Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 11 Sep 2008 - 19:59

Buon Giorno.

It is unfortunate that Triad stopped doing the show (whether it was in part because of it being licensed or that they just didn't enjoy the material) and it is nice that someone else has picked it up.

Fortunately, thanks to the folks doing the scanlations (which is what clued me into this site), I found that the anime did a decent job of following the manga, so even with my poor command of spoken Japanese, I was able to follow the raws of episodes 8-13 pretty well.

I was a big fan of the original anime series, which is why I started following ~ Il Teatrino ~ once it was fansubbed. Not as big a fan of the animation style for this series and I do admit some of the characters kind of creep me out in how they act - especially Rico. I understand she's conditioned to respond the way she does, but between her large eyes and cheerful disposition as she goes around taking people out... sweat

Henrietta was also my favorite from the original series and she does not get nearly as much "air time" in ~ Il Teatrino ~. On the manga side, I really like Petrushka (it's the Russian blood in me, I'm sure), but I really liked Triela's arc in Volume 10.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Guest on Tue 2 Dec 2008 - 22:17

I don't really like to wait for so long... It has been, what, 4 months and 21 days since the last release? All the torrents gone cold too. I say since some of the people here scanlates the manga, let's try doing the anime ourselves... though I'm really a novice at those aspects.

I once heard about a guy who took up scanlating a manga series all by himself, plus the "minor" help of others, when the scanlation group who was supposed to be the one doing it started bickering among themselves. That guy's long gone now but many really admired him. Well waiting for the NA release would be a legal option but, IMHO, the amount they sell them is really, um...., high, I think?

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 2 Dec 2008 - 22:21

You could always save up on money.

Oski, where the hell are you?

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 2 Dec 2008 - 22:36

Funimation will be releasing - Il Teatrino - as a complete box set sometime in 2009, so those in DVD Region 1 will have the whole shebang.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 2 Dec 2008 - 22:42

ITS ABOUT TIME!!!

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Guest on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 12:45

It would be nicer if we knew when in 2009 it was going to be released. I can't find anything that gives specific information other than it is supposed to be released in 2009.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 22:14

Marketting rules usually says Jan/Feb (doubtful), April/May (end of school), Aug/Sept (end of summer) or Nov/Dec (Xmas).

I would say April/May.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Guest on Thu 4 Dec 2008 - 0:16

2009... If you tried to follow the common pattern I agree with the April/May. But it's still doubtful...

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Guest on Thu 4 Dec 2008 - 9:26

ElfenMagix wrote:Marketting rules usually says Jan/Feb (doubtful), April/May (end of school), Aug/Sept (end of summer) or Nov/Dec (Xmas).

I would say April/May.

If it was coming out in January or February, then amazon.com would have it up for pre-ship sale now. Hopefully, it'll be out sooner rather than later.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Guest on Sun 7 Dec 2008 - 23:51

About my post of fansubbing Il Teatrino: Is there anyone willing? Or you just wait for the DVD to come out?

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by LoC978 on Mon 8 Dec 2008 - 3:07

*is content to wait for the DVDs*

as has been mentioned before by others, I know the manga well enough that I could follow the story pretty easily in Japanese (even though I barely know more words in Japanese than an average American Otaku. I am better at pronunciation, though).

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 8 Dec 2008 - 5:21

LoC978 wrote:*is content to wait for the DVDs*

as has been mentioned before by others, I know the manga well enough that I could follow the story pretty easily in Japanese...
Same here. And Iím really looking forward to see whether or not they will use the same voice actors. It would awesome if they did.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Triela on Mon 8 Dec 2008 - 13:09

Danjo3 wrote:
LoC978 wrote:*is content to wait for the DVDs*

as has been mentioned before by others, I know the manga well enough that I could follow the story pretty easily in Japanese...
Same here. And Iím really looking forward to see whether or not they will use the same voice actors. It would awesome if they did.

Here here!

I think Gunslinger Girl has one of the best dubs I have ever heard!

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Ggultra2764 on Mon 8 Dec 2008 - 14:52

I was fortunate enough to find fansubs (albeit very crappy ones) of the leftover episodes Triad failed to do. Even with the subpar animation, the storyline for Il Teatrino is enough for me to take interest in buying the series when it comes out next year.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Guest on Mon 8 Dec 2008 - 19:28

Ah I give up! It really is a pain to find a willing team.
So when will it be released again? Still can't find a proper release date here....

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Triela on Mon 8 Dec 2008 - 21:17

djmaca wrote:Ah I give up! It really is a pain to find a willing team.
So when will it be released again? Still can't find a proper release date here....

