Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 1 Jun 2010 - 18:46

@ElfenMagix wrote:As old as it sounds, the Garand M1 has been an excellent Sniper rifle for 3 wars (WWII, Korean and Viet Nam). The M16 can be a sniper weapon but only for close range jobs. Both are used my the Fernando/Rachel/Francesca team although Fernando does not allow his girls to be in sniper action unless it is necessary. Then there is the over kill Barrett .50 cal BMG they have.

Each rifle is used for different situations. They are trained to use these weapons and know their limitations. But as far as using them, unless its an absolute necessity for sniper action, they wont be doing it.

When you have Noel sniping, what situation is she under? Multiple Taregets vs. Single Target surrounded by allies? Long distance (greater than 1km) vs. Short range (less them 500m)? Need to run away quickly vs. She could take some time in packing up and walking away from the area? Will they be shotting through walls/vehicles vs. open air target?

All this would argue the case for the the rifle used. Kennedy was assassinated in the distance of 265.3 feet, using a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle and 6.5mm Western bullets. This is almost 100yards (minus by some 35ft). Sometimes, its not the weapon but the person using it. For me, thats why these 3 are choosen.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 1 Jun 2010 - 19:45

@ElfenMagix wrote:When you have Noel sniping, what situation is she under? Multiple Taregets vs. Single Target surrounded by allies? Long distance (greater than 1km) vs. Short range (less them 500m)? Need to run away quickly vs. She could take some time in packing up and walking away from the area? Will they be shotting through walls/vehicles vs. open air target?

In general, I expect she would be employed against a single target in an urban area from a not too distant range and a high position (roof, belfry, window). This is why I think a smaller and suppressed weapon would be desirable like the AMP Technical Services DSR-1 Subsonic which is a bolt-action model.

If she needs to "reach out and touch someone" that's when the .50 BMG from the Barrett XM500 would come into play.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Professor Voodoo on Tue 1 Jun 2010 - 20:29

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:When you have Noel sniping, what situation is she under? Multiple Taregets vs. Single Target surrounded by allies? Long distance (greater than 1km) vs. Short range (less them 500m)? Need to run away quickly vs. She could take some time in packing up and walking away from the area? Will they be shotting through walls/vehicles vs. open air target?

In general, I expect she would be employed against a single target in an urban area from a not too distant range and a high position (roof, belfry, window). This is why I think a smaller and suppressed weapon would be desirable like the AMP Technical Services DSR-1 Subsonic which is a bolt-action model.

If she needs to "reach out and touch someone" that's when the .50 BMG from the Barrett XM500 would come into play.
One must be flexible. Noel might need to engage several different types of targets during the same mission, and I don't think Michele would have the luxury of calling over his radio "This kind of shot is not Noel's specialty...send up Gertrude!" (they're running out of names by Noel's time-frame).

Furthermore, specializing in one tactic limits how useful the character can be to the writer. Noel might have to do a sniper mission one week and jet out to Milan for a VIP bodyguard gig the next.
Everyone seems to like the Bomb Squad Girls, but I struggle to find uses for them in my stories because they are so limited. Marisa on the other hand is designed to be a diver but I've given her what...3 dive jobs in 13 episodes? She's easy to write because of her flexibility. Just don't send her on a sniper mission.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 1 Jun 2010 - 20:52

@Professor Voodoo wrote:One must be flexible. Noel might need to engage several different types of targets during the same mission, and I don't think Michele would have the luxury of calling over his radio "This kind of shot is not Noel's specialty...send up Gertrude!" (they're running out of names by Noel's time-frame).

A very valid point. If the Agency goes through the trouble to make her a designated sniper, they're going to want a flexible person. And it does allow more more story-telling opportunities.

@Professor Voodoo wrote:Furthermore, specializing in one tactic limits how useful the character can be to the writer. Noel might have to do a sniper mission one week and jet out to Milan for a VIP bodyguard gig the next.

Damn funny you should say this... Wink

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 1 Jun 2010 - 22:32

ROTFL

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by WEBER on Wed 2 Jun 2010 - 11:47

If your still looking for anti-material weapons, check out the Lahiti L-39. Chambers a 20x125mm round with a theoretical range of 6.5km at a max. of 30 rpm. Semi-automatic with a 10 round mag. Ex Finnish anyi-aircraft/tank weapon.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 2 Jun 2010 - 20:47

No way are you ever going to hide that in your Amati Violin Case!

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Alfisti on Wed 2 Jun 2010 - 20:57

@ElfenMagix wrote:No way are you ever going to hide that in your Amati Violin Case!
Hmm... maybe if someone were to take up playing Jazz double bass it could be transported... but that's a big maybe.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Piero on Thu 3 Jun 2010 - 0:25

Lahti L-39's are 2.2 meters or seven feet, four inchs in length. But seeing as a picture sometimes gets a point across better than mere words... Laughing

http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/lahti.jpg

How bit is this double bass case you're talking about? Razz

Also, the L-39 used a round called 20x138mm Solothurn which was used in WWII era anti tank rifles and AA guns. Unlike some of the other ammo types from that era, it's kind of hard to find these days.


Last edited by Piero on Thu 3 Jun 2010 - 1:03; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edited to note I was referring to the L-39 specifically. It wasn't the only gun Lahti made.)

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 3 Jun 2010 - 0:45

Dat muzzle brake.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Alfisti on Thu 3 Jun 2010 - 0:52

Large, but not large enough apparently.


Full size double bass is about 116cm.

Image from http://www.contrabass.co.uk/players_gallery.htm

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by WEBER on Sat 5 Jun 2010 - 10:42

I heard you can use 20mm Volcan ammo with it. Not as powerful but it works. Youtube also hosts videos of people firing the Lahiti with the 20x138mm roound.
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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Piero on Sat 5 Jun 2010 - 13:49

@WEBER wrote:I heard you can use 20mm Volcan ammo with it. Not as powerful but it works. Youtube also hosts videos of people firing the Lahiti with the 20x138mm roound.

The 20x102mm ammunition used by the M61 Vulcan would require the weapon to be modified since the cartridge dimensions are different, though it's likely possible. I question whether the action would cycle properly without extensive work though.

One article by an ammunition collector stated that the 20x138mm actually is one of the most commonly available of the old anti-tank rifle cartridges. However I don't know that that necessarily makes it too easy to get a hold of in quantity (and quantity is required for proficiency training).

