If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Officer_Charon on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 3:56

Yeah... the odds of downing an attack helo with only small arms are stacked against the ground forces too much. Let him expend his fuel looking for you, then when he's bingo fuel and exfiling the area, that's when you can come out of hiding.

Anti-materiel rifles will work a treat against a helo, assuming you can land the shot against the moving target. The NTW-20 would definitely ensure that the helo was damaged, but it looks too unwieldy against a nimble helo, unless you were able to project the round from far enough away without presenting yourself as a target.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Three Dog on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 4:41

Officer_Charon wrote:Yeah... the odds of downing an attack helo with only small arms are stacked against the ground forces too much. Let him expend his fuel looking for you, then when he's bingo fuel and exfiling the area, that's when you can come out of hiding.

Anti-materiel rifles will work a treat against a helo, assuming you can land the shot against the moving target. The NTW-20 would definitely ensure that the helo was damaged, but it looks too unwieldy against a nimble helo, unless you were able to project the round from far enough away without presenting yourself as a target.

Yeah, I reckon in a video I watched about the NTW it said that it's mostly used against infrastructure.

And if worst comes to worst, use a sabotted Nokia Razz That'll take out a battleship!

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 5:09

Officer_Charon wrote:Yeah... the odds of downing an attack helo with only small arms are stacked against the ground forces too much. Let him expend his fuel looking for you, then when he's bingo fuel and exfiling the area, that's when you can come out of hiding.

Anti-materiel rifles will work a treat against a helo, assuming you can land the shot against the moving target. The NTW-20 would definitely ensure that the helo was damaged, but it looks too unwieldy against a nimble helo, unless you were able to project the round from far enough away without presenting yourself as a target.

only the African sniper can shoot Denel from far away excellently as the Denel 20mm itself were designed by the south African to engage a target from vast plain, Africa's common geographical shape. so it is possible to shoot the chopper engine 2 km away if you knew how to calibrate the shot...

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Officer_Charon on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 5:15

Extremely, EXTREMELY unlikely.

But it would work, under Rule of Cool. *chuckles wryly*

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 5:18

Officer_Charon wrote:Extremely, EXTREMELY unlikely.

But it would work, under Rule of Cool. *chuckles wryly*

besides..i believe in luck....planned, destined and executed by our god

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Alfisti on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 5:38

John_234 wrote:To be honest if there was an attack chopper and I had no antiair missiles or AAA, I'd hide.
There is A LOT to be said for running and hiding in certain situations.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 5:59

John_234 wrote:To be honest if there was an attack chopper and I had no antiair missiles or AAA, I'd hide.
Silber: i'm not retreating...i'm falling back tactically....

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 6:17

Look, if we're talking *attack* choppers there's no chance in hell the miniature 20mm the NTW-20 fires (which is smaller than what normal AA 20mms fire) would damage a vital, heavily armored component. Even if you could hit something that cruises at over 60 MPH in three planes of movement.

It's insanity unless, hell the thing is landed for repairs or rearmament or something.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 6:24

John_234 wrote:Look, if we're talking *attack* choppers there's no chance in hell the miniature 20mm the NTW-20 fires (which is smaller than what normal AA 20mms fire) would damage a vital, heavily armored component. Even if you could hit something that cruises at over 60 MPH in three planes of movement.

It's insanity unless, hell the thing is landed for repairs or rearmament or something.

i would rather try to bring down the plane,rather running....consider using this shit...

Serbu BFG-50 Carbine w/ EOtech 551

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 6:30

plus, what this ? any know wha's this?
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 6:37

Sherry: what would you call a special op guy, doing special op mission?

Yuki: dunno?

Sherry: a tactical operator operating tactically in tactical operation

Yuki: Puzzled
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 6:49

Alfisti wrote:There is A LOT to be said for running and hiding in certain situations.

Indeed.


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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Three Dog on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 6:59

KuroNeko wrote:
John_234 wrote:To be honest if there was an attack chopper and I had no antiair missiles or AAA, I'd hide.
Silber: i'm not retreating...i'm falling back tactically....

Victoria: Wait, what?! We're retreating?!

Barry: We're not retreating. We're advancing, backwards. Razz

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by MP5 on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 7:23

Three steps to dealing with an enemy helicopter:

Run.

Hide.

Then call in your own air support. Preferably with more guns and missiles than the attack helicopter you're facing.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Awinnell on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 9:30

KuroNeko wrote:plus, what this ? any know wha's this?

Chinese QLZ-87 35 mm grenade launcher with 15 round drum magazine,one of the lightest automatic grenade launchers around,can be carried by one man

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 12:49

Awinnell wrote:
KuroNeko wrote:plus, what this ? any know wha's this?

Chinese QLZ-87 35 mm grenade launcher with 15 round drum magazine,one of the lightest automatic grenade launchers around,can be carried by one man

Certainly an unusual stock configuration for one, though.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Il Direttore on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 13:16

May I just say that thing with the Apache chopper is fucking terrifying to watch?

