[EDIT]

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Post by Lyndist on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 10:33

[EDIT]


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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Professor Voodoo on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 12:56

@lyndist wrote: I am not a fan of manga but i like gunslinger,not sure how but i think because i like those girl and story.very....Humanities.
Welcome lyndist. That is the reason many of us were attracted to this story.
if the girl shoot RPG like this in real.she been burn alive,if she lucky enough-the gun is explosive and she have a painless death.
That's good information. The character holding the weapon on that page is actually a human boy...and not a cyborg. He is Pinocchio who played a large role in Chapters 13-27.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 13:15

It's not just in the movies. Helicopters have been shot down by RPGs in real life. How do you explain that?

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Lyndist on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 13:43

[EDIT]


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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 13:50

I'm not talking about Vietnam. I'm talking about Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan. Are you telling me that the witnesses who saw RPGs take down those Pave Lows, Black Hawks and Chinooks were lying?

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Lyndist on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 14:01

[EDIT]


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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 14:06

I guess you do, pal. I guess you do.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Professor Voodoo on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 14:12

The Wikipedia article implies that it is possible, but very difficult:

The sighting required for the RPG-7 makes a hit on a moving aircraft or helicopter highly unlikely. Helicopters are typically ambushed as they land, take off or hover. In Afghanistan, the Mujahideen often modified RPGs for use against Soviet helicopters by adding a curved pipe to the rear of the launcher tube, which diverted the backblast, allowing the RPG to be fired upward at aircraft from a prone position. This made the operator less visible prior to firing and decreased the risk of injury from hot exhaust gases. Mujahideen also utilised the 4.5-second timer on RPG rounds to make the weapon function as part of a flak battery. Multiple launchers were used to increase the chances of a hit.
At the time, Soviet helicopters countered the threat from RPGs at landing zones by first clearing them with anti-personnel saturation fire. The Soviets also varied the number of accompanying helicopters (two or three) in an effort to upset Afghan force estimations and preparation. In response, the Mujahideen prepared dug-in firing positions with top cover, and again, Soviet forces altered their tactics by using air-dropped fuel-air bombs on such landing zones. As the U.S.-supplied Stinger surface-to-air missiles became available to them, the Afghans abandoned RPG attacks.
Both of the Black Hawk helicopters lost by the U.S. during the Battle of Mogadishu in Somalia in 1993 were downed by RPG-7s.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Lyndist on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 14:26

[EDIT]
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Re: [EDIT]

Post by maverick375 on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 17:16

If I remember correctly( not from the movie), the first Blackhawk downed in Somalia was hit during a rope deployment, meaning it was stationary and hovering, making it an easy target. The second was downed not too long after, also in slow/hover, though I don't remember if it was a rope deployment or transition to/from forward flight. Helos are extremely vulnerable craft. Even the Apache can only take a few 23mm hits. Small arms are unlikely to cause serious damage to most military helos, though a lucky strike is always possible, especially when the doors are open.

With so many multi-story buildings in Mogadishu, it wouldn't be hard to find a spot to fire a low-trajectory RPG at a helicopter. Most of the rope insertions were from 50-70 feet, it seems.

As for Pino's use of an RPG in close quarters, some artistic allowance can, and sometimes has to, be made for the purpose of story.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Officer_Charon on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 18:01

Super 6-1, piloted by CWO4 Wolcott was struck as it made a low pass near elevated structures, providing a stable fire-support platform for the crew chiefs manning the door guns. Super 6-4, piloted by CWO4 Durant was in a similar patrol pattern, at low altitude and near several elevated structures. There was also, from all accounts of the battle, a HELL of a lot of RPGs being fired upwards. With that much weight of fire, SOMETHING's going to connect.

Outside of Saigon, I don't believe too many helos flew into urban environments in Vietnam.

One can stipulate, then, that it was more the weight of fire, combined with the environment of operation, and mixed with the pilot's flight pattern that resulted in the Mogadishu shoot-downs, rather than any great accuracy (of which the RPG is not exactly well-known for.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by maverick375 on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 19:57

I stand corrected

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Glocks are not the shit. Glocks can fail the same as any other gun. I've seen it personally, and have even heard first-hand accounts of something as basic as a slide-retaining pin snapping, the slide flying off. Get over the obsession and buy what fits your hand, your wallet, and ability.
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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Guest on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 20:55

Did you remember in the movie, Rambo? Rambo used RPG-7.


