Holy Crap

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Holy Crap

Post by Piero on Sun 4 Jul 2010 - 14:41

I'd recently been thinking of giving one of my OCs (Sabina) a Mini-Uzi to fill a gap in her arsenal (note the Mini-Uzi is not the same gun as the Micro-Uzi that Beatrice uses -the Micro Uzi is even smaller than the Mini). Now, a commonly listed figure for the fire rate of a Mini-Uzi is nine hundred and fifty rounds per minutes, which is pretty damn fast, but not too ridiculous. However Mini Uzis can be set up to fire from either an open or a closed bolt, and apparently the two types don't have the same fire rate.

Now, it should be noted that finding good sources on the fire rate for Mini Uzis is difficult. Even official marketing materials have absolutely massive variations in their claims on rate of fire. But after comparing various sources... it seems that the fire rate of 1700 rounds per minute listed by one official source is probably pretty reflective of the actual rate of fire for closed bolt Mini and Micro Uzis. And considering that the 1100-1300rpm (ammunition dependent) rate of fire on a Glock 18 reportedly makes shooting burst of less than four rounds difficult I have to really wonder about the ammunition consumption on these closed bolt Mini and Micro Uzis. Those things would be exhausting entire magazines in just a few quick bursts.

Kind of makes me wonder if Sabina should be using an open bolt with her Mini-Uzi, even if it would reduce the weapon's accuracy in semi-auto somewhat.

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 4 Jul 2010 - 15:29

Consider that the Vickers, Lewis and Spandau machine guns of WW1 shot at a rate of 750 - 900 rounds per minute, and that is only because they were slowed down so that they would not hit the propeller of the plane they were mounted on. When mounted on tripods for ground assault units, these guns fired at a rate that easily doubled that of what was on the planes.

Accuracy sake, the Micro and Mini Uzis were not made for shooting across a football field, they are CQC weapons and are excellent in that realm of 50ft range or less. Open bolt nor not, the mission determines the weapon to be used, but nothing beats knowing what your weapon can do in the extreme of situations.

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by Piero on Sun 4 Jul 2010 - 15:56

The main reason I'm worried about the Mini-Uzi's semi auto accuracy is that sometimes situations crop up which require very precise shooting at very close range, ie if you have noncombatants or friendlies in close proximity to the target being engaged. Otherwise yeah, closed bolt accuracy versus open bolt accuracy doesn't exactly mean much for a short range bullet hose.

At this point I'm kind of leaning towards the open bolt Mini Uzi for Sabina over the closed bolt one simply because the 1700+ rounds per minute of the closed bolt version would make it hard to effectively police her ammunition consumption. And that's an important consideration when she tends to be concealing the thing in a small messenger bag with a twenty round low profiles magazine loaded. Her spare magazines probably include some larger capacity models, but even those would probably last longer if she was able to shoot bursts of three rounds with the open bolt version rather than five or six with the closed bolt one.

Also, I just realised that it's kind of ironic that Sabina's most common weapons are an Israeli submachine gun and a pistol that's built in the United Arab Emirates. Laughing

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 4 Jul 2010 - 18:40

CQC ranges does not need to worry about accuracy on Spray & Pray shoot'em up tactics. A good gun fighter understands that the gun and the path of the bullet when properly placed in his hand is an extension of his arm; thusly, pointing the arm at the intended target and pulling the trigger, will more times than not hit the target with little effort needed to point and aim the weapon.

@ 1700+ rounds per minute- a 100 round magazine of ammo will only last a few seconds when the trigger is held. One has to out-think their gun from emptying out like this and only press the trigger for a second or so, only allowing a few rounds to escape into firing mode. If soldiers can do this in rl, this would be a piece of cake for a cyborg to do.

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by Piero on Sun 4 Jul 2010 - 20:13

The use of short bursts of two to three rounds is indeed common procedure with automatic weapons, and it's pretty much something I intend for Sabina to use. However most small arms have fire rates well below 1000 rpm (an AK-47 does about six hundred). A Glock 18 machine pistol will do about 1100-1300rpm because of design limitations, and one of its users commented that while he could easily do two to three round bursts with a M16 or MP5, but couldn't do bursts of less than four rounds with a Glock 18. And closed bolt Mini Uzis fire considerably faster than even Glock 18s. Hence my thinking that they'd be spewing about five or six rounds with every trigger pull and burning through magazines like crazy.

It might be worth mentioning here that the main reason closed bolt Uzis exist is because some users like Police wanted submachine guns with better semi automatic accuracy. The original Uzi design was open bolt and due to an ideosyncracy of the original design it's apparently difficult to modify them to reliably fire from a closed bolt without a massive increase in fire rate. Which means those high fire rates are more of a side effect of the design than a design feature.