The 20x110mm Hispano Suiza cartridge used by one of the versions of the Denel NTW-20 (this should not be confused with the 20x82mm version of the NTW-20) is pretty comparable to the 20x138mm Solothurn in power (it can fling a 130gram shell at 850-880 meters per second, the 20x138mm can fling a 119 gram shell at about 900 meters per second). It's a WWII era cartridge as well, but I'd assume that if a company is producing a product that fires it then there's probably a good stock of the stuff around. It would be interesting to know whether it's just vast amounts of surplus or whether there are people still producing 20x110mm ammunition out there, because if there's new build ammunition available it might be much more effective than old WWII era stuff due to advances in ammunition design.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by John_234 on Wed 13 Jun 2012 - 19:33

As far as dedicated sniper rifles go AR-10 variants have been in vogue now. They're so accurate that things that used to be top notch like the PSG-1 and the WA-2000 are outperformed by rifles that can literally be built by civilians. Even the British Army, who has long eschewed AR family rifles (ignoring the SAS's extensive use of them...) have recently adopted one. Amsel recently bought one for Luce, who got fed up with carrying a bolt-action for long range work and a SMG for close-range work. It's a very one-gun approach to things, though there's a lot of logistical and practical concerns such a weapon brings on.


Check this vid out. Shots with .308 AR-10s past one thousand yards.

Plus, due to how an AR is built, you can take off the upper receiver and carry it in an instrument case or a large briefcase.

Antimaterial though - I've got a soft spot for the Barret CQ. It's a shorter version of their iconic M82. Soft-recoiling, accurate, badass looking. There's not a lot else you can ask from them. I've never seen much of a use for 20mm rifles in our kind of work, as we generally don't run into stuff worse than an armored civilian car, which a 12.7x99mm would roast.

This is probably just me, but if I need to kill something that a fifty can't scratch at long range, I'm probably going to hit it with a 84mm Carl Gustav recoiless rifle from a thousand yards.


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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Il Direttore on Sun 14 Jul 2013 - 22:24

Thread Resurrection FTW!!

----

So we all know that there are plenty of military weapons to choose from, but I was wondering about the applicability of hunting rounds to combat. 

Specifically, I was thinking about the 6.5x55 SE, or "Swedish Luger". It's apparently a very common hunting round in all of Europe, and it's also apparently easy to change the load so that you can get different terminal ballistics. Wikipedia (yes I know) says that it's used in applications from deer up to moose, so ammunition could literally be had by walking down the street, in the right city. Hunters share information, so getting a high quality hunting cartridge with good terminal ballistics wouldn't be that difficult either. And of course, a deer hunting round is going to down a human easily. 

As to the specific firearm, the reasoning I have is that there is no mechanical difference between a bolt rifle for hunting, a bolt rifle for target shooting, and a bolt rifle for military/police marksmanship. While it is true that many battle rifles of similar levels of accuracy are probably available, a CZ 550 is apparently capable of firing with .75 MOA, a Steyr Mannlicher Classic in one review I found achieved 1 MOA with iron sights, and one incredibly expensive rifle, Weatherby Mark V, managed 3/8 MOA with scope. All of these were at 100 yards. Now, caveats: I don't know what caliber was used in testing for these guns, nor do I know what the specific loads were. Furthermore, these aren't small weapons (considering that urban concealment is never an issue with hunters).

Now, the big issue we have here is that I have no idea how accuracy at 100 yards translates to accuracy at 300, 500, 800, and 1300 yards. But a sub-1 MOA grouping seems to be very good at 100 yards, and it seems to me that this should translate well over longer distances.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by John_234 on Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 3:16

El Conservatore wrote:Thread Resurrection FTW!!

----

So we all know that there are plenty of military weapons to choose from, but I was wondering about the applicability of hunting rounds to combat. 

Specifically, I was thinking about the 6.5x55 SE, or "Swedish Luger". It's apparently a very common hunting round in all of Europe, and it's also apparently easy to change the load so that you can get different terminal ballistics. Wikipedia (yes I know) says that it's used in applications from deer up to moose, so ammunition could literally be had by walking down the street, in the right city. Hunters share information, so getting a high quality hunting cartridge with good terminal ballistics wouldn't be that difficult either. And of course, a deer hunting round is going to down a human easily. 

As to the specific firearm, the reasoning I have is that there is no mechanical difference between a bolt rifle for hunting, a bolt rifle for target shooting, and a bolt rifle for military/police marksmanship. While it is true that many battle rifles of similar levels of accuracy are probably available, a CZ 550 is apparently capable of firing with .75 MOA, a Steyr Mannlicher Classic in one review I found achieved 1 MOA with iron sights, and one incredibly expensive rifle, Weatherby Mark V, managed 3/8 MOA with scope. All of these were at 100 yards. Now, caveats: I don't know what caliber was used in testing for these guns, nor do I know what the specific loads were. Furthermore, these aren't small weapons (considering that urban concealment is never an issue with hunters).

Now, the big issue we have here is that I have no idea how accuracy at 100 yards translates to accuracy at 300, 500, 800, and 1300 yards. But a sub-1 MOA grouping seems to be very good at 100 yards, and it seems to me that this should translate well over longer distances.

 As an FYI, 1 MOA means 1 inch dispersion at 100 yards, 2 inches at 200 yards, 3 inches at 300 yards.

So, for a dedicated bolt gun... maybe MOA is good for you? An 8'' group at 800 yards may or may not be a problem for you!

"Tactical" rifles tend to incorporate backup sights and are generally equipped with more practical polymer stocks. They also have heavier barrels to resist overheating and often detachable magazines for a high rate of fire. You're not far off though - most tactical bolt guns are derived from successful hunting designs, and as far as deniability goes, hunting rifles are awesome.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Il Direttore on Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 10:01

Hey, cool! I accurately (sorta) predicted something about guns! I've never done that before...

But anyway, 800 yards seems like a pretty extreme range for an SWA mission, which is usually highly urban and doing nothing more than 100 to 300 yards. If you're expecting 800 to +1200 ranges, you'd be restructuring your mission such that the sniper team is well positioned to do so and has the concurrent .338 Lapua or .50 cal weaponry. 

And also, an 8" group at 800 yards is approximately equal to 3/4 of a man's chest in diameter, isn't it? Because a 6" group is the width of my head, which is a little terrifying at 600 yards away from the enemy.  

I guess the question is "Why NOT go for the high plausible deniability hunting rifle?".

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Officer_Charon on Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 11:13

Because when you're operating with small, well-dressed children in major metropolitan areas, there are rarely any hunting rifles in evidence (even here in Jawjuh). If you're concealing and denying anyways, might as well spring for the high-end stuff.