Funimation just says 2009. It's going to be realised in a boxed set, which is really nice! I hope they do the OVA's as well.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by TTIO on Tue 9 Dec 2008 - 12:25

Triela wrote:I think Gunslinger Girl has one of the best dubs I have ever heard!


Personally, I hate the dub. The only one that I have which I've not been able to get through (though I don't have very many series). The voices just don't fit the girls at all, imo...

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by LoC978 on Tue 9 Dec 2008 - 13:55

it's a tradeoff for me... I dislike the girls' voices in the english dub because they are voiced by, (and in most cases sound like) grown women. It's a little disconcerting.
on the other hand, in the original Japanese, the male characters are voiced by men who sound entirely too gentle and forgiving to be counterterrorist agents, much less assassins... sans Jean and Hillshire. Giuseppe's voice is doubly irritating...

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by TTIO on Tue 9 Dec 2008 - 17:51

I agree entirely about the girls but as for the handlers... They sound ok to me, but that may be because I watched it before I read it (in others this normally seems to be the case, eg. in trigun I can't stand some of the voices purely because they don't fit the character in my mind)

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by LoC978 on Tue 9 Dec 2008 - 18:40

that could be it... I just know a lot of people who have been 'through hell and back' and none of them are 'soft'... if that makes any sense.
...but nearly all of the male Japanese voices in GSG sound incredibly soft to me. Not the kind of people who have even experienced basic training in a military force... much less counterterrorist operatives who have been at it a few years.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Ghostfriendly on Mon 16 Feb 2009 - 20:51

I kind of see what you mean. I understand that having a tough and unpersonable image doesn't mean you can't be a kind person, but I see operatives like Jose and Marco as having a basically kind original personality, picking up conviction and combat skills in their careers, and then having a really terrible experience that gave their base personality a darker edge.

Plus, mightn't counterterrorist agents be people who could put up a front of being visibly pleasant and normal? If their real personality is actually pleasant, but their pleasant manner is false, things get interesting...
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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by GP on Mon 16 Feb 2009 - 21:30

Well now that i've finished watching the 2nd series subbed, that just leaves the OVA ep I suppose.

Also anyone know if there's any news of a 3rd series in the works?

Dunno what they'd cover with regards to the manga though but who knows.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Triela on Mon 16 Feb 2009 - 23:46

GP wrote:
Dunno what they'd cover with regards to the manga though but who knows.

What do you think?

*cough* Petrushka *throws up* I won't be watching if it's all about her.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 16 Feb 2009 - 23:57

I dont know...
If Yu made it into a 3D animation where Petrushka is dancing about in her room in her tank top and bikini panties, singing "I'm too sexy for my Gun"... every GsG fanboy will pounce on that DVD!

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 17 Feb 2009 - 0:05

You reckon everyone likes Petra, then?

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 17 Feb 2009 - 0:26

Its not that everyone likes or dislikes Petra, its how they like her.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Triela on Tue 17 Feb 2009 - 1:52

Well if guys want that they should go look for another anime like that. (There are TONS out there, with girls a lot prettier than Petrushka) I really can't imagine watching Gunslinger Girl and watching THAT this dancing around and making out with her handler.

Maybe they'll put in some episodes where it's about the other girls, that's not in the manga. You know to satisfy 99.9% of the GSG fans who hate her. XD

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Piero on Tue 17 Feb 2009 - 2:38

I'm pretty sure the portion of the fanbase that hates Petra is considerably less then 99.9%. Speaking as someone who didn't like the shift in direction the series underwent but whom also doesn't rabidly hate the character, I don't think she's just a fan service vehicle and I think she has more character depth then a lot of her detractors give her credit for. I also sort of doubt that she's responsible for singlehandedly killing the official English releases of the GSG manga. After all, if movies can be used as an indicator, if a movie in a popular series is bad, isn't is usually the next movie in the series that tends to suffers more for it financially?

Please don't take this personally, it's really directed at a far broader group then just you, but it kind of bugs me that people who hate Petra tend to treat their opinions on her as facts rather then opinions.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by GP on Tue 17 Feb 2009 - 7:53

I don't hate Petra, I find the introduction of her character interesting. Till now we've had younger girls who just follow orders and don't ask questions (well, Triela sticks out, but she's it) But seeing how her character is a bit more "normal" with her emotions and the way she thinks is a nice refresher.

Also the fact she feels love normally added a new twist to things. It got all the doctors surprised that's for sure.

The part with her and Claus was also good, seeing her open up more and so on.

But Petra aside I mean, story wise, I figured a s3 could introduce Petra and then end on a sad note with Angie's exit.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 17 Feb 2009 - 12:36

I like Petrushka because she does things other then just shoot people.