As for why I made this topic... I guess I was just kind of shocked by how high the fire rate of closed bolt Uzis is. 1700+rpm is pretty much unheard of among small arms; MG-42 machine guns were considered impressive for hitting 1200 rpm.

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by Cifu on Mon 5 Jul 2010 - 6:54

Well, the 1500-1700 RPM are a bit crazy, but the 1200 RPM are not that unprecedenct, the Ingram M11 (polular name MAC-11) and the FAMAE S.A.F. have 1200 RPM, and many submacine-gun make 1100 RPM (like Daewoo K7, Skorpion EVO III., etc.).

The highest nominal fire rate i know is the American-180 in .22ILARCO caliber, with 1500 RPM, and the I.WW italian Villa Perosa M1915 "submachine gun" (actually it's a double barrel light machine gun) have 2400-3000 RPM, 1200-1500 RPM per barrel, tough that's originaly made for aircraft weapon.
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Re: Holy Crap

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 5 Jul 2010 - 11:12

Anyways, a lot of the newer machine guns today- even versions of the old still made today now have a selection for burst mode- where 3 - 5 rounds are shot and then stop. I'm sure the that the Uzi has this feature too. This is with the single shot and fully automatic modes.

But like I'm saying, a cyborg is faster than a human. They should be able to send off rounds to where and when they need it. In V3(?) where Beatrice emptied a clip on a bastard, she did so to loosen the roof/floor around him and have him fall through the roof, as they needed him alive for questioning. If they would have wanted him dead, she would have sent a couple of shots to his back or head and not empty out a clip like she did.

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 5 Jul 2010 - 12:52

A cyborg should by definition have inhuman levels of trigger control.

Even when set to full auto, I assume Kara or Noel can control how many bullets they let fly with each pull of the trigger.

So if you hand them an Uzi on full-auto and tell them to send 2, 12 or 20 rounds down range, I assume they can do it.

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 5 Jul 2010 - 18:56

Custom high-capacity mags. Modifying the gun to reduce the cyclic.

Problem solved.

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by Piero on Tue 6 Jul 2010 - 0:41

Okay, I'd been writing up a whole long of response to a whole lot of points here, but perhaps it's best to just keep it simple.

For purposes of simplicity (and because I don't believe the cyborgs have completely perfect reflexes -just look at how much trouble Triela had with Pino) I think it's best for Sabina to just use the slower firing open bolt Mini-Uzi. Which is actually a pretty fast firing weapon in it's own right (manufacturer claims 950rpm, but apparently it's often found to be more like 1200 in actual practice, though this varies depending on ammunition and the individual gun). With that she should be able to squeeze off relatively short bursts on her own.

That being said I do think Sabina may have had one modification made to her Mini-Uzi, and that would be having the barrel shortened just a little. It makes it just a touch smaller and easier to fit into small bags, and it also gets rid of the compensator ports (which she doesn't have much use for thanks to her cyborg strength). This eliminates the possibility of any flash from the compensator ports disrupting her vision when firing in the dark.

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 6 Jul 2010 - 10:36

The problem with Triela vs Pino is this:

Triela was never taught outside of the basics for hand to hand combat the first time. She does have the speed, power and ability to take out targets hand to hand, but she lacks the imagination to punch hr way out of a paper bag. Thought she was given extra lessons through SISDE, it was only to overcome her deficiency on hand to hand combat. But she has had very little practice with it.

Pino was trained by a former CIA in hand to hand and knife combat. For the CIA alone, he had to have learned martial arts like Karate, Tech Won Do, Judo, etc; and any combination of the above as John Doe saw fit. Along with years of practice, Pino honed his skills to a bleeding razors edge. If he was not a black belt in those terms, he was close to it.

Triela got stupid. She let herself get personal in a mission when all she needed was put two rounds into Pino's pointy head. In confronting him in hand to hand, she may have won the fight but the victory was so costly to her in terms of damage and rebuild, that a loss would have been better for her. In the final moments of the fight, she panicked, reaching out for him and got his neck. Doing so she got lucky and tore out his windpipe. If she would have missed, Pino would have struck her in the other eye and she would have been done for. In short, you do not put a yellow belt to go up against a black belt in actual combat and expect the yellow belt to win.

If Sabina needs to conceal her weapon, wouldn't a Micro Uzi (like the one Beatrice uses) be a better option? As per the modifications you state she has, would be in the Micro Uzi without modifications.

