The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

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The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Pinakbet on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 14:43

That these "broken" girls are given a second chance at life....but at the expense of them being expendable, super-human assassins under the guise of a cute, little, adolescent girl. In other words a complete mindfuck to most people in society. Would it be ethical if this happened in real life where the Secret Service would "condition" similar cute, adolescent girls into at least in theory, heartless, cold-blooded killers equipped with cybernetic implants who superhuman abilities despite the fact that conditioning will severely reduce their lifespan? Quid pro quo they call it but would you feel that it is justified or no?
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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by hydra282 on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 15:05

I guess so, they were going to die anyway.
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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 15:12

Justified? No.
No government, agency, company, corporation, group or individual has the right to take the life and the rights of a child and bend it to their will.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 15:25

The ends do not always justify the means, so in "real-life" such a course of action would not be seen as moral, regardless of the threat.

Fictionally, the government is trying to save the Italian Republic from breaking up so "any means necessary" is justifiable in the eyes of the people of at least Section Two, but then they all are in their own ways "broken" as well, so they may be more comfortable making morally ambiguous decisions.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 16:37

I guarantee you, people would raise less of a stink if the subjects were not kids.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Pinakbet on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 18:18

@Kiskaloo wrote:The ends do not always justify the means, so in "real-life" such a course of action would not be seen as moral, regardless of the threat.

Fictionally, the government is trying to save the Italian Republic from breaking up so "any means necessary" is justifiable in the eyes of the people of at least Section Two, but then they all are in their own ways "broken" as well, so they may be more comfortable making morally ambiguous decisions.

Well you have to factor in that the SWA did give them a place to live, three meals a day, an education,I mean I can understand from what you guys are saying it still however is immoral. But if they weren't taken by the SWA what would have happened then? Hilshire finds a way to save Triela sans via SWA and would adopt her as his own? Would Rico still be a "vegetable" in the hospital? Would Henrietta gone mad after those vile scum killed her family and sexually assualted her? Personally I'd think Henrietta would swore to herself a Vendetta against those guys but that's just my honest opinion.
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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 18:18

@Nachtsider wrote:I guarantee you, people would raise less of a stink if the subjects were not kids.
Funny you would say that, because when I wrote SWA Beginings: Francesca, the first set of cyborgs were Adult Units from Section 1. Between the conditioing drug used (not for programmed response but for working with their prosthetics, and thus feeling numb and getting no pain) and the superstrength the (crude) cybernetics gave, these cyborg thought themselves to be immortal... Thus they literally self destructed doing some pretty lame shit...

An example was Cyborg Agent Minnelli chasing a terrorist suspect into the Roman Subway. When the suspect went in the train, Agent Minnelli thought with his super strength he could jump in front of the train to stop it. He did... at the cost of his life. The suspect was caught but at the cost of 1 agent, several train cars, part of the train station and many civilians hurt. This was the first case of cyborgs thinking that they can out do physics. As such, Section 1 did away with their Cyborg Program, and Section two picked it up.

BTW- Volunteers for the section 1 program were amputees from the Persian Gulf War and the Iraqi War. Since they were adults, there was no stink about using them as such, which was pretty much hidden from view anyways. According to the press, "these were just men doing their job for their country."

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Pinakbet on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 18:22

Well you have to factor in that the SWA did give them a place to live, three meals a day, an education,I mean I can understand from what you guys are saying it still however is immoral. But if they weren't taken by the SWA what would have happened then? Hilshire finds a way to save Triela sans via SWA and would adopt her as his own? Would Rico still be a "vegetable" in the hospital? Would Henrietta gone mad after those vile scum killed her family and sexually assualted her while her family there lifeless surrounded by their own blood? Personally I'd think Henrietta would swore to herself a Vendetta against those guys but that's just my honest opinion.
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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 18:41

Child soldiers in Africa are given food, clothing and shelter, yet most of the world does not consider this to be a "good thing" for them...

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 18:57

@Kiskaloo wrote:Child soldiers in Africa are given food, clothing and shelter, yet most of the world does not consider this to be a "good thing" for them...
You beat me to it, Kisk. Very Happy

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 19:09

@Pinakbet wrote:...Personally I'd think Henrietta would swore to herself a Vendetta against those guys but that's just my honest opinion.
Working with children, their parents and all that involved for as long as I did... you need to rethink this.

