Pain tolerence and illness?

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Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Kalshion on Wed 26 May 2010 - 5:03

Been awhile since I've posted, though I've been around from time to time, real life bite's

Anyway, was curious about a few things in relation to the cyborgs. We know they feel pain, as we've seen them react to it, though on a weakened basis.

That said, does their pain tolerence depend on their conditioning 'level'? Or is there another factor. Likewise, does Cyborgs actually get 'sick' in a sense that they get headaches or can fall ill? I namely ask due to a small scene in Vol 1, page 82, middle right - below where Triela appears to be in some pain.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 26 May 2010 - 10:10

I would imagine it's part of the conditioning medication. It's also possible that they have suppressed the pain centers.

Triela does experience her period (that scene you are referencing) and when she didn't take her conditioning medication in Naples when she ran away from Hilshire, it had deleterious effects.

As to whether they can actually get sick or not, neither the manga nor the anime have covered that, though there is a great fan story called Beatrice Gets a Cold.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Triela Hilshire on Wed 26 May 2010 - 11:18

Hmm, sounds like an interesting fanfic, is it here or elsewhere?


As for what happened to Triela in Naples I think it might have been a combination of forgetting to take the medication and fatigue, after all it was late and she did kick some ass earlier. And probably deflecting the knife with her shotgun caused a surge of adrenaline when she flash backed to her duel with Pino. That would take a bit out of someone.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Wed 26 May 2010 - 12:07

@Kalshion wrote: does Cyborgs actually get 'sick' in a sense that they get headaches or can fall ill?
During her interview with Dr. Bianchi at the beginning of chapter 10 (Pasta Prince 1) Henrietta is asked if she is experiencing any fevers or nauseousness. That implies to me that cyborgs do fall ill, although it could also be interpreted as a side effect of imperfect conditioning drugs.



As far as pain tolerance; I suspect that has a lot to do with a cyborg's "adrenaline" level. When she's bursting through a door, spraying the room with fragmentation rounds a girl could probably take multiple hits without flinching...but during quiet time back in the dorm that same cyborg might howl at a needle-prick suffered while sewing her torn blouse.

In chapter 1 'Etta gets hit in the shoulder, then is admonished by Giuse for losing control...therefore she experiences the worst of both worlds; pain, plus a depressed mood that interferes with her ability to block it out.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Kalshion on Wed 26 May 2010 - 15:13

So they can get sick; it's just if they did it'd be a sign that something went wrong with the conditioning process. I guess this also explains why, so far in both seasons of the anime, I've yet to see any of the cyborgs get sick.

Hmmm....

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by boomer_gonz on Wed 26 May 2010 - 16:36

I think the doctors questions may be in reference to an infection or some such instead of some kind of illness.

The lack of such would indicate that the cybernetics are having no issues and that the 'borgs haven't become resistant to immuno-suppressive drugs within the conditioning medicine...yet.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 26 May 2010 - 17:50

@Kalshion wrote:Been awhile since I've posted, though I've been around from time to time, real life bite's

Anyway, was curious about a few things in relation to the cyborgs. We know they feel pain, as we've seen them react to it, though on a weakened basis.

That said, does their pain tolerence depend on their conditioning 'level'? Or is there another factor. Likewise, does Cyborgs actually get 'sick' in a sense that they get headaches or can fall ill? I namely ask due to a small scene in Vol 1, page 82, middle right - below where Triela appears to be in some pain.
I would argee with Kisk on this... but...
When it comes to damage to their cyborg implants, the pain is sudden but fades away very quickly- as Henrietta describes in the anime and manga in the Eslea story plot. This has to do with partly the conditioning medication, and the implant shutting down to keep from further damage or even blood loss.

But when it comes to natural pain, like Triela's menstral cycle, there is little what the conditioning medication can do. This is here the biological stem of their cyborg bodies require medical care, just like the rest of us.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Kalshion on Wed 26 May 2010 - 19:27

Biological?

