Intelligence?

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Intelligence?

Post by Kalshion on Sat 8 May 2010 - 20:44

While writing the chapter of my story that introduces an OC, I realized that I didn't really know a lot about the conditioning process. I've read a few threads here, but the question that is on my mind wasn't fully answered (either that, or I'm missing the info)

Basically; the girls seem to be intelligent right from the getgo, so that begs the question - does the conditioning process implant knowledge into them? Sorry if this was already answered, I haven't been able to find it

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Jacen Starslayer on Sat 8 May 2010 - 20:49

Depends on which Generation. Second Generation Cyborgs have had basic knowledge instilled into them before they even wake up. First Generation have to be taught from scratch.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Robert Frazer on Sat 8 May 2010 - 20:50

The cyborgs definitely come with rudimentary knowledge preprogrammed into them - when Alessandro is being introduced to Petrushka he's told that she's "completed her basic life training". This seems to involve knowledge of the Agency, its staff and mission (and of course her relationship with her handler), and miscellaneous military details (e.g. identifying weapons). The cyborg doesn't need a familiarisation period to learn about and get used to the Agency - she can launch straight into combat training. as soon as she's woken up

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 8 May 2010 - 20:57

The girls, first and second generation, appear to have an encyclopedic knowledge of weapons. Petra correctly identifies her Spectre in the manga when Sandro shows it to her and in the anime, Henrietta correctly identifies her pistol when shown it and promptly strips and reassembles it.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kalshion on Sat 8 May 2010 - 20:58

I see, I don't know 'who' Petrushka is, but regardless:

1. The thing is, how much would be to much? (I want to try and keep this conditioning stuff within canon as much as possible, but still have room to menuvere in a story)

2. Otherwise, from the canon characters we have, who would be considered first and second generation?

OT: Geez you people are fast at replying, I post, load up my document to write and then I was told there are replies... I like it Very Happy

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 8 May 2010 - 21:02

First generation girls include Henrietta, Rico, Claes, Triela, Elsa, Chiara, Silvia and Beatrice.

Second generation girls include Petrushka and three others who as of yet have not been formally named.

Personally, I imagine the girls are "programmed" with full knowledge of the weapons their handlers have chosen for them and then basic knowledge of the rest of the weapons in the armory.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 8 May 2010 - 21:03

The girls know what is programmed into them. How much depends on the type/generation they are.

But the basics of things like language and ability, that the girls come with from the outside. In that, it would be funny if Petrushka still had her Russian Accent. Doubt it though, they probably programmed her to be Italian as much as possible.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Sat 8 May 2010 - 21:21

There seems to be a lot of amiguity & contradiction in canon, which indicates to me that Yu plays with these plot devices to fit the requirements of the story. As writers I think we should do the same...within reason.

A cyborg who leaves the medical lab knowing everything she will ever need to use sounds...well...boring. The learning process is an important way of letting your cyborg character bond with those around her (including her handler), as well as letting your audience get to know the girl.

@ElfenMagix wrote:In that, it would be funny if Petrushka still had her Russian Accent
I had my Marisa character retain her Irish accent...but only when she speaks English. 99% of the time she's speaking the Italian that was imprinted on her...which she considers her native language. Marisa's pre-agency past in Dublin is a secret from her, so the accent confuses her.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kalshion on Sat 8 May 2010 - 21:24

Ahhhh ok; I see.

That means my idea to use a fourth generation won't work, since a third generation doesn't exist. Ughs, need to revise what I know, oh well that's why I posted.

Still curious how they programmed that stuff into them; I mean they aren't using a mechanical brain (like in an anime called Ghost in the Shell) so I'm rather baffled at how they do that -.-

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 8 May 2010 - 21:30

@Kalshion wrote:Still curious how they programmed that stuff into them; I mean they aren't using a mechanical brain (like in an anime called Ghost in the Shell) so I'm rather baffled at how they do that -.-

The Agency is very adept at mind control techniques.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kalshion on Sat 8 May 2010 - 21:35

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@Kalshion wrote:Still curious how they programmed that stuff into them; I mean they aren't using a mechanical brain (like in an anime called Ghost in the Shell) so I'm rather baffled at how they do that -.-

The Agency is very adept at mind control techniques.

Obviously

Of course, that begs another question - but I'll save that for another thread Wink

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 8 May 2010 - 22:15

@Kalshion wrote:Ahhhh ok; I see.

That means my idea to use a fourth generation won't work, since a third generation doesn't exist. Ughs, need to revise what I know, oh well that's why I posted.

