having NoŽl be a sniper interested me for a few reasons:

  • Kara and Michele didn't do much killing - at least in my stories. So I can now write more "action oriented" stuff with NoŽl.
  • It gives them a legitimate reason to travel so much - both within Italy and abroad.
  • Michele is a pragmatist, but I expect the constant killing would eventually start to wear on him and make him question just how important saving the Republic really is...

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by boomer_gonz on Wed 14 Apr 2010 - 7:39

@Kiskaloo wrote:Having NoŽl be a sniper interested me for a few reasons:

  • Kara and Michele didn't do much killing - at least in my stories. So I can now write more "action oriented" stuff with NoŽl.
  • It gives them a legitimate reason to travel so much - both within Italy and abroad.
  • Michele is a pragmatist, but I expect the constant killing would eventually start to wear on him and make him question just how important saving the Republic really is...

Damn, i really like this. Especially the last one. It even sparked a scene in my mind.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 14 Apr 2010 - 18:03

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:So one could
imply that Elsa was a better marksman than Rico when it came to a true
"snipe", which was why she was sent and not Rico.
I still
think that Elsa was the 'new girl', and that Rico didn't get the job
only because she was needed elsewhere.

This mission was
an important one, in that it was meant to send a message to other law
enforcement officials that they best remember they are supposed to fight
Padania, not cut deals with them. So I would think they'd send the "A
Team" and if that was Rico, then she'd have been there.

I'm more
and more of the opinion Elsa was one of the older girls (pre-dating at
least Rico, Henrietta and Claes). I know Funimation's press materials
said she was "the newest girl" at the Agency, but is that something Funi
came up on their own, or was it attributable back to Yu Aida?


@Nachtsider wrote:I'm not sure about exactly who came up with that,
but I think Elsa's behavior in combat supports the notion that she was
newer. Plus, I find it hard to accept that she would have put up with
Lauro for so long. Had she been one of the older girls, I think she
would have snapped earlier.


@maverick375 wrote:I've always viewed Lauro as the guy getting all of the really wet work. Okay, he was in two episodes and half a chapter, but if we're to take the anime as canon, Lauro was evidently left to work on his own most of the time. He was given a mission (such as 'make the police in Milan see things our way') and left to do it as he pleased. He obviously tried blackmail and threats before ending up with making an example.

The fact that he didn't seem really all that surprised to have to resort to assassination means he did it a lot, and thus my belief that he was Jean's wet-work guy. Even though Jean had no inhibitions on killing for example, he did not do it much, if at all. Read into it however much you want, I'm just saying that an organization works better when everyone has their place.


Interesting points of view here.
Like Pia (as I use her in 'canon') I use Elsa because she has been mentioned in the series since before anyone else outside of Henrietta practically. During the flashback to the meeting SWA staff on the Senator's assassination mission, I forgot who said it, but it was said "...the Lauro/Elsa team is out preparing a perp..." That being said within the second chapter/third episode of the first season, says that in this point an time, they were around for a while. Like all the other girls, she was trained like any other, to the best of the handler's ability. But one would tend to believe that they were rarely seen on the compound or the agency for they were out more than most teams at their time.

So like Mav had stated, who knows, maybe they were Jean's wet team- constantly sending them in mission. Worst yet, perhaps they worked on commission- who knows how many Euros per head. In this case, Luaro would be out all the time trying to cash in!

But they were out there, and Elsa had knowledge of her guns well. She always went for the biggest to get the score. Instead of cleaning her gun, she was polishing her rifle. This is a sniper behavior as far as I know; the gun is secondary, the rifle is first.

This is why I mention them.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 14 Apr 2010 - 18:04

@boomer_gonz wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:Having NoŽl be a sniper interested me for a few reasons:

  • Kara and Michele didn't do much killing - at least in my stories. So I can now write more "action oriented" stuff with NoŽl.
  • It gives them a legitimate reason to travel so much - both within Italy and abroad.
  • Michele is a pragmatist, but I expect the constant killing would eventually start to wear on him and make him question just how important saving the Republic really is...

Damn, i really like this. Especially the last one. It even sparked a scene in my mind.
Burnout is always a bitch. Aint it?

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Piero on Wed 14 Apr 2010 - 21:53

Probably a bit late for the party here, but a few observations:

Regarding the XM-500, did it ever actually go past the prototype stage? I haven't heard of it actually entering production. If you don't mind a slower rate of fire though the bolt action M95 (five round magazine) is pretty much the same length however, and is definitely available.

Also, while the Accuracy International AS-50 is longer than the XM-500 when fully assembled, it's fitted with a stock that can reportedly be removed and put back on in a matter of seconds in order to facilitate ease of transport (note this is different from a full disassembly, which would take much longer).