But if i'm understanding the process properly, how can it be biological if most of their internal organs have been replaced?

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 26 May 2010 - 19:41

@Kalshion wrote:Biological?

But if i'm understanding the process properly, how can it be biological if most of their internal organs have been replaced?
Key word is MOST...
Much of the skeleton and muscles were replaced. But from the looks of it in V5, when the medic took a sonogram of Claes' heart, it looks like a biological one there. Not mechanical valves, no flexing diaphragms (as in a Jarvik 7+), etc...

Also many biolological systems can not be replaced due to their size as an artificial construct. A lung machine (part of the heart/lung bypass) is about the size of a Smart Car! Plus the brain and much of the nerves are intact, and they need preprocessed foods to operate, and seeing that the girls do eat regular food means that they have a normal digestive tract. Having an artificial system would be as big as a large room as well as a dialysis machine to go with it- they do seem to go the bathroom normally. Plus hormonal interactions being at place, some of their girls still have their girly parts in place. Even Henrietta, in having her uterus remove may still have her ovaries intact so she can feel pretty and as normal as any other girl because they produce Estrogen...

So this throws out the "most of the organs being replaced" myth, as it would not be possible, and still have a tiny unit that the girls are. If you did, and were able to miniaturize such technologies, you would have the equivalent of Olga as Robo-Cob!


Last edited by ElfenMagix on Wed 26 May 2010 - 19:46; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 26 May 2010 - 19:44

Except the manga says Petra's organs are artificial and that this is not unique to the Second Generation.

GSG is predicated, after all, on a level of biotechnology well beyond what is in the real world.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 26 May 2010 - 19:54

Petra is not a typical cyborg.

Having such technologies is mechanically its not possible. Just having Osmosis and diffusion to break down complex sugars in the stomach and sent them up to the brain takes a large level of surface area. The brain only operates on pure glucose, and in breaking down fatty acids and comples carbohydrates into simple sugar requires a lot of lab work and equipment not yet possible. In that, somethings are not possible, despite what Yu says.

Furthermore, why keep Triela's reproductive system intact? So she could have her period? Seriously. Cyborgs are a mesh of humanity and mechanics, not the replacement of one over the other.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Wed 26 May 2010 - 19:58

@ElfenMagix wrote:
@Kalshion wrote:Biological?

But if i'm understanding the process properly, how can it be biological if most of their internal organs have been replaced?
Key word is MOST...
Much of the skeleton and muscles were replaced. But from the looks of it in V5, when the medic took a sonogram of Claes' heart, it looks like a biological one there. Not mechanical valves, no flexing diaphragms (as in a Jarvik 7+), etc..
Yet Dr. Bergonzi does specifically talk about using data from Claes' case at the artificial heart conference. I think that implies that she has a mechanical ticker. It makes sense...if you want a cyborg with above average speed & endurance, upgrade her respiratory & circulatory systems.
So this throws out the "most of the organs being replaced" myth, as it would not be possible, and still have a tiny unit that the girls are.
The story is on at least some level science fiction...I think a certain suspention of disbelief is called for. I tend to believe most of the organs are artificial. Triela has kept her biological uterus because there is no point in engineering a mechanical one.

Cyborgs are a mesh of humanity and mechanics, not the replacement of one over the other.
One of the main cornerstones of the story. Again Yu has been vague about a lot of the specifics so as not to paint himself into a corner.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 26 May 2010 - 20:03

There is no point in keeping it either... unless you want that cyborg to get pregnant and have babies; as the interplay of Estrogen and Progesterone in females requiring working ovaries as well as a working uterus. A woman who loses both her ovaries and is not on hormone replacement therapies will not have a period.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 26 May 2010 - 20:07

@ElfenMagix wrote:Having such technologies is mechanically its not possible..

With our current level of biotechnology.

But since GSG is fiction, it is not bound by real world restrictions and therefore it's perfectly plausible if the story so requires it.

