Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Sat 2 Apr 2011 - 16:32

Kiskaloo wrote:
schaschanist wrote:(Claes is) absolutely useless for such a mission and more a threat for herself and the whole team than for Dante's Army. It's hard but i think that is the brutal truth and reality.

I'm pretty much in agreement, at least for the moment. By allowing Claes to continue to retain her (suppressed) memories of her last conversation with Raballo, she appears to effectively be unable to take a life. And just having her take off her glasses isn't going to change that.
There are ways Claes could fit into the outcome that don't involve combat...perhaps she will have something to do with that mysterious key Hillshire gave Roberta. Personally I'd love to see a major character catharsis from her but who knows?

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by Awinnell on Sat 2 Apr 2011 - 18:16

Claes makes a brave dash in to rescue one of the other girls,only to find herself in Butch and sundance moment

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by Officer_Charon on Sat 2 Apr 2011 - 19:16

I was picturing more "The Jerk"

Claes: Stay away from the cans! They HATE the cans!

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 2 Apr 2011 - 21:25

schaschanist wrote:Another vision is that they kill all of Dante's men and get Dante before he can flee. The Croce brothers will beat the shit out of Dante to finally get their revenge and Jean kills Dante at the end. Now all have their Peace, and this will be the end of the Series.
Killing Dante will not end the series, only satisfy Jean's Blood Lust.

Padania still reign with the remains of the 5 elders and Christiano-the-lose-canon rolling about.

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 3 Apr 2011 - 4:53

schaschanist wrote:She's absolutely useless for such a mission and more a threat for herself and the whole team than for Dante's Army. It's hard but i think that is the brutal truth and reality.
I think Jean is well aware of that fact. It also seems that he has some genuine feeling for her, so I seriously doubt he would send her to almost certain death. Not to mention how it would affect the performances of the other girls, especially her BFF Triela.

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Sun 3 Apr 2011 - 6:22

Officer Charon wrote:Claes: Stay away from the cans! They HATE the cans!
Henrietta: (softly singing to herself) Oh, I'm picking out a thermos for Giuse. Not an ordinary thermos for Giuse...
Danjo3 wrote:
schaschanist wrote:She's absolutely useless for such a mission and more a threat for herself and the whole team than for Dante's Army. It's hard but i think that is the brutal truth and reality.
I think Jean is well aware of that fact. It also seems that he has some genuine feeling for her, so I seriously doubt he would send her to almost certain death. Not to mention how it would affect the performances of the other girls, especially her BFF Triela.
I've conjectured before that Jean's apparent soft spot for Claes stems from his old friendship with Raballo. He feels a degree of guilt over killing him so compensates by showing kindness to the only piece of him that's left.
His unspoken thought in Chapter 77 seems to detract from that theory a bit...

...but I dare say it still holds up.

Alternate reason for Jean's attitude toward Claes; he is only hard on Rico and the other cyborgs because they have a hard, dangerous job to do. Claes has no such combat commitment so there's no reason to be harsh with her.

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 4 Apr 2011 - 6:26

Professor Voodoo wrote:
Iíve always been really confused about this statement. Jean did the exact same to Rico. Where does he get off saying that? Is there maybe something else going on?

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by ChaosKin640 on Mon 4 Apr 2011 - 7:02

I think common consensus is that Jean is referring to Claes' promise to Raballo to "be good", thus preventing her from being able to partake in standard combat missions. From previous chapters and statments made by some of the other girls, namely Triela, each of the cyborgs draw a large portion of their own self-worth from their ability to complete missions and kill people for their handlers and the agency. It's their purpose for existing. Raballo has effectively stolen that purpose from Claes, making her something of an outsider among the other cyborgs. Whether she consciously feels that way or is seen as such by the other girls doesn't seem to matter, at least in Jean's mind. All of her friends are marching off to war, they may not survive, and all she can do is stand around and watch. And I think Jean resents Raballo for that fact.

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by theprodigalson on Mon 4 Apr 2011 - 13:12

ChaosKin640 wrote:From previous chapters and statments made by some of the other girls, namely Triela, each of the cyborgs draw a large portion of their own self-worth from their ability to complete missions and kill people for their handlers and the agency. It's their purpose for existing.

Agreed. He resents Raballo for taking away her purpose. As deplorable a purpose as it may have been, it's still better than the void of obscurity.

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 4 Apr 2011 - 15:05

Again, what about what Jean did to Rico? Where does he get off passing judgment on anyone.