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by Piero on Tue 6 Jul 2010 - 17:19

The original manga version of Triela and Pino's final battle had Triela losing the suppressed pistol she was using at the time right off the bat due to a very precise surprise attack by Pino. One may wonder why Pino didn't just aim for her throat, but I certainly preferred it to the anime version where I was left wondering why Triela didn't blow him away with a blast of buckshot before the duel even started.

Also while I won't deny that Pino has lots more practice and experience than Triela, I wouldn't make light of Triela's supplementary training. The GIS is more or less the Italian counterpart to the British SAS and apparently takes martial arts training very seriously. A few weeks of intense training with them may not put a person on a level with someone who had been practicing at a high level for years, but I suspect it could teach them quite a bit.

Bottom line though is just that even if the opponent was exceptional, that fight showed that a human is capable of fighting hand to hand with a cyborg. Which to me suggests that the physical coordination of the cyborgs is not perfect. Then again, Yu does seem to have been making the cyborgs more superhuman as of late.

As for why Sabina uses a Mini-Uzi rather than a Micro... the big reason is pretty much that I don't want her using the same gun as Beatrice however I can think of several advantages that the Mini Uzi has over the Micro model, one being that it's slightly larger size (about fourteen inchs long as opposed to ten) makes it a better platform ergonomically. Since she only needs the thing to be small enough to fit in a messenger bag the slighty larger size doesn't cause Sabina much of a problem. Plus Micro-Uzis have the closed bolt as standard, Mini-Uzis can be ordered with either, and it's not like a Micro Uzis don't have compensator ports in their barrels as well.

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by funkmachine on Tue 27 Jul 2010 - 15:29

1700RPM is just overkill by the 4th round your bullets are in the roof.

The balancing of power, recoil, size and weight are the main problems even with a pedigree going back to the mauser Schnellfeuer ("Rapid Fire").

maybe a beretta 93r with new selector to add auto.
it is even smaller in size,has a higer RPM 1100,lower weight and the GIS use them.

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by Awinnell on Tue 27 Jul 2010 - 17:22

lets face it no ones going to be using a Uzi for precision fire anyway,they are the archetypal spray and pray weapon,designed to get a lot of rounds in the general direction of your enemy as quickly as possible,mostly used to clear rooms and bunkers of everyone in them ! max range is about 50m which is one of the reasons the IDF phased them out of frontline service in the 80's

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by Piero on Tue 27 Jul 2010 - 19:49

Actually, the original Uzis had a very controllable fire rate of about 600 rounds per minute and are considered effective out to at least about 100 meters. It's the smaller Uzis and the ones that are designed to fire from a closed bolt that have the hyper fast fire rates. An open bolt mini uzi will do about 1200 rpm open bolt and about 1700 to 1800rpm with a closed bolt. A micro-uzi will do the same as a closed bolt mini-uzi, and a closed bolt conversion of a full size uzi can do about 1450 rpm.

Don't ask me why the organisations that go for closed bolt uzis because they want better semi-auto accuracy don't just go for the semi auto only versions.

As for the Beretta Model 93R, I actually do have a character that uses one. Quite an interesting weapon if you want a reasonably practical holster weapon, the ergonomics and burst limiter really ought to help a lot with the controlability issues machine pistols are infamous for. That being said, it's still a machine pistol so it isn't going to have the capabilities of a regular submachine gun.

I've actually thought that the Sites Spectre would in many ways be a very good small submachine gun for Sabina, but I'm leary about it because she's a redhead and that would probably make people think of Petra regardless of how vastly different her personality and character happens to be (though considering that the continuity Sabina is part of deviates from canon back around volume five and doesn't include any second gens, I'm still tempted to go with it).

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Re: Holy Crap

Post by John_234 on Wed 13 Jun 2012 - 18:02

To be honest, if you wanted accuracy in an SMG, you'd probably for something made by H&K. The MP5 is basically what replaced the Uzi for people who used large sub guns as their primary weapons.

As for closed bolt conversion, as far as I'm aware it was supposed to be used on semi-automatic. The Micro Uzi Pistol in 9mm and .45 is a good example. The reason is, high rates of fire in a SMG after a point become absolutely useless. The Micro Uzi has tungsten weights in the bolt to actually make it usable at all - and you can note it isn't even that good at it. Uzis notably use advanced primer ignition in their open bolt operation to reduce recoil. I don't think closed bolt use on fully automatic was ever intended.

We should note there's SMGs much better than the Mini Uzi these days. The Steyr TMP / B&T MP9, the MP7 (if you don't mind low stopping power), Glock 18, Skorp. Then we have a lot of these newer machine pistol / PDW concepts. My favorite is the PP-2000 - Video.

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