Type-3 specializations (melee)

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Type-3 specializations (melee)

Post by Plaxy on Fri 24 Sep 2010 - 12:05

Was curious about Type-3 specialization roles, I get Sniper, heavy artillery, small artillery, but what about Melee. Does a melee Cyborg have a place in Section-2? What upgrades and faults would they have. I do think they probably somewhat be like Pinocchio (he clearly liked Knives more than guns). I imagine Upgrades would focus on Agility more than strength for speed and placement And possibly Eye upgrades would be more about (Frames Per second) faster eyesight rather than higher definition and far sight. Kind of like High-Speed Camera over a HD Camera.

I was thinking of Building an OC that prefered up and personal. What would his role be? His preferred Weapon allotment? What drawbacks would he have?

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Re: Type-3 specializations (melee)

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 24 Sep 2010 - 12:54

As Padania and the PRF become more familiar with the cyborgs, they will adjust their tactics and defenses to adapt to the threat. Dante's men all wear body armor, for example.

While she is not a Type 3, my Nol was a sniper because as the Agency's enemy adapted, it became easier for the Agency to go at them "from a distance".

So a cyborg trained in melee combat and able to penetrate close enough to defeat body armor or bypass it (by targeting other parts of the body) could very well be the next "offense" the SWA deploys to counteract their enemy's latest "defense".

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Re: Type-3 specializations (melee)

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 24 Sep 2010 - 16:19

Plaxy wrote:Was curious about Type-3 specialization roles, I get Sniper, heavy artillery, small artillery, but what about Melee. Does a melee Cyborg have a place in Section-2? What upgrades and faults would they have. I do think they probably somewhat be like Pinocchio (he clearly liked Knives more than guns). I imagine Upgrades would focus on Agility more than strength for speed and placement And possibly Eye upgrades would be more about (Frames Per second) faster eyesight rather than higher definition and far sight. Kind of like High-Speed Camera over a HD Camera.

I was thinking of Building an OC that prefered up and personal. What would his role be? His preferred Weapon allotment? What drawbacks would he have?
Wrong...
Type 3s are specifically build for a very specific role, like Voodoo's Marisa. As far as the Wiki is concerned, there are 3 Type 3s cyborgs, including Marisa though not including Marina.

As for sniping, small artillery, melee- these are handled by training, programming and conditioning. Rico snipes and Triela melee since V1 and they are First Generation Cyborgs. The cyborgs are faster and strong then a regular grown adult by several times (Beatrice carrying a several hundred pound war head in V11(?) ). It is they are not trained enough to properly use their enhanced abilities and are only trained on a conventional sense of battle. They already have strength, speed and agility. All they need is PROPER training. What else do you want?

Upgrade of the eyes? With a faster frame rate? Are you joking? Seriously. Even if you can connect a digital eye to a living brain, the brain is still operating at a rate of 30 - 75 hertz or in the case of the eyes- frames per second. To have the brain see faster is not possible, and is a limit of human capability. You could have bionic eyes that zoom in on a target, or magnify a tiny circuit board, but nothing more. You already have this in the generation type 1s and generation type 2s.

The type 3 are very specific in their mission operendi. Here is their definition. What you are speaking off, is just a regular Type 1 or Type 2 Cyborg with specific Training in a specialized field.

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Re: Type-3 specializations (melee)

Post by Professor Voodoo on Fri 24 Sep 2010 - 17:18

ElfenMagix wrote:
Plaxy wrote:Was curious about Type-3 specialization roles,
Wrong...
Type 3s are specifically build for a very specific role, like Voodoo's Marisa. As far as the Wiki is concerned, there are 3 Type 3s cyborgs, including Marisa though not including Marina.
Since Yu has never introduced the idea of a third type I define Marisa and her unfortunate sister as simply Type-2 cyborgs with enhancements (and subsequent trade-off's) for their particular tasking. Since many of Marina's parts were recycled to build Marisa it is unlikely that they'd be of different generations.

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Re: Type-3 specializations (melee)

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 24 Sep 2010 - 17:31

Plaxy wrote:I was thinking of Building an OC that prefered up and personal. What would his role be? His preferred Weapon allotment? What drawbacks would he have?
What your cyborg is and does is of your choosing of creation. But you should jump in to the Gunslinger Girl OC Wiki to see what is there and what is created and why. Definition of terms should be studied and limitations of abilities to be defined within you ability to create an OC.

For Cyborgs, not only read the individual cyborgs themselves, there is also the cyborg types.

For Handlers, they also have their own list, as does villains, and other characters. Canon Characters have their own place as well...

I'm just saying this as GsG is a very rigid world as far as such terms are defined, and we discuss these definitions to death both here and on the wiki. One could create their own story and have their characters as Ex Dues Machina devices and circumvent everything to make a win-win for their OCs. But the rest of the world would not like it except for close friends and stoners who have nothing to do but read trash and say "Whoa!!!!" Thusly, choose your words carefully when you say your cyborg is.... and can.... because....


