Henrietta's age @ time of death

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Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by 9by9teen on Tue 4 Oct 2011 - 13:43

Since I've been (still) mourning about the untimely deaths of my favorite Fratello, does anybody know Etta's age before she took a 5.7mm round in the eye?
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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 4 Oct 2011 - 13:55

About eleven physically; chronologically she would've been somewhere in her mid-teens.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Professor Voodoo on Tue 4 Oct 2011 - 14:00

You've touched on one of the ongoing debates of this forum: Do cyborgs age in any way?

Personally I believe the answer is no. 'Etta was 10 or 11 when she was converted...she was a cyborg for 3-4 years and she was 10 or 11 when she died. No aging, physical or mental occured. Certain biological parts of her body had certainly been alive for 13 to 15 years but the Agency stunted their growth so you really can't say she got "older."

Others disagree, I'll leave it to them to explain their position.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 4 Oct 2011 - 18:11

I think most of us agree that no physical aging on the part of the cyborgs takes place, Voodoo, but this is the first time I see someone also propose that no mental aging takes place, either. Care to explain, man? Just curious.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Professor Voodoo on Tue 4 Oct 2011 - 18:53

Nachtsider wrote: but this is the first time I see someone also propose that no mental aging takes place, either. Care to explain, man? Just curious.
Henrietta & Rico...who have both been cyborgs for at least 3 years...still act like 10 and 11 year olds. They do not behave like teenagers trapped in small bodies. Even Triela, who shows the most character development of any of the cyborgs is still acting like an angsty 14 year old during her last big plot arc (Christmas in Naples).

There's an interesting article about development of teenaged brains in this month's National Geographic (Oct. 2011). To summerize; mental maturation is not just about gaining experience, there are very real physical changes which occur within the brain. Insulation of frequently used pathways, "pruning" of unused synapses...as we get older these changes make the brain faster and more efficient but we lose flexability.

Returning to fiction; the very reason the Agency uses children as cybernetic test subjects is the adaptability of their brain matter...its ability to accept the technology where adult brains would reject. It stands to reason (at least in my opinion) that one of the functions of conditioning is to inhibit brain growth and development, keeping the subject alive and usable but unfortunately limiting their life span.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 4 Oct 2011 - 20:17

Professor Voodoo wrote:...

I like this.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 4 Oct 2011 - 22:03

Using Triela's Teddybears as a marker of time spent in the SWA up to that point in the beginning V1, there has been at least 7 years spent since Triela woke up and began her Gunslinger Girl career. Angie, months if not a year, before. We can argue 3 years in the series' run with at least 2 Christmases passing. So it makes 10 years since the beginning.

Kisk once wrote a timeline in which the cyborgs were created, and it was argued, prodded, dissected, but it was logical in flow. Most of the time, it was argued that the order in which the cyborgs were created. I propose, that it was not years in which the cyborgs were created, looking at it now, I believe it was 3 years or less for the original 10 to be created. If true, this would put Henrietta in 7 of those 10 years she was at the SWA.

Finding her cyborg age, the next step is to figure out at what age she was converted. Some say 10, others 9 or 11. I believe 8, though Yu Aida drew her as young as 6 (in his Pre2000 series) and as old as 12.

8 plus 7; 15.

Now Voodoo, I agree with the article, but I dont agree with your findings. The girls do age. Careful study of the series shows that the girls grew from V1 to V7, by looking at the height of the girls (Rico and Henrietta) with their handlers. That shows that something happened and they "grew" Same with Angie, who was converted at a very young age to some one at about 11 - 12 years of age. Triela grew out, as in from a skinny flat chested thing to a girl who just puberty with slightly larger hips and budding breasts. And lt me not talk about Claes- who was knee-high to a grasshopper when Raballo had her to one who is more developed and nearly the same height s Petra! Whether Yu did this subconsciously, accidentally or not, it was done remains to be seen, but according to the art evidence, they did. How? One with replaced limbs and carbon fiber bones can not grow! But they can be adjusted. They do this in real world medicine with growing teens with bone implants.

