Treason and the Cyborgs

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Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Odon on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 5:04

Given the "fratello-on-the-run" fanfics (and the video game) out there I was wondering how a cyborg would react to a handler turning against the Agency. Would the more conditioned cyborgs be more or less likely to go along with this? There's also this scene...



...which makes me wonder what precautions the Agency has already taken. They must worry about the possibility of a handler defecting after all.

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 5:06

Kara bonds pretty hard to Michele, so she probably would follow him if he "cut and ran" from the Agency, even knowing it likely meant her own death (once the conditioning medication ran out).

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 6:11

As Pia's case indicates, a cyborg's loyalty lies first and foremost to her handler and not the Agency that employs him. Ernesto's treachery and Pia coming along with him implies that the Agency was ill-prepared for such an outcome at the time. Presumably, all cyborgs commissioned after the incident incorporate some sort of fail-safe, particularly the Gen 2's with their pre-programming. No idea if said fail-safe has been retroactively installed in any of Pia's peers/predecessors.

Personally, I'm not a fan of 'fratello on the run' fanfics, particularly those where the fratello in question do so out of romantic/moral reasons. The only such scenario I found attractive was Ernesto's betrayal, which was for reasons less than altruistic.

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Robert Frazer on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 6:23

I have to echo Nachtsider and say that I'm not too keen on fratello-on-the-run stories, either; seeing as GSG's unique slant is avoiding maudlin moping and showing the characters functioning - maybe even thriving - in their unusual environment, it seems to defeat the point of the enterprise.

As for the page that you posted, Odon, I think that it shows the essential differences between the first and second generation of cyborgs. The first generation are programmed to show absolute loyalty to their handlers - but if those handlers have feet of clay, the cyborgs wrapped around them fall with them, too. This was demonstrated with Elsa, who was broken by her handler's indifference, and Pia, who trotted off merrily after her handler even though she was fully aware that he was a Padanian sleeper agent who just wanted to have her opened on a dissection table. In response, the second generation was engineered to have their first loyalty to the Agency as an institution rather than their handler as an individual - so, if the handler does wobble, he can be dispensed with while still leaving the cyborg usable at the end of it all.

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Schaschanist on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 6:54

@Robert Frazer wrote:In response, the second generation was engineered to have their first loyalty to the Agency as an institution rather than their handler as an individual - so, if the handler does wobble, he can be dispensed with while still leaving the cyborg usable at the end of it all.
That would explain why Marco orders the unnamed 2nd gens in the 'new' chapters.
You know, the blond cyborg with the crossbow next to marco for example.

So you can use both with full 'use', the cyborg has an operator and the handler has a loyal tool.
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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by crazyidiot78 on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 7:15

With my cyborgs on the run story I went with the handlers ordering them to break away from the agency along with the conditioning breaking down. I figure this would get around any of the feelings of loyalty to the agency. They were also all generation 1 girls. I also wanted to do something a little more original mainly to see if it could be done seeing as most of the fanfic out there right now involves a lot of OCs. Hopefully i didn't muk it up to badly.
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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 7:28

As is my usual take on these things: I don't consider the conditioning to be an exact science.

Yes, I agree that the 2nd gens likely have more ridgid parameters regards their loyalty coming off the production line than the 1st gens. From there though I think that their personal loyalty is influenced by any number of factors including how their handler interacts with them and that relationship and so on. That said, if the handler ran and the cyborg followed, to my mind the base level conditioning would give her a fairly solid walloping.

As to the idea of a "failsafe"... it's something I've toyed with for my own story. Since Jethro is likely considered a higher security risk to the SWA than the average handler, I'm sure they'd uhh... like some insurance.

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 13:16

(Somewhere in Central Africa)

Jethro: "Why are you polishing your Golden Gun, Monty? The only threat within miles is a lame lion."

Monty: "You know me. Always like to be prepared."

Jethro: "And why is there an illumination flare and a smoke marker?"

Monty:' "Why don't you go to sleep? I'll take the first watch."

Jethro: "It's 16:30."

Monty: "Early to bed..." (reaching for the sat phone behind her back).

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 16:37

@Kiskaloo wrote:(Somewhere in Central Africa)

Jethro: "Why are you polishing your Golden Gun, Monty? The only threat within miles is a lame lion."

Monty: "You know me. Always like to be prepared."

Jethro: "And why is there an illumination flare and a smoke marker?"

Monty:' "Why don't you go to sleep? I'll take the first watch."

Jethro: "It's 16:30."

Monty: "Early to bed..." (reaching for the sat phone behind her back).
I think that if Monty does have a failsafe, it'd be buried very, very deep in her psyche. She wouldn't even know it was there till activated.

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 16:41

@Alfisti wrote:I think that if Monty does have a failsafe, it'd be buried very, very deep in her psyche. She wouldn't even know it was there till activated.