As to Triela's reproductive system, who is to say she can get pregnant? In my OC universe, all the girls are sterile. They keep their reproductive systems to obviate the need for hormone therapy.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Wed 26 May 2010 - 20:18

@ElfenMagix wrote:There is no point in keeping it either...
Agreed; Triela's uterus & periods exist purely as a character device...to demonstrate that being a cyborg is not all super-strength & hyper senses, they have it tough in many respects too. Triela is not only in her first year of menses, and therefore subject to wildly inconsistent cycles, she's stuck there, frozen in time for her entire cyborg life.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 26 May 2010 - 21:29

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:Having such technologies is mechanically its not possible..

With our current level of biotechnology.

But since GSG is fiction, it is not bound by real world restrictions and therefore it's perfectly plausible if the story so requires it.

As to Triela's reproductive system, who is to say she can get pregnant? In my OC universe, all the girls are sterile. They keep their reproductive systems to obviate the need for hormone therapy.
Just being the devil's advocate- why would they need hormone regulation if they are 1) cyborgs and 2) sterile?

As Kaku stated in my old adv. physics class, "Science Fiction must apply advanced technologies and make it look like magic to lesser technology civilizations. In this, the advance technology civilizations must be able to explain how their technology works. If they do or can not, the author is pulling it out of his ass."

If the cyborgs are so medically advanced, 1- why waste such technologies on hunting bad guys knowing that such technologies would get destroyed in doing the job? 2- if they are so advanced, then why isn't their other technologies so backwards? If cyborgs are being used, why use guns? In these questions, Yu fails. Even in the Terminator and Robo-cop series the technologies used match the rest of the technologies in their stories. Yu fails in this. But again, this is his story and not mine. I'm just a fanfic write of his genre...

In that I would agree more with Professor Voodoo than with Kiskaloo.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 26 May 2010 - 23:03

@Professor Voodoo wrote:Yet Dr. Bergonzi does specifically talk about using data from Claes' case at the artificial heart conference. I think that implies that she has a mechanical ticker. It makes sense...if you want a cyborg with above average speed & endurance, upgrade her respiratory & circulatory systems.
Look at the next page, where Dr. Bergonzi continues with "Your limbs, the medicine... Its all a big help." ... "A lot of my data is from the hard work of former agency men." ... "You and the agency have given my research life."

Though he is scanning her, he does not mention that she has an artificial heart, only that he is going to a conference about them, and using her case of her artificial limbs and the medicine used.

If they were truly cybernetic, they would not need medication. Finally, if the girls were truly cyborgs- the hole that Beatrice was given in V11, and the other two cyborgs Silvia and Chaira explosion ordeal- these three would still survive because there would be back up systems keeping them alive.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Cifu on Fri 28 May 2010 - 14:35

Sorry, if i'm shout from the sideline, but some personal toughs:

-It's not clear how many of the girl's body remain human, i read the guesses of the above, but personaly i belive there is two main possibility exits:

1.: The whole body is artifical, just the brain and perhaps the spinal chord remain of the original person. So something similar like in the Ghost in the Shell. Some line are point toward this, like several damage illustration, and the note above Angie's bed (ch 50, "Her body has nothing, right?" and "their lifespan equal s that of the brain").
2.: The "shell" (skeleton, musculars, skins, eyes, etc.) artifical, but the inner organs remains, or exchanged some artificaly created, yet biological organs.

The second one answer the illnes problem easy, because there is still many living organs inside of the body.

But the problem is not that easy. The brain itself only get nerv impulses, right? So, what is the difference between an (for example) wrongfully send artifical nerv impulse, and a real impulse toward the brain? Nothing. So the brain easly can be confused if the artifical body send not properly right impulses, and thats can cause dizzynes, nausseous, etc. feelings.

-The pain tolerance can be easly answered now: if the body not send pain impulses, then the brain simply not feel pain. But the pain itself not a wrong thing, if you wont feel pain when touch a hot surface, you burn your hand badly. So it's an easly answer if the pain siglans strength are limited somehow, so they can feel the pain, but only a limited amount, wich is not degrade any action performing.