Still curious how they programmed that stuff into them; I mean they aren't using a mechanical brain (like in an anime called Ghost in the Shell) so I'm rather baffled at how they do that -.-
Only in the OC Universe, are there third and forth generation cyborgs.
Generation 3 was created by WestNile. There are several Generation 3 cyborgs floating about.
Generation 4 was created by Colonel Marksman, and much of her (there is only 1) is classified. You can PM/Email him for further details.

Its nice to have a wiki to organize all this information Evil

Memory seems to reside in the Thalamus and Hypothalamus of the Diencephalon region of the brain. Alter the chemical/biological reactions of the area, you alter memories. In altering this area, the SWA Docs program the cyborgs. Note: Other Forms of memories reside in other areas of the brain, like Emotional Memories, which the SWA Docs have not figured how to control in the case of Cleas in V8 (or V9 I think).


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Re: Intelligence?

Post by MP5 on Sat 8 May 2010 - 22:20

I have a different take on what a Gen III cyborg is. Just look at Erina's profile.

Granted, however, she is a test for the American program, so she's different from what was established by WestNile and Colonel Marksman.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 8 May 2010 - 22:26

Noël is not a true third generation cyborg, but being converted almost a decade after the program started, most of the kinks and bugs have been worked out by her series.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 8 May 2010 - 22:31

Max and Rachel are the other 2 USA/SWA tied cyborgs, though the USA has/had its own cyborg program.

The thing with Type 3s is that they are highly specialized for a specific mission type. Professor's Voodoo's Marina and Marisa fit as Type 3 cyborgs.

But what you have as a type 3 is as per your definition. I'm just the nut trying to organized all this info together.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Sun 9 May 2010 - 0:44

@ElfenMagix wrote: Professor's Voodoo's Marina and Marisa fit as Type 3 cyborgs.

But what you have as a type 3 is as per your definition.
Perhaps, but since Yu never introduced a 3rd generation, and since I place the "birth" of Marisa in the spring after the battle at St. Mark's Campinelle I just called them both Generation 2 cyborgs with special modifications.

One of the significant differences between canon Gen 1 and Gen 2 is that the second generation girls don't have to learn how to use their bodies. Claes & Henrietta were both shown having difficulty with things like balance, control, and depth perception, but after a few years of data collection (and experimentation on Claes) the Generation 2 girls come "pre-calibrated" so to speak.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Five_X on Sun 9 May 2010 - 1:47

GSG Wiki wrote:On a social aspect, being a "specialist" also affects a 3rd gen's attachment to pears.

I think the fruit's alright, but are they really that terrible, so that the SWA has to condition the cyborgs to despise them? Seems a bit unnecessary.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Sun 9 May 2010 - 2:01

@Five_X wrote:
GSG Wiki wrote:On a social aspect, being a "specialist" also affects a 3rd gen's attachment to pears.

I think the fruit's alright, but are they really that terrible, so that the SWA has to condition the cyborgs to despise them? Seems a bit unnecessary.
They don't necessarily despise them...perhaps they just get very emotionally attached to them.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 9 May 2010 - 3:42

@Professor Voodoo wrote:A cyborg who leaves the medical lab knowing everything she will ever need to use sounds...well...boring. The learning process is an important way of letting your cyborg character bond with those around her (including her handler), as well as letting your audience get to know the girl.
I think that’s one of the reasons most people are drawn to the 1st generation girls. It seems that Yu got lazy with the gen2’s and said, “Fuck all that training and bonding. I just want to get to the damn story!” Thus, the gen2’s come off the assembly line all ready to hit the streets.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Sun 9 May 2010 - 4:07

@Danjo3 wrote:I think that’s one of the reasons most people are drawn to the 1st generation girls. It seems that Yu got lazy with the gen2’s and said, “Fuck all that training and bonding. I just want to get to the damn story!” Thus, the gen2’s come off the assembly line all ready to hit the streets.

Petrushka is the only canon Gen 2 we've really gotten to know yet and she is going through an introductory learning process too...it's just different from the one the Gen 1 girls went through. With Petra we see Alessandro teaching her the craft, from make-up to observation to public relations. As she learns she sorts out her relationship with Sando and bonds with him (not that way you pervs).

I think Yu did speed up the introduction process for her because making the new character go through everything the Gen 1's did would be redundant. The audience has seen that already...show us something new.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by maverick375 on Sun 9 May 2010 - 7:59

My thought has always been that weapons, friend/foe, and movement (such as basic walking, hand-eye, and swimming) is part of the life-skills training they receive before they are turned over to the handler. They keep the dosages of drugs and brainwashing high to program them as quickly as possible( likely in a lab environment behind the big steel door in case they snap under pressure or malfunction), which allows no time at all for outside influences (which is why they are "dumb" when they are handed over).