I'd be inclined to believe she (and the others girls) wouldn't know it's there even after it's been activated. You wouldn't want them to terminate their handler in such a state and then "snap out of it", only to go catatonic or insane at the sight of their dead handler.

I could see it as something like they "switch over", perform their deed, and then start a pre-programmed "recovery mission" to return to an SWA-controlled facility ASAP. Once safely secured, the doctors would probably then debrief them while in this mode and then wipe their memories.

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Professor Voodoo on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 16:43

Chiming in with another idle opinion;

I think the conditioning medication itself is the failsafe. If a fratello were to go on the run they'd be cut off from hospital support and without her pills a cyborg would begin breaking down fast...eventually winding up in a coma or dead.

This is the same plot device the late Michael Crichton used in the first Jurassic Park book. The artificial dinosaurs lacked the gene necessary to produce a certain amino acid, so their diets had to be supplemented. If one ever escaped the island they'd die of lysine deficiency within a few hours. Needless to say, that plan fails, so a clever fanfic writer could certainly find a way around the lack of cyborg conditioning meds.

I'll join the crowd that admit they cringe at cyborg vs. Agency stories (in my opinion the Agency is the girls' home & community...not an oppressor) but if a fratello did go on the run my Elio & Mari would most likely be in the possee tracking them down.

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 17:01

@Alfisti wrote:As to the idea of a "failsafe"... it's something I've toyed with for my own story. Since Jethro is likely considered a higher security risk to the SWA than the average handler, I'm sure they'd uhh... like some insurance.
First, agreeing with Natch, the "Fratelolo on the Run" Games series answers the question for the First Gens. They are programmed to love their handlers and to follow him no matter where he goes or what he does. They will follow him to the ends of the earth if he so wishes it. Hence with Ernesto, the agency got caught with their pants down, ass checks lubed and got reared by Dildo-Matic 3000 with #3Grit Sandpaper condom.

As for my own OCs, seeing that this was a major problem, Fernando studied up on who their conditioning and programming was done and hacked it, breaking the program from his girls: Rachel and Francesca. Since then they follow his orders willingly as they so please because to them his happiness come first; and this is without conditioning or programming altering their moods. Fernando is considered as a very high risk because Rachel is considered as his child and as such, the Italian Governemt has been told by the US Government, when Fernando leaves, Rachel goes with him. Compounding to the problem is Francesca, she is so emanored for him that what ever he orders, she does blindly. This love comes partly from 1) the crush she once had on her original handler which has been transplanted to him (enduced by experiemental conditioning drugs then because Fernando and Felix could almost pass off as Time-Separated Twins) and 2) her rescue by him which leads to her reconstruction, Francesca believes that she owes her life to him and would do anything for him. 2a) because of her reconstruction and eventual reprogramming, part of her memories and cognative abilities has been lost. Whether it is temporary or pernment remains to be seen; but she is still a very capable cyborg terminator. She is just a ditz at times and one that is in love with her handler.

In my SWA: Diclonous End Game, Fernando has gotten fed up with the agency constantly lying to him and thus he made them pay through the nose- he ran out of Italy and took his cyborgs (and staff: Juanita), along with personal items, with him. In that branch of my OC universe, they are never to return to the SWA. Currently in that story, the girls are sunning themselves in their Bikinis in Bermuda while Fernando is making sure that they wont be harrassed during their freedom and amassing amounts of the re-forumalted medication by his doctors in NYC (see: Solution's Resolution..).

@Professor Voodoo wrote:I'll join the crowd that admit they cringe at cyborg vs. Agency stories (in my opinion the Agency is the girls' home & community...not an oppressor) but if a fratello did go on the run my Elio & Mari would most likely be in the possee tracking them down.
Bring It Oonnn!


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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 17:03

@Professor Voodoo wrote:I think the conditioning medication itself is the failsafe. If a fratello were to go on the run they'd be cut off from hospital support and without her pills a cyborg would begin breaking down fast...eventually winding up in a coma or dead.
I think that depends on how you define "on the run". If it was a case of handler and cyborg running away together to eat tea and cookies then it would be a failsafe. However, if the handler's only intention is to say, steal cybernetic technology, then keeping the cyborg alive and happy is a secondary concern. Sure a live cyborg would be a better study subject, but even their components would be worth a fortune if you could commercialise faster than the Italian government, let alone the incentives for a foreign power to run its own cyborg program.