@ElfenMagix wrote:If the
cyborgs are so medically advanced, 1- why waste such technologies on
hunting bad guys knowing that such technologies would get destroyed in
doing the job?.

The girl's are serve as prototypes for artifical limbs and organs, and the developing methods are time- and money consuming. So for using them as fighting dolls means the medical team get a silent pass-by from the goverment about the illegal human experiment, in exchange the goverment pay the checks, get several excellent and expendable assasin, and a technology, wich became mature, can be change the world greatly. It's a situation where (almost) everyone win.

I think this is very plausible background.

@ElfenMagix wrote:2- if they are so advanced, then why isn't their other technologies so
backwards? If cyborgs are being used, why use guns? In these questions,
Yu fails.

Firstly, you can avoid the suspicious tracks, with an rare and secret weapon, you left damages, like no other weapons. But if you use an everyday weapon, no one get's raising unwanted questions. Even if you posses extraordinary weapons, you won't wanna use them in crowded, popular regions, where the tracks are not can be always fully covered.

Secondly, the imagined cyborg bodys are not surpass greatly the current technology, and in the GsG world, they are currently under development. The cyborg body's are not as everyday's tool's as most cyber-world. In the examples: the fist Robocop movie (and the early comics) are not show a greatly advanced world, just the (personally very disliked) third movie...
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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 28 May 2010 - 14:49

@ElfenMagix wrote:Just being the devil's advocate- why would they need hormone regulation if they are 1) cyborgs and 2) sterile?

Well estrogen is not solely for procreation in a woman's body.

If the cyborgs are so medically advanced, 1- why waste such technologies on hunting bad guys knowing that such technologies would get destroyed in doing the job?

Because the girls won't be destroyed. Against handguns and long arms, they're effectively invulnerable.

If they are so advanced, then why isn't their other technologies so backwards?

The manga states that Italy chose to devote their resources to become the most advanced biomedical country on Earth.

If cyborgs are being used, why use guns?

Why not use them? Ranged weapons offer many advantages over melee weapons.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Robert Frazer on Fri 28 May 2010 - 15:34

Because the girls won't be destroyed. Against handguns and long arms, they're effectively invulnerable.

Also, the girls are a research project in and of themselves - through their experiences, mental conditioning and physical augmetics will be developed until it can be more applicable to wider society. It doesn't matter even if a piece of equipment is destroyed - it's all good data!

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Fri 28 May 2010 - 16:04

@ElfenMagix wrote: If cyborgs are being used, why use guns?
Which direction are you going with this? I thought your question implied laser pistols...Kisk refers to "melee weapons" like swords & knives I guess.

Contemporary, recognizable hardware is one of the appeals of GsG. There are already plenty of manga's out there with laser or sword wielding lolis. The use of realistic modern items provides a gritty, down to earth foundation to a story that includes a touch of science fiction.
Obviously it's not a failure for Yu...look at how many hours are spent discussing guns on this site alone. People like the contemporary touches.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
At the risk of poking the hornet's nest a little more, this is how I picture the girls' constitution in my fiction;

Brain & nervous system: Almost 100% human...but with a processor that allows the brain to interface with the artificial bits. From an engineer's standpoint this processor is the central element of a cyborg, and its serial number is what Petrushka gives while under hypnosis. Essentially, the processor is the core unit of the cyborg, allowing biological & mechanical to communicate & function together.

Marisa, incidentally, has an -A suffix to her XB11-07 code, since her processor was recycled from the deceased Marina.

Respiratory & Circulatory: Mostly artificial. You need a powerful set of lungs and a stong heart to keep up with the combat demands of these girls. Artificial lungs are especially important to Marisa, for whom oxygen efficiency is critical. She has an extra organ that blood flows through, that when saturated with lithium hydroxide sucks carbon dioxide from her system.

Digestive system: Mostly human, but with modifications to metabolize very poor food. If the girls needed to survive on grass they could do it for a short time.