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 13:38

Awinnell wrote:
Mr. Antonic wrote:
John_234 wrote:Not that the NTW-20 will do anything to an armored vehicle... Razz

I was under the impression that teh armour piercing incendiary rounds that it can fire were designed specifically for such a task?

it would have trouble piercing the armour of a AFV and certainly not a Tank,its mostly meant for lightly armoured vehicles(Hummers,Land Rovers etc) and soft targets like trucks and cars

Whoa. That is a lot of replies for just less than 24 hours! Anyways...

You can use amour piercing and incendiary rounds on anything. Thing is, such rounds chew up a barrel like you would not believe, and have to replace them very often. Fernando uses such rounds in his 1911s, but in scrap 1911s, not his AA M1981/84. Only thing good is that when fingerprinting rounds found at the scene, such round would change the fingerprint of the barrel in as little as 20 shots. This would get any civilian forensic team scratching their heads.

Just calculating the figures in my head, for a hand gun, it would only last for a couple hundred rounds, 500 max, for amour piercing and incendiary rounds, compared to a few thousands with regular loads. With rifles its a much longer. Then again, what kind of cooling do they have? In WWI, water cooled machine guns lasted longer with amour piercing and incendiary rounds than air cooled.

For hand guns, they would become too hot to handle after a few rounds, this Fernando when using them, uses them sparingly. Same with rifles and machine guns have a slightly longer life in that regard.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 13:52

The latest version of the M1 tank is designed to defeat 125mm rounds. A 20mm round will just scratch the paint.

Heck, the M2 IFV and M3 CFV both use Aluminum armor and they can absorb 30mm autocannon fire.

The LAV-25 is good for 14.5x114mm, though it is being upgraded with better armor protection around the crew compartment.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 15:12

ElfenMagix wrote:
Awinnell wrote:
Mr. Antonic wrote:
John_234 wrote:Not that the NTW-20 will do anything to an armored vehicle... Razz

I was under the impression that teh armour piercing incendiary rounds that it can fire were designed specifically for such a task?

it would have trouble piercing the armour of a AFV and certainly not a Tank,its mostly meant for lightly armoured vehicles(Hummers,Land Rovers etc) and soft targets like trucks and cars

Whoa. That is a lot of replies for just less than 24 hours! Anyways...

You can use amour piercing and incendiary rounds on anything. Thing is, such rounds chew up a barrel like you would not believe, and have to replace them very often. Fernando uses such rounds in his 1911s, but in scrap 1911s, not his AA M1981/84. Only thing good is that when fingerprinting rounds found at the scene, such round would change the fingerprint of the barrel in as little as 20 shots. This would get any civilian forensic team scratching their heads.

Just calculating the figures in my head, for a hand gun, it would only last for a couple hundred rounds, 500 max, for amour piercing and incendiary rounds, compared to a few thousands with regular loads. With rifles its a much longer. Then again, what kind of cooling do they have? In WWI, water cooled machine guns lasted longer with amour piercing and incendiary rounds than air cooled.

For hand guns, they would become too hot to handle after a few rounds, this Fernando when using them, uses them sparingly. Same with rifles and machine guns have a slightly longer life in that regard.

Yeah, though it is worth considering AP rounds with sabot. I know VBR-Belgium makes a .45 ACP round that uses a plastic sabot for a 7.92 penetrator. I think those would not wear as bad.

I DO know that M855A1 5.56 "green tip" essentially has a normal barrel life. It's a copper-jacketed bullet with a tungsten core, fired at normal velocities.

Though, I'm pretty sure incendiary rounds, though totally feasible in a handgun or rifle are simply not used in anything smaller than .50 BMG because the bullets are too small to hold much explosive.


Kiskaloo wrote:The latest version of the M1 tank is designed to defeat 125mm rounds. A 20mm round will just scratch the paint.

Heck, the M2 IFV and M3 CFV both use Aluminum armor and they can absorb 30mm autocannon fire.

The LAV-25 is good for 14.5x114mm, though it is being upgraded with better armor protection around the crew compartment.

Due to how the Abrams, like most MBTs are designed, you can actually penetrate the rear and sometimes sides of the tank with cannon fire and RPGs. In the invasion of Iraq, a lucky RPG-7 with it's old-style warhead (250mms of penetration versus 900 or so on new ones) hit above the engine and disabled the vehicle by puncturing the thin metal protecting the fuel tank, causing a spill onto the extremely hot engine and a fire that lasted for hours. The Abrams also has an exposed APU (Auxillary Power Unit), which looks like a box sitting behind the turret. This powers the turret, sighting and all the electronics when the turbine is not spooled up, and due to it's add-on nature, it's not armored by the hull and can actually be destroyed by machine gun fire.

Depending on WHICH 20mm, you could do serious damage to an MBT if you hit it in the right place.