However, if you've got the older Gen-2's or an SRT-style operation, and depending on location (The Dolomites, for example *weeps for his neglected entries into that section*), a hunting rifle would fit the bill better.

It's all about knowing your target and target area.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 11:38

In Pactio, I did have the Five Republics Faction members at the Spanish College armed with high-calibre hunting rifles as I figured that was something they could easily obtain.

As for their use by the SWA, I'm with Officer_Charon. Children with guns are going to be an issue regardless of what type of gun (unless it's a squirt gun), so they might as well have the best they can get.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Il Direttore on Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 11:46

It seems to me that it's much easier to explain away a hunting rifle in the trunk of your car than an HK417 in the trunk of your car though. If you have the ability to easily make a clean kill with any decently high quality rifle, isn't it better to have something you can cover story away, rather than an extremely suspicious military-grade weapon? 

I will say that I haven't looked into hunting locations in Italy, nor have I done much research in how to store your guns when traveling from location to location, but it can't be that horrifying to say that you're bringing your kid with you on a hunting trip to teach them about nature (or something similarly sentimental) and decided to make it a vacation by swinging through [Insert City Here].

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 17:03

El Conservatore wrote:It seems to me that it's much easier to explain away a hunting rifle in the trunk of your car than an HK417 in the trunk of your car though.

That's what your government identification card is for. Wink

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Officer_Charon on Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 17:05

Until/unless you run into one of the corrupted elements of the polizia.... Hrrmmmmmmm... *rubs chin thoughtfully*

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by John_234 on Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 17:24

There's definitely a use for a gun that any citizen could buy with effort though. I mean, in Europe most regulation with firearms is toward handguns, anyway.

But having to flash government ID is still giving away the presence of such people at what might be a potential crime scene~

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 18:17

@Officer_Charon wrote:Until/unless you run into one of the corrupted elements of the polizia.... Hrrmmmmmmm... *rubs chin thoughtfully*

Kara: "Yeah, but then I just break their neck. Problem solved."

Kiskaloo: "Uh, the girl has a point..."

Officer_Charon: "Stop encouraging her!"

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Il Direttore on Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 18:26

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@Officer_Charon wrote:Until/unless you run into one of the corrupted elements of the polizia.... Hrrmmmmmmm... *rubs chin thoughtfully*

Kara: "Yeah, but then I just break their neck. Problem solved."

Kiskaloo: "Uh, the girl has a point..."

Officer_Charon: "Stop encouraging her!"

Body trail, Kara. You can't just leave bodies everywhere you go. That causes nationwide manhunts.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 18:28

El Conservatore wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:
@Officer_Charon wrote:Until/unless you run into one of the corrupted elements of the polizia.... Hrrmmmmmmm... *rubs chin thoughtfully*

Kara: "Yeah, but then I just break their neck. Problem solved."

Kiskaloo: "Uh, the girl has a point..."

Officer_Charon: "Stop encouraging her!"

Body trail, Kara. You can't just leave bodies everywhere you go. That causes nationwide manhunts.

Kara: "Tell me about it."



Last edited by Kiskaloo on Thu 8 May 2014 - 20:49; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Mon 15 Jul 2013 - 20:38

out from the topic-

A versatile sniper rifle, Produced in many variants, the Accuracy international Arctic warfare, or the German calls' it "Scharfschützengewehr 22" sniper rifle Razz

since the one AW version accept the different kind of barrel; AWS (7.62 subsonic round), AWP (7.62x51 NATO round), and AWM (.338 magnum round) barrel.

and there's also the AWF version, easily concealable with foldable butt stock. Plus also the AWC variant; fitted with Folding stock, and 12 inch suppresor (the rifle also  supplied inside a small suitcase, thus making t more low profile compared to the other AI series)

Also, it's robust, and able to operate in a temperature below freezing point (for instance in a mountainous area)

if i could choose for the Anti-material/ Counter-sniper duty, i would choose AI AW50, or AI AS50, or the Australian version AW50F.

Since, by coincidence; My oC Yuki used the AWS/AWP variant, which coincidently also the same model used by the 9th parachute assault regiment (AWS), and the Carabinieri (AWP)
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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 5:17

@ElfenMagix wrote: Instead of cleaning her gun, she was polishing her rifle. This is a sniper behavior as far as I know; the gun is secondary, the rifle is first.

Now that you said it after reading the post from the start, polishing rifle is also my habits; during my time as a 'sniper' years ago, i always kept my AWP clean, especially the scope and bolt for no reason.
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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Alfisti on Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 6:12

I think the sporting rifle vs. tactical rifle debate is something of another horses-for-courses one. As Charon and Kisk both pointed out: if you're towing a well dressed child/teen around a major urban centre (or even a smaller town/village) then any form of rifle is going to be a little difficult to explain. In either case, getting pulled over and searched is not going to be ideal. While a civillian-legal firearm may be easier to explain should that happen, I think the chances of that occurrence are small enough and (at least inside Italy), the SWA's governmental protection strong enough that, in 90% of cases, the risk of taking a fully fledged military rifle would be outweighed by the benefits... particularly for the sort of short-duration (couple of days at the most) missions the SWA fratelli generally seem to undertake.

And if it does go pear shaped there's oft a cleanup crew within a few hours drive. I'm sure the management will understand, even if they're not exactly thrilled.

As to deniability of the fired round itself: definitely more of a concern for sniper work, where one may be dropping a target in a public place that a cleanup crew may not be able to effectively reach. That said: the SWA are not exactly the only show in town when it comes to knocking people off with military grade hardware. Should the subsequent police investigation start going down an inopportune path, I'm sure there are ways and means by which to... nip it in the bud.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Awinnell on Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 8:23

getting caught happens more often than you would think, a group of wannabe Islamic Terrorists in the UK planned to attack a march by the so called English defence league (The EDL is made up of people not quite racist enough to join the BNP !)

Fortunately the wannabe terrorist were imbeciles ,they arrived 2 hours late , the march was over and everybody had gone home, they drove to the march in a car with no tax or insurance and on the way home got pulled over by a traffic cop ! he found nail bombs, machetes and swords in the back and arrested the whole lot of them !

they were sentenced last month and to top it off they crushed the car !

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 8:35

@Awinnell wrote:...on the way home got pulled over by a traffic cop ! he found nail bombs, machetes and swords in the back and arrested the whole lot of them.