Skin: Human, so it can heal minor scapes & cuts, but anchored to an artificial matrix to make it tough. Each girl has a "skin farm" of her very own back at the lab, to provide grafts when needed.

Arms-Legs: Artificial. We see Angie with her new legs, but no skin yet, in chapter 47.


These are just my conjectures based on what I've seen in the manga, what seems reasonable if cyborgs really did exist, and simple literary practicality. Nobody have a stroke over them!

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Robert Frazer on Fri 28 May 2010 - 16:12

It all seems reasonable enough. I can agree that an organic brain is pretty much fundamental to the cyborgs and definitely the one organ or tissue that you can't have an artificial replacement for - after all, if we could use silicon instead of neurones, we wouldn't bother with cyborgs in the first place, and just jump straight to war-droids.

Although given the propensity for robots to rise up and seek to rid the world of all fleshkind, perhaps it's best if the Agency stuck with cyborgs for now...

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Fri 28 May 2010 - 16:24

@Robert Frazer wrote:Although given the propensity for robots to rise up and seek to rid the world of all fleshkind, perhaps it's best if the Agency stuck with cyborgs for now...
Along those lines; it was a wise move by the Agency to ensure that its super-powered killer cyborg could still be sent to bed early without dessert if her behavior was deemed unacceptable (such as attempting to rid the world of all fleshkind).


I doubt that would be a viable option with MechaGodzilla.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 28 May 2010 - 16:36

I like your concepts, PV. I also like the "A" prefix (Kara is XB11-02 as she was the second Gen 2 after Petra in my OC universe).

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 28 May 2010 - 23:08

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:Just being the devil's advocate- why would they need hormone regulation if they are 1) cyborgs and 2) sterile?

Well estrogen is not solely for procreation in a woman's body.
Actually, the only couple of other things the female body uses Estrogen besides reproduction and ovary function is for the metabolism of Calcium and Phosphorus in the maintenance of Bone- without it, or low levels of it, it leads to Osteoporosis. Since the cyborgs bones are made from Carbon Fiber- its not required here.

The second is the neutralization of Testosterone created by the Adrenal Gland in the production of Adrenaline. Since most of you are speculating that such organs have been replaced with something synthetic, this is not required either. So- where is Estrogen required in a cyborg?

@Professor Voodoo wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote: If cyborgs are being used, why use guns?
Which direction are you going with this? I thought your question implied laser pistols...Kisk refers to "melee weapons" like swords & knives I guess.

Contemporary, recognizable hardware is one of the appeals of GsG. There are already plenty of manga's out there with laser or sword wielding lolis. The use of realistic modern items provides a gritty, down to earth foundation to a story that includes a touch of science fiction.
Obviously it's not a failure for Yu...look at how many hours are spent discussing guns on this site alone. People like the contemporary touches.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Much of your bottom half is too much like my Cyborg Wiki Entries for the type 0 - type 3 cyborgs. Though I agree, this is not my point of argument. What is... is this- knowing how government operates, such a cyborg program would be too expensive to operate and would have been slashed from the budget a long time ago. There are better ways to deal with Padania than with little girls armed with guns. Furthermore, is the med-techs are going to conferences to show off data of this technology- then how secretive is this program really is?

Also as expensive as they are to make, and tough they seen to be by demonstration of Angie saving Marco from the truck bomb, cremating her also seems to be a waste. especially she was rebuilt from her damage.