Henrietta came from a well-to-do family that could support itself and her many siblings. Most European and American Girls are little princesses who are not interested in getting revenge but in how to make daddy happy to give them what they want. They tend to be self-centered and too self-absorbed within themselves. For something to happen to them, like what happened to Henrietta, they self destruct because they believe that life (and its associated pains there after) is not worth living anymore and fall into this "Why Me?" syndrome. Vengeance? They would not how to go beyond the "Why Me?" Syndrome to consider vengeance as an option. Revenge? They are too angered unto themselves to push out of that self-hatred that "Why Me?" brings to consider going after those who did the crime to them.

For the middle-class girl, this is not possible, nor is it an option.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 19:13

@Pinakbet wrote:But if they weren't taken by the SWA what would have happened then?
They would've died in peace, without any blood or sin on their hands. It's doubtful if Angie, Etta, Rico or Triela would've lived very much longer without SWA intervention.

Okay, perhaps 'in peace' may be a bit of an exaggeration. But their suffering would at least come to an end. Being brought back from the brink of death only to be turned into a brainwashed weapon of war isn't much of a shining new beginning. If anything, it would only be a prolongation of prior torment.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Pinakbet on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 19:23

@Nachtsider wrote:I guarantee you, people would raise less of a stink if the subjects were not kids.


I'm assuming from your train of thought, the elderly would also cause people to be an uproar. Hmmm oh how about hamsters like hamtaro and oxnard and penelope *uck you* (Really it sounds like Penelope from hamtaro is saying FU but without the F 0_o)




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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 19:25

wat

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 19:27

@Pinakbet wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:I guarantee you, people would raise less of a stink if the subjects were not kids.


I'm assuming from your train of thought, the elderly would also cause people to be an uproar. Hmmm oh how about hamsters like hamtaro and oxnard and penelope *uck you* (Really it sounds like Penelope from hamtaro is saying FU but without the F 0_o)
There is a difference between willfully volunteering for the cause and being dragged into its maw. The girls were dragged in in such a weaken state where they could have died from their injuries, but were saved to do the government's bidding. They have become nothing short of slaves and put through endangered servitude where their health and well being is based on how much they can do for the government. In killing targets for the government, they pay a high price.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Pinakbet on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 19:31

@Nachtsider wrote:I guarantee you, people would raise less of a stink if the subjects were not kids.




I'm saying that if kids would be highly unethical then using someone's grandparents to do the government's dirty work would also be immoral. Because the kids minds are still developing while the brains of the elderly are deteriorating.
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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 19:36

I was thinking more along the lines of adults in the prime of life when I said that. But yeah, using the elderly would be just as immoral. The 'wat' was directed towards your hamsters thing.

Let me tell you this, though. The image of an eighty-year-old cyborg kicking ass is absolutely hilarious.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 19:48

Insert plug for a great series of books on using old folks as soldiers - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man%27s_War.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 20:01

An interesting series Kisk. Good

@Pinakbet wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:I guarantee you, people would raise less of a stink if the subjects were not kids.

I'm saying that if kids would be highly unethical then using someone's grandparents to do the government's dirty work would also be immoral. Because the kids minds are still developing while the brains of the elderly are deteriorating.
No. This is not the point I'm stating. Whether it be kids, grandparents or anything in between, it is forcing them to do such actions that is wrong. If one volunteers for service (that is not a child), then it is acceptable.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by FearTheLASERFACE on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 20:41

"A Man chooses, a Slave obeys."
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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by crazyidiot78 on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 20:56

Well said Fear
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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Pinakbet on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 21:21

@ElfenMagix wrote:An interesting series Kisk. Good

@Pinakbet wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:I guarantee you, people would raise less of a stink if the subjects were not kids.

I'm saying that if kids would be highly unethical then using someone's grandparents to do the government's dirty work would also be immoral. Because the kids minds are still developing while the brains of the elderly are deteriorating.
No. This is not the point I'm stating. Whether it be kids, grandparents or anything in between, it is forcing them to do such actions that is wrong. If one volunteers for service (that is not a child), then it is acceptable.


one of my friends said this (which I believe would be much appropriate to this discussion) as a response to what I posted on facebook a while back about morals and such:

Lol, it all depends if one believes in absolute truth; an objective right or wrong. One can make the argument that morals are simply products of socialization...<<< agree or disagree?