There is also appeared in Anime (mostly used by antagonists) such as Full Metal Panic!


and When They Cry: Higurashi


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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Lyndist on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 21:24

[EDIT]


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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Officer_Charon on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 21:28

Now THERE, you are not going to have an argument.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Lyndist on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 21:41

[EDIT]


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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Officer_Charon on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 22:19

Marine Corps NCO here. I'm no stranger either, comrade. We are simply having translation problems

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 22:26

Only issues I see here is that the face protection plate is missing from these picts; picts from movies and cartoons. Movies and Cartoons are not real life.

My Bro is an Army Ranger for 20 years, my friend was a military adviser in 'Nam and many years after that and you don't want to know what I was and to some extent- still am.

Heli's and large jets have been shot down by RPGs.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Lyndist on Fri 11 Feb 2011 - 22:47

[EDIT]


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Re: [EDIT]

Post by SPARTAN 119 on Sun 13 Feb 2011 - 19:38

As for the RPG use, I know about the backblast issues, and you are indeed correct, using an RPG in the manner often depicted as in anime, movies, and video games would be fatal. The only rocket launcher that can be used in that manner that I know of is the AT4-CS, described in the Wikipedia excerpt below:

The problem of back blast has been recently solved with the AT4-CS (Confined Space) version, specially designed for urban warfare. This version uses a saltwater countermass in the rear of the launcher to absorb the back blast; the resulting spray captures and dramatically slows down the pressure wave, allowing troops to fire from enclosed areas.

@lyndist wrote:
can i ask you a question:Is the any mine can delay when you step on it?In movie all mine delay when you step on.but i don't see any in VietNam Step on and it blow

I am no expert on this, but as far as I know, there might be a slight delay (most likely of less than as second), for the fuse to make it from the primer to the charge, but a lengthy delay seems unlikely, as it might give the unfortunate victim time to run away. Your description makes the most sense, design-wise.
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Re: [EDIT]

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 13 Feb 2011 - 22:45

@lyndist wrote:OK...i think we can't agree about RPGs can or can't shoot Heli's
We dont agree because you wont accept the fact presented to you of it happening.

@lyndist wrote:But if me...i never useRPGs to shootdow Heli's.it suicide

Stinger and MG can do better
These may be better options but when you are dealing with suicide squads and idiots trying to make a name for themselves in battle, what ever options that are cheap, numerous and available are the ones to be taken first.

@lyndist wrote:can i ask you a question:Is the any mine can delay when you step on it?In movie all mine delay when you step on.but i don't see any in VietNam Step on and it blow
That depends on the design. Anti-personnel mines blow up as soon as pressure is applied to them and only kills the one who stepped on it and injures those around him. Others are more dangerous in having a slow burning internal fuse, in that its activated when stepped on but takes a second or two for you to be in front of it and your troops to be behind it to blow up taking out the whole group.

As a military officer (active or retired) you should know this.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Odon on Sun 13 Feb 2011 - 23:02

I think I recall reading in the book “Blackhawk Down” they said that the Somalis had been taught to evacuate a pit behind where they placed their RPG gunners, so they could fire upwards.

Weapons like the Armbrust avoid this problem by firing a counterweight made up of shredded plastic.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Lyndist on Sun 13 Feb 2011 - 23:07

[EDIT]


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Re: [EDIT]

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 14 Feb 2011 - 1:18


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Re: [EDIT]

Post by kamajii on Wed 23 Feb 2011 - 14:08



According to reports, the helicopter touched down with 26 people on board. While offloading personnel and equipment, an insurgent fired an RPG at the helicopter’s cargo bay and managed to strike the Chinook.

As I can understand, helicopter was hited when touch the ground, it is not flying.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Awinnell on Wed 23 Feb 2011 - 17:10

Wiki has a list of aircraft shot down in Afghanistan ,2008 was a good year for RPG hits on helicopters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_accidents_and_incidents_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan

2008
October 27: A US UH-60 Black Hawk was shot down in Wardak Province, with no fatalities. Taliban forces claim to have used a Rocket-propelled grenade. The 10 soldiers onboard were rescued.

October 21: A United States Navy P-3 Orion reconnaissance and intelligence aircraft overshot the runway at Bagram Air Base while landing. The aircraft caught fire and was destroyed but the only injury to the crew was one broken ankle. The aircraft was from PATWING 5 from Naval Air Station Brunswick and was assigned to CTF-57 in Afghanistan.