Last edited by ElfenMagix on Fri 24 Sep 2010 - 17:40; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Type-3 specializations (melee)

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 24 Sep 2010 - 17:39

Professor Voodoo wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:
Plaxy wrote:Was curious about Type-3 specialization roles,
Wrong...
Type 3s are specifically build for a very specific role, like Voodoo's Marisa. As far as the Wiki is concerned, there are 3 Type 3s cyborgs, including Marisa though not including Marina.
Since Yu has never introduced the idea of a third type I define Marisa and her unfortunate sister as simply Type-2 cyborgs with enhancements (and subsequent trade-off's) for their particular tasking. Since many of Marina's parts were recycled to build Marisa it is unlikely that they'd be of different generations.
Though I agree with your definition of M&M, Westnile created the 3rd Gen definition years ago which we agreed on a long time ago as to how they should be. The same with Colonel Marksman's 4th Gen. Your M&M by definition or coincidence fits in the 3rd Gen series, but I would not change the wiki's entry's against an author's writings. But I used them here to cite an example of how specific 3rd Gen Cyborgs are.

My mistake in the statement is using Marisa as one and not Marina though they are more or less the same construct, because Marisa is alive and Marina is dead. For this I apologize.

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Re: Type-3 specializations (melee)

Post by Professor Voodoo on Sat 25 Sep 2010 - 0:27

Sorry if I seemed defensive about my characters Elfen...it was not my intent.

I have tried to adhere to the somewhat strained rules of canon in this respect. Since Yu has not created a third generation such a thing does not exist in my "universe." Individual writers are free to bend whatever rules they see fit, as has certainly been demonstrated time and time again in this forum!

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Re: Type-3 specializations (melee)

Post by Plaxy on Sat 25 Sep 2010 - 2:33

Thanks for the reply although none really answered my questions ElfenFox sort of did in his first reply witch some I'll reply too.

Triela: while stronger than her cyborg mates in Melee is no specialist in Melee she still adaquetly performs in a well rounded manner and her specialization in melee is also definantly not that high considering both her fights against Pinocchio first just straight out owned and second basically a tie she lived cause she's a cyborg in that case.

Also I think your quite underestimating at the speed of the brain each single neuron connection has been tested to move at about 200 Hertz about 6 times faster than the synaptic Nerves send signals to the brain from the eye, suggest somewhere around 30hertz. The human brain gets its full processing potential from having about the equivelent of 100 million processors. Of course most of these are used for bodily fuctions and sensory intake/output and thought process.

With that said, moving on to speeding up sight I could believe with bio-cybernetics someone could double up the synaptic nerves from the eye to the brain and have them fire in succession Effectively doubling visual data with the brain still capable of processing it. Now this wouldn't be the be all or end all of awesomeness mind you I can certainly see some drawbacks to this 2 forms one is time the retina's have to absorb light or half the retinas each synaptic senser. First would obviously be low-light issues, yah she would see faster, but would have reletively near sighteness and need a wider iris to absorb more light at one time. The second would effectively half the information imput meaning she would see more movement but at lower rez (although the brain is quite good at ad-hocking it, a unique charistic of imputing its own data possibly from memory when some is missing)

with that said Now back to the cyborg this is what I'm concluding Her faster sight allows better reading of motion in combat she would thus have more info to act on to retaliate in melee. but due too faster vision reads more movement but less detail she is considered nearsighted and has terrible range Meaning sniping is out of the question and basic gun accuracy is compromised. So she overall with new body she slightly less strong than a first gen, But has a lot more agility than first gens and reactionary reflexes to make up for lack of raw strength.

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Re: Type-3 specializations (melee)

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 25 Sep 2010 - 13:27

ElfenFox? Anyways...

There are some constants to be aware of:
The speed of electricity through a wire is 1/2c or 1/2 the speed of light, which is about 93,000/miles per second. Nerve impulses through a biological nerve is anywhere between 1 to 360ft/sec, though I constantly hear 70ft/sec to be the average in human beings; it actually depends on where the signal starts and its path through the network until it reaches the main conduit to the brain. So lets figure an average of 70ft/sec as a standard.

The brain like you said, is millions of processors operating at once, giving the power it has even though it runs at a low frequency. I'm reading sources of it being anywhere between 10 and 45HZ, and I remember my pre-med studies saying that its about 30Hz in most people. There are faster regions of brain, and very fast frequencies have been recorded internally to the brain but these very fast recordings of 80hz - 250hz were recorded while the patient is having a seizure. Frequencies between 40hz and 80hz have been measured in the primitive parts of the brain, "The Animal Brain" structures that we humans rarely use but are still there, and are structured in the same way as birds, lizards, and amphibians. Also Optimum Sensory Information Transfers happens at about 14HZ for both Hearing and Seeing, and 10 for most of the other senses. Learning (actual sitting down and seeing and listening to take in information) happens at about 12HZ - 14Hz. One thing I can say, the smaller the brain, the faster it operates. Thus children are better suited in thinking and sensing than adults are but only by a tiny frequency number. But it is a big difference between 12HZ (as it might be in an adult) and 15HZ (as it might be in a child); we seen this to be true in PCs during the '386 days- where the 12MHz '386 was terribly slower than the 15MHz '386. There was very noticeable differences between the 2 cpus even though the frequency difference was very small.