Regarding the DSR-1, are you looking at the .338 Lapua model or the 7.62mm NATO one? Because there are some quite compact 7.62mm NATO sniper rifles out there. Some of the most accurate 7.62mm NATO rifles out there have only twenty inch barrels. A SAKO TRG-22 with a twenty inch barrel and folding stock is only about a meter long even with the stock open. Close the stock and it'll be even shorter. Note that some oblong (more rectangular) viola cases are about thirty two inchs long. Throw a folding stock TRG-22 in there along with a quick attach sound suppressor and you could have something quite useful (though without knowing the exact folded length of a TRG-22, I can't absolutely guarantee it would fit).

Also note that a folding stock for a SAKO TRG-22 is not going to be like the folding stock on a cheap assault rifle. It may be a folding stock but it is a shoulder stock designed for use on a high precision sniper rifle. There's a huge different between it and the wire stock on some AK knockoff.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by MP5 on Wed 14 Apr 2010 - 22:02

Piero, what Kisk is looking for Noel to use is primarily bullpup designs. This way, Maximum range is gained from a smaller amount of space. as nice as the AS-50, is, it's not a bullpup weapon, and therefore would not serve Noel's needs for a compact, yet long-range rifle.

As for the DSR-1, he said he's most likely going for the 7.62 NATO version.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Piero on Wed 14 Apr 2010 - 22:22

It's roughly an eight inch difference in length between the AS-50 and XM-500 (or M95, which is about the same size). That could give the Barret the edge if shooting from a cramped place or something. Transport wise though, the two rifles should be about the same thanks to the AI's quick detachable stock. And while I can't guarantee the AS-50 has entered production, indications would seem to be that it has, as where indications with the XM-500 are that it hasn't. The M-95 of course is the one that's guaranteed to be available, but if the fact that its bolt action rather than semi is a big deal to Kiskaloo then it's at a disadvantage.

As for the DSR-1, if that 990mm length spec applies to the 7.62mm NATO version, than a SAKO TRG-22 with a twenty inch barrel and folding stock is almost as short even deployed. Stock folded, it would be considerably shorter, so it would have an edge if small size for transport was a big factor. Of course, the DSR-1 likely has a longer barrel in that situation, but there are some incredibly accurate 7.62mm sniper rifles with twenty inch barrels out there, and the SAKO TRG series is considered world class.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 14 Apr 2010 - 22:37

@Piero wrote:Regarding the XM-500, did it ever actually go past the prototype stage? I haven't heard of it actually entering production. If you don't mind a slower rate of fire though the bolt action M95 (five round magazine) is pretty much the same length however, and is definitely available.

Well the new story takes place in 2011/2012 so I figure it either entered service or, like Kara's H&K XM8, it didn't but she secured one of the prototypes/test models.

I really don't want a bolt-action anti-material rifle, since I want more capacity and a higher rate of fire.

Regarding the DSR-1, are you looking at the .338 Lapua model or the 7.62mm NATO one?

The DSR-1 Subsonic uses .308 Winchester / 7.62x51mm NATO. The "standard" DSR-1 can be had in .338 Lapua, .300 Winchester Magnum or .308 Winchester.

In my fiction, I had the Walther WA2000 use .300 Winchester Magnum, which allowed Michele and Henrietta to employ .300 Whisper subsonic rounds. I'm not sure if .300 Magnum is really necessary, so I am thinking of making the DSR-1 also use .308 / 7.62x51mm NATO so she could also use rounds like the M948 SLAP and M993 armor-piercing round.

Also in my fiction, I have given the SWA a Sako TRG-42 firing.338 Lapua, so I am thinking if NoŽl needs to really "reach out and touch someone", she would do so from a pre-established blind so she'd pull the Sako out of inventory.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by boomer_gonz on Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 1:34

@Kiskaloo wrote:
In my fiction, I had the Walther WA2000 use .300 Winchester Magnum, which allowed Michele and Henrietta to employ .300 Whisper subsonic rounds. I'm not sure if .300 Magnum is really necessary, so I am thinking of making the DSR-1 also use .308 / 7.62x51mm NATO so she could also use rounds like the M948 SLAP and M993 armor-piercing round.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 15:32

I'm still going to keep the DSR-1 "Subsonic" model in NoŽl's arsenal, but more and more the Desert Tactical Arms Stealth Recon Scout is appealing to me as her "normal" weapon. Being able to use four different calibers with it (via a quick barrel change) would be very helpful from a flexibility angle and the 800mm length would make it easier to handle and conceal.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Piero on Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 23:16

The Desert Arms rifle does have some advantages from the looks of thing, although I'm not sure how big an advantage the swappable barrels specifically are once you've left the armory. Sure, it may allow you to use various types of ammo that you find, but sniper rifles typically perform best with specialised high quality ammunition rather then whatever you can scrounge up, and besides how much ammo do you really expect to burn through when you're on a sniping assignment with a bolt action?