What I'm really interested to know is how the cop managed to subdue them, given the fact that he probably wasn't armed, and that they were packing an arsenal.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Alfisti on Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 8:38

@Awinnell wrote:getting caught happens more often than you would think, a group of wannabe Islamic Terrorists in the UK planned to attack a march by the so called English defence league (The EDL is made up of people not quite racist enough to join the BNP !)

Fortunately the wannabe terrorist were imbeciles ,they arrived 2 hours late , the march was over and everybody had gone home, they drove to the march in a car with no tax or insurance and on the way home got pulled over by a traffic cop ! he found nail bombs, machetes and swords in the back and arrested the whole lot of them !

they were sentenced last month and to top it off they crushed the car !
I think it could be (hopefully) assumed the SWA would hire slightly more competent staff and handlers, better versed in not drawing the wrong sort of attention and with cars in slightly better condition and fully paid up. That's what a car allowance is for after all. Razz

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Awinnell on Tue 16 Jul 2013 - 14:09

@Nachtsider wrote:
@Awinnell wrote:...on the way home got pulled over by a traffic cop ! he found nail bombs, machetes and swords in the back and arrested the whole lot of them.

What I'm really interested to know is how the cop managed to subdue them, given the fact that he probably wasn't armed, and that they were packing an arsenal.

 seems they were stopped, the car impounded and bailed out for just the lack of road tax and insurance, the car was searched prior to being crushed and that's when the devices and weapons were found (turns out they also had a couple of shotguns !)
of course it wasn't hard to find them after that as they had all been questioned for the motoring offences !

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Alfisti on Fri 25 Apr 2014 - 0:07

Ok, potentially dumb question, but can anyone identify what Soni is wielding here?


I thought this might have been answered elsewhere previously, but I can't find it if it has.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Piero on Sat 26 Apr 2014 - 14:34

Is that from one of the recent GSG chapters?  If so are there any other pictures of the weapon?

Despite the fore-end being far shorter than it should be I think your best bet is a modified M14 (or M14 copy like the Springfield M1A) with a 18.0 inch barrel and a Sage EBR chassis.  Please note that there are several variants of both the M14 and the Sage EBR chassis so an exact ID is difficult.

Modified M14 with short barrel and Sage chassis in US military service
Drawing of a original M14 with longer barrel and original front sight

The M14 was a variant of the M1 Garand that traded the 8 round en bloc clip for a 20 round detachable box magazine.  The Italians produced a Garand variant called the BM-59 which also replaced the en bloc clip with a detachable box magazine, however it differs in detail from the M14 so I don't know if it would fit an unmodified Sage chassis meant for the M14.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Sat 26 Apr 2014 - 16:17

or in Short, known by most; M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle [EBR], M14 modernized variant with metal chassis and retractable stock.

Prolly Mod.0 version, but that just me
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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Piero on Sat 26 Apr 2014 - 17:22

I'm inclined to call is a Sage EBR, even though Sage just builds the chassis and someone else generally provides the guts.  That way it doesn't matter whether the action was taken from a mil spec M14 or a civilian M1A unless the weapon is select fire (selectable semi or fully automatic) rather than semi auto only.  Civilian M1As generally lack the fun switch that military M14s and BM-59s were built with (though it should be noted that many M14s had their select fire capability removed since they were difficult to control in full auto).

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Alfisti on Sun 27 Apr 2014 - 2:51

@Piero wrote:I'm inclined to call is a Sage EBR, even though Sage just builds the chassis and someone else generally provides the guts.
That I can work with, cheers chaps.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by John_234 on Sun 27 Apr 2014 - 4:34

I'd be inclined to agree. Some sort of M14 drawn horribly out of proportion.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Piero on Thu 8 May 2014 - 20:47

One of the big issues with sniper rifles in GSG is how the girls transport the bloody things.  I've kind of wondered how Rico transports that long barreled Dragunov of hers for instance.  And despite Diana's G3-SG/1 being one of the few weapons used by my OCs that has remained relatively consistent over the years (I've changed my mind about the accessories, but the basic weapon is essentially unchanged) I still haven't found a carrying solution for it that I particularly like -and the G3-SG/1 is actually pretty short compared to most sniper rifles.

Of course there are some sniper rifles that are available with folding stocks, but even those often won't fit in a viola case unless they have a reduced length barrel.

There are of course AR-10 type rifles which can be broken down and reassembled with ease, but those don't suit every character.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Il Direttore on Thu 8 May 2014 - 21:56

Maybe Triela leads a group of cyborgs that are learning guitar/bass? That would be a pretty cool jam session to watch. You could assume something like what you see in K-on!, where the girls are constantly seen with their instruments for some reason? 

I'm literally pulling at straws here, but.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by John_234 on Thu 8 May 2014 - 22:11

One of the reasons I like ARs is that you can break them down into two parts and stuff them into a bag. Nice for that sorta thing.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Odon on Fri 9 May 2014 - 0:09

A story I'm working on involves a secret meeting between Hilshire and Roberta Guellfi.  Worried that the Agency might gatecrash things, her bodyguards are armed with Gepard GP6 Lynx rifles (with 0.50 Raufoss Mk211 rounds) and SPAS-15 shotguns (with FRAG-12 High Explosive Armor-Piercing shells).  Do y'all think this is an effective package?

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Il Direttore on Fri 9 May 2014 - 5:54

Holy crap. Raufoss and grenades? That is probably incredibly excessive. I'm not John234, obviously, but yeesh man. 

SPAS-12/SPAS-15 with standard buckshot and G3 assault rifles with standard 7.62 is probably sufficient, yo. Cyborg armor doesn't exactly hold up to assault rifles well. Even if you do go with .50 cal, you definitely don't need a Raufoss round at <300 yards. The explosives might kill Guellfi instead of the cyborg if you miss and are off by 20 yards or so. 

That being said, the AGENCY gate crashing? What exactly are you writing?

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Alfisti on Fri 9 May 2014 - 8:14

@Piero wrote:One of the big issues with sniper rifles in GSG is how the girls transport the bloody things.  I've kind of wondered how Rico transports that long barreled Dragunov of hers for instance.  And despite Diana's G3-SG/1 being one of the few weapons used by my OCs that has remained relatively consistent over the years (I've changed my mind about the accessories, but the basic weapon is essentially unchanged) I still haven't found a carrying solution for it that I particularly like -and the G3-SG/1 is actually pretty short compared to most sniper rifles.

Of course there are some sniper rifles that are available with folding stocks, but even those often won't fit in a viola case unless they have a reduced length barrel.