She and Rico are also the only Gunslinger Girls we have a solid pre-history on and Rico's is pretty basic - "I lived my life in a hospital bed".

I imagine different parts of the fanbase dislike Petrushka for different reasons. Off the top of my head I can think of three.


  1. Some are likely upset Yu Aida spent almost an entire volume of the manga fleshing her out as a character with a full pre-history and early days at the SWA while the rest of the characters were literally just dropped into the story. So if they're a fan of Triela or Claes or Henrietta or Beatrice, they don't know jack about their character, but this newcomer gets the full treatment and that's not fair in their mind.
  2. Some believe Gunslinger Girl is not a "lolicon show" and they feel she's "fan service" because of the panty shots and non-chaste kisses which should not be present.
  3. Some believe Gunslinger Girl is a "lolicon show" and an older girl has no business being in such a show, especially when she's the one given the the panty shots and non-chaste kisses and not the younger girls.



I expect the significant plurality of the GSG fanbase support Triela. So a not-insignificant part of the GSG fanbase might see Petrushka as a direct threat to Triela as the "senior" cyborg and major focus of the story (which she had been up until Petrushka's introduction). I would not be surprised if making Volume 10 a Triela-centric volume was in part to try and assuage that part of the fanbase after spending a volume on Petrushka and a volume on Angelica.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by GP on Tue 17 Feb 2009 - 13:24

Probably, but I don't think Petra threatens Triela at all really. † †*shrug* † †She just brings something new to the table. ††

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Piero on Tue 17 Feb 2009 - 13:36

It's possible that Yu shifted focus due to the fans, but I've had a theory of my own on why he's handled things the way he has. Basically, GSG is a long running series, and I think he was getting a little tired of things after five volumes. So he decided to try something different, which is where we got Petra and Allesandro. He concentrated heavily on them for a while, then having had a break from the older characters for a bit he started focusing on them again. I think about the only major weakness in that theory is that a couple of the older GSG characters actually featured very prominently in Volume Seven. Laughing

Seriously though, am I the only person who has thought that Yu's not so much reacting to fan input (I'm doubtful that he even has a very clear idea of what the North American fanbase thinks) but was just giving extra attention to Petra because she was new and has now more or less settled into putting her into a rotation along with the other characters?

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 17 Feb 2009 - 18:19

Piero: firmly grounded in reality.

Perhaps a little too firmly. Razz

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by GP on Tue 17 Feb 2009 - 18:21

I agree with you, he wanted to try something new and did Petra. †Like I've said, the way I see her is more "human" than the rest (though Triela is as well as we've seen from her outbursts at Hillshire and running off.) ††

Bringing in Petra and her handler and the new way they do things, unlike the others who just rush in guns blazing, refreshes the series. † And now that they're set into their roles we're back to the other girls as well. † I don't think he's tired of the originals, he just wanted/needed to bring in new blood so others don't tired of it and you don't fall into this repeating cycle.

Also, if it wasn't for Allesandro we'd never see what an older Triela would probably look like, I have to give thanks to that alone right there.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 18 Feb 2009 - 4:03

ElfenMagix wrote:If Yu made it into a 3D animation where Petrushka is dancing about in her room in her tank top and bikini panties, singing "I'm too sexy for my Gun"... every GsG fanboy will pounce on that DVD!
:lol!: Now thatís something I could co-sign to.

I think another problem (one of many) concerning Petra/Sandro is how fast everything happened. The two didnít go through the initial training and bonding period that the other fratelloís did Ė Petra was fully trained right out of the starting gate. It makes you feel like she didnít pay her dues. And in no time flat, sheís madly in love with Sandro, and the guyís a total asshole who did nothing to earn her love. The two characters are so shallow, and the story handled so badly, that itís next to impossible to care about them.

It really makes you think that Petra was Yuís pet project and come hell or high water, he was going to make people like her. It doesnít take a genius to know that forcing an already unpopular character on people will only make matters worse.

In all honesty, if Petra is killed off in the very next chapter, I would have no problem with it.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Whatface on Wed 18 Feb 2009 - 7:31

Have no problem with it?

I think a few of us would love it if Petra got killed off in the next chapter.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 18 Feb 2009 - 10:41

Whatface wrote:
I think a few of us would love it if Petra got killed off in the next chapter.
Maybe she could take her bitchy teenager buddies with her. Laughing

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Ggultra2764 on Wed 18 Feb 2009 - 12:32

Whatface wrote:I think a few of us would love it if Petra got killed off in the next chapter.