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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by FearTheLASERFACE on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 22:03

As a response to that Facebook post: Well, some moral positions do not vary easily.
Let's put it this way: If everyone lied, it would defeat the point of lying. So, even a lying parasite would not want people lying to him, if only because then there would be no one to parasitize.

The Golden Rule is the most well-known example of a rule not naturally set to move easily.
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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 24 Nov 2010 - 22:41

@Pinakbet wrote:one of my friends said this (which I believe would be much appropriate to this discussion) as a response to what I posted on facebook a while back about morals and such:

Lol, it all depends if one believes in absolute truth; an objective right or wrong. One can make the argument that morals are simply products of socialization...<<< agree or disagree?
That can be taken apart into disposable units. What is the absolute truth is different things to different peoples. No one wants to hear that a real absolute is if it came from a source other than their beliefs. The only absolute truth there is "We are here." Now what are we going to do about that? Most would not believe in that and some would even declare holy war on others because of it. But this is not why we are here for.

Like "The Absolute Truth", morality is also something people do not agree on. My morals are not your morals. What I believe is right for me can be very wrong for you. Is it a product of socialization? No. It has been around since before we stood up right and held a rock in our paws to kill for food or defense. It is there in the most least populated parts of the world and the most densely populated area. Society is a product of those who share a same (or similar) morality. Simple proof- Jihad Extremist travel from around the world to share a cave with their Jihadist brothers. They moral views only agrees with one of their kind and not with anyone else, so they go cluster about to make preparations for their Jihad. Until then, they sit in caves sharing what they have in common- their morality and their views on how the world should be.

Some people form morality on their own, many others learn it. Some learn one version of it and later abandon it for something else they have heard. Plain and simple, Morality is something someone uses to make the world easy for themselves to accept and use.

The SWA takes their morality in part from the government declaring war on the Padania and RF political parties. They will use deadly force as they feel because these groups and others have taken the first move to use deadly force in their actions of terrorism. It has become "Kill them before they kill us." in Yu's world in Italy. As such, the SWA has taken measures as a secret agency to take what ever actions to find, identify and arrest or exterminate those in those terrorist organizations. Some of those measures has taken in the form of using children; turning them into cyborgs, and having them in investigative and extermination mission. Now, is this right? By their morality, it is. By ours? It might not be though some might agree to it.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by overkill13 on Thu 25 Nov 2010 - 21:27

Who's morality are we considering here? To a civilian this is slavery, abuse, or worse, however look at the girls. They don't suggest that what they are doing is morally incorrect. Henrietta even took tallies of her kills and used them to try to justify not being taken off active duty.

Slaves may obey, but even they don't want to do the things their masters ask or force them to do. To the girls what they do is perfectly normal and arguably thier way to contribute to society. Many people look for the meaning of life. These girls have a purpose already. Triela even spent a period of time with a normal girl and while she commented that she knows nothing about pop culture, she doesn't seem to have gone out and changed that fact.

As was mentioned by ElfenMagix, everyone's morals are different. To these girls, their lives are moral. Claes says she is content, Rico loves her body, Triela, Henrietta and Angelica want(ed) to please their handlers. They are doing exactly what they want. To them the situation is moral.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 1:56

Then again, their minds have been altered. So, an element of coercion is present.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Officer_Charon on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 2:54

How can one determine if something is moral, from the subject's standpoint, if there is the mental control element to consider. These girls are conditioned to a) believe that what they do is what they WANT to do and b) to object to instructions is to invite a physical punishment.

After enough electric shocks, the rat stops trying to get the food pellet. After enough times arguing, anyone would begin to associate discontent with punishment, thus believing discontent to be WRONG. It's how parents have educated their children for millenia - "Don't do that, or you'll be sorry." The reason why it's used is because it WORKS, and if applied consistently in ANY situation, it will have a decided effect on someone's mental state. After a sufficient amount of time, you can reprogram a mind this way.

tl;dr, the fact that the girls seem to be CHOOSING their actions does not make them moral. An outside element has been proven to be acting on their decision-making.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by overkill13 on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 10:51

So then it only becomes immoral if the parent/teacher in any given situation teaches the child something that we or society considers immoral.

If a parent raised their child and never taught them that something was wrong then that child would never consider that act wrong. Someone could just as easily teach a child from the beginning that killing was ok and they would not be adverse to doing it. Look at Pinocchio.

There are outside elements acting on every decision we make. Everything I choose to do is rationalized by everything that has happend to me in the past and the present situation. I don't think that anything I do is particularily immoral and the things that I may do that fall in a grey area, I wind up having some level of adverse feelings about it.