Also, at the risk of being a killjoy again, the parent cartridge for the .300 Whisper is the .221 Fireball, which makes it quite different from .300 Winchester Magnum from a dimensional standpoint. This a WA2000 could not switch to .300 Whisper rounds without extensive modification.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 23:22

@Piero wrote:The Desert Arms rifle does have some advantages from the looks of thing, although I'm not sure how big an advantage the swappable barrels specifically are once you've left the armory. Sure, it may allow you to use various types of ammo that you find, but sniper rifles typically perform best with specialised high quality ammunition rather then whatever you can scrounge up, and besides how much ammo do you really expect to burn through when you're on a sniping assignment with a bolt action?

It would be a case of tailoring the round to the mission. So if NoŽl needed long-range snipe, she could use .338 LM. If she needs shorter range, but better power she can use .300 Winchester and then .308/7.62 for "normal" stuff.

@Piero wrote:Also, at the risk of being a killjoy again, the parent cartridge for the .300 Whisper is the .221 Fireball, which makes it quite different from .300 Winchester Magnum from a dimensional standpoint. This a WA2000 could not switch to .300 Whisper rounds without extensive modification.

Not sure why I called it the .300 Whisper since I was using Engel Ballistic Research .300 Winchester Magnum Subsonic. Go figure

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 28 Apr 2010 - 11:48

@Alfisti wrote:
@ebitempura966 wrote:i wanna ask bout something, well recently i've been thinking, for the sniper would luca use if i have two option whatwould you take:
1.Heckler & Koch PSG1
2.AWP?


Umm, well I guess it depends on what you want to use it for as they both appear to be suited to different uses. For starters the PSG1's semi-auto where as the AWP appears to be bolt-action. My leaning would be toward the AWP considering the covert nature of most GSG assignments (just reading the little note about difficulties policing spent cartriges from the PSG1). That said, I'm probably not the best person to ask about firearms... I chose Monty and Jethro's weapons based on their personalities and logistical needs rather than on whether each weapon was the best for a specific task (though I do think that personality should play a role).

I've used the PSG-1 in my fiction, but it is a rather large weapon (like most sniper rifles), so if you're looking for something your OC would carry on a regular basis...

It's why I chose the Desert Tactical Arms Stealth Recon Scout for my OC sniper since she it's short enough for her to carry around in public without drawing undue attention to herself.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Alfisti on Wed 28 Apr 2010 - 12:30

@Kiskaloo wrote:I've used the PSG-1 in my fiction, but it is a rather large weapon (like most sniper rifles), so if you're looking for something your OC would carry on a regular basis...

It's why I chose the Desert Tactical Arms Stealth Recon Scout for my OC sniper since she it's short enough for her to carry around in public without drawing undue attention to herself.
I'm glad someone has something more useful to offer to this than I did To be honest I'm pretty useless on sniper rifles (even moreso than I am on firearms in general) as I never really bothered investigating them for Jethro and Monty. It's just not a role I can particularly see them taking on on a regular basis. Besides, any sort of rifle is going to just be way to difficult for them to transport. If they need that sort of thing they'd either grab what they could on site or, at a pinch, get it diplomatic-bagged out.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Tommygunner70 on Wed 28 Apr 2010 - 15:55

Well it is also possible to bring a big anti-material rifle, You'd have to carry it in field stripped condition and assemble it on site. As for Standard Sniper rifles go, The bullpup Walther WA2000 is pretty small considering this job.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Cifu on Tue 1 Jun 2010 - 11:32

As for "small" sniper rifle, why not mention the Steyr SSG 08 Compact? It's a small (the stock can be folded), light and very durable - and because this, i think the self-loading rifles are a bit over-estimated. For a sniper the fast second- and third shot are not really valuable, the question is the first shoot precision, where a bolt action rifle always have a better accuracy, than a self-loading one.

For an anti-material rifle, the self-loading are can be more valuable, because it's a higher possibility to need a second or third shoot to achieve the desired destruction.
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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 1 Jun 2010 - 18:46

@ElfenMagix wrote:As old as it sounds, the Garand M1 has been an excellent Sniper rifle for 3 wars (WWII, Korean and Viet Nam). The M16 can be a sniper weapon but only for close range jobs. Both are used my the Fernando/Rachel/Francesca team although Fernando does not allow his girls to be in sniper action unless it is necessary. Then there is the over kill Barrett .50 cal BMG they have.

Each rifle is used for different situations. They are trained to use these weapons and know their limitations. But as far as using them, unless its an absolute necessity for sniper action, they wont be doing it.