September 4: A British Army Air Corps Apache AH1 crashed shortly after takeoff in Helmand province. Both crew members were unhurt.
August 8: United Arab Emirates Air Force C-130 Hercules Overran runway at Bagram Air Base, Kabul, and caught fire. The plane was partially salvaged.

July 2: A US UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter was shot down by RPG and small arms fire south of the Afghan capital in Logar province. The pilots were able to land the aircraft and evacuate everyone on board before it caught fire, another helicopter returned later and destroyed the wreckage with precision fire.

June 25: A US-led coalition forces helicopter crashed in northeastern province of Kunar in Afghanistan, causing "minor injuries" to two soldiers on board.

June 5: A US OH-58 Kiowa crashed at Kandahar Army Airfield, Afghanistan during a test flight killing the maintenance pilot and his crew chief. They were assigned to the 96th Aviation Support Battalion, 101st Combat Aviation Brigade.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 23 Feb 2011 - 17:29

@kamajii wrote:


According to reports, the helicopter touched down with 26 people on board. While offloading personnel and equipment, an insurgent fired an RPG at the helicopter’s cargo bay and managed to strike the Chinook.

As I can understand, helicopter was hited when touch the ground, it is not flying.
Then try:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)

During the first moments of the operation, PFC Todd Blackburn fell while fast-roping from his Black Hawk while it was hovering 70 feet (21 m) above the streets. The cause of him falling from the chopper was never really known. The most logical theory was that he simply slipped when the helicopter was forced to take evasive maneuvers to avoid an incoming RPG fired from a nearby rooftop, although, according to Bowden, video does not show the helicopter moving. Minutes later, one of the Black Hawk helicopters, callsign Super 6-1 piloted by CW3 Cliff "Elvis" Wolcott, was shot down by a rocket propelled grenade. Both pilots of Super 6-1 were killed, and two of the crew chiefs were severely wounded. SSG Daniel Busch (a Delta Force sniper) survived the crash and managed to hold off the militia until he was evacuated by an MH-6 Little Bird helicopter, callsign Star 4-1. While he was defending the downed helicopter, however, he was shot 4 times and later died of his wounds.

and

There was confusion between the ground convoy and the assault team. The assault team and the ground convoy waited for twenty minutes to receive their orders to move out. Both units were under the mistaken impression that they were to be first contacted by the other. During the wait, a second Black Hawk helicopter, callsign Super 6-4 and piloted by CW3 Michael Durant, was also shot down by an RPG.

Both choppers were in the air, flying. This is not the only case of aircraft being shot down by RPGs, though it is one of the few known recorded incidences.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by kamajii on Wed 23 Feb 2011 - 17:39

So... I see only three incident with RPG in ten years range. There is no mentions about exact circumstances of this incidents. IMHO all of this incidents would be occur when helicopter lands or hover on low altitude.
I think helicopter could be down even with grenade in such sutuation. Smile


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Re: [EDIT]

Post by kamajii on Wed 23 Feb 2011 - 17:46

@ElfenMagix wrote:
During the first moments of the operation, PFC Todd Blackburn fell while fast-roping from his Black Hawk while it was hovering 70 feet (21 m) above the streets. ...

@ElfenMagix wrote:
During the wait, a second Black Hawk helicopter, callsign Super 6-4 and piloted by CW3 Michael Durant, was also shot down by an RPG.

I wrote the same things.
BTW, a read about incidents when aicraft was downed by rifle at WW2 and at Vietnam's war. It is only lucky chance and nothing more, I think.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by kamajii on Wed 23 Feb 2011 - 18:02

And there is one thing about topic theme (chap. 68).
IMHO Pinoccio shut from the deck or top of container. Him was covered by some cloak or something. It isn't meaning that RPG nozzle was covered too.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 23 Feb 2011 - 18:24

@kamajii wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:
During the first moments of the operation, PFC Todd Blackburn fell while fast-roping from his Black Hawk while it was hovering 70 feet (21 m) above the streets. ...

@ElfenMagix wrote:
During the wait, a second Black Hawk helicopter, callsign Super 6-4 and piloted by CW3 Michael Durant, was also shot down by an RPG.

I wrote the same things.
BTW, a read about incidents when aicraft was downed by rifle at WW2 and at Vietnam's war. It is only lucky chance and nothing more, I think.