Just give Pandania the word and they'll do it no questions asked. just whistlin'

Considering how the two have been reduced in role in recent chapters, I'd have no qualms or sympathy for seeing the two get killed off so long as their deaths don't get too much focus and Yu just moves on from there.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Triela on Wed 18 Feb 2009 - 12:39

Danjo3 wrote:
I think another problem (one of many) concerning Petra/Sandro is how fast everything happened. The two didnít go through the initial training and bonding period that the other fratelloís did Ė Petra was fully trained right out of the starting gate. It makes you feel like she didnít pay her dues. And in no time flat, sheís madly in love with Sandro, and the guyís a total asshole who did nothing to earn her love. The two characters are so shallow, and the story handled so badly, that itís next to impossible to care about them.

It really makes you think that Petra was Yuís pet project and come hell or high water, he was going to make people like her. It doesnít take a genius to know that forcing an already unpopular character on people will only make matters worse.

In all honesty, if Petra is killed off in the very next chapter, I would have no problem with it.

Wow. Very well said Danjo! Very Happy

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 18 Feb 2009 - 12:49

Danjo3 wrote:I think another problem (one of many) concerning Petra/Sandro is how fast everything happened. The two didnít go through the initial training and bonding period that the other fratelloís did Ė Petra was fully trained right out of the starting gate.

I'd argue Petrushka and Alessandro were the one fratello we did see train and bond. The only other one we have seen was Angelica and Marco, and even that was more through a selection of "flashbacks".

The Henrietta-Giuseppe, Rico-Jean, Triela-Hillshire and Beatrice-Bernardo fratelli were all introduced to us as complete, functional units in the manga. The manga didn't really cover Claes-Raballo's bonding and training except in a handful of panels and we know less about that fratello then we do any other except Beatrice-Bernardo.

Danjo3 wrote:And in no time flat, sheís madly in love with Sandro, and the guyís a total asshole who did nothing to earn her love.

We should remember that Alessandro is trained to be a lover. His role in SWA Public Safety was to quickly seduce young women with PRF ties in order to gain information from them. Even if Petrushka was not programmed to love him, I can't see it being very hard for Alessandro - consciously or subconsciously - seducing Petrushka in a very short period of time (humans are, by an large, creatures of habit and he admits he finds her "fascinating"). Especially since she started as a "blank slate" and he is the only man in her life and he is very "hands on" in his training.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Piero on Wed 18 Feb 2009 - 14:09

They do take time to form a bond, actually. As for the training, I would guess Yu didn't deem it that important to Petra's story and came up with an explanation that allowed him to skip it. Besides, if he hadn't skipped it, wouldn't you people probably be complaining about him spending that much more time on the character?

As for Alessandro, I think Yu may have deliberately tried to make a character that the audience would have mixed feelings about. The guy initially comes across as being like a kid with a new toy who wants to find out just what he can make it do. He also had that weird liking for looking down on people in the square below his family's home as a kid (I believe it's stated that aside from finding it fun to guess where they were from, he found it made him feel superior). On the other hand, his recruitment by Italian intelligence made it seem like he was being preyed upon by someone (perhaps in part because he was still quite young when it happened). And then we find out that the person who recruited him was herself pretty messed up...

Alessandro viewed a lot of the things he did in the field with Petra as just part of the job, I think. He may have made a bit of a mistake by expecting her to do the same.

Personally, if Yu just killed Petra and Alessandro off next chapter, I might not be that sad, but I would view it as case of bad writing and a huge waste. I think the characters have been too well established to just be treated like easily disposable throwaways.

It really makes you think that Petra was Yuís pet project and come hell or high water, he was going to make people like her. It doesnít take a genius to know that forcing an already unpopular character on people will only make matters worse.

I think I more or less stated my opinion on this last page. I've often thought that Yu just wanted a bit of a break from the characters he'd been working for several years and wanted to try something new and different for a while. And now that he's played around with them for a while, he's more or less put them into rotation with the older characters as far as focus is concerned.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 18 Feb 2009 - 16:19

Kiskaloo wrote:I'd argue Petrushka and Alessandro were the one fratello we did see train and bond.
You must have seen something I didnít then. In vol.6 it looks to me like they went on a mission on the same day she woke up.

As far as bonding, I saw none of that. Unless you count groping as bonding.
Kiskaloo wrote:We should remember that Alessandro is trained to be a lover. His role in SWA Public Safety was to quickly seduce young women with PRF ties in order to gain information from them.

Thatís all well and good, but I still donít think it gives him the green light to molest his cyborg. Heís blatantly abusing his position of authority.
Piero wrote:The guy initially comes across as being like a kid with a new toy who wants to find out just what he can make it do.
Thank you! I couldnít have said it better myself.
Piero wrote:Personally, if Yu just killed Petra and Alessandro off next chapter, I might not be that sad, but I would view it as case of bad writing and a huge waste.
Personally, I think he would score some major points with his fan base. It would be like an apology for a big time screw up.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 18 Feb 2009 - 17:21

Danjo3 wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:We should remember that Alessandro is trained to be a lover. His role in SWA Public Safety was to quickly seduce young women with PRF ties in order to gain information from them.