When you have Noel sniping, what situation is she under? Multiple Taregets vs. Single Target surrounded by allies? Long distance (greater than 1km) vs. Short range (less them 500m)? Need to run away quickly vs. She could take some time in packing up and walking away from the area? Will they be shotting through walls/vehicles vs. open air target?

All this would argue the case for the the rifle used. Kennedy was assassinated in the distance of 265.3 feet, using a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle and 6.5mm Western bullets. This is almost 100yards (minus by some 35ft). Sometimes, its not the weapon but the person using it. For me, thats why these 3 are choosen.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 1 Jun 2010 - 19:45

@ElfenMagix wrote:When you have Noel sniping, what situation is she under? Multiple Taregets vs. Single Target surrounded by allies? Long distance (greater than 1km) vs. Short range (less them 500m)? Need to run away quickly vs. She could take some time in packing up and walking away from the area? Will they be shotting through walls/vehicles vs. open air target?

In general, I expect she would be employed against a single target in an urban area from a not too distant range and a high position (roof, belfry, window). This is why I think a smaller and suppressed weapon would be desirable like the AMP Technical Services DSR-1 Subsonic which is a bolt-action model.

If she needs to "reach out and touch someone" that's when the .50 BMG from the Barrett XM500 would come into play.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Professor Voodoo on Tue 1 Jun 2010 - 20:29

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:When you have Noel sniping, what situation is she under? Multiple Taregets vs. Single Target surrounded by allies? Long distance (greater than 1km) vs. Short range (less them 500m)? Need to run away quickly vs. She could take some time in packing up and walking away from the area? Will they be shotting through walls/vehicles vs. open air target?

In general, I expect she would be employed against a single target in an urban area from a not too distant range and a high position (roof, belfry, window). This is why I think a smaller and suppressed weapon would be desirable like the AMP Technical Services DSR-1 Subsonic which is a bolt-action model.

If she needs to "reach out and touch someone" that's when the .50 BMG from the Barrett XM500 would come into play.
One must be flexible. Noel might need to engage several different types of targets during the same mission, and I don't think Michele would have the luxury of calling over his radio "This kind of shot is not Noel's specialty...send up Gertrude!" (they're running out of names by Noel's time-frame).

Furthermore, specializing in one tactic limits how useful the character can be to the writer. Noel might have to do a sniper mission one week and jet out to Milan for a VIP bodyguard gig the next.
Everyone seems to like the Bomb Squad Girls, but I struggle to find uses for them in my stories because they are so limited. Marisa on the other hand is designed to be a diver but I've given her what...3 dive jobs in 13 episodes? She's easy to write because of her flexibility. Just don't send her on a sniper mission.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 1 Jun 2010 - 20:52

@Professor Voodoo wrote:One must be flexible. Noel might need to engage several different types of targets during the same mission, and I don't think Michele would have the luxury of calling over his radio "This kind of shot is not Noel's specialty...send up Gertrude!" (they're running out of names by Noel's time-frame).

A very valid point. If the Agency goes through the trouble to make her a designated sniper, they're going to want a flexible person. And it does allow more more story-telling opportunities.

@Professor Voodoo wrote:Furthermore, specializing in one tactic limits how useful the character can be to the writer. Noel might have to do a sniper mission one week and jet out to Milan for a VIP bodyguard gig the next.

Damn funny you should say this... Wink

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 1 Jun 2010 - 22:32

ROTFL

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by WEBER on Wed 2 Jun 2010 - 11:47

If your still looking for anti-material weapons, check out the Lahiti L-39. Chambers a 20x125mm round with a theoretical range of 6.5km at a max. of 30 rpm. Semi-automatic with a 10 round mag. Ex Finnish anyi-aircraft/tank weapon.
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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 2 Jun 2010 - 20:47

No way are you ever going to hide that in your Amati Violin Case!

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Alfisti on Wed 2 Jun 2010 - 20:57

@ElfenMagix wrote:No way are you ever going to hide that in your Amati Violin Case!
Hmm... maybe if someone were to take up playing Jazz double bass it could be transported... but that's a big maybe.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Piero on Thu 3 Jun 2010 - 0:25

Lahti L-39's are 2.2 meters or seven feet, four inchs in length. But seeing as a picture sometimes gets a point across better than mere words... Laughing

http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/lahti.jpg

How bit is this double bass case you're talking about? Razz

Also, the L-39 used a round called 20x138mm Solothurn which was used in WWII era anti tank rifles and AA guns. Unlike some of the other ammo types from that era, it's kind of hard to find these days.


Last edited by Piero on Thu 3 Jun 2010 - 1:03; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edited to note I was referring to the L-39 specifically. It wasn't the only gun Lahti made.)

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

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