The argument against growing also applies to the brain and Angelica. The brain grows to 80% of adult size from age 2 to age 8. It continues to grow to 95% from age 8 to age 15. The remaining 5% happens from there to age 18 - 21. If Angie was converted at 7, her brain and skull is still growing no matter what doctors do to it. And from 8 to 15, it is still growing though at a slower rate than before. This is where they become more intelligent through learning, motor skills become exact and thinking/reasoning abilities become razor sharp and exact with information and experience. If the brain is frozen from growing, then they can not learn, reason, or do as they did. Their mental, emotional, intellectual, and motor skills would be stuck at the age they were converted. They would never remember, they would never learn.

I see that they did grow up, though at a slower rate than everybody else of their normal ages. If Triela was taken as a 10 - 12 year old, adding the 7 + 3 years spent, she would have been around 20 actually, 14 - 15 physically, and 16 emotionally. Taken younger, and had less time, Henrietta would be 15 actually, 12 - 13 physically, 13 emotionally.


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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 4 Oct 2011 - 22:14

I personally don't believe Triela has been there 10 years as she appears to receive bears as a general present, so she gets more than one per year.

The first anime says Rico was there two years, but Yu Aida didn't write the screenplays. The manga implies she'd been there a year. The manga likely runs about two years (it starts close to Christmas, proceeds through another Christmas, and is now winding down in yet another winter), so that would put Henrietta and Rico anywhere from three to four years with the Agency.

In Venice, Silvia states she had been a cyborg for three years. That would give her about two years on Henrietta and Rico at the time. Figure Angelica and Triela were a year or two before that, if we assume Triela was the next one converted after Angelica. And as Triela could have spent up to a year at the SWA before they converted her, she might have been converted after Silvia. Though we see Triela on a bed next to Angelica, there is no context as to when that took place, so they might have both been in for a medical examination after being put into the field. That being said, Triela is shown in the panel where they talk about the cyborgs being sent out on their first missions, so she might have been the first cyborg put into the field.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 1:38

Elfen, I think we can chalk the apparent physical growth down to idiosyncrasies in the art.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Odon on Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 2:26

Or the cyborgs' bodies have mission-adjustable height parameters. Smile

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Alfisti on Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 5:56

Nachtsider wrote:Elfen, I think we can chalk the apparent physical growth down to idiosyncrasies in the art.
Pretty much this... Yu's been drawing GSG for what, about a decade now? His style is bound to have changed during that period, as is the way he draws the girls and so on.

I think I tend to land in the middle ground somewhere regards cyborg aging: my take is that the girl's don't physically age, they're stuck wherever they were converted, with that I'd picture things like hormones also being locked at that age. However, I think they can accrue experience and life knowledge... so their view of the world can change and perhaps mature.

That said: I'm no child psychologist and failed biology so...

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 6:03

Alfisti wrote:I think I tend to land in the middle ground somewhere regards cyborg aging: my take is that the girl's don't physically age, they're stuck wherever they were converted, with that I'd picture things like hormones also being locked at that age. However, I think they can accrue experience and life knowledge... so their view of the world can change and perhaps mature.
Yeah, this is what I subscribe to, as well. Voodoo's mention that the brain physically changes with mental maturation is interesting, and one I've never quite heard of previously (I nearly failed neuroscience, too, lol). It might very well apply. But his point about the girls apparently stunted behavioral maturation could just as well be alternatively explained as being a psychological product of their insular environment and not due to inhibited brain development.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 8:12

One physical change that happened over time was them becoming more moe.Smile

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 8:19

No kidding. I still can't get over what happened to Rico in Il Teatrino. Sweet candy apples; I'll see that drugged-out face in my dreams.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by 9by9teen on Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 13:20