Now, encyclopedic knowledge of a firearm, including it's tear-down, is not the same as knowing how to control the body to shoot it accurately. Add to that the fact that all of the cyborgs have a hobby of some kind to build their fine-motor skills (Henrietta the violin, Rico the house of cards, Petra her ballet), and you are left understanding that they have to have time to learn to control their bodies effectively, not just for movement.

So... It falls on the handler to train the girl in their job, which is why Petra asked Sandro about why they are not doing weapons training immediately. The story then jumps to a few months later, and we see Petra able to use a gun well enough to shoot down an RPG. She had training in there somewhere, folks, not programmed with it, and happened after her first trip out, likely with Jean putting pressure on Sandro. You can't program motor skills without a robotic brain, so the cyborgs have to actually practice to gain experience.

The best way to think about a cyborg that is given to a handler is that they can move, understand at least one language (Italian), know who is in charge, other select library knowledge, and have a sense of self. Everything else is dependent on what they knew before (some information is retained, we know that), and what the handler chooses to teach them. What they retain from before is probably out of the control of the lab, who can suppress long-term memories but not eliminate them entirely.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 9 May 2010 - 9:18

@Five_X wrote:
GSG Wiki wrote:On a social aspect, being a "specialist" also affects a 3rd gen's attachment to pears.

I think the fruit's alright, but are they really that terrible, so that the SWA has to condition the cyborgs to despise them? Seems a bit unnecessary.
WestNile wrote that a long time ago and I never corrected it- lol! ROTFL
OK, time to fix that!!!

It now reads: "On a social aspect, being a "specialist" also affects a 3rd gen's attachment to their peers."

Yeah, the Wiki is filled with tiny mistakes like that.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 9 May 2010 - 9:25

@maverick375 wrote:My thought has always been that weapons, friend/foe, and movement (such as basic walking, hand-eye, and swimming) is part of the life-skills training they receive before they are turned over to the handler. They keep the dosages of drugs and brainwashing high to program them as quickly as possible( likely in a lab environment behind the big steel door in case they snap under pressure or malfunction), which allows no time at all for outside influences (which is why they are "dumb" when they are handed over).

Now, encyclopedic knowledge of a firearm, including it's tear-down, is not the same as knowing how to control the body to shoot it accurately. Add to that the fact that all of the cyborgs have a hobby of some kind to build their fine-motor skills (Henrietta the violin, Rico the house of cards, Petra her ballet), and you are left understanding that they have to have time to learn to control their bodies effectively, not just for movement.

So... It falls on the handler to train the girl in their job, which is why Petra asked Sandro about why they are not doing weapons training immediately. The story then jumps to a few months later, and we see Petra able to use a gun well enough to shoot down an RPG. She had training in there somewhere, folks, not programmed with it, and happened after her first trip out, likely with Jean putting pressure on Sandro. You can't program motor skills without a robotic brain, so the cyborgs have to actually practice to gain experience.

The best way to think about a cyborg that is given to a handler is that they can move, understand at least one language (Italian), know who is in charge, other select library knowledge, and have a sense of self. Everything else is dependent on what they knew before (some information is retained, we know that), and what the handler chooses to teach them. What they retain from before is probably out of the control of the lab, who can suppress long-term memories but not eliminate them entirely.

Mav is very much right on this. Anyone can have encyclopedic knowledge but never applying it into actual practice or experience means nothing. The hand/eye coordination was never perfected or even learned.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Alfisti on Sun 9 May 2010 - 10:41

Mav's pretty much hit where I stand on the subject as well: Girls come out with a basic technical knowledge and the life-skills they need to function in society, but it's up to the handler to get them to apply those skills and knowledge effectively. From memory the second Gens got a much more comprehensive "download" than the first gens did, but it's all still just technical information.

As for things they remember from their previous life, I must admit I always considered those moments of personality and prior learning to be muted when the girls wake up. Then afterwards, over time, they start to develop back into a more complete personality, coupled with what their experiences at the SWA are.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kalshion on Sun 9 May 2010 - 14:55

So, are we sayign that these live skill based classes are taken personally or are they just programmed with them? (is sitll a bit confused)

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 9 May 2010 - 15:32

@Kalshion wrote:So, are we sayign that these live skill based classes are taken personally or are they just programmed with them? (is sitll a bit confused)

I expect it is a mixture of both.