The girls don't have adverse feelings about what they do. Their morality may have been imposed on them by the SWA, but mine was imposed on me by my parents, so what's the difference? The past experiences that the girls have to draw on are limited to when their minds were wiped, except Rico, who is heavily influenced by her paraplegic condition, but in the end, they would all have been dead without the SWA.

The girls choose to do everything they do, no different than you and I. The only immorality is in our minds, not thiers. The only choice they didn't make was to be taken in by the SWA, however they were all minors and that decision would have been up to the parents anyway.


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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 11:45

The difference is that your parents didn't dope you up on conditioning drugs. You were therefore still free to disagree with whatever they fed you - I'm sure you did at some point or other, and I'm also sure that the way you run your life is shaped to a certain extent by opinions and views that are yours and yours alone, which are not in complete agreement with your parents' or any other person's, if at all.

You honestly think your average SWA kid would be capable of saying 'no' to their handler? Take the conditioning out of the equation, and I'm sure there would be at least some among the cyborg ranks who would object to the way they're being used.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 13:59

@overkill13 wrote:The girls choose to do everything they do, no different than you and I. The only immorality is in our minds, not thiers. The only choice they didn't make was to be taken in by the SWA, however they were all minors and that decision would have been up to the parents anyway.
No.
You forgot that it is immoral to force the child to do something even when they maybe OK with it. As an adult, let alone teacher/nurturer/parent, is it fine to take that child and have sex with it? In most cultures of the world, it is not. Same thing with killing, stealing, lying, etc.

The girls do not choose anything in their lives. The handlers tell them where to go and what to do. In the dorm, they are limited in what they can do: eat, sleep, study, hang out with other cyborgs. Very few reads books (Yu only shown Claes to do so independently). Even the clothes they wear, what they wear is based on what their handlers say. As it looks like, the girls only have a minimal set of clothing, as when they all go out on missions, they all wear the same thing. A handler, can walk into a cyborg's room without question. The girls could be buck naked in the middle of changing their clothes and if a handler walks in on them, they would be fine with it. The girls choose to do everything they do, no different than you and I? I think not. Their conditioning medication AND their programmed responses makes them incapable of thinking for themselves though they can think independently, but this feature is only for missions.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by overkill13 on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 18:28

All the girls think independantly, whether on missions or not. Claes has no handler and so always acts independantly. The only time she really listens to the staff is when she has "work" obligations. Henrietta snuck into Jose's room and opened his gift, I hardly think Jose suggested she do that. Beatrice spent what appeared to be the better part of a day gardening with Claes. In fact, I'd argue that they have less independance when they are on missions, which is no different than you or I when we work.

Jobs have uniforms and there is no indication that the handlers force the girls to wear anything they don't want to. Hillshire was going to take Triela shopping for clothes but instead bought a bear, which she asked for. I could also argue the lack of clothing is because Yu didn't want to have to draw any more clothes. Similarily, most anime/manga keep to a few, if not single, clothing options for the characters in order for the viewer/reader to easily recognize them. Their weapons are supplied by the handlers, but their is no indication of who chose them other than Hillshire replacing Triela's pistol. He suggested changing her shotgun, but she declined. None of this is any worse than a military or police organization issuing a standard set of equipment, actually quite a bit less strict.

No handler, other than Alessandro, has walked in on thier cyborg naked. They all knock and show common courtesy. Petra also seemed none too pleased about Alessandro checking her out. She was hardly accepting of the intrusion.

Their conditioning is the only thing keeping them alive, or in the case of Rico, fully functional. Their programmed responses are hardly different than a trained soldier, and they choose what they are going to do. Henrietta even lost it in order to defend Jose. They didn't force her to change, Bianchi asked her, rather politely, to control her emotions. Bianchi was even keen to have Jose and Marco watch the "therapy" sessions so that they can learn and better take care of their cyborgs.

I'm not going to suggest that, in real life, we take children and turn them into soldiers. It's being done, the children hate it, they are scarred for life and it's horrible. I'm not even saying that the creation of these girls is morally correct. I'm simply making a point to the girls' point of view. They are all happy, cared for, fed housed and most importantly, not dead. Are they better off dead? I can see the obvious argument for yes, but I'm inclined to say no.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 20:05

The same can be said of the children of Mogadishu. Drugged up and told to fight until they are dead, the children had free reign of their area. They were told to behave for their parents but to also kill the enemy when they come. Outside of fighting, they lived what one would seem to be as a normal life. It was not, it is a life of being a conditioned warrior.