The LAV-25, believe it or not is classified as an armored car, hence the relative lack of protection. It's pretty hideously vulnerable, which is why most are outfitted with cage armor to stop RPGs.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 22:27

ElfenMagix wrote:
Awinnell wrote:
Mr. Antonic wrote:
John_234 wrote:Not that the NTW-20 will do anything to an armored vehicle... Razz

I was under the impression that teh armour piercing incendiary rounds that it can fire were designed specifically for such a task?

it would have trouble piercing the armour of a AFV and certainly not a Tank,its mostly meant for lightly armoured vehicles(Hummers,Land Rovers etc) and soft targets like trucks and cars

Whoa. That is a lot of replies for just less than 24 hours! Anyways...

You can use amour piercing and incendiary rounds on anything. Thing is, such rounds chew up a barrel like you would not believe, and have to replace them very often. Fernando uses such rounds in his 1911s, but in scrap 1911s, not his AA M1981/84. Only thing good is that when fingerprinting rounds found at the scene, such round would change the fingerprint of the barrel in as little as 20 shots. This would get any civilian forensic team scratching their heads.

Just calculating the figures in my head, for a hand gun, it would only last for a couple hundred rounds, 500 max, for amour piercing and incendiary rounds, compared to a few thousands with regular loads. With rifles its a much longer. Then again, what kind of cooling do they have? In WWI, water cooled machine guns lasted longer with amour piercing and incendiary rounds than air cooled.

For hand guns, they would become too hot to handle after a few rounds, this Fernando when using them, uses them sparingly. Same with rifles and machine guns have a slightly longer life in that regard.

i remembered a story about using special ammunition affected the barrel...in world war 2, Battleship musashi fired her shell, Sanshiki AA flak from it's main 18.1', it damaged the barrel...

and the LAV, i tough that thing is Amphibious Reconnaissance Vehicle....it can travel to water under specific condition right? so it must be used for recon mission...
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 22:35

pick your battle/sniper rifle of choice!

i'll take the m21...
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 22:47


Sherry: choose anything my dear...
Ai: MUST....CHOOSE...WISELY*eye wildly rolling*
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by dragonfire238 on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 22:55

i would choose the m21 as well as for the assult rifles i like the FN SCAR
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 1:05

KuroNeko wrote:i remembered a story about using special ammunition affected the barrel...in world war 2, Battleship musashi fired her shell, Sanshiki AA flak from it's main 18.1', it damaged the barrel...
They didn't damage the barrels any more than any other kind of shell would 'damage' its gun barrel. All shells erode gun barrels to an extent.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 1:13

Nachtsider wrote:
KuroNeko wrote:i remembered a story about using special ammunition affected the barrel...in world war 2, Battleship musashi fired her shell, Sanshiki AA flak from it's main 18.1', it damaged the barrel...
They didn't damage the barrels any more than any other kind of shell would 'damage' its gun barrel. All shells erode gun barrels to an extent.

but the sanshiki flak shell use powerful beehive type shell, making huge fireball, as seen in battle of sibuyan seas, disrupting the aa gun view and overheating the gun barrel, also it damage the rifling of the barrel
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 2:02

A properly designed canister / beehive shell should not damage the gun.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 2:13

John_234 wrote:A properly designed canister / beehive shell should not damage the gun.

well you know the japanese during the ww2....almost in the brink of losing the war,the Sanshiki shell were improperly manufactured,faulty fuse and overexceding usage of gunpowder in it.
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 2:16

Well, that's a fault of poor manufacturing quality, which has nothing to do with the overall effects of armor piercing or otherwise exotic ammo.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 2:20

if they even use the un-faulty sanshiki shell, th result is still the same, as the sanshiki firing blast damage the rifling of the barrel
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 3:16

That has nothing to do with the vast majority of specialty munitions/

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 3:18

the gun rifling in any sniper can be damaged by using special round....one of my uncle told me he frequently replace the barrel of his sniper when using special round during his training...
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 4:05

That's even harder to believe, because snipers have to keep exact logs of their weapon's performance. A new barrel would make that information-keeping totally meaningless.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 4:09

that what my uncle say to me...
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by dragonfire238 on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 14:15

i believe what is ment is that your when your uncle uses a special round that could damage the barrel he changes it so that it doesnt effect the accuracy of his normal barrel
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 18:35

That's a good point, but re-barreling a rifle has a huge effect on accuracy, even if its the same barrel.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 19:08

Well, if you're using an HE or Incendiary round, you're not really going for accuracy so much as Blast Damage, right?



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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Wed 22 Aug 2012 - 19:40

Well, explosive ammo for an anti-material rifle has to be accurate enough to hit delicate components, so it's not really any different than normal ammo.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Wingdking on Tue 29 Jan 2013 - 0:11

I would give my cyborg my fav handgun a 1911a1 pistol for a main battle rifle a fal or a m4 like I carried In Iraq I would also give her a m60e4 a a navy seal version of the original m60
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Tue 29 Jan 2013 - 17:01

Time and a bit of experience have changed my original opinions quite a bit.