@Kiskaloo wrote:I like your concepts, PV. I also like the "A" prefix (Kara is XB11-02 as she was the second Gen 2 after Petra in my OC universe).
Considering that there are several Second Generation Cyborgs before Kara- she should be at least XB11-12... But thats your story, not mine.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 29 May 2010 - 3:19

@ElfenMagix wrote:But from the looks of it in V5, when the medic took a sonogram of Claes' heart, it looks like a biological one there. Not mechanical valves, no flexing diaphragms (as in a Jarvik 7+), etc...
I’m glad someone brought that up. In the anime her heart is human, not artificial. In the manga however, it’s inconclusive.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 29 May 2010 - 11:07

@Danjo3 wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:But from the looks of it in V5, when the medic took a sonogram of Claes' heart, it looks like a biological one there. Not mechanical valves, no flexing diaphragms (as in a Jarvik 7+), etc...
I’m glad someone brought that up. In the anime her heart is human, not artificial. In the manga however, it’s inconclusive.
In the sake of the Manga, nor were there mechanical fittings, over lapping tissue areas or stitches that would show up in a sonogram that would say 'this heart was replaced with something else.'

Another thing to consider is if you dare to remove a brain out from its skull casing, it dies. More over, the pressures of fingers holding the organ will kill those areas immediately. Thusly, the girls to cyborg process is not taking the brain of the girl and putting it into another body, but its taking out what one can from the body and replacing it with cybernetics. Arms, legs, ribs, pelvis, spinal column- those are easy to replace. Skin, with a ballistic protection under layer is also doable. Some of the organs could also be replaced- but not all of them. You have top figure that at best- in a chilled room of around 48F degrees, you have less then 48 hours to do such an operation. Even with Robotics assisting in the operation, this is not quite possible. Despite what Yu says and does in GsG, though its science fiction- he fails in its explanation and does too much handwavium to solve his problems with the story.

Lets consider the following:
An artificial kidney is about the size of a large fanny pack. A Jarvik 7 (8, 9 and 10) requires an external air pumping mechanism to drive the heart thats the size of a small computer desk with PC included for it needs that much power and pressure to drive blood about the body. The living body (human and animal) is able to create its own electrical fields in order to sustain itself and run. Even miniaturized, such artificial organs will require an external (or I dare say - internally placed) power supply because what is left of the body is not enough to power them. We dont see the girls plugging into an outlet and recharging batteries in their sleep! We also dont see handlers swapping out battery packs from their bodies either! Thus such organs in the body are required to give the rest of it the energy it needs to run itself and the attached cybernetics. Most of all, the liver- the most complex organ in the body who one of its many roles is to remove potential toxins one may have encountered while eating food, has not been reproducible in the lab- only 1 or 2 of its many functions, not all. Though man has made great strides in medicine- even in Sci Fi- the one thing he has not done is to create a living cell with a working Mitochondria to create energy with.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Awinnell on Sat 29 May 2010 - 12:04

but the Heart is just a hollow muscle with valves,they have artificial muscles on the girls and artificial heart valves are commonly used today so they could do it if they wanted,of course this is all conjecture as only Yu Aida knows whats going on in his world

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 29 May 2010 - 12:12

I dont think he does, as he constantly writes one thing in the story and in a future volume does something else to either change it or correct it. If he did not do that, then I would accept this as GsG Lore.

I (like many of you fans out there) love the story, but I believe that he messes up too much with the technology end of it.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by funkmachine on Sat 29 May 2010 - 18:18

pain tolerence being linked to there conditioning level makes a lot of sense look at Phencyclidine and other drugs.
the effects of the conditioning drugs,brain washing and psychological may well let them ignore wounds for a few minutes.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 29 May 2010 - 21:33

Henrietta said to Elenora "I get shot but the pain quickly goes away..." this suggest that the conditioning drug is kicking in with some sort of an activator. Here a healthy set of Adrenal Glands would come into play, and Adrenaline kicking, since it does have a pain inhibitor, along with its partner hormones Melatonin/Serotonin, the interaction these 3 in a spike condition (sudden pain like getting shot) could trigger a conditioning medication response.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 30 May 2010 - 13:06

Going back on 'How to build a cyborg', It seems that Angie (at least to me) was built piece by piece, as evident by the pics of her past and construction. It is evident that her exposed arms and legs were to have been put in to her body once connection to her nervous system was established. Then the internal pieces were placed, 1 system at a time to test if they did work in her as the first prototype. Once all the pieces were put in, she was a cyborg.