The cyborgs, as you may think, do not live such a free life. In V2, CH6, P30, Jean did not knock on the door before he walked into Claes/Triela's room to inform Claes that Rabello was dead. In V4, CH18, p20-21, Jean interrupts Claes' Piano playing and gives her orders to comply; again, he knocks on no door and allows himself in. In V6, CH31, P130, Dr. Guliani allowed Allessandro into Petra's Medical ward. It appears to have no door nor did they knocked. In CH32, P151, Sandro allows himself into the room without knocking, although this appears to be his SWA Dorm Room, so why should he knock. P161 shows 'Sandro and Petra leave the compound, thus denoting the room they were in was 'Sandro's Dorm Room. In V9, CH46, P59, Marco requests to see Angie who is in a coma. The Medics know not to get between a handler and his cyborg, and thus Marco's presence in Angie's ward wakes her up. in CH48, the med-tech learns the hard way not to get between a handler and his cyborg. She calls the guards, but they dont do anything. They learned a long time ago not to get in between a handler and its cyborg. This is why they did nothing against Henrietta entering Jose Dorm Room in V4. With a handler present, a cyborg can go anywhere one is on her own and the guards will not stop them for that reason. That is why Claes was allowed to enter the firing range in V5 because Jose and Henrietta was there. In V10, CH51, P14, Hillshire walks into the shared hotel bedroom they had without knocking. Seeing Triela sleeping, he covers her up.

So, this guff about handlers knocking on doors is a farce and shows that they are the controlling element of the cyborgs. It is also they who give the cyborgs their medications when they dont give it to themselves.

The girls may seem that they have free reign, but they dont. They can not leave the compound to lets say, get Chinese food. A lot of fanfiction gives this ability to the cyborgs, but it never happens in canon. Face it, they girls are drugged up to follow orders and they operate within the limited realm of their world. From this, they can not operate independently, they can not think independently. They do as they see they must do to make their handlers, and the agency, happy. There is no free will thinking here from all this.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Pinakbet on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 20:48

But didn't Elsa somehow over-ride her conditioning to kill Lauro and herself? Isn't that free will? Elsa devised that plan all by herself, how appropriate and ironic as well to kill Lauro and herself where Lauro named her. Did her conditioning alone make up her mind to commit the homicide-suicide? Her true emotions had to play a critical part when she made that decision.
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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 21:04

I think that merely shows that the conditioning is fallible. When it does not completely work, free will can shine through.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 21:29

@Pinakbet wrote:But didn't Elsa somehow over-ride her conditioning to kill Lauro and herself? Isn't that free will? Elsa devised that plan all by herself, how appropriate and ironic as well to kill Lauro and herself where Lauro named her. Did her conditioning alone make up her mind to commit the homicide-suicide? Her true emotions had to play a critical part when she made that decision.
Elsa did not over-ride her conditioning.
It was not free will.
Depending on whether you read the manga or seen the anime, it comes down Henrietta's clues. Despite the level of conditioning, it does have its limits.

Everything the cyborgs do, outside of the dorm, they require a handler's permission.

Consider this: Conditioning says to the cyborg- 1) Protect thy self, 2) Protect your handler at all costs, and 3) You are nothing without your handler.

Elsa requested some time with her handler. (given in the anime)
Lauro basically told Elsa off, hurting her feelings (given in the anime)

Why did Elsa killed Luaro? He (Luaro) broke Elsa's conditioning rule 1) Protect thy self.

Why did she kill herself? She failed in rule 2) Protect your handler at all costs and fell into rule 3) You are nothing without your handler. Since she is now 'nothing' she exterminates herself. To her it was not a matter of suicide, but righting a conditioning wrong. In killing herself, she fulfilled rule 3 in becoming 'nothing'

No Free Will was in play here.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Pinakbet on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 21:43

He (Luaro) broke Elsa's conditioning rule 1) Protect thy self.


^^can you clarify on this? I'll go read the manga again, I might of skipped some parts on the assumption V1-2 were basically the same from the anime but you are telling me otherwise. In the anime, from what I can remember Elsa got jealous and dumb-founded when Jose was giving her on the job training in my perspective, in a coddling way while Lauro was yelling obscenities at Elsa and then Lauro pushes her aside so he (or was it Jose) decided to take the shot. My memory is hazy but that's what I can recall.
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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 21:49

The anime episodes dealing with Elsa and Lauro were created by the animation staff and were not written by Yu Aida.