There are of course AR-10 type rifles which can be broken down and reassembled with ease, but those don't suit every character.
I've usually figured those missions where the girls would need to be lugging a sniper rifle would probably be planned such that they would go fairly directly from a vehicle or other form of transport to their hide, so the time where they would need to "hide in plain sight" would be minimal, making the need to explain carrying something large less of an issue. Moreover they seem to often use the handler as a spotter, and it's easier again for a fully grown man to carry a larger item.

As an aside, when writing the Rome arc of AtAC, I found the folding stock variety of Dragunov (I think it was folding stock, I would honestly need to check) would fit, just, in the larger type of hiking pack or duffle bag. Again, not ideal for a cyborg, but certainly doable for a handler.

Either way, and it's been awhile since I watched/read the series, the girls seem to, if they are going to spend time in the public eye, be limited to smaller weapons which can be concealed in one way or another. As an in-story it's probably just something the SWA has to work around when planning its ops.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Piero on Fri 9 May 2014 - 12:46

@Odon wrote:A story I'm working on involves a secret meeting between Hilshire and Roberta Guellfi.  Worried that the Agency might gatecrash things, her bodyguards are armed with Gepard GP6 Lynx rifles (with 0.50 Raufoss Mk211 rounds) and SPAS-15 shotguns (with FRAG-12 High Explosive Armor-Piercing shells).  Do y'all think this is an effective package?

Unless her bodyguards were being provided by the GIS or something I doubt they'd even have access to such things.  (Aside from the SPAS-15s anyway, since those can legally be owned even by civilians in Italy.)

@Alfisti wrote:
@Piero wrote:One of the big issues with sniper rifles in GSG is how the girls transport the bloody things.  I've kind of wondered how Rico transports that long barreled Dragunov of hers for instance.  And despite Diana's G3-SG/1 being one of the few weapons used by my OCs that has remained relatively consistent over the years (I've changed my mind about the accessories, but the basic weapon is essentially unchanged) I still haven't found a carrying solution for it that I particularly like -and the G3-SG/1 is actually pretty short compared to most sniper rifles.

Of course there are some sniper rifles that are available with folding stocks, but even those often won't fit in a viola case unless they have a reduced length barrel.

There are of course AR-10 type rifles which can be broken down and reassembled with ease, but those don't suit every character.
I've usually figured those missions where the girls would need to be lugging a sniper rifle would probably be planned such that they would go fairly directly from a vehicle or other form of transport to their hide, so the time where they would need to "hide in plain sight" would be minimal, making the need to explain carrying something large less of an issue. Moreover they seem to often use the handler as a spotter, and it's easier again for a fully grown man to carry a larger item.

As an aside, when writing the Rome arc of AtAC, I found the folding stock variety of Dragunov (I think it was folding stock, I would honestly need to check) would fit, just, in the larger type of hiking pack or duffle bag. Again, not ideal for a cyborg, but certainly doable for a handler.

Either way, and it's been awhile since I watched/read the series, the girls seem to, if they are going to spend time in the public eye, be limited to smaller weapons which can be concealed in one way or another. As an in-story it's probably just something the SWA has to work around when planning its ops.

The SVD-S folding stock version of the Dragunov is so close in length to a viola case I wonder if it might fit if stored at an angle.  Problem is, Rico's Dragunov is a standard fixed stock model (which also has a longer barrel than the -S version).

I suppose one thing to consider with Diana's G3-SG/1 is that the scope uses a standard H&K claw mount, which can supposedly be removed and remounted without loss of zero.  Not sure if that would free up very many options though.  The rifle is still over a meter long (even if only by a little).

With one of my other OCs I've been thinking of going with the "Covert" version of the Accuracy International Arctic Warfare series.  Simply because with the suppressor removed and the stock folded that version is long enough to fit in a viola case, and I prefer simply saying its the "Covert" version rather than having to specify that its a folding stock version with an optional 20 inch barrel rather than the standard 26 inch barrel.  Besides, the sound suppressor is probably helpful even if she's still using standard supersonic rounds rather than specialized subsonic ones (even if there's a supersonic "crack" from the bullet a sound suppressor can make it much more difficult to tell where a weapon was fired from).

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by John_234 on Fri 9 May 2014 - 13:28

@Odon wrote:A story I'm working on involves a secret meeting between Hilshire and Roberta Guellfi.  Worried that the Agency might gatecrash things, her bodyguards are armed with Gepard GP6 Lynx rifles (with 0.50 Raufoss Mk211 rounds) and SPAS-15 shotguns (with FRAG-12 High Explosive Armor-Piercing shells).  Do y'all think this is an effective package?
I don't think they're particularly more effective. The FRAG-12 was basically designed for saturation fire from the AA-12 against intermediate barriers. The problem with it is you still have to directly strike the target, which isn't easy with your typical pump or autoloading shotgun, especially at rifle distances. I also don't know if it's designed to cycle in standard shotguns, since it is designed for the AA-12.

As for the Raufoss, it's designed to damage delicate electronics and vehicle components. While there's nothing wrong with it per se, I don't think it makes sense for shooting human targets or even armored vehicles. It's a very specific sort of bullet. If you wanted that capacity with explosive weapons, might as well use a 40mm or a Carl Gustav.

@Piero wrote:
@Odon wrote:A story I'm working on involves a secret meeting between Hilshire and Roberta Guellfi.  Worried that the Agency might gatecrash things, her bodyguards are armed with Gepard GP6 Lynx rifles (with 0.50 Raufoss Mk211 rounds) and SPAS-15 shotguns (with FRAG-12 High Explosive Armor-Piercing shells).  Do y'all think this is an effective package?

Unless her bodyguards were being provided by the GIS or something I doubt they'd even have access to such things.  (Aside from the SPAS-15s anyway, since those can legally be owned even by civilians in Italy.)

@Alfisti wrote:
@Piero wrote:One of the big issues with sniper rifles in GSG is how the girls transport the bloody things.  I've kind of wondered how Rico transports that long barreled Dragunov of hers for instance.  And despite Diana's G3-SG/1 being one of the few weapons used by my OCs that has remained relatively consistent over the years (I've changed my mind about the accessories, but the basic weapon is essentially unchanged) I still haven't found a carrying solution for it that I particularly like -and the G3-SG/1 is actually pretty short compared to most sniper rifles.

Of course there are some sniper rifles that are available with folding stocks, but even those often won't fit in a viola case unless they have a reduced length barrel.