Handguns
Spoiler:

First off, I generally don't suggest 1911s to anybody, especially those inexperienced with firearms. They require extra attention for training due to locked and cocked, are pickier with reliability and hold less rounds in most cases. 1911s are great firearms if they fit you, but I think a 1911 should be a choice, rather than something forced onto you because it requires a specific shooter and mindset.

I also don't like DA/SA guns with a first double-action trigger pull followed by a lighter SA pull. It creates the need to decock, learn two different trigger pulls and largely complicates the act of making the first shot. There's been shootouts where DA/SA guns have made persons believe their guns were malfunctioning because the trigger felt different - this is still very much a training issue, but I think it's unnecessary hassle when learning the basics and improving your work. The worst out of the DA/SA crowd is probably the widely-used Beretta 92F, for a variety of reasons. In short, the clunky ergos combined with a bad safety and DA/SA make it a pain to use for a good chunk of shooters.

Many older DA handguns - Sig P series, USP, S&W 3rd Gen all have a high bore axis which increases muzzle flip even across the same caliber. The 1911, while older has always had a superior bore axis to many designs. Similar for the excellent CZ-75 and the Jericho 941, which derive their design from the Browning HP. The DA/SA handgun is alright when combined with a manual safety that allows locked and cocked, IMO.

Striker-fired handguns are often a good option in my eyes. While materials offer many good benefits, what's important for me is the ergonomic aspect - a light, consistent trigger pull every shot and a grip that allows you to get your hand up there and keep the muzzle on target. Combined with more rounds, they're a very logical option for a new shooter which doesn't have a whole lot of preference.

As for caliber, I like 9mm and .45 ACP. .40 S&W is good, .357 Sig is good, .380 is good for pocket pistols. If you don't have any preference, its hard to go wrong with 9mm Parabellum. Its probably the smallest caliber that can meet the FBI's ballistic gel test standards, but more importantly it recoils less and gives you a lot of ammo. Handguns are all inherently underpowered - more rounds on target faster, more accurately is what makes the difference IMHO. I like .45, on the other hand because it hits hard and also doesn't have much recoil at all in the proper handgun, capacity being its prime downfall.

My choice for most cyborgs would be the Glock 19. That would be the baseline, being a good size for all-round use, having plenty of rounds and being dead reliable. Once the basics were down, we'd try the other sizes in the Glock family, the different calibers, then other polymer designs, DA/SA, 1911s, revolvers. Try a bit of everything so we can figure out what works best.

Rifles
Spoiler:
I am a big fan of DI AR-15 pattern rifles due to their ease of use and ability for customization. DI being what M16-pattern ARs use, with just a hollow gas tube instead of a piston as on most rifles. That's a different discussion, but again, firearms are all preference so we'd start at the AR and branch out into other rifle platforms to see what fits.

So our main points to decide on is caliber and accessories. Intermediate caliber assault rifles or battle rifles - what you use is determined by the range you're working at and your cyborg's individual ergonomics. Not recoil so much, but the length and bulk of a weapon determines what sort of person can handle it. Cyborg parts don't make your adolescent limbs as long as an adult, and a battle rifle is going to be heavier than an equivalent model in a intermediate cartridge.

With precision rifles, it's entirely preference. .308 / 7.62x51mm is a good caliber. .279 and .243 is good in the US due to their proliferation. .338 is great when you're pushing the 1000 meter envelope, IMO. Along with .50 BMG it's going to be your choice for Anti-Material capability.

Shotgun
Spoiler:
As much as anything else, scatterguns are preference. The bigger question is whether to use them or not. A shotgun is an odd weapon. A shell is like a magazine for a pocket pistol insofar as firepower goes, and you're constantly reloading that shotgun to keep rounds on target in a timely manner. The amount of training invested to keep a shotgun running is far more than a rifle. You have to reload, change ammo, pattern at ranges, work the action - it's a lot of complexity.

I'd go for the Rem 870 or Mossy for pump guns, 870 being my preference. For autos, the 1100, 1187 and Benellis are excellent choices, it essentially boiling down to what bolt release and method of operation works for you. The Saiga is a competitive option as well, offering a unique capability to use magazines - its far more practical than the USAS, AA-12 and similar systems.

SMGs
Spoiler:
Generally speaking, I've found the new developments in SBR technology have made SMGs largely obsolete, especially with a cyborg who isn't as fazed by muzzle flash and recoil. SMGs are generally just nice to shoot. The MP5 is very bulky for what it is, but it's undeniably easy to control and accurate. It's good for when firepower isn't the defining factor, and body armor isn't so likely. Generation 1s might have to use SMGs more than rifles because of ergonomic constraints.

Machine pistols, on the other hand lose a lot of their downsides with a cyborg that can control the recoil, so IMO things like the Glock 18, Micro Uzi, Scorpion and such are much more viable, especially as a concealed weapon. The MP7 would fit perfectly into an executive protection role, for example.