In the manga, all it was said was that Elsa somehow had an "error" (to quote Doctor Belesario) and she killed Lauro followed by taking her own life.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 21:54

@Kiskaloo wrote:In the manga, all it was said was that Elsa somehow had an "error" (to quote Doctor Belesario) and she killed Lauro followed by taking her own life.
Which isn't inconsistent with what we saw in the anime.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 21:58

It is in the anime where one can see what happens. It is what Henrietta says in both the anime and manga where you can piece it together.

I was just stated what the cyborg rules are by observation of their actions. They protect themselves, they protect their handlers, and they are nothing without them. This can be pointed out in the first 2 volumes of the manga and season 1 of the anime.

As Kisk says, it was an error in conditioning that forced her to kill Lauro.

Either way, it was not of free will that she did this.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by hydra282 on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 22:18

To Elfen's less previous post. Why would they have to knock whenever they go into a girl's room? If they do happen to walk in on a girl changing, they aren't going to say "Ooh, I like". As for Henrietta going to Jose's room; If they were worried about what she was going to do in there, they would have just told her to get out. They're adults, she would listen. The guards let Marco see Angelica because he's like her dad, not because handlers can just get away with stuff.

The way you say those 3 cyborg laws are being broken don't make sense. "Protect thy self" even for a brainwashed girl doesn't mean "protect thy feelings" Henrietta can feel jealous of women talking to Jose, but she doesn't kill them. How do you think she broke rule 2? Rule 3 should be "you are only tools for the agency"
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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 23:52

Hydra, Conditioning comes on many levels and has many rules.

Think of the Rules of Robotics:
Isaac Asimov wrote:The Three Laws of Robotics are as follows:
1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

As I see it... Consider the similar rules applied to cyborgs with some modifications:

Last rule (A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.) becomes the first rule. Since there is no first or second rule before it, it becomes: "1) Protect thy self."

The first rule of Robotics ( A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.) gets changed to: "2) Protect your handler at all costs." Since the first rule is to protect thy self, this puts Handlers on a lower rung of protection with cyborgs themselves first and handlers second. Since humans can be either agency members or criminals, their value is diminished to null in order for them to complete their termination tasks.

The last law does not come any of the robotics laws, and the second law of Robotcs (A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.) gets pushed down to either the 4th or 5th rules for the cyborgs. Thusly the 4th or 5th rules says "a cyborg must obey any orders given to it by its handler (or the agency, in Second gens). But in order to fulfill rules one (Protect thy self) and two (Protect your handler at all costs), rule three becomes "You are nothing without your handler."

The logical flaws in this is placing the Cyborg's life before the Handlers (later revisions would fix this by simply switching them around in order). In Elsa the following (I proposed) happened:

We all know that in the anime, Elsa asked Luaro to take her out to the park. Luaro annoyed at the prospect went and told her off how frivolous it was and that they had a mission to go to in the morning. Along with the past abuse she has been going through with Lauro, his verbal attack on her sets off Rule #1. In going so, she kills Lauro. In killing Lauro, Elsa fails Rule #2 in instead of protecting him, she killed him. This she goes for Rule #3 in a big way, and activates in a way she knows how- killing herself. Similarly happened to Claes, in losing Rabello, she shuts down.

If Cyborg rules 1 (Protect thy self) and 2 (Protect your handler at all costs) were switched around - 1) Protect your handler at all costs. and 2) Protect thy self, then Elsa would not have shot Luaro at all.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 27 Nov 2010 - 0:25

I'm of the opinion the cyborgs put the lives of their handler's above their own.

Henrietta. Angelica. Petrushka. Triela.

All of them have put themselves at risk in order to protect their handlers.

Which makes sense, as they are far more robust then their handler and since the Medical Staff believes a cyborg cannot be paired with another handler, a cyborg that saves itself by sacrificing it's handler would be useless.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 27 Nov 2010 - 0:50

And those would be a valid points, which I agree as an end result of several factors that happened in the SWA.