Thatís all well and good, but I still donít think it gives him the green light to molest his cyborg. Heís blatantly abusing his position of authority.

Well Lorenzo has stated that they don't much care how the handlers treat their cyborgs as long as they complete the mission. And when Petrushka admitted under examination that she loved Alessandro, Doctor Belesario not only didn't care, he was in fact interested in seeing how such a relationship would play out over time.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by GP on Wed 18 Feb 2009 - 19:20

Yeah, they don't care as long as you do your job. The fact she loves him normally and not through heavy conditioning is even better really.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Piero on Wed 18 Feb 2009 - 19:38

You must have seen something I didnít then. In vol.6 it looks to me like they went on a mission on the same day she woke up.

Actually, that was intended to be training. Allesandro was teaching trying to teach her how to read and analyze people. It just ended up turning into something real because they picked up on an actual enemy during said training.

What actually goes to show that in a way, Yu does show the two training -just not in the traditional shooting skills way.

Thatís all well and good, but I still donít think it gives him the green light to molest his cyborg. Heís blatantly abusing his position of authority.

Allesandro did act like a kid who wanted to find out what his new toy would do around Petra, but IMO he has never treated her as a sex toy. I know that's a popular interpretation in fanon, but it's not really supported by canon evidence.

Allesandro has done morally questionable things, but that goes for basically everyone who has worked with the GSGs, including characters like Hillshire. A big part of Allesandro's character is basically that he believes bad people like him are necessary to protect others from people who are even worse.

Frankly speaking, I think Yu was aiming to make a character who was interesting moreso then a character who would be immediately likeable when he made Allesandro, though he seems to have been aiming to make him a bit more sympathetic with the Lady Rosso storyline. He may have tried to make a character who was more likeable with Petra, as she's more of an idealist, but that could also simply have been because he thought pairing an idealist with someone more cynical would be interesting.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Danjo3 on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 3:20

Kiskaloo wrote:Well Lorenzo has stated that they don't much care how the handlers treat their cyborgs as long as they complete the mission. And when Petrushka admitted under examination that she loved Alessandro, Doctor Belesario not only didn't care, he was in fact interested in seeing how such a relationship would play out over time.
If weíre going by that logic, then I guess itís OK for all of the other handlers (including Jose) to start molesting their girls. I donít know about you, but thatís not why Iím a GSG fan. Henrietta and Triela are both in love with their handlers, but we know theyíre safe because Jose and Hillshire are men of moral fiber, not predators like Sandro. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that in the future Triela will start to push herself on Victor, but you can bet he wonít cave in to her advances. Sandro on the other hand was diving in before he even took off her factory sticker. (and spare me the, ďIt was just training.Ē line Ė I ainít buying it)

Some people like to believe that Sandro/Petra is a fresh new story idea, but itís not Ė its fan service. Plain and simple. Iím guessing that handler on cyborg action is something that Yu has been itching to do, but was too nervous to use the younger girls, so he created an older sex kitten for the job. Their whole story centers on their sexual relationship. If it werenít for that, they would be about as interesting as Claesí spice garden.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Piero on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 4:09

Danjo -well, you'll believe what you want to believe, I guess. Personally however, I think that a significant amount of the available evidence runs counter to your opinion on the subject.

I won't deny that Yu has used Petra for fan service, because that would be willfully ignoring the facts. I also think however that claiming that is all Allesandro and Petra are nothing but fanservice is a case of willfully ignoring available evidence, because IMO there is clearly a lot more to them then that. Personally, I do find them interesting outside of the fan service aspect, and I also think that if they were really meant to be merely fan service characters then they would be portrayed very differently then they have been. As in, a lot more of the time they appear in the manga would be spent on fan service. For a pair of characters whose sole purpose is to provide fan service, they sure seem to spend a lot of time doing other things.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Danjo3 on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 4:49

I guarantee you that if it were not for the fan service aspect of Petraís character, Yu never would have created her.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by GP on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 7:22

I looked at it as bringing in an older character/gsg. And the fanservice we've seen isn't much to be honest. I've read manga with way more "fanservice". It's pretty bland actually.

I don't think fanservice alone was the target here.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Tommygunner70 on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 9:17

Danjo3 wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:I'd argue Petrushka and Alessandro were the one fratello we did see train and bond.
You must have seen something I didnít then. In vol.6 it looks to me like they went on a mission on the same day she woke up. As far as bonding, I saw none of that. Unless you count groping as bonding.