There are of course AR-10 type rifles which can be broken down and reassembled with ease, but those don't suit every character.
I've usually figured those missions where the girls would need to be lugging a sniper rifle would probably be planned such that they would go fairly directly from a vehicle or other form of transport to their hide, so the time where they would need to "hide in plain sight" would be minimal, making the need to explain carrying something large less of an issue. Moreover they seem to often use the handler as a spotter, and it's easier again for a fully grown man to carry a larger item.

As an aside, when writing the Rome arc of AtAC, I found the folding stock variety of Dragunov (I think it was folding stock, I would honestly need to check) would fit, just, in the larger type of hiking pack or duffle bag. Again, not ideal for a cyborg, but certainly doable for a handler.

Either way, and it's been awhile since I watched/read the series, the girls seem to, if they are going to spend time in the public eye, be limited to smaller weapons which can be concealed in one way or another. As an in-story it's probably just something the SWA has to work around when planning its ops.

The SVD-S folding stock version of the Dragunov is so close in length to a viola case I wonder if it might fit if stored at an angle.  Problem is, Rico's Dragunov is a standard fixed stock model (which also has a longer barrel than the -S version).

I suppose one thing to consider with Diana's G3-SG/1 is that the scope uses a standard H&K claw mount, which can supposedly be removed and remounted without loss of zero.  Not sure if that would free up very many options though.  The rifle is still over a meter long (even if only by a little).

With one of my other OCs I've been thinking of going with the "Covert" version of the Accuracy International Arctic Warfare series.  Simply because with the suppressor removed and the stock folded that version is long enough to fit in a viola case, and I prefer simply saying its the "Covert" version rather than having to specify that its a folding stock version with an optional 20 inch barrel rather than the standard 26 inch barrel.  Besides, the sound suppressor is probably helpful even if she's still using standard supersonic rounds rather than specialized subsonic ones (even if there's a supersonic "crack" from the bullet a sound suppressor can make it much more difficult to tell where a weapon was fired from).
I find 'weapon hidden in plain sight' is something more for accidents or eventualities. A sniper rifle is a weapon that's employed with discretion from what's preferably a long distance. Like was said, you'd probably transport them from a vehicle or retrieve them from a dead drop.

Though honestly I think people do have a tendency to bring more gun than a job needs. In a typical 'sniper shot' in the urban Italian areas, you could really just use a short-barreled rifle with a suppressor and an optic. A short barreled weapon is not less accurate. It may have less muzzle velocity, and in turn more drop and less soft tissue effect, but if you're shooting so close it might be a lot better than a bolt gun where you can make fast follow-up shots.

Keep in mind the Dragunov is not especially accurate. It's pretty much a battle rifle, and its use reflects that precision isn't 100% necessary.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Awinnell on Fri 9 May 2014 - 14:39


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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Odon on Fri 9 May 2014 - 15:12

@John_234 wrote:
@Odon wrote:A story I'm working on involves a secret meeting between Hilshire and Roberta Guellfi.  Worried that the Agency might gatecrash things, her bodyguards are armed with Gepard GP6 Lynx rifles (with 0.50 Raufoss Mk211 rounds) and SPAS-15 shotguns (with FRAG-12 High Explosive Armor-Piercing shells).  Do y'all think this is an effective package?
I don't think they're particularly more effective. The FRAG-12 was basically designed for saturation fire from the AA-12 against intermediate barriers. The problem with it is you still have to directly strike the target, which isn't easy with your typical pump or autoloading shotgun, especially at rifle distances. I also don't know if it's designed to cycle in standard shotguns, since it is designed for the AA-12.

So some kind of rifled slug round?  Maybe a barrier penetration magnum shell.


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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Piero on Fri 9 May 2014 - 15:35

@John_234 wrote:
@Piero wrote:
@Alfisti wrote:
@Piero wrote:One of the big issues with sniper rifles in GSG is how the girls transport the bloody things.  I've kind of wondered how Rico transports that long barreled Dragunov of hers for instance.  And despite Diana's G3-SG/1 being one of the few weapons used by my OCs that has remained relatively consistent over the years (I've changed my mind about the accessories, but the basic weapon is essentially unchanged) I still haven't found a carrying solution for it that I particularly like -and the G3-SG/1 is actually pretty short compared to most sniper rifles.

Of course there are some sniper rifles that are available with folding stocks, but even those often won't fit in a viola case unless they have a reduced length barrel.

There are of course AR-10 type rifles which can be broken down and reassembled with ease, but those don't suit every character.
I've usually figured those missions where the girls would need to be lugging a sniper rifle would probably be planned such that they would go fairly directly from a vehicle or other form of transport to their hide, so the time where they would need to "hide in plain sight" would be minimal, making the need to explain carrying something large less of an issue. Moreover they seem to often use the handler as a spotter, and it's easier again for a fully grown man to carry a larger item.

As an aside, when writing the Rome arc of AtAC, I found the folding stock variety of Dragunov (I think it was folding stock, I would honestly need to check) would fit, just, in the larger type of hiking pack or duffle bag. Again, not ideal for a cyborg, but certainly doable for a handler.

Either way, and it's been awhile since I watched/read the series, the girls seem to, if they are going to spend time in the public eye, be limited to smaller weapons which can be concealed in one way or another. As an in-story it's probably just something the SWA has to work around when planning its ops.

The SVD-S folding stock version of the Dragunov is so close in length to a viola case I wonder if it might fit if stored at an angle.  Problem is, Rico's Dragunov is a standard fixed stock model (which also has a longer barrel than the -S version).

I suppose one thing to consider with Diana's G3-SG/1 is that the scope uses a standard H&K claw mount, which can supposedly be removed and remounted without loss of zero.  Not sure if that would free up very many options though.  The rifle is still over a meter long (even if only by a little).

With one of my other OCs I've been thinking of going with the "Covert" version of the Accuracy International Arctic Warfare series.  Simply because with the suppressor removed and the stock folded that version is long enough to fit in a viola case, and I prefer simply saying its the "Covert" version rather than having to specify that its a folding stock version with an optional 20 inch barrel rather than the standard 26 inch barrel.  Besides, the sound suppressor is probably helpful even if she's still using standard supersonic rounds rather than specialized subsonic ones (even if there's a supersonic "crack" from the bullet a sound suppressor can make it much more difficult to tell where a weapon was fired from).
I find 'weapon hidden in plain sight' is something more for accidents or eventualities. A sniper rifle is a weapon that's employed with discretion from what's preferably a long distance. Like was said, you'd probably transport them from a vehicle or retrieve them from a dead drop.