For example, the girls are much stronger after their augmentation, so they must undergo some sort of unconscious "calibration" so that when they don't apply too much force when using their bodies in everyday situations.

We know the first generation girls had to learn "the social graces" in public and that this didn't always go well. Both Elsa and Henrietta almost killed people in public because they mis-interpreted their actions as threats against their handlers. Claes and Henrietta also almost killed each other (and each other's handlers) for the same reason. In this latter case, we know their conditioning was changed and with Petrushka, she's comfortable being in public right from the start, so it's likely her comfort level is based in part on those changes.

But the girls are not robots. So you can program them not to perceive a waiter approaching with a steak knife as a threat to them or their handler, but you probably cannot program Emily Post's book on table manners and etiquette into them. So they need to learn how to properly conduct themselves in public and that would be where the handler taking them out into public to train them would come in.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by maverick375 on Sun 9 May 2010 - 21:26

Think of the life skills training as being a re-education, like for people that have had strokes. The need to learn to walk again, or how to hold a fork, or how to go to the bathroom, because the brain has to learn the new controls for everything.

Giving a handler his/her cyborg in a physically untrained state would be oppressive. These are people who are action oriented by nature, so they probably aren't going to be very keen, or qualified, to teach the 'basics' to their cyborg.

This kind of training is best done by qualified people in a controlled setting, like behind a heavy blast door. This way they can hash out the mechanical flaws for each cyborg in relatively safe environs, and the handler gets a quality product by the time he starts to work with it.

In answer to the question, There are two stages of training for a cyborg. Basic 'life skills', and what they learn after they are introduced to their handler and the rest of the agency.

The life skills cannot be programmed beyond intellectual concept, because they are things that must be physically experienced to be learned.
I can best illustrate this by my own experience with a motorcycle clutch. My uncle told me that I 'needed to let out the clutch while adding throttle'. My own experience with that method was resulting in stalls, so I modified my behavior until I figured out that I needed to let out a little clutch until it started to catch, then add throttle. The physical motions and feel are the non-conceptual learned data.

I applied given concept information to a physical action until I learned the proper way to do it. This is what the cyborg "basic life skills" training is- Learning how to apply the programmed (or unprogrammed) concepts of basic, everyday skills in their physical ways.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kalshion on Mon 10 May 2010 - 2:49

Henrietta attacking another Cyborg? O.o

Must be in one of the books or chapters I haven't read yet, as I don't recall seeing that in S1 of the anime or in the currently released mangas.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Mon 10 May 2010 - 3:27

@Kalshion wrote:Henrietta attacking another Cyborg? O.o

Must be in one of the books or chapters I haven't read yet, as I don't recall seeing that in S1 of the anime or in the currently released mangas.
It's there...Chapter 6 of the Manga.

Don't worry...Henrietta doesn't remember doing it either.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kalshion on Mon 10 May 2010 - 4:51

I'm guessing that memory was erased or something?

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by theprodigalson on Mon 10 May 2010 - 11:26

It was in the first Claes episode of season one. At the range Henrietta's gun jammed and she looked down the barrel to see what was the matter. Raballo freaked because she could have killed herself and started yelling and roughing Jose up so Henrietta picked up a table to crush him and Claes intervened by jumping in the way and preparing to gun down Henrietta.

And yes, the event was erased from both of their memories.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 10 May 2010 - 17:37

@theprodigalson wrote:It was in the first Claes episode of season one. At the range Henrietta's gun jammed and she looked down the barrel to see what was the matter. Raballo freaked because she could have killed herself and started yelling and roughing Jose up so Henrietta picked up a table to crush him and Claes intervened by jumping in the way and preparing to gun down Henrietta.

And yes, the event was erased from both of their memories.
1) First Rabello roughed up Henrietta in trying to get the gun away from her face.
2) Jose tried to stop Rabello to stop him from man-handling his cyborg. Jose lost and was then instead being man-handled by Rabello.
3) It was a steel bench Henrietta tried to use on Rabello. Most gun ranges wont have tables to work on outside of the small thing in your firing lane, but they do have steel benches for ppl to sit and wait their turn or instruct/score the shooter.

Most importantly, 4) The events weren't erased from Clease' memory, but she was reprogrammed to never attack another handler again. Jose protested against Henrietta getting the same treatment, was spared the reprogramming.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 10 May 2010 - 18:17

Jean noted his brother would protest, but his statement was pretty clear that protest would be overruled.

So Henrietta and Claes were both reprogrammed, as I expect were all the cyborgs (which is probably why they were shocked when Elsa still killed Lauro).