The MP5 and UMP are good choices for primary weapons, the P90 offers a lot of firepower in the direct action role. Other than that, I'm not huge on SMGs.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Il Direttore on Thu 31 Jan 2013 - 0:32

John_234 wrote:Time and a bit of experience have changed my original opinions quite a bit.

Handguns
Spoiler:

First off, I generally don't suggest 1911s to anybody, especially those inexperienced with firearms. They require extra attention for training due to locked and cocked, are pickier with reliability and hold less rounds in most cases. 1911s are great firearms if they fit you, but I think a 1911 should be a choice, rather than something forced onto you because it requires a specific shooter and mindset.

I also don't like DA/SA guns with a first double-action trigger pull followed by a lighter SA pull. It creates the need to decock, learn two different trigger pulls and largely complicates the act of making the first shot. There's been shootouts where DA/SA guns have made persons believe their guns were malfunctioning because the trigger felt different - this is still very much a training issue, but I think it's unnecessary hassle when learning the basics and improving your work. The worst out of the DA/SA crowd is probably the widely-used Beretta 92F, for a variety of reasons. In short, the clunky ergos combined with a bad safety and DA/SA make it a pain to use for a good chunk of shooters.

Many older DA handguns - Sig P series, USP, S&W 3rd Gen all have a high bore axis which increases muzzle flip even across the same caliber. The 1911, while older has always had a superior bore axis to many designs. Similar for the excellent CZ-75 and the Jericho 941, which derive their design from the Browning HP. The DA/SA handgun is alright when combined with a manual safety that allows locked and cocked, IMO.

Striker-fired handguns are often a good option in my eyes. While materials offer many good benefits, what's important for me is the ergonomic aspect - a light, consistent trigger pull every shot and a grip that allows you to get your hand up there and keep the muzzle on target. Combined with more rounds, they're a very logical option for a new shooter which doesn't have a whole lot of preference.

As for caliber, I like 9mm and .45 ACP. .40 S&W is good, .357 Sig is good, .380 is good for pocket pistols. If you don't have any preference, its hard to go wrong with 9mm Parabellum. Its probably the smallest caliber that can meet the FBI's ballistic gel test standards, but more importantly it recoils less and gives you a lot of ammo. Handguns are all inherently underpowered - more rounds on target faster, more accurately is what makes the difference IMHO. I like .45, on the other hand because it hits hard and also doesn't have much recoil at all in the proper handgun, capacity being its prime downfall.

My choice for most cyborgs would be the Glock 19. That would be the baseline, being a good size for all-round use, having plenty of rounds and being dead reliable. Once the basics were down, we'd try the other sizes in the Glock family, the different calibers, then other polymer designs, DA/SA, 1911s, revolvers. Try a bit of everything so we can figure out what works best.

Rifles
Spoiler:
I am a big fan of DI AR-15 pattern rifles due to their ease of use and ability for customization. DI being what M16-pattern ARs use, with just a hollow gas tube instead of a piston as on most rifles. That's a different discussion, but again, firearms are all preference so we'd start at the AR and branch out into other rifle platforms to see what fits.

So our main points to decide on is caliber and accessories. Intermediate caliber assault rifles or battle rifles - what you use is determined by the range you're working at and your cyborg's individual ergonomics. Not recoil so much, but the length and bulk of a weapon determines what sort of person can handle it. Cyborg parts don't make your adolescent limbs as long as an adult, and a battle rifle is going to be heavier than an equivalent model in a intermediate cartridge.

With precision rifles, it's entirely preference. .308 / 7.62x51mm is a good caliber. .279 and .243 is good in the US due to their proliferation. .338 is great when you're pushing the 1000 meter envelope, IMO. Along with .50 BMG it's going to be your choice for Anti-Material capability.

Shotgun
Spoiler:
As much as anything else, scatterguns are preference. The bigger question is whether to use them or not. A shotgun is an odd weapon. A shell is like a magazine for a pocket pistol insofar as firepower goes, and you're constantly reloading that shotgun to keep rounds on target in a timely manner. The amount of training invested to keep a shotgun running is far more than a rifle. You have to reload, change ammo, pattern at ranges, work the action - it's a lot of complexity.

I'd go for the Rem 870 or Mossy for pump guns, 870 being my preference. For autos, the 1100, 1187 and Benellis are excellent choices, it essentially boiling down to what bolt release and method of operation works for you. The Saiga is a competitive option as well, offering a unique capability to use magazines - its far more practical than the USAS, AA-12 and similar systems.

SMGs
Spoiler:
Generally speaking, I've found the new developments in SBR technology have made SMGs largely obsolete, especially with a cyborg who isn't as fazed by muzzle flash and recoil. SMGs are generally just nice to shoot. The MP5 is very bulky for what it is, but it's undeniably easy to control and accurate. It's good for when firepower isn't the defining factor, and body armor isn't so likely. Generation 1s might have to use SMGs more than rifles because of ergonomic constraints.