With these 3 rules in this order, the cyborg will protect itself above the handler or agency staff. With Elsa self destructing due to this order, only speculations were flying about as to how to fix it. When Claes and Henrietta about to attack each other and their respective handlers, the agency forced the hands of the med-techs to fix this. With a revision of the rules (order of 1 & 2) being flipped, Claes was reprogrammed to this. Henrietta was not, and 'patched by Jose' with orders not to do this again.

As of Claes rewriting, all cyborgs after her are given this order of rules instead of the former set of rules in the first Gen girls. If the First Gen girls were rewritten, that remains to be unseen. But for the most part, they operated fine with the old orders, so why rewrite them?

As I stated, these rules, their orders and function from the orders, are all mine view of it. Like any program, any set order of rules within a program changes the definition when the order of rules is changed. This applies to your PC as it does the SWA Cyborg girls.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by hydra282 on Sat 27 Nov 2010 - 1:37

Don't you think before these rules were programmed, somebody would have looked over them and noticed that switching 1 and 2 around would be a lot better?
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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 27 Nov 2010 - 2:27

@hydra282 wrote:Don't you think before these rules were programmed, somebody would have looked over them and noticed that switching 1 and 2 around would be a lot better?
As a former 1980s video game programmer, one would think that in looking over the order that it would be fine. As then as it is now, I seen it happen again and again. Thusly, it happened to the SWA too.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by SPARTAN 119 on Sat 4 Dec 2010 - 22:30

My stance on the morality of the SWA:

Turning little girls into brainwashed cyborg assassins:
Immoral and illegal. While I'm not sure any of the handler (except maybe Jean) deserve to be imprisoned, If this happened in real life, the politicians and bureaucrats that came up with this ought to be charged with war crimes.

Use of the cyborgs to assassinate the opponent of a corrupt politician:
A blatantly illegal act that is simply unacceptable, undermines the very system of a democratically elected government.

Brainwashing/ Conditioning:
See statement on creating cyborg lolis.

Use of cybernetic technologies for military purposes:
A morally gray issue, can only be considered acceptable if the subjects are volunteers of legal age, who are briefed on the details of the cybernetics and not withheld information on any potential risks or side effects. Brainwashing or mind control should not be used, and subjects should be allowed to the option to return to civilian life after a tour of duty.



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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 5 Dec 2010 - 0:07

@SPARTAN 119 wrote:Use of cybernetic technologies for military purposes: A morally gray issue, can only be considered acceptable if the subjects are volunteers of legal age, who are briefed on the details of the cybernetics and not withheld information on any potential risks or side effects. Brainwashing or mind control should not be used, and subjects should be allowed to the option to return to civilian life after a tour of duty.
Depending on the technology, the USA military has used various (for the lack of a better word) things to try to enhance a soldier's killing ability on the battlefield. During the Viet Nam war, the use was PCP, Morphone/Heroine, and LSD was used to make the solider go into battle thinking and believing he's impervious to the shots being fired at him. Thus many soldiers went into battle in full charge of a situation they were not fully aware of the consequences or aware of the strategies involved for a win. Seeing it a failure, the drug program was dropped near the end of war in '72. It was discovered in the early part of the war when medics freely gave soldiers drugs to 'cut the edge off fighting,' and allowed to continue with a host of drug to enhance the soldier's ability to fight.

Also during the Viet Man war, pilots who flew missions suffered Information Overload from all the read outs, HUD information and radio chatter. A lot of them, recorded by their black boxes, would shut off much of the electronic communications and information displays to literally fly by the seat of their pants. Now fighter planes are less intrusive to the senses but some pilots still suffer from information overload. A person can only do so much and then filled with stress, will do less than expected.

Since then the USA has been trying various options to make it easier for the soldier/pilot to fight better while trying to maintain a stress free demeanor in the mission. At times it does not work, but things are improving. Sadly, those who fail are returned home and US programs have to deal with nearly all facets of their lives. It is a very high price a government has to pay for such programs to enhance their soldiers' ability.

Returning such soldiers to civilian life can be difficult for some. In all cases, the US Military strips all that the soldier has had to make him feel comfortable with (ie: his guns, tools and at times education). Sometimes soldiers turned civilian have years of trying to reestablish themselves back into the population. If they were cyborgs- the soldiers would give up their cybernetics and what parts were replaced with such cybernetics would be replaced with public domain prosthetics. This would be a very bad thing to have done to them.

These reasons are why such a cyborg program would be very expensive to maintain, and why the SWA would pay for so much for it.

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Re: The topic which Yu Aida brought to light which is why many of us likes the series?

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