Awesome input everyone - very enlightening. Regardless of age, these assasin cyborgs have shown more humanity than anybody else in this series. Whether it be the conditioning or not, Henrietta appreciated the simple joys of watching the night sky, putting extra sugar in her tea and even just a walk with Jose. If I can only appreciate life more like that. Maybe I need some cybernetic implants.
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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Professor Voodoo on Wed 5 Oct 2011 - 15:04

"ElfenMagix wrote: If the brain is frozen from growing, then they can not learn, reason, or do as they did. Their mental, emotional, intellectual, and motor skills would be stuck at the age they were converted. They would never remember, they would never learn.
I have to question that reasoning; are you implying that the brain must increase in size to facilitate learning?
Alfisti wrote: I think they can accrue experience and life knowledge... so their view of the world can change and perhaps mature.
To an extent I'm sure, but any of this is somewhat diminished by the cyborgs' unreliable memories.

Nachtsider wrote:the girls apparently stunted behavioral maturation could just as well be alternatively explained as being a psychological product of their insular environment and not due to inhibited brain development.
That's entirely possible too...either way the end result remains; Henrietta & the others remain behaviorally locked in at the ages where they were converted.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Odon on Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 8:41

9by9teen wrote:Awesome input everyone - very enlightening. Regardless of age, these assasin cyborgs have shown more humanity than anybody else in this series. Whether it be the conditioning or not, Henrietta appreciated the simple joys of watching the night sky, putting extra sugar in her tea and even just a walk with Jose. If I can only appreciate life more like that. Maybe I need some cybernetic implants.

Once the Agency succeeds in commercialising the comditioning process you too will be able to appreciate life's tiny joys in a state of blissed-out selective sociopathy.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by crazyidiot78 on Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 10:33

I happen to agree with Voodoo on this one. The conditioning does stunt their growth both mental and physical as there are neurobiological changes that occur through puberty despite the fact that the total brain volume is done growing by that time. It is the interconnections between the cells that change. I would like to think that instead of the conditioning completely stunting their growth it severely retards the growth and development. This would allow for some growth to occur and plays in with the limited lifespan, as they will eventually grow out of the process that made them cyborgs leading to their deaths. This would allow for the limited physical changes seen over the course of the series.
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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 21:47

Except for one thing: The shorter you are, the longer you live. That's why midgets tend to live past 100 if they are not killed by accident, violence or disease. This is more so if one is female, which this posting audience thus far is not. Dont believe me? Go to a Nursing home and see what size group is in what age group - Octogenarians and Centurions in nursing homes tend to be under 5ft 3in and female. Thus stopping a cyborg from growing does not kill it.

The Conditioning Medication, since the beginning of the series, has been the culprit to a cyborg's short life. The surgeon in V1 operating on Henrietta stated so. Its what killed Angie in the end.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 22:04

ElfenMagix wrote:Except for one thing: The shorter you are, the longer you live. That's why midgets tend to live past 100 if they are not killed by accident, violence or disease.
I don't know about that, man. Loads of health problems come with being a little person. My experience tells me that they generally don't live as long as a regular person.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 22:17

Also... since when is anybody claiming that preventing the girls from growing is what kills them? I thought we're all in agreement that it's the meds that are lethal.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by Professor Voodoo on Thu 6 Oct 2011 - 22:37

ElfenMagix wrote:That's why midgets tend to live past 100 if they are not killed by accident, violence or disease.
Octogenarians and Centurions in nursing homes tend to be under 5ft 3in and female.
I dare say that has more to do with progressive bone loss due to osteoporosis.

I don't think it was ever implied that stopping brain growth was what eventually kills a cyborg...more like a combination of the stress of handing extreme sensory inputs, the toxic nature of the conditioning meds and interruption of natural metabolic processes.



In Chapter 46 Marinana says something that suggests there is a correlation with Alzheimer's...which is caused by loss of neurons and synapes in the cerebral cortex and certain sub-cortexes. It's unclear whether she's pointing out a similarity or a difference though.

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Re: Henrietta's age @ time of death

Post by imksoon on Fri 14 Oct 2011 - 2:36

wow great arguments you guys posted! cool
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