Machine pistols, on the other hand lose a lot of their downsides with a cyborg that can control the recoil, so IMO things like the Glock 18, Micro Uzi, Scorpion and such are much more viable, especially as a concealed weapon. The MP7 would fit perfectly into an executive protection role, for example.

The MP5 and UMP are good choices for primary weapons, the P90 offers a lot of firepower in the direct action role. Other than that, I'm not huge on SMGs.

What are your main considerations when making these choices? When it comes to firearms, and my admittedly limited knowledge about them, my logic has always been framed around dominating a battlefield as rapidly as possible before moving in to take down the enemy. Would you consider this a flawed methodology?

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Thu 31 Jan 2013 - 5:23

El Conservatore wrote:What are your main considerations when making these choices? When it comes to firearms, and my admittedly limited knowledge about them, my logic has always been framed around dominating a battlefield as rapidly as possible before moving in to take down the enemy. Would you consider this a flawed methodology?

I would say that the singular criterion is that as long as the weapon is reliable and powerful enough to reach the internal organs of the target consistently, it should above all fit you individually. It's only in special cases like GSG-style intelligence work where you would change away from a gun that you can use very well, say if the gun would be highly conspicuous in a setting.

The general idea of dominating the battlefield is generally something you'd like - who doesn't enjoy an easy battle? But I think the important thing is to have enough weapons and armor for a situation without necessarily making that apparent to the bad guys. A machine gun in a cello case is going to be a lot more conspicuous than a handgun in your clothing if you're just walking around.

Don't go around asking for a fight, but if you know a fight is coming, do everything you can to win it. Use the rounds that you can shoot the fastest and most accurately, use the rifle that you can operate the fastest, and wear armor that stops common threats without slowing you down excessively.

Accuracy and low recoil is a really important thing for me. It's why I'd take a 1911 over a USP .45 - the 1911 is more ergonomic and just stays on target better during rapid fire even though it carries less ammo, so I personally consider it more combat effective for me specifically. It's not going to be an absolute for everyone, but you can see common factors with choices out there.

Take the Glock pistol.

The Glock can be had for less than $500 and is 100% reliable with factory ammo. Cheaper gun, easier to get, easier to have spares.

Its light with its polymer frame, not very thick and is smaller than a lot of comparable handguns for a given size class (Glock 17 vs 1911, Glock 19 vs Sig P229.) It can be very easy to conceal a Glock, meaning you can take it more places.

It's an amazing handgun from a mechanical standpoint and is very simple. Less jamming = less time trying to fix your gun when someone is shooting at you.

It carries a ton of rounds without being ergonomically very large like a 92F or a USP. You can carry 20 rounds in the thing if you use a +2 pad. More bullets at your disposal means the longer time between reloads, and if the bad guy has to reload before you do, that's a good thing.

It has a short, crisp trigger that's the same every shot, which means you can fire faster and more accurately. Some other person might have to fiddle with a safety, or a hard first trigger pull. The Glock is straightforward, so training is often a lot easier with it.

The grip allows you to really get your hand high up on there, and the polymer frame soaks up a tiny bit of recoil. The result is though light, the Glock is very controllable during rapid fire - again, even if you're panicking and in a gunfight, there's nothing to lose with having an accurate weapon.

With the Glock 19, you lose two rounds, but you could carry a 15 round mag and reload with 19 rounders. You do get a bit more recoil and a shorter sight radius, though.

So there's always these factors that work out in different ways for different people, but I think a lot of people see the Glock the same way.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Thu 31 Jan 2013 - 5:51

i'll stick to Sig Sauer based pistol series (any of it...but i'll put GSR in front for a reason)

plus any Accuracy international rifle series with SIG sauer SSG3000 sniper rifle XD

with barrett M95 as their backup rifle
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Alfisti on Thu 31 Jan 2013 - 6:57

John_234 wrote:Accuracy and low recoil is a really important thing for me. It's why I'd take a 1911 over a USP .45 - the 1911 is more ergonomic and just stays on target better during rapid fire even though it carries less ammo, so I personally consider it more combat effective for me specifically. It's not going to be an absolute for everyone, but you can see common factors with choices out there.
Heh, the way you talk about 1911s sounds a bit the way I talk about Alfa Romeos... I love them to pieces but would never, ever reccomend someone buy one unless I thought they were the sort of person who was going to get along with that sort of thing. Razz


On another note:


[Insert disclaimer about not knowing much on guns here and usually tackling them from a character rather than technical perspective here]

Well it’s almost bang-on two years since my original reply here, and I’ve been letting the rusty cogs grind around since the thread popped up again. In retrospect, and specific firearm choices aside, it might not be a bad plan to make the first weapon given to the cyborg some sort of concealable or backup piece.

Bear with me on this…

Now, I’m a firm believer in the theory that cyborg wakes up; handler gives cyborg firearm (or some other token, but generally a firearm); and effectively seals the deal, with that weapon becoming a sort of physical signifier of the fratello relationship… with a corresponding attachment to that gun for the cyborg due to what it represents. Remember how cut up Triela was over losing her P230 to Pino?