Hey I saw that, your sights must be shallow Danjo.
Taking her out into the public and point things out strike me as Training.
Training is good, but you can only do so much in the facility. there is no better training then Field training when its about judging a person by appearance and behavior. This just so happens to be 'Sandro's Specialty, which he is teaching Petra.

for the bonding part, getting Petra to take it easy and act like a lover at the said train station I consider bonding too. I mean, how can you act like a love to some one just as a cover without having any sort of bond to your partner?

On a side note though, I do believe that Petra too "Act like a lover" to a further then needed stage. that, and the car scene made that final. but as soon as the guy that Sandro needed to fool was gone, he quit.

In my opinion, that tells me that Sandro doesn't treat her like a toy, because he could have kept molesting her at his leisure.


Danjo3 wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:We should remember that Alessandro is trained to be a lover. His role in SWA Public Safety was to quickly seduce young women with PRF ties in order to gain information from them.

Thatís all well and good, but I still donít think it gives him the green light to molest his cyborg. Heís blatantly abusing his position of authority.

Hmm...
Now I know that I should be the one dictating word of the English Language, but I though Molesting someone meant that you were actively abusing another persons Private regions with out their consent or approval. from the looks of it, Petra doesn't mind it all that much.

Also, you got to realize that the Cyborgs are Condittioned to love. which adds to Petra not resisting to such acts. If you say no to the person you are in love with to do such acts, then you will have to get yourself checked over in my opinion. the only reason to say no is that you think its too early in the relationship to do such things.

Danjo3 wrote:
Personally, I think he would score some major points with his fan base. It would be like an apology for a big time screw up.

Petra and Sandro's situation scores points we me already.

You saw Elsa, she really loved her handler, though she never got her love returned to her.
then you have Etta, loves Jose. Jose returns kindness, and he spoils her.

now we have Petro who also loves her handler. but Sandro is the first handler who actually returns her love with love.

I am starting to suspect that in the end when Petra dies, Sandro will be devastated. which adds to the Drama and Sadness that GSG Revolves around.
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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Danjo3 on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 11:49

Tommygunner70 wrote:for the bonding part, getting Petra to take it easy and act like a lover at the said train station I consider bonding too. I mean, how can you act like a love to some one just as a cover without having any sort of bond to your partner?
You donít have to have any feelings at all for someone to do that kind of work Tommy. You could even hate that person and still do it well. Then again, you could just be looking for and excuse to grope your partner.
Tommygunner70 wrote:Hmm...
Now I know that I should be the one dictating word of the English Language, but I though Molesting someone meant that you were actively abusing another persons Private regions with out their consent or approval.
It comes in all shapes and forms Tommy. Hell, you can even verbally molest someone. And the fact that Petra is willing doesnít make it right. Would you say the same about Triela or Elsa? Henrietta? Probably not.

At least I hope notÖ

Tommygunner70 wrote:now we have Petro who also loves her handler. but Sandro is the first handler who actually returns her love with love.
I think youíre wrong when you say Sandro is returning her love. Lust maybe, but not love. OK, so maybe he likes her, but thatís about it. As we all know, when it comes to Sandro, loves go nothing to do with scoring.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Triela on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 13:13

Danjo3 wrote:
Tommygunner70 wrote:now we have Petro who also loves her handler. but Sandro is the first handler who actually returns her love with love.
I think youíre wrong when you say Sandro is returning her love. Lust maybe, but not love. OK, so maybe he likes her, but thatís about it. As we all know, when it comes to Sandro, loves go nothing to do with scoring.

Right. You have to take into account that Sando really isn't a nice person. Not that he's just nasty, like Jean, but he's a (for lack of a better word) bum. He takes advantage of his cyborg when he KNOWS that she's conditioned and it's just the way he speaks and acts that make him a bad person. That's part of the reason why I hate Petrushka so much.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 13:32

Danjo3 wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:Well Lorenzo has stated that they don't much care how the handlers treat their cyborgs as long as they complete the mission. And when Petrushka admitted under examination that she loved Alessandro, Doctor Belesario not only didn't care, he was in fact interested in seeing how such a relationship would play out over time.
If weíre going by that logic, then I guess itís OK for all of the other handlers (including Jose) to start molesting their girls. I donít know about you, but thatís not why Iím a GSG fan. Henrietta and Triela are both in love with their handlers, but we know theyíre safe because Jose and Hillshire are men of moral fiber, not predators like Sandro. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that in the future Triela will start to push herself on Victor, but you can bet he wonít cave in to her advances. Sandro on the other hand was diving in before he even took off her factory sticker. (and spare me the, ďIt was just training.Ē line Ė I ainít buying it)

I hope you checked your parachute before you took that leap of logic. Wink

First off, to my knowledge, all we have seen is Alessandro kissing Petrushka at the end of Volume 9. And it looks like he did it with her consent, based on the image of them kissing Yu Aida drew and the fact she was "smiling dumbly" in happiness when she went back to her dorm afterward.