Though honestly I think people do have a tendency to bring more gun than a job needs. In a typical 'sniper shot' in the urban Italian areas, you could really just use a short-barreled rifle with a suppressor and an optic. A short barreled weapon is not less accurate. It may have less muzzle velocity, and in turn more drop and less soft tissue effect, but if you're shooting so close it might be a lot better than a bolt gun where you can make fast follow-up shots.

Keep in mind the Dragunov is not especially accurate. It's pretty much a battle rifle, and its use reflects that precision isn't 100% necessary.

Point on the too much gun thing.  Diana actually keeps a little clip on 4x Hensoldt in her HK53's viola case.  But the G3-SG/1 is her "iconic" weapon so I like it to see some use, even if the HK53 gets lugged around town more frequently.  Also I think an ability to transport a weapon covertly without a vehicle is potentially useful -even for something as simple as transporting the weapon to and from the handler's vehicle.

As a note, I was thinking Diana's sniper training concentrated on ranges of 600 meters and less.  Ditto Rosetta (the girl with the AW Covert).

I have read very mixed things about the Dragunov SVD's accuracy.  According to some only a highly tuned Dragunov would be able to meet the accuracy standards the weapons supposedly had to meet in order to be accepted.  On the other hand there are claims that Finnish military Dragunovs with high quality Lapua ammo can shoot 0.75 MOA.

I don't really consider the Dragunov SVD a "battle rifle" in the sense of a FAL, G3 or M14 even if accurized M14s have comparable accuracy.  Simply because it was designed from the ground up as a specialist sharpshooter's weapon while the others were designed for more general issue.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 9 May 2014 - 17:30

So while Kara mostly did "close-up" work when sniping, for the Rehabilitation Branch Kumari will be doing much longer-ranged engagements because of the nature of working in cartel-controlled territory. 

Since they now work for the Americans, I am thinking of using American weapons like the Remington MSR (in .338 LM) and M110 as they are combat-tested and have received good reviews from the troops. The other option is to go with the "classics" like the Sako TRG-22/42 and Accuracy International Arctic Warfare.

There is also the option of the "all-in-one" with the Desert Tactical Arms Stealth Recon which can quickly be adapted to shoot anything from .243 Winchester to .338LM.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by John_234 on Fri 9 May 2014 - 18:51

@Odon wrote:
@John_234 wrote:
@Odon wrote:A story I'm working on involves a secret meeting between Hilshire and Roberta Guellfi.  Worried that the Agency might gatecrash things, her bodyguards are armed with Gepard GP6 Lynx rifles (with 0.50 Raufoss Mk211 rounds) and SPAS-15 shotguns (with FRAG-12 High Explosive Armor-Piercing shells).  Do y'all think this is an effective package?
I don't think they're particularly more effective. The FRAG-12 was basically designed for saturation fire from the AA-12 against intermediate barriers. The problem with it is you still have to directly strike the target, which isn't easy with your typical pump or autoloading shotgun, especially at rifle distances. I also don't know if it's designed to cycle in standard shotguns, since it is designed for the AA-12.

So some kind of rifled slug round?  Maybe a barrier penetration magnum shell.
Just a 7.62x51mm rifle, IMO. A shotgun will generally speaking be inferior to a rifle. Slugs kick harder, have more drop, are less accurate and don't always hit harder than rifle equivalents. Unless it's a characterization thing for a mook or something, like some dude using a specific gun all the time.

If you want to go the explosive route, maybe a 40mm grenade launcher.

@Piero wrote:
@John_234 wrote:I find 'weapon hidden in plain sight' is something more for accidents or eventualities. A sniper rifle is a weapon that's employed with discretion from what's preferably a long distance. Like was said, you'd probably transport them from a vehicle or retrieve them from a dead drop.

Though honestly I think people do have a tendency to bring more gun than a job needs. In a typical 'sniper shot' in the urban Italian areas, you could really just use a short-barreled rifle with a suppressor and an optic. A short barreled weapon is not less accurate. It may have less muzzle velocity, and in turn more drop and less soft tissue effect, but if you're shooting so close it might be a lot better than a bolt gun where you can make fast follow-up shots.

Keep in mind the Dragunov is not especially accurate. It's pretty much a battle rifle, and its use reflects that precision isn't 100% necessary.

Point on the too much gun thing.  Diana actually keeps a little clip on 4x Hensoldt in her HK53's viola case.  But the G3-SG/1 is her "iconic" weapon so I like it to see some use, even if the HK53 gets lugged around town more frequently.  Also I think an ability to transport a weapon covertly without a vehicle is potentially useful -even for something as simple as transporting the weapon to and from the handler's vehicle.

As a note, I was thinking Diana's sniper training concentrated on ranges of 600 meters and less.  Ditto Rosetta (the girl with the AW Covert).


How bout this? Stick a collapsing stock on the G3, even if it is a bit of a case of blasphemy? Though the H&K's stock comes off with two pins, so it might not be a huge issue. Definitely not fitting into a small case either way.

I suppose at 600 meters if you're trying to strike a man-sized target with a cold shot, I'd start moving away from battle rifles like the G3/SG1 toward more specialized platforms like bolt guns and AR-10s.

@Piero wrote:I have read very mixed things about the Dragunov SVD's accuracy.  According to some only a highly tuned Dragunov would be able to meet the accuracy standards the weapons supposedly had to meet in order to be accepted.  On the other hand there are claims that Finnish military Dragunovs with high quality Lapua ammo can shoot 0.75 MOA.

I don't really consider the Dragunov SVD a "battle rifle" in the sense of a FAL, G3 or M14 even if accurized M14s have comparable accuracy.  Simply because it was designed from the ground up as a specialist sharpshooter's weapon while the others were designed for more general issue.
It is true the SVD was designed to rectify design features in the AKM that were prone to reducing accuracy. Changing from long-stroke gas piston to short stroke, making a receiver from scratch, a different gas block and especially the ammo.

However, it is designed for tolerances that are different from Western standards. The nearest equivalent is the PSG-1, which isn't mechanically very different from the G3, but is far more accurate consistently. It wasn't designed with that expectation in mind though, and it's more of a squad-level marksman's rifle, which is more analogous to what the Western world uses the G3 and M14 for.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Piero on Sun 11 May 2014 - 0:32

You could probably modify a G3-SG/1 to use a the G3A4's collapsible stock if you also changed the recoil buffer (G3-SG/1s use a heavy two stage recoil buffer), but I question whether it would be very stable.  I also tend to prefer to keep the weapons of my first Gen OCs relatively stock.  (Though I have considered a reflex type suppressor for Diana's SG/1 and a Surefire 628 forend for her HK53.)