Anyway.

The thinking runs thusly: give her something small she can carry all the time and will be a backup… then you can chop and change primary sidearms and other weapons around as times go on and tastes/requirements change without effecting that initial link. It’s probably not the most original idea, and boring from a narrative/character building perspective, but possibly practical…

As for what that would be would vary depending of what role said fratello was supposed to fill. The idea falls apart somewhat for a Monty type role where what would normally be classified as a backup/defensive piece is also required to serve as her primary and only firearm. On the other end of the spectrum a fratello expected to work less in an undercover environment and more as an offensive/commando unit might be better choosing a compact version of a full size combat pistol.

Alfisti’s fratello? Well no-one in their right mind would put me in a commando role. I’m a geek and my basic instinct in the case of violence is to run the other direction… fast (anyone who says geeks are no good at track and field is just wrong, running fast is a key survival skill), and the theory doesn’t fit a J+M role. So lets say a “regular” fratello with a bias toward undercover work and a second-gen cyborg (I don’t like teenagers as a group, but I like children even less). In that case the choice would be… actually I’m not entirely certain. The P232 originally mentioned though probably wouldn’t be in the picture anymore. It gets good reports, but I’ve come to realise it is somewhat large for what it is…

The current front runner would be the Walther PPS.


Yes, I once described it as “looking like it fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down” ...and it’s still not pretty, but it does possess a certain ergonomic, utilitarian ugliness which is growing on me. More to the point perhaps you get a minimum of 6+1 (8+1 with the largest factory magazine) rounds of 9x19mm in a package not much larger than its significantly more attractive forbearer; the PPK.

Which I guess would make the obvious place to start for a combat pistol, were it ever required; the same manufacturer’s PPQ,and take it from there.


tl;dr: Rest of the loadout aside, what would you be giving to your cyborg upon commissioning/wakeup, be it pistol, assault rifle or something completely different, and why?

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Thu 31 Jan 2013 - 14:28

Personally I think in a J/M fratello, you'd just use multiple guns. The gun in your safehouse or vehicle is going to be bulkier and probably hold more ammo. Your winter clothing will probably have a heavier gun. Again, I guess its logical but not a lot of people like the idea of having guns be less iconic elements of your characters and more disposable tools like they are in reality.

Plus, like Alfi said its such a distinct part of the cyborg and handler bonding. But its a less realistic aspect of GSG. Change names, passports, makeup, but not the tools that leave the most forensic evidence? 007 gives a bad example in most films - he has the same gun across some nearly twenty films. If you shot someone in intelligence work, there would probably be tons of paperwork waiting for you as your now incriminating weapon is disposed or moved out of your rotation of weapons.

Though, on the topic of specific guns the P232 isn't bad. Its size and construction soak up recoil. And its very slim. But if I were to upgrade, it would probably be magazine capacity before caliber. Going from 7+1 .380 ACP to 6+1 of 9mm Para seems like a horizontal move to me, because you get better ballistics but more recoil and bulk. A 230 is as smooth as a cueball. It doesn't print as much because the lines are a lot less aggressive. On the other hand... the PPS is a Block, IMO.

I don't like the aesthetics primarily because it looks as unobtrusive as a boat anchor. It looks like it would print horribly.

There's a reason I went to the Cz83 and the Bersa. They retain the form factor for the most part and provide a definite upgrade of firepower.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Alfisti on Thu 31 Jan 2013 - 17:28

John_234 wrote:Personally I think in a J/M fratello, you'd just use multiple guns. The gun in your safehouse or vehicle is going to be bulkier and probably hold more ammo. Your winter clothing will probably have a heavier gun. Again, I guess its logical but not a lot of people like the idea of having guns be less iconic elements of your characters and more disposable tools like they are in reality.
See, I'm still not sure about the multiple guns thing in a J+M role... I could see it becoming a logistical problem. Jethro and Monty do a lot of border crossings, regularly, often between countries which do not much care for one another (see Cypriot Green Line). They, and their vehicle, going to get searched time and time again. More firearms = more things to try and hide (once you include ammunition, magazines, etc) = greater chance of being detected... and they would need to carry cold/hot weather firearms with them as well if going down the path suggested as they can be between the tropics and Siberia inside of a week. This is why they also carry very few "spy" gadgets, and the modificatons to their car are civillian-practical and the type which can be done at any 4x4 shop; the best way for it not to be discoverd is to not have it in the first place.

Quite often the nature of J+M's work means they'll never need to draw a gun either (it took the entire comic + 6 chapters of story for Monty to even shoot someone, and 11 chapters at 20k words a pop for her to do it with her own gun), so there's little point in going to the additional risk of trying to pick something up in-country. If they look like needing a more appropriate disposable firearm, then they can aquire one (and they do), but they need to have something just incase everything goes south in a hurry; hence the PPK (Monty) & P230 (Jethro).

That's the in-story reasoning at least.