Compare that to Triela at the end of Volume 10. The picture Yu Aida drew was Hillshire being unconscious and she's in his lap with her arms around him. And if we go by the cover Yu Aida drew for Volume 10 (which I really don't like), she's effectively throwing herself on him.

Which of those two strikes you more as a "predatory" action?



I know many in the fanbase are of the opinion that Alessandro and Petrushka are in a sexual relationship, but we have been shown nothing that even implies such a thing. You have often commented on how Gunslinger Girl fan fiction writers are "horny bastards who want to vicariously have sex with a Gunslinger Girl through their fiction (be it through original characters or their handlers)", but it seems that Gunslinger Girl readers are guilty of the same (though in this case through the handlers only).

I agree that Giuseppe will not engage in sexual relations with Henrietta. But then, I don't think Henrietta is interested in having sexual relations with Giuseppe. Heck, depending on the damage to her reproductive system beyond what we know (her missing uterus), it might very well not be possible to have sexual relations with Henrietta. Based on her actions I have seen, I am of the opinion that what Henrietta wants is physical contact - hold her hand, hug her, let her lean against you.

As for Triela and Hillshire, her own emotions are her worst enemy. Unlike Henrietta, who knows exactly what she wants from Giuseppe, Triela doesn't. And Hillshire is living with the ghost of Rachelle Belleut and the guilt of his promise to her about Triela. And Triela has body of a 13-14 year old girl which likely has an effect on Hillshire, especially considering what he saw done sexually to 13-14 year old girls in the Amsterdam snuff films. Also, Western society looks dimly on a man in his late thirties having sexual relations on a girl in her early teens even if the laws of that society consider that age reasonable for consent. Triela may be mentally/chronologically 17-19 and therefore mentally capable of understanding and consenting to sexual relations with Hillshire, but other people don't know that. They would see a 13-year old hanging off a near-40 year old man and that's going to draw attention two operatives don't need.



Some people like to believe that Sandro/Petra is a fresh new story idea, but itís not Ė its fan service. Plain and simple.

"Fan service" has been part of the Gunslinger Girl manga since the cover of the first chapter where you get that tiny glimpse of Henrietta's panties as she sits on the steps. Then we see Henrietta in lingerie being operated on in Chapter 1. Rico in a maid outfit in Chapter 2. Triela in lingerie is the cover for Chapter 3. We've seen panty shots of Henrietta in action scenes. Triela has gone from wearing men's suits to short skirts, tight sweaters and leather boots. Claes wears nothing but short skirts and tight sweaters.


Iím guessing that handler on cyborg action is something that Yu has been itching to do, but was too nervous to use the younger girls, so he created an older sex kitten for the job.

This whole thing started as a sexually-explicit doujin. Yu Aida tamed it down to make it "acceptable" for mainstream publication, but the Japanese market defines "mainstream" in a way that many Western societies would consider somewhat "extreme".

And he certainly feels comfortable in having Triela physically express her love for Hillshire in a passionate way. Petrushka didn't need to exist for Volume 10 to either be written or to have the impact the fanbase feels it did. And that fanbase cheered like madmen when Triela hops into Hillshire's lap and lays a passionate kiss on him yet we all recoil in horror when Alessandro gently takes Petrushka's chin in his hand and slowly moves to kiss her...


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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 13:46

Triela wrote:Right. You have to take into account that Sando really isn't a nice person. Not that he's just nasty, like Jean, but he's a (for lack of a better word) bum. He takes advantage of his cyborg when he KNOWS that she's conditioned and it's just the way he speaks and acts that make him a bad person. That's part of the reason why I hate Petrushka so much.

Alessandro is a professional spy and in the performance of those duties, he is also a professional gigolo. And yet, the women he sleeps with have to be receptive to a short-term relationship as well. So I suppose that makes them "mean", too?

Petrushka was not conditioned to love Alessandro. She was conditioned only to be loyal to him. Based on what I have read, I am of the opinion that the imposition of love on the cyborgs for their handlers to try and reinforce their loyalty to the handlers caused too many problems and the decision was made to not include this in the conditioning for the new generation of girls.