Now, lets start putting cybernetics into the body. With electronic pulses flying around at 1/2c, when the signal hits the brain, the brain will try to act/react to the stimulus it gets, but with its slower speed, the signal will start to cascade as the cybernetics continues to resend stimuli while waiting for a slower response action from the brain. In us, we dont see this because our bodies and brains are balanced with stimuli/response actions. Sure, you can adjust for this in programming in main systems. But for eyesight and hearing, its much harder. If you have cybernetic eyes constantly sending images to the brain, you are going to start to tire out neurons, if not burn them out. The visual system in humans at best can see about 20 - 40 frames per second. between the frames both the retinas and the visual cortex resets itself for the next incoming image. Sending an image into the visual cortex during its reset time will at be ignored or worse, start a seizure within the cyborg's brain. As medical documents have shown that flashing bright lights into a human's eyes in a very fast rate will cause seizures in the subject. You dont want your cyborg to start having seizures in the middle of a chase or worse in a fight. Then there the 'white out condition' that I have not even touched in here. I'm sure that both Boomer and Natchsider, the forum's two medical professionals, can back these statements up.

I'll give you this much of a heads up secret. Within the primitive part of the 'Animal brain' with humans lies its own visual cortex. It is very small, and does not do shapes, colours or details well, but it does sense motion extremely well. Its part of our flight/fight response and if one properly train themselves, they can use this part of the brain to their advantage. Many sports figures talk about 'being in the zone', well, this is the part of the brain they have learned how to use. Baseball players can track the motion of the ball, bat and other players with it, football players can track the football and other players with it, race car drivers can sense the track and other cars traveling over 200MPH with it. But its limitations are it does not sense shapes, colors or details. It can give the rest of the brain an idea of WAKE UP AND PAY ATTENTION TO WHATS GOING ON! The other problem is in order to use it, your cyborg must be in the Zone. So you'll have a momentarily spaced out 'borg while she goes out and basically kicks ass. The problem with this is if while in the Zone, everything around your cyborg stops and becomes motionless, it can not sense those things that might be a threat around her. Also, perception for her during this time will be a blank; targets to to her and attack her, cyborg zones out, and when the cyborg reenters reality, the targets will dead on the floor with cyborg thinking "I did all that?" with a big smile on her face. Though many people can actually sense what is happening during in the 'Zone', very few can control their actions to adjust them accordingly. This is where constant training comes in, though I could bet that conditioning/programming can give a start for a cyborg, it still needs practice to hone and perfect these skills.


Last edited by ElfenMagix on Sat 25 Sep 2010 - 13:34; edited 4 times in total

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Re: Type-3 specializations (melee)

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 25 Sep 2010 - 13:28

I think the girls, especially the Generation 1, approach melee combat more like Greco-Roman Wrestling - just grapple your opponent and use your superior strength and weight to overpower your opponent. I don't see a great deal of finesse in their approach to hand-to-hand combat.

I think this is why Triela got her ass handed to her by Pino. Pino fought using tactics similar to jujutsu, using Triela's power against her and then getting in his own strikes as she attempted to recover. Major Sales trained her in jujutsu-style moves and when they met again, they were much more evenly matched in style and at that point it became a war of attrition, which Triela was going to win thanks to her greater stamina.

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Re: Type-3 specializations (melee)

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 25 Sep 2010 - 13:50

Kiskaloo wrote:I think the girls, especially the Generation 1, approach melee combat more like Greco-Roman Wrestling - just grapple your opponent and use your superior strength and weight to overpower your opponent. I don't see a great deal of finesse in their approach to hand-to-hand combat.

I think this is why Triela got her ass handed to her by Pino. Pino fought using tactics similar to jujutsu, using Triela's power against her and then getting in his own strikes as she attempted to recover. Major Sales trained her in jujutsu-style moves and when they met again, they were much more evenly matched in style and at that point it became a war of attrition, which Triela was going to win thanks to her greater stamina.
This point I will have to agree with. But we must remember that Pino has years to hone his fighting skills to the point where he outclasses everyone in speed and strength, and Triela, despite having a cyborg body, has only weeks of training. Though Triela was given the super strength and speed, Pino was about to out think her because he in his training is at a point where he does not have to think to fight but just does. This is the most important point in all martial arts- go in, strike hard, strike fast and dont even think about it. This is how you can get people to do these things....

7 kicks in 1 second.


50 punches in 7 seconds (though there is a 100 punches in 10 seconds out there, this video was better in quality.)


Now, if Pino is at this point in his training, how is Triela able to complete even with her cyborg advantages? Its a miracle she won at all.

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