Hell, in that situation, the cold-hearted but logical thing to do would be to take as much conditioning medication as possible with you but hang onto it to be reverse-engineered rather than giving it to the kid. Definately not a nice way to go about things, but probably risks the Agency would want to consider. Sometimes it's best to work on the grounds of maximum paranoia and the assumption that everyone's a barstard. Razz

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by theprodigalson on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 17:11

Call me paranoid, but I was terrified during the big Triela/Hillshire arc that we were about to see a Fratello-on-the-run story. More recently, I saw events putting the pair on the run only to be hunted by a drone named Henrietta. I know, I should have more faith in Yu, but it was so frightening I couldn't help but be afraid.
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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Awinnell on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 17:15

implant a remote bomb,problem solved

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by theprodigalson on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 17:30

@Awinnell wrote:implant a remote bomb,problem solved

Around this compound? Too Risky:

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Marisa:*Pressing another button on the hidden switchboard.*I know one of these opens up his hidden weapons cache! Maybe this on...

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 17:36

@Awinnell wrote:implant a remote bomb,problem solved
Nice try, but no. If that were the case, the Agency would be running the extreme risk of their cyborgs blowing up every time they suffered battle damage.

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Awinnell on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 17:44

poison or acid then ?

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 17:49

Poison would make much, much more sense - a system that would flood their circulation with potassium chloride, or some other such toxic substance. Or perhaps something that would cause the cybernetics to immediately go into system failure.

It goes without saying that the Agency would have to immediately retrieve any rogue cyborgs they remotely terminate. To do that, the cyborg must have some sort of inbuilt tracking device; I'm firmly convinced this is so.

@Robert Frazer wrote:I have to echo Nachtsider and say that I'm not too keen on fratello-on-the-run stories, either; seeing as GSG's unique slant is avoiding maudlin moping and showing the characters functioning - maybe even thriving - in their unusual environment, it seems to defeat the point of the enterprise.
Part of GSG's unique beauty is that the Agency is immoral, and that its immorality is utterly irrelevant. Life just goes on for its personnel, who are well cared for and (for the most part) content with their jobs. Having fratello teams going rogue for emotional/altruistic reasons, is, in my eyes, akin to spoiling something great and one-of-a-kind with a tired cliche.

@Professor Voodoo wrote:If a fratello were to go on the run they'd be cut off from hospital support and without her pills a cyborg would begin breaking down fast...eventually winding up in a coma or dead.
The fact that nearly everyone who's written a 'fratello on the run' story ignores this simple fact is one of the reasons I turn up my nose at such tales.

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 18:09

@Nachtsider wrote:Part of GSG's unique beauty is that the Agency is immoral, and that its immorality is utterly irrelevant. Life just goes on for its personnel, who are well cared for and (for the most part) content with their jobs. Having fratello teams going rogue for emotional/altruistic reasons, is, in my eyes, akin to spoiling something great and one-of-a-kind with a tired cliche.
Amen. One of the great attractions I find in the series is that there's really no black and white in it... just infinate shades of grey.

That said... the technical discussion is an interesting one.

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by crazyidiot78 on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 19:02

Ouch 50 Lashes!
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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Awinnell on Wed 6 Apr 2011 - 19:23

the girls aren't seen as people by the government,they are a weapons system,use it, test it ,learn how to mass produce it and throw it away once it's used up,

of course at a local level its harder to feel that way, a favourite gun, for example, doesn't bleed all over your car or need to go to the little girls room,

but both can be used for offense and defense,both can be repaired if damaged,think of the cyborgs as slow cruise missiles,you take them to a launch point, aim them at a target and they figure out how to get there,and most missiles have a kill switch if they get off course or control

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by theprodigalson on Thu 7 Apr 2011 - 0:29

@crazyidiot78 wrote:Ouch 50 Lashes!

You can't write for everyone, CI.

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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by tremec6speed on Thu 7 Apr 2011 - 2:17

I like 'cyborg/handler on the run'!
(sing it McCartney!) Razz
SWA might learn from OCP
(Omni Consumer Products)
What kept Alex Murphy (aka Robocop)

in line was 'Directive #4'
Wiki: 'The fourth directive, which he was programmed to be unaware of unless it became relevant, rendered him physically incapable of placing any senior OCP employee under arrest: "any attempt to arrest a senior OCP employee results in shutdown". Senior President Richard "Dick" Jones stated that Directive 4 was his contribution to RoboCop's psychological profile. Jones informed RoboCop that he was an OCP product and not an ordinary police officer. As a result, RoboCop was unable to act against the corrupt Jones until the chairman of OCP verbally terminated Jones's employment with the company, allowing RoboCop to act against him.'
Had the SWA thought in advance Lauro and deSica would still be part of force and Pia and Ernesto would stay put as well, with the handler having to lie to his charge lest her programing kick in.


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Re: Treason and the Cyborgs

Post by Danjo3 on Thu 7 Apr 2011 - 3:51

@Nachtsider wrote: Having fratello teams going rogue for emotional/altruistic reasons, is, in my eyes, akin to spoiling something great and one-of-a-kind with a tired cliche.
I agree, but itís not hard to see where some people just want to see one of the girls fly free of her cage. The persecuted rebel on the run. Itís something that we Americans in particular tend to be drawn to. But as for me, the rouge fratello is not really my cup of tea either.

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