It is possible Elizabetta had an innate promiscuous nature which is why Petrushka was immediately receptive to Alessandro and viewed all of his motives as sexually-influenced. However, we didn't see that in her back-story and I would expect it's a bit hard to perform ballet while six-months pregnant. As no birth control system is fool-proof and Elizabetta's overriding dream was to be a ballerina, I cannot see her risking getting knocked-up, even with the immediate and open access to abortion the Russian Federation offers.

Now, Petrushka's past was accidentally wiped during her hypnotherapy. She essentially only knows what was programmed into her by the medical staff. So maybe that is what people find so upsetting (or enticing?) - the opinion/view/feeling that Petrushka has no idea about physical intimacy or love so she really is just a "living love doll" for Alessandro to do with as he wishes.

Personally, I don't agree with such an opinion/view/feeling, myself (should it exist within the fanbase).


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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Piero on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 13:50

Danjo3 wrote:I guarantee you that if it were not for the fan service aspect of Petraís character, Yu never would have created her.

Depends on whether he first started out to create a character with some depth, then added the fan service in, or started by creating a fan service character and added depth in. Frankly, I kind of doubt that either of us is qualified to make a judgement call on that, and it hardly matters too much anyway, since the end result is a character that does, as a matter of fact, have depth.

Also, on the point of Allesandro molesting Petra (and Tommy's opinion about love between the two for that matter), if anything until recently he's been pretty disinterested in her as a member of the opposite sex. No, seriously. I've been getting the impression looking back on some of the material that he really only cared about that aspect as it related to how she could be used in the field.

Hell, for that matter, I don't think she interested him much as a member of the opposite sex or even as a person initially. She was just a fancy new tool that he'd been given. And, IMO, I think she got him to interest her as a person first. He seems to find her behaviour rather fascinating, actually.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 15:57

Danjo3 wrote:I think youíre wrong when you say Sandro is returning her love. Lust maybe, but not love. OK, so maybe he likes her, but thatís about it. As we all know, when it comes to Sandro, loves go nothing to do with scoring.
QFT

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by LoC978 on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 17:05

*raises a hand*
I'll be the first to admit, my dislike for Petrushka lies in the changes she brings to the series.

-Her backstory.
Instead of a girl stuck on the business end of life-ending tragedy, we have a teenager too weak to cope with having a prosthetic foot for the rest of her life. I realize in her case that's the equivalent of a guitarist losing a hand or a singer suffering throat damage, but... suicide? Sorry for being a callous bastard, but that just strikes me as chlorine in the gene pool.

-fanservice.
Now I know, kisk, this series has always had more than a little loli fanservice floating around in it... and those of us who aren't into viewing little girls as sex objects just ignore it or joke about the people who actually get off on it... but I guess with Petrushka I just took it personally because now I actually find one of the cyborgs attractive... and that makes me feel all kinds of dirty. Thing is... where, as her handler, I would recoil from anything beyond completely chaste physical affection from her... Alessandro moves in for a kiss the first time the chemistry between them suits him.

and that brings us to what I really dislike about this new fratello.
Alessandro.
Somethin' about this guy just rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps it's his lack of self control (or his lack of feeling he needs any). In any case, his attitude is that of an abuser. He's all charm on the surface, all manipulation underneath.
He reminds me of some old quote I can't identify... something said by an old-fashioned military guy along the lines of "As necessary as our spies are, I can't bring myself to not hate 'em. They're those guys you grew up with who you always knew didn't have a shred of decency in 'em. If they weren't double agents, they'd be coked up used car salesmen."
And for the record, what Danjo sees as 'Sandro's view of sex is pretty close to my own... I don't believe Alessandro is actually interested in 'scoring' as it were. As has been noted, he's a professional gigolo. He can always lie, cheat, and steal his way into a woman's bed if he's feeling all lonely, pathetic and emo... but those are the lines I won't cross for sex. Therein lies my biggest problem with him. He's trained to be completely amoral about the whole thing. To me, consent based on lies is a minor step away from rape, so Alessandro is only a minor step away from a rapist.
...
..
.
So yeah, my problems with them are all personal. It all stems from a feeling that they don't deserve to be in Section 2. I think most people in this fanbase who hate 'em are much the same, whether they want to admit it or not.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by Triela on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 17:16

I don't really have anything to add LoC. That's a perfect way to describe how I feel towards those two.

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Re: Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Post by GP on Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 18:57

I think Alessandro does infact love Petra. Some say lust, but that whole flashback arc about his past and why he "didn't want a redhead" shows something different imo.

Everyone can look at it in their own way though. But if you're fine and happy (as I am) with Triela showing her love, then I don't see why Petra showing it and having it returned should bother anyone? It's actually a bit hypocritical.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that Alessandro and Petras current relationship more or less mirrors his past one with what's her name (I forget names sorry, heh).

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