From a writer's perspective: yes, I consider the choice of firearms to be another vehicle by which to help build a character in the reader's mind (in J+M's case: guns are a last resort which preferably will never be used... and a leaning toward old/proven equipment)... and to be honest I personally find under-equiping my fratello to complicate their lives fun. Those who've read my writings will probably note that pretty much all other characters who are armed are armed with what are probably more practical choices.

Those are my leanings at least... of course your mileage may vary.



John_234 wrote:Plus, like Alfi said its such a distinct part of the cyborg and handler bonding. But its a less realistic aspect of GSG. Change names, passports, makeup, but not the tools that leave the most forensic evidence? 007 gives a bad example in most films - he has the same gun across some nearly twenty films.
Mate, Bond had a hover-gondola... I think we can safely assume there's a certain amount of escapisim involved in the francise Razz

On that note though; while it wasn't what I was originally thinking of; that disposablity may be another reason to make the first piece given a backup: something with a low propensity for use which would almost always be overshadowed by some other, more powerful, weapon or carried on missions less likely to require it being drawn. It would make it easier for the gun actually used to ditched if need be without needing to somehow wrestle it off a distraught cyborg Razz



John_234 wrote:I don't like the aesthetics primarily because it looks as unobtrusive as a boat anchor. It looks like it would print horribly.
Honestly, that hadn't even crossed my mind (possibly because I don't, and likely never will... seeing as how it's illegal and all), but it is something to think on.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Thu 31 Jan 2013 - 20:17

Yeah, it is a bit troublesome when traveling - I'd strive to get locally acquired but depending on how long you're staying it can be impractical.

I'll openly admit I'm weird even for an American, so I'd say most people regardless of country don't put a whole lot of thought into concealing firearms. I personally think organic contours and grip shape is key. A Block has a very distinct shape, but not a lot of sharp edges. 1911s are thin, but their grip is very rectangular and prints against a lot of clothing. The Sig is nice because it has organic contours on top of being a reasonably compact pistol.

My point with all that is a P230 isn't necessarily obsolete. It has factors beside firepower that justify it.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by tremec6speed on Fri 1 Feb 2013 - 14:47

I'd ask my little Killer 'borg to try out different weapons and which ever she likes the most, she keeps.
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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by taerKitty on Fri 1 Feb 2013 - 16:51

Because Glock magazines can be interchanged, I'd just go with Glocks.

- Let's say a 26 for the always-carry 'holdout' gun

- A pair of 34s for when they expect to find trouble

- A pair of 18s for when they expect to dish it out

I'm not going to go for the John Woo dual-wield - a second pistol is a fast reload.

As I've told John, for humour value, at some point I hope to have the cyborg left with the 26, but feeding it the 33-round mags from normally used in the 18s. It'd look ridiculous and be unwieldy as all get out, but would look hilarious.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Fri 1 Feb 2013 - 18:23

Course, you could also use Glock 19s with 17+2 magazines for a lot of firepower, too. I personally find the G26 to be uncomfortable, and so do a lot of other people, so I find it more of a very specific concealed carry gun when you're in a hot climate or other place that specifies less clothing.

I don't really tend to like the 33 round mags simply because carrying them around is more hassle than the gun itself.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by taerKitty on Fri 1 Feb 2013 - 18:38

I know, I know. It's impractical as all get-out, but I figure a 26's well-suited height-wise for a cyborg. It'll still be too deep, but I think that'll be a problem with any pistol designed for an adult (and usually male) hand.

@John - you were the one who found the pic of the 26 with a 33-round stick. It looks so stupidly silly that I'd love to see my cyborg using it (even if under protest.)


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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Fri 1 Feb 2013 - 21:51

Well, in a direct-action role there's really not too much wrong with a 33 round mag in your tactical gear, so its not that ridiculous in a given situation.

But I'd probably have the 10 or 12 shot (with the grip pad) with a 19 round as a reload.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 13 May 2013 - 22:50

Here's something Avise might want to consider for Agapita: the MAPAM mortar round.

The MAPAAM uses 2000 steel balls for it's offensive punch, but they're designed to spread out in a pre-defined pattern and to a uniform maximum distance which allows you to drop rounds closer to your own forces. When working in urban areas, it would help minimize collateral damage while maximizing lethality.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Officer_Charon on Mon 13 May 2013 - 23:05

Ah, a smaller-caliber, non-explosive DPICM round. Nifty!

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by Alfisti on Tue 14 May 2013 - 6:13

Kiskaloo wrote:Here's something Avise might want to consider for Agapita: the MAPAM mortar round.
Well... it's made by SAAB so should be a) original and b) completely bonkers.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

Post by John_234 on Tue 14 May 2013 - 6:21

I think the Israelis take the cake though, with thinks like turning enemy T-72s into APCs, and a rifle grenade that's essentially a claymore fired off the end of your rifle barrel. It's packed with flechettes, like a buckshot round for a 40mm.

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Re: If you were to be a handler what weapons would you give to your charge?

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