You're reading into this to get what you want to prove.
In the Black Hawk Down Doncumentaries and in the Wiki articles stated above, 1) PFC Todd Blackburn fell while fast-roping because the helicopter started to move to get ouut of harm's way of the RPGs. 2) In "During the Wait", the helicopters were lying in a circular motion known as a 'Wagon Wheel' formation when this second one was hit.

One of my more favories incidences involves a US Solider shooting down a Zero with just his 1911 .45ACP:
http://www.sightm1911.com/1911%20Myth.htm#2d Lt. Owen J. Baggett
The Japanese pilots immediately began strafing the surviving crewmen, apparently killing some of them and grazing Lieutenant Baggett’s arm. The pilot who had hit Baggett circled to finish him off or perhaps only to get a better look at his victim. Baggett pretended to be dead, hoping the Zero pilot would not fire again. In any event, the pilot opened his canopy and approached within feet of Baggett’s chute, nose up and on the verge of a stall. Baggett, enraged by the strafing of his helpless crew mates, raised the .45 automatic concealed against his leg and fired four shots at the open cockpit. The Zero stalled and spun in.

A few months later, Col. Harry Melton, commander of the 311th Fighter Group who had been shot down, passed through the POW camp and told Baggett that a Japanese colonel said the pilot Owen Baggett had fired at had been thrown clear of his plane when it crashed and burned. He was found dead of a single bullet in his head.

Some people claim what such things are impossible, but the impossible does happen from time to time. People do not have to believe it, then again to those morons who say that we never landed on the moon or exploded a nuclear device, I tell them, "The next nuclear test will be at _______. I want you to stand right there and return to report to me what you have seen... If you survive the nuclear fireball!"

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by ChaosKin640 on Wed 23 Feb 2011 - 19:14

My God, how is this conversation still going? NO
It is only lucky chance and nothing more, I think.
Well, that's true. It is extremely unlikely for someone to be able to shoot down an airborne helicopter with an RPG, and I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that fact. But that isn't the issue. The issue being fought over is whether it is at all possible to do, which it obviously is, because it has happened and the proof has been recorded and presented.
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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 23 Feb 2011 - 20:11

The Somali militiamen were using volley fire with their RPGs. Four, five rockets at a go, according to observers. In retrospect, it's downright fortunate (and, from a neutral standpoint, incredible) that they didn't end up shooting down more helis.

The M1911 incident, while astounding, couldn't have involved a Zero. No Zeroes were involved in the air war over Burma - Burma was a Japanese Army show, and Zeroes were strictly Navy planes. It was probably a Nakajima Ki-43, an Army plane that very closely resembled the Zero and was often mistaken for it.

Yeah, yeah, nitpicker, nerd, whatever.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Lyndist on Wed 23 Feb 2011 - 22:08

[EDIT]


Last edited by Lyndist on Thu 22 Sep 2016 - 22:07; edited 1 time in total

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by funkmachine on Thu 3 Mar 2011 - 14:48

yes a RPG 7 can down a chop helicopter, but thay have sights built for land, are ranged for 500m(self detonates at 920m or 4.5-seconds),it responds counter-intuitively to crosswinds,it fly in to the wind.
all in all it is a old weapon now many use to hit light armored vehicles.

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by Awinnell on Thu 3 Mar 2011 - 15:24



the only anti tank weapon that could be fired under that cloak safely


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Re: [EDIT]

Post by SSgtRobertMorris on Sat 23 Apr 2011 - 13:45

@maverick375 wrote:I stand corrected
You wear a backbrace?


(That's a Gunny Soto-ism)

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by TTIO on Sat 23 Apr 2011 - 15:35

Should point out, if you agree that there is any chance whatsoever of a helicopter being shot down by an RPG (be it hovering, luck, pilot error, whatever), that means that at some point, it will even if it hasn't already (which it's been shown, it has happened).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

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Re: [EDIT]

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 23 Apr 2011 - 22:08

@TTIO wrote:Should point out, if you agree that there is any chance whatsoever of a helicopter being shot down by an RPG (be it hovering, luck, pilot error, whatever), that means that at some point, it will even if it hasn't already (which it's been shown, it has happened).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers
Now
is something I have not touched in a very long time.


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Re: [EDIT]

Post by TTIO on Sun 24 Apr 2011 - 4:23


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Re: [EDIT]

Post by mysterybad on Sat 20 Jul 2013 - 1:54


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Re: [EDIT]

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