I'd kind of thought the G3-SG/1 would be adequate for ranges up to 600 meters, but with its accuracy rated at about 1-1.5 MOA with good ammo I guess it might be advisable for her to aim center of mass at upper end of that envelope.  Though apparently a guy who helped the Kenyan army re-introduce sniping claimed over a third of his students could hit a head sized target at 950 meters despite the rangefinder on the SG/1's scope maxing out at 600.  Then again he didn't specify whether those were first round hits.

One problem with both the G3-SG/1 and Dragunov is how many people have experience with even Chinese Dragunov clones in .308 or civilian G3 clones fitted with demilled SG/1 parts kits -let alone the real deal?  Its not really that easy to verify some of the claims made about the accuracy of these rifles.  Especially since it probably varies from example to example.

Speaking of claims, supposedly Dragunov SVDs are more accurate if the shooter grips the magazine instead of the handguard.  That actually seems believable.  The claim that having the bayonet mounted is useful for long range shooting seems iffy though.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by John_234 on Sun 11 May 2014 - 16:39

@Piero wrote:You could probably modify a G3-SG/1 to use a the G3A4's collapsible stock if you also changed the recoil buffer (G3-SG/1s use a heavy two stage recoil buffer), but I question whether it would be very stable.  I also tend to prefer to keep the weapons of my first Gen OCs relatively stock.  (Though I have considered a reflex type suppressor for Diana's SG/1 and a Surefire 628 forend for her HK53.)

I'd kind of thought the G3-SG/1 would be adequate for ranges up to 600 meters, but with its accuracy rated at about 1-1.5 MOA with good ammo I guess it might be advisable for her to aim center of mass at upper end of that envelope.  Though apparently a guy who helped the Kenyan army re-introduce sniping claimed over a third of his students could hit a head sized target at 950 meters despite the rangefinder on the SG/1's scope maxing out at 600.  Then again he didn't specify whether those were first round hits.

One problem with both the G3-SG/1 and Dragunov is how many people have experience with even Chinese Dragunov clones in .308 or civilian G3 clones fitted with demilled SG/1 parts kits -let alone the real deal?  Its not really that easy to verify some of the claims made about the accuracy of these rifles.  Especially since it probably varies from example to example.

Speaking of claims, supposedly Dragunov SVDs are more accurate if the shooter grips the magazine instead of the handguard.  That actually seems believable.  The claim that having the bayonet mounted is useful for long range shooting seems iffy though.
I just don't find the G3/SG1 remotely practical for anything requiring discreet transportation, or firing with a smaller shooter. I guess you could try to dissemble it into rifle and stock maybe, It's truly a big firearm, and if you insist on using it I think only the prepared shooting position sort of deal really makes sense.

If the stock change is impractical, maybe a second G3 works. I dunno.

Again you are working with a sharpshooter in a conventional military context, where first shot hits are less an issue than simply reaching out to a longer range than a normal rifle. At the time, nobody who was actually engaging in counter-terrorism used the G3/SG1, since the PSG1 existed around the same time and was purpose-built for it. Even then though, engagement ranges in counter-terrorism are pretty short for safety reasons.

I know of a person who fired one of the rare Dragunov imports. He found it exceptionally accurate compared to any other AK variant,  used it in a few impromptu rifle competitions. Tore it down to confirm it was short stroke, the receiver was built right and all that. No 'X' mark like a .308 clone. He also happened to like the PTR-91 for being pretty accurate but... at the end of the day, he did admit ARs were more accurate than both.

Its just due to engineering. Receiver rigidity doesn't matter with an AR so much given the bolt locks into the barrel and even a clumsily built one can be somewhat a shooter. In that sense it's not that the G3 or SVD are inaccurate, but the standard of an exceptionally accurate rifle has moved on a bit.

From a characterization perspective I don't personally think its a big deal. If someone's shot the same gun for a long time, they're probably going to keep using it because of experience built upon it. Paper accuracy probably doesn't matter in the least.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Piero on Sat 17 May 2014 - 15:57

Presumably the PSG-1 has an accuracy advantage to justify the increased weight and bulk, but the G3-SG/1 and HK33-SG/1 have both seen use by police sharpshooters (I've even read things indicating the HK33-SG/1 was marketed mainly to police).  As of 2011 familiarization with the G3-SG/1 was part of the Carabinieri's marksmanship course.  Which might actually be the best reason for Diana to use one, as her handler is former Carabinieri/GIS and would be familiar with the weapon.

Its also probably worth noting that things have changed over the last decade or so.  When the GSG anime aired in 2004, the only regular production SR-25s Knight Armaments would certify as being able to shoot under 1 MOA were the ones with 24 inch heavy barrels -the 24 inch "Match" rifles were certified for under 1 MOA but the 20 inch "Lightweight Match" rifles weren't.  Today, not even the sniper rifle versions of the SR-25 have a barrel length exceeding twenty inches.

I have considered a 7.62mm AR style weapon for a few characters though.  Alessia uses one of the older 24 inch heavy barrel guns (either a SR-25 Match or an older version of the  AR-10T) and I've consider one of the German built 7.62mm ARs that will take G3 mags for Gina (one of my second Gen OCs).

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by John_234 on Sat 17 May 2014 - 16:12

That's a commercial example though. People have been building accurate rifles for a very long time, and the options have been out there, if at cost. And while AR-10s were an example for autoloaders, maybe a break-down bolt rifle would be more useable than a G3 variant when you have to transport it.

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 3 Jul 2014 - 8:24

Is anyone able to identify the sniper rifle Tina Sprout employs on the anime Black Bullet?

http://bayrizki.deviantart.com/art/Black-Bullet-Tina-Sprout-Kakoii-Gunner-HD-Rend-459079385

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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Thu 3 Jul 2014 - 9:38

@Kiskaloo wrote:Is anyone able to identify the sniper rifle Tina Sprout employs on the anime Black Bullet?

http://bayrizki.deviantart.com/art/Black-Bullet-Tina-Sprout-Kakoii-Gunner-HD-Rend-459079385
kinda remind me of Accuracy international AX-50, based on the stock and muzzle brake... but since it's Sci-fi anime style... it's a sci-fi sniper rifle then Razz
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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

Post by Awinnell on Sat 12 Jul 2014 - 17:24

So self guiding bullets are now a real thing


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Re: Dedicated Sniper and Anti-Material Rifles

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