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by Professor Voodoo on Mon 4 Apr 2011 - 16:23

Danjo3 wrote:Again, what about what Jean did to Rico? Where does he get off passing judgment on anyone.
Again; not quite sure what exactly you're getting at.

Do you mean the very act of making her into a killer cyborg? If so then everyone in the Agency shares a part of that guilt.

Willfully withholding familial affection such as the other girls enjoy?

Allowing her to keep her memories so she has a conscious idea of what normal life is supposed to be (even if she never got to experience it herself)?

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 4 Apr 2011 - 16:31

Jean believes that Cleas is useless because of Rabello's 're-programming' of Cleas to be nice. Big whoopdie do, I say. Jean's missed the point. Claes beat the crap out of Petrushka's ass when Petra took her classes. Then there was this big thing where Claes was questioned and then sent to a mission with GLASSES ON!

Of course Claes failed in that one.

If Claes was told to to give up the glasses for the mission, Claes would have been the killer she was in V1/V2 (dragging a couple of dead thugs from the subway).

The med-techs and Jean can go Psychoanalyze Claes all they want and they will not get anywhere with her. They dont understand what Rabello did to her or why. And they never will. Claes is as good as any of them if not better because she thinks, as Rabello trained her to do. She does not fly off the handle, she does not disobeys orders within reason, she is a perfect soldier as per Rabello's training.

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 4 Apr 2011 - 16:42

I disagree that the glasses are the only thing holding Claes back from being a killer and I think she just surprised Petrushka, but we've had that debate already.

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 4 Apr 2011 - 20:42

Professor Voodoo wrote:Do you mean the very act of making her into a killer cyborg? If so then everyone in the Agency shares a part of that guilt.
Bingo! I couldnít of said it better my self.

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by tremec6speed on Tue 5 Apr 2011 - 1:09

If I may put my five cents into the subjects of Jean's statement towards Raballo and the Dante/Joker comparison, I think perhaps Mr. Aida is making a comparison between the could-care-less attitude of Dante as a killer per se and Jean's obsession with revenge: They are both consuming and degenerate yourself as a person. Rather than try to understand why Raballo would do this to the cyborg, he only sees an investment wasted. Dante is consumed by his wanton lust for blood, it's like he gets a high of the carnage.
There maybe some superficial similarities with the Joker, but I think the latter would find SWA's nemesis a bit classless. The Joker makes it a point to kill in his own unique twisted way or he won't do it at all. Killing alone is beneath him unless he can make the person/s in question suffer to his satisfaction first.
I can imagine the Joker pleasuring himself by taking the trouble to find out as much as possible about his mechanical adversaries in order to use it against them before finishing them off. He revels in psychological destruction perhaps more than the act of murder.


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Dante: "I opened the book of mankind's history. People have always fought and killed, many times without real reason. Violence is the way of the world. I am simply playing along."
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Joker: "FEAR! Fear is what moves people. Politics is built on it . . .! And I am fear! "Vote for me or I'll kill you" is not just great marketing -- it's the God's honest truth, and everyone knows it. My face guarantees it."..."You know what it's like to walk into a room and have men catch their breaths. Well, I get that from everyone. Darkness . . . solitude . . . stealth . . . makes your heart speed up . . . makes you sweat. It's like sex, and I'm its master. It's better than sex because I'm always in the mood. I LOVE murder! I love the look in their eyes -- looking only at me. In those moments, I am what I was meant to be -- The Cosmic Joke! The one No One Understands!"
Dante enjoys what he does and justifies it.
Joker is.. well he's wacky. Muh-m-muhahahaha!
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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by Odon on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 5:08

I assumed at the time this was refering to how Raballo 'abandoned' her (by turning traitor and forcing Jean to kill him, thus leaving Claes alone). But given the context the other explanation seems to make more sense.

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Re: Will Triela called Hilshire as Father?

Post by Odon on Fri 15 Apr 2011 - 0:14

Jean relaxing in a herbal bath. Too late the shagged-out Field Commander opens his eyes to see Killer Claes raising a huge book above her head. Her de-spectacled eyes flash with anger.

"I remember everything, Jean! Everything! YOU KILLED MY HANDLER!"

"But Claes, I did it for love!" he wants to cry, but it's too late. 'War and Peace' knocks the gun from his hand. 'Lolita' hits him right in the testicles. Then the coup de grace...

The next day Pietro and Elenora are looking down at Jean's corpse.

"I was right. Section Two does have a very hard dictionary."


Next week: Kill Claes, Part One.

Rico pulls up outside Claes' library in a pedal-powered yellow Tonka truck with the words: 'Pussy Wagon' on the back.

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