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kalshion on Mon 10 May 2010 - 18:30

Yes, but didn't Elsa kill Lauro due to Lauro's mistreatment of her?

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 10 May 2010 - 18:44

@Kalshion wrote:Yes, but didn't Elsa kill Lauro due to Lauro's mistreatment of her?

My issue with the "mistreatment" angle is it was created by the anime scriptwriters and not by Yu Aida. So I personally don't recognize it.

In the manga, Jose did say that Lauro did not pay much attention to her outside of work so I personally believe that Elsa was infatuated with Lauro (Triela claims this was so) and decided that if she could not have him, nobody could. Henrietta is essentially the same way with Jose.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kalshion on Mon 10 May 2010 - 19:00

Yea, but Henrietta seemed to have been able to explain it more clearly though, even going as far as demonstrating what she believed in. Doesn't this bare credence that they have a similiar thinking pattern?

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 10 May 2010 - 19:18

@Kalshion wrote:Yea, but Henrietta seemed to have been able to explain it more clearly though, even going as far as demonstrating what she believed in. Doesn't this bare credence that they have a similiar thinking pattern?

I'm sure Yu used Henrietta as a proxy to explain why Elsa shot Lauro. But for Henrietta, the trigger to cause her to commit murder-suicide would be Jose not loving her like she loved him. And since he dotes on her, she feels loved so she doesn't harbor such thoughts.

The anime did follow that track, but then also put forward the idea that Lauro joined only for money (to pay off debts owed to other people, in fact, which should be a huge red flag as it makes him susceptible to blackmail and treason) and that he did more then just generally ignore Elsa, but emotionally abused her.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 10 May 2010 - 19:49

@Kiskaloo wrote:The anime did follow that track, but then also put forward the idea that Lauro joined only for money (to pay off debts owed to other people, in fact, which should be a huge red flag as it makes him susceptible to blackmail and treason) and that he did more then just generally ignore Elsa, but emotionally abused her.
Where was the bolded part mentioned again...?

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 10 May 2010 - 19:51

@Nachtsider wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:The anime did follow that track, but then also put forward the idea that Lauro joined only for money (to pay off debts owed to other people, in fact, which should be a huge red flag as it makes him susceptible to blackmail and treason) and that he did more then just generally ignore Elsa, but emotionally abused her.
Where was the bolded part mentioned again...?

When he and Jose are having a drink in the bar.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 10 May 2010 - 19:55

Ah, okay. It wasn't mentioned in my copy, but that reason's as good as any, I guess.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Wed 12 May 2010 - 6:44

@ElfenMagix wrote: 1) First Rabello roughed up Henrietta in trying to get the gun away from her face.
2) Jose tried to stop Rabello to stop him from man-handling his cyborg. Jose lost and was then instead being man-handled by Rabello.
3) It was a steel bench Henrietta tried to use on Rabello. Most gun ranges wont have tables to work on outside of the small thing in your firing lane, but they do have steel benches for ppl to sit and wait their turn or instruct/score the shooter.

Most importantly, 4) The events weren't erased from Clease' memory, but she was reprogrammed to never attack another handler again. Jose protested against Henrietta getting the same treatment, was spared the reprogramming.

One of the most interesting exchanges involving this incident happened when Claes got out of the hospital & came looking for Raballo (this dialogue only occured in the anime). Claes tells Raballo that Henrietta (whom she recently "fought") came to visit her and told her a rumor that Raballo was quitting the Agency.

Raballo asks "Oh, so you and Henrietta made up?"
To which Claes replies "What?"

This could imply that;
A) her mind has already been wiped, and she genuinely has no recollection of the incident.
or
B) (The more interesting option in my opinion) She did not consider it a feud with Henrietta at all...they were both just doing what came naturally and 5 minutes later they might just as well be having tea & cake together with no hard feelings.

The second possiblity would certainly contribute to Raballo's earlier comment "I can't figure out a way to help them distinguish between friend & foe..."

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 12 May 2010 - 21:44

Quitting? I remember that it was he was leaving and that he would return. Which is why Claes patiently awaited for his return when Jean came in and told her he was dead.

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Re: Intelligence?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Wed 12 May 2010 - 22:42

@ElfenMagix wrote:Quitting? I remember that it was he was leaving and that he would return. Which is why Claes patiently awaited for his return when Jean came in and told her he was dead.

The rumor that Henrietta told Claes was that he was quitting. Raballo cleared that up for her before presenting Claes with his key and her old eyeglasses.

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