In the Manga on a few occasions showed the cyborgs getting injected with the condictioning medication, showing that the circulatory system is still intact.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 30 May 2010 - 15:11

The cyborgs bleed when shot or stabbed, so they at least have capillaries in the skin along with the aorta and venae cavae for the brain.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 31 May 2010 - 10:35

@Kiskaloo wrote:The cyborgs bleed when shot or stabbed, so they at least have capillaries in the skin along with the aorta and venae cavae for the brain.
Venea Cavea? That the vein that comes from the lower body to the heart. For the brain, its the Carotid and Juglar veins and arteries that go to/from the skull and brain from the neck.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 31 May 2010 - 11:04

Well if you want to get specific, the inferior vena cava returns blood from the lower half of body into the heart while the superior vena cava does the same for the upper half.

Anyway, it's clear that the cyborgs have a circulatory system.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 31 May 2010 - 11:06

@Kiskaloo wrote:Anyway, it's clear that the cyborgs have a circulatory system.
That is true. It probably the one point that all can agree on.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Ghostfriendly on Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 17:38

But do they have blood? A synthetic fast-clotting, fast-oxygen-transfering blood substitute might be very useful.

Illness would be interesting. Cybernetic implants means supressing some elements of the girls' immune systems, which would've been a fair explanation for their lives being shortened. Even if they don't have much organic tissue left to get bitten, the SWA would have to monitor them for illness carefully.
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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 18:02

@Ghostfriendly wrote:But do they have blood? A synthetic fast-clotting, fast-oxygen-transfering blood substitute might be very useful.

When shot, stabbed, or bombed, they spurt / leak a red substance. Whether it's blood or some artificial fluid, I cannot say as neither the manga nor the anime have enlightened us.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 19:48

@Ghostfriendly wrote:But do they have blood? A synthetic fast-clotting, fast-oxygen-transfering blood substitute might be very useful.
I don't think Yu has ever gone into any detail about it, so anything we come up with is just conjecture.

That said, I wrote an episode that dealt with heavy blood loss to an OC, and here's what I came up with:
The cyborgs do use artificial blood, which satisfies all the requirements you lay out above, and (importantly) is able to carry chemical energy to fuel the girls' artificial parts. If necessary they can accept a transfusion of human blood to keep them alive, but since it can't carry the fuel for their artificial parts this is only a temporary, emergency measure. Since the cybernetic & biological systems depend on each-other more than a few hours on the human blood will leave a cyborg in serious peril of death.

Any thoughts, additions, angry rants.....?

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 19:53

Kara took a few "through and through" in the gut during one mission, but she was never in danger of bleeding out.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 20:01

@Kiskaloo wrote:Kara took a few "through and through" in the gut during one mission, but she was never in danger of bleeding out.
I read that episode before I wrote mine, but I decided to ratchet the situation up a few notches to a potentially fatal shooting.
As I recall, Kara got it in the stomach so the worst after-effect was that she had to dip into Claes' yoghurt supply for a few days while her gut recovered.
When Marisa got shot it nicked her artificial aorta, so she had blood loss, delirium, kidney failure, diabetic shock, dialysis, and finally, medication withdrawals.

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 20:08

Pretty much. I never liked putting any of the girls in mortal danger. so if Kara is ever going to have her ass handed to her and be looking down a tunnel with a bright light at the end, it will need to be someone else who writes it. Smile

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Re: Pain tolerence and illness?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 27 Jun 2010 - 12:04

Despite their strengths and weaknesses, Fernando still treats his girls as humanly as possible. Thusly, he has them as protected as possible when on missions, despite what the med-techs say about the girls being 'bullet proof', he does not believe it. In her original records that he has found for Francesca, she does not have the internal bullet resistant lining that the other girls have because Frankenstein built her as a restored moppet and not as a killer-cyborg tot. So for her she has a bit more protection. Francesca might be a bit bit faster and lighter than most cyborgs (size for size), but she is also vulnerable.

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